Joagbaje:

Can you just honestly answer one question?
If the disciples were born again before the blood of Jesus was shed to reconcile men, of what need is the death burial and resurrection of christ?

Joagbaje:

I don't understand your point.

Joagbaje:

No man was born again before the blood of Jesus was shed period!

aletheia:


You wouldn't! Study again God's promise to Abraham
Was the blood of Jesus of effect only from circa 33 AD onwards or was it of effect from the beginning? Do you think the redeeming power of Jesus is limited in time? If Abraham was not "born again", why are Christians called children of Abraham?

Joagbaje:

The old testament folks are born again. I'm sure we had an agreement on that issue before. They got born again at the resurrection of christ. No man got recreated before Jesus rose from the dead. It is an insult to the blood on Calvary.

Enigma:

Just for the records: the "Jesus died spiritully" statement is another heresy of the WoF people. Anyone interested should google 'Jesus died spiritually' or 'Jesus died spirtually heresy' and see how far some of the WoF people go with it! For example, some of them say that Jesus was tortured in hell by satan and demons as part of Him dying "spiritually".

OLAADEGBU:


I took this challenge to google up what the WoF movement teach about this "Jesus died spiritually" doctrine and I was shocked at what came up.  Is it true that they believe that Jesus took upon the nature of satan and was tormented in hellfire before God the Father had to come and rescue Him and then recreate His spirit?  Is that why they call Him the first person to be born again?  God have mercy. 

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/word-faith2.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_of_Faith

OLAADEGBU:

I took this challenge to google up what the WoF movement teach about this "Jesus died spiritually" doctrine and I was shocked at what came up. 

To be born again is thesame as receiving eternal life of God in our spirit . This eternal life is a life we recieve instantly we got born again.

sin doesn't separate us from the life and the love of God. So long as the person still lives God

a man commits sins because of his immaturity. if he sins and realise it,all he need do is to repent of it and come out of such errors.

If your child  brakes your plate, he does not cease to be you child because he did wrong. Eternal life does not switch off and on.

I can remember ahithiopel and judas ( law of double reference)

They believed in christ but their spirit had not been recreated, they saw jesus in the light of a political messiah.

We must remember that there was no remission without the shedding if the blood  It is a big error to say that men were reconciled to God without the shedding of the blood of Jesus.

the new creation was created in christ when he was resurrected. His resurrection gave birth to the new creation.

They had a form of godliness but their worship was In the flesh before Jesus died. The true worshippers came on the scene after resurrection

The question is when did the apostle get born again , the answer is, they got saved after the death of christ .

If you claim they were born again , what did Jesus die for? Was there any need for Jesus to die again?

So what did Jesus die for.

newmi:

@ OLAADEGBU
l think you should answer them question Joagbje asked you: ifi them disciples were bornagain before Jesus died and resurrected then of what significance then is the shedding of the blood of Jesus to their them. thank you

OLAADEGBU:

You want me to answer one question, have you answered the question aletheia and others asked you about the blood of Jesus shed from the foundation of the world?

  Have you answered all the verses of the gospel that I have quoted that Jesus said about the disciples to buttress my point?  What was Peter's confession about the Person of Jesus Christ?  Answer all those and I will answer your one question.

Image123:

@Joagbaje
Thanks for answering the questions, its a good step in the right direction.(though i'm not sure you said what it means to be born again, but i'll pass)

being born again is the same as eternal life. what we're saying is that the above disagrees with your belief concerning the apostles. The apostles had eternal life, no doubt. Meaning, it is the same as them being born again. What are the pre-requisites for eternal life again? Amongst others, it's simply the below:

John 3:15  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 
John 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 

John 6:54  [color=#770077]Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Does this ring a bell?
Matthew 26:26  And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. 
Mat 26:27,28  And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 
  For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 

Dulcet7:

Hello Joagbaje. I don't believe this. Rather, they all got born again when they believed in the God that can single-handedly make people born-again.

l think you should answer them question Joagbje asked you: ifi them disciples were bornagain before Jesus died and resurrected then of what significance then is the shedding of the blood of Jesus to their them. thank you

why are you afraid to answer the question. Let's not try to win an argument. If i'm wrong , I will gladly admit and learn. Don't raise all these wof sentiments nonsense to dodge a question. I'm sure you guys are feeling boxed in. If not you should have answered .

Many professing christing lack understanding of righteousness in christ. If your foundation is faulty it will affect the entire structure. The truth is simple.

There was no physical blood shed from the foundation of the world. It was a prophetic utterance.

The operation of the holy spirit has been outward . Just like the Old Testament prophets . The holyspirit operation was not inward because Jesus had not been glorified .

Jesus didnt come into any person until his ascension . When a man receives Jesus , he receives the life in christ as well. Because the life is in christ.

John 3:15  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

All these scriptures are irrelevant to your claim, they were written after his resurection.

The communion was symbolic , that's drink was symbolic , but that was not the blood of the covenant

newmi:

@ OLAADEGBU
l think you should answer them question Joagbje asked you: i[b]fi them disciples were bornagain before Jesus died and resurrected then of what significance then is the shedding of the blood of Jesus to their them.[/b] thank you

InesQor:
OT Saints received salvation looking forward to Jesus' sacrifice the exact same way we receive salvation looking back to Jesus' sacrifice. God is not limited in time so they did not have to be without the salvation until Christ died. Yes, they were born again as much as any Christian is today. Our faith looks back as theirs looks forward.

@Joagbaje:
I beg to disagree, sir.

Being born of the Spirit means being Spirit-controlled even in the face of "normal human behaviour". See John 3:7-8 where Jesus compares it to the blowing wind. It is a walk of faith and reliance on God.

The only person in the Bible besides Jesus who spoke of being born again, is Peter in 1 Peter 1:23, and he clearly says that its the incorruptible word of God that makes one born again. Noah received this word of God by faith and it transformed his experience, as much as Saul of Tarsus did.  Thus both are as born again as each other.

The only difference in aspect is that the Spirit filled OT saints selectively, while for NT saints there is no partial selectivity across persons, times and purposes. They still have one thing in common though, the Spirit will not move against your faith in God and reliance on His Word.

InesQor:
From the very beginning to the end, Christ the Son of God, in whom dwells the fullness of the Godhead, has been, is, and will be present and remains the ONLY way to the Father. But even in the physical, Christ has always been there, and in many more revelations than as a man. He was the lamb slain from before the world's foundations.

In the OT, Christ was typified from the instance of the initial covering of the unclothedness of Adam and Eve, to Abel's pure sacrifice, to the ark of Noah's baptism, to the promise that Abraham received, etc etc into aspects of the law like the passover and atonement, the Rock of water, the Manna of heaven, the Serpent that was hung for healing, etc etc.

According to God's promise to avenge Eve (since satan got man down, a man had to conquer him in return), the last typification of Christ on earth was as a man, the man Jesus Christ. This man-clothed God referred to himself using these various typifications that earlier represented him in the Old Testament. But for that they sought to kill him. They never sought to abolish the passover for instance, or discredit Noah's ark, or say the manna was just a myth! This is the stubbornness of human hearts, because they saw him like them in the flesh. They never once realized Christ had always been there. Abraham rejoiced to see his day, before Abraham was, Christ is.

The very same faith with which Noah built an ark is the same faith with which one confesses Jesus Christ as Lord. Their reward of being "Born Again" is equal. Their salvation is equal. None is superior to the other.

For the same reason, I believe there may be people today who never heard of the man Jesus but are "Born again", i.e. Born from Above because God communicated Christ to them the same way he communicated Christ to Noah, Enoch, Abraham, David and other OT saints.

I believe it is wrong to claim a monopoly on the Christ for us just because we know him in the flesh. There are those who knew him in essence before His revelation in the flesh, and their faith was imputed unto them as righteousness. Just like yours was imputed too, when you got born again by faith in Christ become flesh.

Faith in Christ is what makes one born again.

InesQor:
As usual, I now present an analogy just because I like using them to explain my points.

---

A wealthy king travelled but before he did, he called his subjects and issued them IOU papers (I owe you) in the name of the King so that when he returns he can pay back on the IOUs. If he had been around, his seal would be necessary to get money from the treasury. So in his absence, the subjects continued their business ON THE FAITH that He would be true to His word and pay back all the IOUs when he gets back. They used his seal to get business done, even though they were looking FORWARD to the actual availability of the seal.

There was one limitation though, and that was the fact that according to your ability and your role in the King's court, your IOU was for a particular aspect of commerce and it was written in YOUR name. You could not be a kitchen worker and use the IOU to get shoes for your new wife. If the loving king was around, you could approach him and ask him for that even though you are a kitchen worker, and you will get it. In essence, the fullness of value was promisory in nature and there was no liberty of purpose. But then the King returned and he brought his Seal with him. Nobody had to use IOUs again, but now value was received by looking BACK at the arrival of the seal, the same way his subjects  that used IOUs looked forward to the arrival. None are better than the other, although the former ones worked with much less to obtain the very much same life.

The Seal is the Holy Spirit, the seal was available by proxy to the OT saints via IOUs issued while waiting for the King, Christ, to be born on earth. They looked forward as we look backwards but as Peter said, its the very same word of God that makes us Born Again.

SirJohn:

look at Joagbaje accusing someone of evading questions wonders shall never end

The Seal is the Holy Spirit, the seal was available by proxy to the OT saints via IOUs issued while waiting for the King, Christ, to be born on earth. They looked forward as we look backwards but as Peter said, its the very same word of God that makes us Born Again.

Joagbaje:

@inesqor

I'm wondering where to start from in this your last post. Let me just pick one point to explain all

Old testament folks look towards it , we look back to it right? Looking forward to what? And backward to what? TO THE CROSS! It was not the birth of Jesus that brought salvation. But his death on the cross . The blood had to be shed. Without the shedding of the blood there is no remission for sin.