Going over threads and listening to different arguments, I am moved to open this thread. Some believe that we still have to hold on to the law of Moses despite the new covenant, while some say this is not important because we have a new and better covenant.
So this thread is opened to interested parties to come and establish their believes according to the scriptures. This is not to argue but for we all to learn!

Pastor Olu T: Going over threads and listening to different arguments, I am moved to open this thread. Some believe that we still have to hold on to the law of Moses despite the new covenant, while some say this is not important because we have a new and better covenant.
So this thread is opened to interested parties to come and establish their believes according to the scriptures. This is not to argue but for we all to learn!

pastor how are you doing?

The old commandment is centered on animal sacrifice, eye for eye(meaning revenge or do me, I do u), central or one place worship of God(in a particular place).

The new commandment is based on Love, forgiveness, and worship of God in spirit and truth nor matter who u are and where u re.

The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully, then in the New testament, he became a diplomat. Why the sudden turnaround?

New testament introduced Christianity. Christ brought a new message, kinda like a better, upgraded version of the old laws. The Christian God suddenly realized that the people he created(which he already knew were going to hell) needed to be given a chance to share in his inheritance again. Hence the sacrifice of Christ
Most importantly, the new testament preached love. This new message led to the "moral civilization" we have in today's society.

Old testament is basically Judaism.

Note that you need the old testament to understand the new testament.

Emusan:

pastor how are you doing?

I am good my brother, and I believe u are too!
Would really appreciate ur input in this too 'cos of the controversies arising!

Let me do a quick summary;
God created man perfect but he was yet to be perfected (that is in his final state), so God placed him there. It happened that man sinned and had to leave the Garden so that he will not be perfected in his fallen state by eating the forbidden fruit. Hence the search for God began, because of the love of God for man He do not want Him to perish so He guides Him by different principles in different dispensations till His original plan be revealed.
Now during the dispensation of the law which is the old covenant, there were rituals and some laws that must b observed in order for man to be saved n kept till the original plan be revealed Galatians 3:21-4:1.
When Jesus came (the new covenant) the way to the father and His original plan was revealed, thus all the former was abolished Hebrews chapters 7-9. Now in Christ we walk by faith n not by sight or controlled by the elements of this world.
In that He says, 'A new covenant' He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete is ready to vanish away.
Hebrews 8:13
where does the law now come in, we need the law preachers to come state their case?

Pastor Olu T: Let me do a quick summary;
God created man perfect but he was yet to be perfected (that is in his final state), so God placed him there. It happened that man sinned and had to leave the Garden so that he will not be perfected in his fallen state by eating the forbidden fruit.

I stopped reading after this! What is this rubbish??

In Genesis 1:27 to 28,
27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

Skip to, 31
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

What scripture did God say or even insinuated that he wasn't done perfecting mankind?? What final state?? (Please back it up with scripture)
What was God's plan for creating man?? What was man's purpose on earth according to the Bible?? And pls what were the stages that mankind had to go through to become perfected?? Are you just pulling stuff out of your a*ss?

The Old Covenant vs. The New
Covenant

1.Jeremiah 31:31-34
Old Covenant – Moses as
Minister (2 Corinthians
3:13-15; John 1:17; Hebrews 3:5)
New Covenant - Jesus’
Disciples as Ministers (2
Corinthians 3:6; John
16:12-15)

2.Old Covenant - A Covenant of the Letter (2 Corinthians 3:6)
New Covenant - A Covenant
of the Spirit (2 Corinthians
3:6-

3.Old Covenant - A Covenant which Kills (2 Corinthians 3:6)
New Covenant - A Covenant which Gives Life (2 Corinthians 3:6 – literally “makes alive”)

4.Old Covenant - A Ministry of Death (2 Corinthians 3:7)
New Covenant - A Ministry of Life (2 Corinthians 3:6)

5.Old Covenant - A Ministry of Condemnation (2Corinthians 3:9)
New Covenant - A
Ministration of
Righteousness (2Corinthians 3:9)

6.Old Covenant - A Covenant Written with Ink (2Corinthians 3:3)
New Covenant - A Covenant Written with the Spirit of the
Living God ( 2 Corinthians 3:3)

7.Old Covenant - A Covenant Written on Stone (2Corinthians 3:3-7)
New Covenant - A Covenant Written on the Heart of Man
( 2 Corinthians 3:3; Jeremiah
31:33; Ezekiel 11:19-20;
36:26)

8.Old Covenant - A Covenant which came with Glory (2 Corinthians 3:7; Exodus 34:29-35)
New Covenant - A Covenant which came with the Greatest Glory ( 2 Corinthians 3:8-11)

9.Old Covenant - A Covenant whose Glory was Passing/Fading ( 2 Corinthians 3:7)
New Covenant - A Covenant whose Glory Continues to Shine ( 2 Corinthians 3:18)

10.Old Covenant - A Veiled or Covered Glory (2 Corinthians3:12-16)
New Covenant - An Unveiled,Ever-Increasing Glory (2Corinthians 3:18)

11.Old Covenant - A Covenant Destined to be Done Away (2Corinthians 3:11; Hebrews7:12, 8:13, 10:9)
New Covenant - A Covenant Destined to Last Forever (2Corinthians3:11; Hebrews13:20)

Wu Zetian:
I stopped reading after this! What is this rubbish??

In Genesis 1:27 to 28,
27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

Skip to, 31
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

What scripture did God say or even insinuated that he wasn't done perfecting mankind?? What final state?? (Please back it up with scripture)
What was God's plan for creating man?? What was man's purpose on earth according to the Bible?? And pls what were the stages that mankind had to go through to become perfected?? Are you just pulling stuff out of your a*ss?

Smiles, I dont have to sound sarcastic as you, all I would do is to set ur ignorance straight with the scriptures.
1. Man was naked when he was created (though covered by the glory of God) which shows that was not his final state Genesis 2:25.
2. There was two trees planted at the middle of the Garden for the transformation of man Genesis 2:9. If u are a student of the bible u would know we will partake of the tree of life in the dispensation of forever n ever Revelation 2:7.
3, There was another creation (Eve) Genesis 2:18-24
Among many others which shows that we are going to be perfected only at the end of all things.
God always choose to do things in process n no one can question Him for that.
NB Dont derail this thread, if u want us to discus this in detail u can open another thread for it?

Yooguyz: The Old Covenant vs. The New
Covenant

1.Jeremiah 31:31-34
Old Covenant – Moses as
Minister (2 Corinthians
3:13-15; John 1:17; Hebrews 3:5)
New Covenant - Jesus’
Disciples as Ministers (2
Corinthians 3:6; John
16:12-15)

2.Old Covenant - A Covenant of the Letter (2 Corinthians 3:6)
New Covenant - A Covenant
of the Spirit (2 Corinthians
3:6-

3.Old Covenant - A Covenant which Kills (2 Corinthians 3:6)
New Covenant - A Covenant which Gives Life (2 Corinthians 3:6 – literally “makes alive”)

4.Old Covenant - A Ministry of Death (2 Corinthians 3:7)
New Covenant - A Ministry of Life (2 Corinthians 3:6)

5.Old Covenant - A Ministry of Condemnation (2Corinthians 3:9)
New Covenant - A
Ministration of
Righteousness (2Corinthians 3:9)

6.Old Covenant - A Covenant Written with Ink (2Corinthians 3:3)
New Covenant - A Covenant Written with the Spirit of the
Living God ( 2 Corinthians 3:3)

7.Old Covenant - A Covenant Written on Stone (2Corinthians 3:3-7)
New Covenant - A Covenant Written on the Heart of Man
( 2 Corinthians 3:3; Jeremiah
31:33; Ezekiel 11:19-20;
36:26)

8.Old Covenant - A Covenant which came with Glory (2 Corinthians 3:7; Exodus 34:29-35)
New Covenant - A Covenant which came with the Greatest Glory ( 2 Corinthians 3:8-11)

9.Old Covenant - A Covenant whose Glory was Passing/Fading ( 2 Corinthians 3:7)
New Covenant - A Covenant whose Glory Continues to Shine ( 2 Corinthians 3:18)

10.Old Covenant - A Veiled or Covered Glory (2 Corinthians3:12-16)
New Covenant - An Unveiled,Ever-Increasing Glory (2Corinthians 3:18)

11.Old Covenant - A Covenant Destined to be Done Away (2Corinthians 3:11; Hebrews7:12, 8:13, 10:9)
New Covenant - A Covenant Destined to Last Forever (2Corinthians3:11; Hebrews13:20)

Right on

As a 100-percent, absolute grace, new testament christian, I understand that the Laws of Moses and it's definitions of right and wrong have been absolutely abolished. The new testament and old cannot co-exist in one dispensation. The old testament is absolutely dead(through the death of Jesus) and the life that I live now is due to the new testament. The differences between the two are simple and are as follows:

God have created all things and declared them to be good and fit for use by man for his education, creation, pleasure and profit. Man is not a sinner by whatsoever he decides to use and enjoy, whether they be clothes, food, drink, sex, knowledge, etc. God has absolutely sanctified everything that he created. Therefore there is no evil/sin in nature.

The law(knowledge) of good and evil (aka: the law of Moses; the Law of sin and death) on the other hand does bot agree that there is absolute goodness in all that God has created, it declares some good and others evil and forbids us from using them, making us sinners both in conscience and in action. This is contrary to God's definitions, thus whoever follows or agrees with the definitions of the Laws of Moses is a sinner.

okeyxyz: As a 100-percent, absolute grace, new testament christian, I understand that the Laws of Moses and it's definitions of right and wrong have been absolutely abolished. The new testament and old cannot co-exist in one dispensation. The old testament is absolutely dead(through the death of Jesus) and the life that I live now is due to the new testament. The differences between the two are simple and are as follows:

God have created all things and declared them to be good and fit for use by man for his education, creation, pleasure and profit. Man is not a sinner by whatsoever he decides to use and enjoy, whether they be clothes, food, drink, sex, knowledge, etc. God has absolutely sanctified everything that he created. Therefore there is no evil/sin in nature.

The law(knowledge) of good and evil (aka: the law of Moses; the Law of sin and death) on the other hand does bot agree that there is absolute goodness in all that God has created, it declares some good and others evil and forbids us from using them, making us sinners both in conscience and in action. This is contrary to God's definitions, thus whoever follows or agrees with the definitions of the Laws of Moses is a sinner.

wo wo wo, slow down, I need to get something straight, pls kindly explain what u meant about man can enjoy whatever he pleases be it s*ex, etc so I dont misquote u.
The reason I am asking is 'cos someone once told me (now a pastor) that he can kill someone n not sin 'cos he is under grace

Pastor Olu T:
wo wo wo, slow down, I need to get something straight, pls kindly explain what u meant about man can enjoy whatever he pleases be it s*ex, etc so I dont misquote u.
The reason I am asking is 'cos someone once told me (now a pastor) that he can kill someone n not sin 'cos he is under grace

I mean Precisely what I wrote. Sex is a nature and gift of God, to be enjoyed by all who understand and practice grace. It is the Law of Moses that declares marriage as the only condition for sex. With God, sex is free for them who understand.

Hebrews 9:13-17
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

The Old Convenant took effect on the Israelites ONLY AFTER the sacrifice of blood. But before the convenant took effect God had to give His laws, statutes and judgements (ordinances) FIRST. The blood of the bulls and sheep simply SEALED the bond.

But because the people could not fulfil their part and infact did so much evil, God has to send His Son Jesus Christ to avert the imminent curse on the earth.
Malachi 4:5-6
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

And the word of God in Malachi was fulfilled below when Jesus was speaking of John the Baptist:
Matthew 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

And Jesus finally came after John (Elijah) came to prepare the way. THE WORD OF GOD BECAME FLESH.
John 1:14,17
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) FULL OF GRACE AND TRUTH
17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished IN HIS FLESH the ENMITY, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances ; for to make[b] in himself of twain one new man, so making peace[/b]

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, AND took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross

It was while Jesus was IN THE FLESH that He abolished the law of commandments CONTAINED in ordinances (Exodus chapter 21-24)that was causing enmity between Jews and Gentiles....Read the story of the Samaritan woman for example in John 4, and the commission to take the gospel to the end of the earth (totally different from just Israel alone). Also read Matthew 5 and see where He was abolishing the judgements for going against those ordinances. e.g. Eye for eye etc. It was at His death that he TOTALLY TOOK IT OUT OF THE WAY by nailing it to the cross being a sacrifice for sins.
That is why scriptures says: Jesus is the end of the law FOR righteousness to them that believe (Romans 10:4) because the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us when we walk in the Spirit (Romans 8:3-4) and you believe in Christ by believing His words (John 5:24) as well as the finished work on the cross. (John 19:30)

Why? Because all Jesus did and said while He was IN THE Flesh was THE TESTAMENT (THE TRUTH AND GRACE) which was only SEALED at His death by BLOOD. Hence the NEW CONVENANT!

Matthew 26:28 for this is my blood, which confirms the covenant between God and his people. It is poured out as a sacrifice to forgive the sins of many

So all Jesus SAID and DID while on earth was not for show, He was writing the FULFILLING THE LAW and delivering a testament for His blood sealed it and He became our High Priest. This was confirmation of God speaking in:

Deuteronomy 18:15-19
15 The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
16 According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17 And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him



At what point was the law and the prophets fully transfigured in Jesus testament? You guess right! At the mount of transfiguration!
The law was represented by Moses....He had died earlier. John had to die since he was taken away in a chariot of fire earlier in the form of Elijah.
And that is what we see here:

Luke 16:16
The law and the prophets were until John : since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Matthew 17:1-5
1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Moses was the law mediator, Elijah (that came as John) stood in for the prophets in this context. John had been killed in Matthew 14 at the request of Herodias (Elijah ran from Jezebel....coincidence?). Before God's focus was on Israel, now every man can press into it because of Jesus so even if the original owners do not believe, the gentile will press in and enjoy the blessing of Abraham.

But besides that if you read the baptism of Jesus in Matthew 3:17, God stopped at 'This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased', After the transfiguration God again made the statement and added....HEAR YE HIM. The law and the prophets got metamorphosed in Jesus and that is why no one can come to the Father except through the Son, JESUS CHRIST.

Paul further confirmed the importance of the words of Jesus in:
I Timothy 6:3-4
3 Some people may contradict our teaching, but these are the wholesome teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. These teachings promote a godly life.
4 Anyone who teaches something different is arrogant and lacks understanding. Such a person has an unhealthy desire to quibble over the meaning of words. This stirs up arguments ending in jealousy, division, slander, and evil suspicions.

Thank God for the truth and grace of Jesus Christ.

Sorry for this very long post. This is what I got by revelation.
Thank you.

When looking into the OT, We must be careful about covenants which God had made to be everlasting, God never changes such covenants.Some of our NT brothers who don't read the OT in its proper context are guilty of that for example the Abrahamic covenant is a synergy between the old and the new.

Genesis 6:18 But with you will I establish my covenant; and you shall come into the ark, you, and your sons, and your wife, and your sons' wives with you.
9:8 And God spoke to Noah, and to his sons with him, saying,
9:9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;
9:10 And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.
9:11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
9:12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
9:13 I set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
9:14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:
9:15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.
9:16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.

Genesis 17:1 And when Abram was ninety nine years old, Yahweh appeared to Abram, and said to him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be perfect.
17:2 And I will make my covenant between me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.
17:3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
17:4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations.
17:5 Neither shall your name any more be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made you.
17:6 And I will make you exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come out of you.
17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your seed after you in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God to you, and to your seed after you.

Leviticus 2:13 And every oblation of your meat offering shall you season with salt; neither shall you suffer the salt of the covenant of your God to be lacking from your meat offering: with all your offerings you shall offer salt.
24:8 Every Sabbath he shall set it in order before Yahweh continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant.
26:9 For I will have respect to you, and make you fruitful, and multiply you, and establish my covenant with you.

Covenant is called Testament in the NT.

Luke 1:72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
1:73 The oath which he swore to our father Abraham,
1:74 That he would grant to us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
1:75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who sometimes were far off are made near by the blood of Christ.

Galatians 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it is but a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no man disannuls, or adds to it.
3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He does not say, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to your seed, which is Christ.
3:17[b] And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of no effect.[/b]

Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertains the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
11:27 For this is my covenant to them, when I shall take away their sins.


heb13:20 Now the God of peace, who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there was lightning, and voices, and thundering, and an earthquake, and great hail.

It would do us a whole lot of good to read the whole bible and get a full picture of God and His covenants and not just pick a writers verse and build a doctrine out of it.Cheers.

@Bidam,
Thanks for the expose on all the convenants. I think in this regard, the convenant of blood is the major one being looked at. Here talks about the blood to seal the Testament, blood for atonement and purification and blood oath whose reneging means death.
Those convenants you mentioned apart from the one between God and Israelites and the one in Jesus Christ did not have the penalty of death.

Note:The New Covenant is better than the old one, and supersedes it

HEBREWS 7:22
22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better covenant.


HEBREWS 8:6-7,13
6 But now he has obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if the first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
13 In that he says, A new covenant, he has made the first old. Now that which decays and grows old is ready to vanish away

But also NOTE:Many people have discarded much of the Old Testament in modern times, giving more weight to the New Testament scriptures. While this is an understandable attitude, because the New Testament reveals the New Covenant, and supersedes the Old Covenant, it is not a correct thing to do.

The New testament declares that, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine." (2 Timothy 3:16). Therefore when we try to understand true doctrine, the Old Testament and New Testament should be studied together, looking to harmonize some of the apparent differences. This is a bible study showing that all scripture is profitable for doctrine, including the Old Testament, which was the only bible for the New Testament church for at least 20 years after the death of Jesus, so they did not have the same attitude as modern Christians.

Pastor Olu T:
I am good my brother, and I believe u are too!
Would really appreciate ur input in this too 'cos of the controversies arising!

Yes; by His grace!
Actually in comparison of Old Covenant and the New Covenant people usually mixed them up. why? because BIBLE was divided into two. Testament/Covenant are the same thing but the whole OT was not centered on Covenant as the name implies; Rather it contains both chronological event of creations, the fall of man, the chosen one, prophecies, laws e.t.c but today what we see is people relating all the written of the OT to LAW (though the OT sometimes refers to as LAW). Apostle Paul said something (I couldn't remember the verse again maybe later) that "the LAW was added for the PROMISE to come".

The question now is; how can we seperate law(s) from other message(s)? what are the importance or purpose of the rest of the message(s)?

The OT have been categorized into four groups namely;
The Torah-The first five books of the Old Testament
The History books-The next 12 books
The Poetical books or, simply, the Writings-The five books that follow the history books
The Prophets--The final 17 books of the Old Testament

Here, the LAW only falls into the category of "Torah & Historical Event" and God purposely added it for the promise to come according to Paul's statement. Then, the poetical & Prophetic Books has something to add to the whole scriptures, meaning their not laws but corrections on the part of people and the next plan of God toward man

I believe by the time we christian begin to view Bible this way then we'll be able to understand the real message the Bible is passing to us.

Shalom!

Alwaystrue: @Bidam,
Thanks for the expose on all the convenants. I think in this regard, the convenant of blood is the major one being looked at. Here talks about the blood to seal the Testament, blood for atonement and purification and blood oath whose reneging means death.
Those convenants you mentioned apart from the one between God and Israelites and the one in Jesus Christ did not have the penalty of death.

Yeah,the reason why Pastor T created this thread was on some issues about the mosaic laws. I believe he finds it difficult to reconcile the fact that some Christians still cling to the tithe doctrine.As far as they are concerned it is obsolete since it is included in the mosaic laws.

My point in this thread is that the early church did not have the New Testament: they wrote it! They used the Old Testament scriptures (1 Corinthians 14:26; Ephesians 5:19; Colossians 3:16; 2 Timothy 3:14-17), which is full of "types or shadows" (Colossians 2:17; Hebrews 8:5; 10:1), their recollection of the words of Jesus (Luke 24:8; John 14:26; Acts 11:16), spiritual discernment from the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:14), revelations (1 Corinthians 14:6; 2 Corinthians 12:1; 12:7; Galatians 1:12; Ephesians 3:3), dreams (Acts 2:17), and visions (Acts 2:17; 10:17; 2 Corinthians 12:1; Revelation 9:17) to put the whole thing together, God being in overall control at all times.


The fact that Paul said, "All scripture ... is profitable for doctrine," (2 Timothy 3:16), and, "whatever things were written before were written for our learning," (Romans 15:4), show clearly that no doctrine can be formed without using the Old Testament, to confirm either directly, or by type or shadow, the spiritual truths meant for us today.


Paul also said, "the law is spiritual:" (Romans 7:14), and that he believed "all things that are written in the law and the prophets." (Acts 24:14). So no scripture can be discarded as being "out of date"; even where its literal meaning still applies in a natural sense, there must also be a spiritual truth there for us.

The value of comparing the Old Testament type with the New Testament can be best demonstrated by examples.God bless you sis for your rich input on this forum.

@Bidam,
Oh, ok there is a history. Thanks for the explanation. Ofcourse the law is spiritual and the principles are part of the intent. Thank you for the emphasis.
Amen and God bless you too.

Expect me in full flavor in about 4-5 hours. I will put my time into this thread for the sake of the brethren.

Bidam: Yeah,the reason why Pastor T created this thread was on some issues about the mosaic laws. I believe he finds it difficult to reconcile the fact that some Christians still cling to the tithe doctrine.As far as they are concerned it is obsolete since it is included in the mosaic laws.

My point in this thread is that the early church did not have the New Testament: they wrote it! They used the Old Testament scriptures (1 Corinthians 14:26; Ephesians 5:19; Colossians 3:16; 2 Timothy 3:14-17), which is full of "types or shadows" (Colossians 2:17; Hebrews 8:5; 10:1), their recollection of the words of Jesus (Luke 24:8; John 14:26; Acts 11:16), spiritual discernment from the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:14), revelations (1 Corinthians 14:6; 2 Corinthians 12:1; 12:7; Galatians 1:12; Ephesians 3:3), dreams (Acts 2:17), and visions (Acts 2:17; 10:17; 2 Corinthians 12:1; Revelation 9:17) to put the whole thing together, God being in overall control at all times.


The fact that Paul said, "All scripture ... is profitable for doctrine," (2 Timothy 3:16), and, "whatever things were written before were written for our learning," (Romans 15:4), show clearly that no doctrine can be formed without using the Old Testament, to confirm either directly, or by type or shadow, the spiritual truths meant for us today.


Paul also said, "the law is spiritual:" (Romans 7:14), and that he believed "all things that are written in the law and the prophets." (Acts 24:14). So no scripture can be discarded as being "out of date"; even where its literal meaning still applies in a natural sense, there must also be a spiritual truth there for us.

The value of comparing the Old Testament type with the New Testament can be best demonstrated by examples.God bless you sis for your rich input on this forum.

Yeah bro u are right, but as Christians we walk in the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus which is superior to any other law. Jesus and the other apostles made references to the old covenant as u rightly pointed out, but this was only done as a reference n not as a base for doctrine. As new testament Christians we walk by the leading of the spirit and are living epistles, the scripture is a reference to us which the spirit uses as He guides us into all truth. The letter kills but the spirit gives life, I quite agree with ur summation but I believe from the scriptures that this is the dispensation of the spirit n we are no longer under the elements of this world or dos n donts.
Though having a better covenant does not suggest we living as unbelievers, this where I have problems with many, but rather we do much more according to Jesus in Matthew 5. We dont live right 'cos of fear or to be saved but rather 'cos we are saved we live right and represent Christ as we ought.
Coming to the issue of tithing as one of the principle of the old covenant, I dont believe anyone is under a curse if he refuses to tithe Romans 8:1-2 comes handy here. But I never condemn those that tithe 'cos God will bless givers all the same. The concept or teaching of the New covenant is giving bountifully which God blesses, so whichever way u give bountifully u will be blessed.
I appreciate ur contributions, Emusan, Alwaystrue n others.

Bidam: Note:The New Covenant is better than the old one, and supersedes it

HEBREWS 7:22
22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better covenant.


HEBREWS 8:6-7,13
6 But now he has obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if the first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
13 In that he says, A new covenant, he has made the first old. Now that which decays and grows old is ready to vanish away

But also NOTE:Many people have discarded much of the Old Testament in modern times, giving more weight to the New Testament scriptures. While this is an understandable attitude, because the New Testament reveals the New Covenant, and supersedes the Old Covenant, it is not a correct thing to do.

The New testament declares that, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine." (2 Timothy 3:16). Therefore when we try to understand true doctrine, the Old Testament and New Testament should be studied together, looking to harmonize some of the apparent differences. This is a bible study showing that all scripture is profitable for doctrine, including the Old Testament, which was the only bible for the New Testament church for at least 20 years after the death of Jesus, so they did not have the same attitude as modern Christians.

Agree with this

There's difference between the covenant and the law. We are not under the old covenant but the law itself contain certain principles that are right .

We don't know what sin is except for the law.

Romans 7:7
if it had not been for the Law, I should not have recognized sin or have known its meaning. [For instance] I would not have known about covetousness [would have had no consciousness of sin or sense of guilt] if the Law had not [repeatedly] said, You shall not covet and have an evil desire [for one thing and another].

So principles are forever. Principles travelled in the law didn't die with the law. We have had different constitution in our nation . But there' are element which are foundational in every constitution . They remain even after the old constitution is abolished by the new. For example .we had had litleton constitition in nigeria which was replaced by clifford constitution in 1947 and Macpherson constitution in Nigeria 1951 Murder will always be a crime In every constitution . So the law contains elements that are eternal principles and principles transcends dispensations .

Romans 7:12
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Because the Jewish covenant is obsolete does that justify murder or idolatry now?

Why don't we just live in sin because the old is gone?

The only issue about the law is that it cannot bring justification or make a man right before God. You can use the law on a lawfulf way.

[color=#990000[b] 1Timothy 1:8[/b]
But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;[/color]

Because of tits principles but don't seek to be justified by it becsuse a man can only be justified by faith .

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law:for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Joagbaje:

There's difference between the covenant and the law. We are not under the old covenant but the law itself contain certain principles that are right .

We don't know what sin is except for the law.

Romans 7:7
if it had not been for the Law, I should not have recognized sin or have known its meaning. [For instance] I would not have known about covetousness [would have had no consciousness of sin or sense of guilt] if the Law had not [repeatedly] said, You shall not covet and have an evil desire [for one thing and another].

So principles are forever. Principles travelled in the law didn't die with the law. We have had different constitution in our nation . But there' are element which are foundational in every constitution . They remain even after the old constitution is abolished by the new. For example .we had had litleton constitition in nigeria which was replaced by clifford constitution in 1947 and Macpherson constitution in Nigeria 1951 Murder will always be a crime In every constitution . So the law contains elements that are eternal principles and principles transcends dispensations .

Romans 7:12
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Because the Jewish covenant is obsolete does that justify murder or idolatry now?

Why don't we just live in sin because the old is gone?

Yeah bro I have always taught this, this is the reason I enjoin all to study the New n Old Testament. The principle of the Old Testament never changes and we can only understand the New better in the light of the Old.
Just like the issue of sacrifice in the Old covenant, we dont sacrifice rams anymore but the principle still hold in the new.

@OP good one. I think I'll just contribute here, but I'm going in deep!
The question of the old & new covenants have always bin very confusing n complicated to many xtians, but a diligent study should clarify it. Let say this, the old convenant was an erratic shadow of who God is, that was handed down to the Israelites! It was so bad that it was not inspired of the Holy Ghost, but God had to ordained in the hands of an Angel. Yes for those of you who don't know, it was an Angel that gave Moses the law (u can imagine not even the HS) and u trying to compare that with a convenant that was rectified using the precious blood of Christ!

Okay, I promised to give time to this thread because there's sooooooooooooooooooooo much confusion in the church of Christ today and people end up not knowing anything rather than coming to Sunday-Sunday gathering and coming out more confused. Many of you know me, when I'm ready to teach, you have to be ready to read. Let's get into the word now.

To understand Covenant, we must start from Genesis and run it through Revelation. Also, how does covenant exist in scripture. If a Christian doesn't understand what I'm about to teach here, such person continues to be confuse. This is not to be taken that I know it all but, by God's grace, I study with all diligence and by the power of the Holy Spirit. If I now boast, my boast is in the LORD and the Spirit of truth teaching me.

I start with Dispensations and with dispensations, covenant exist - from Genesis to Revelation.

Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God. Col 1:25

God is the originator of dispensation. Dispensation is simply a period (in time) on how God deals with mankind in His work and purposes toward mankind into different periods of time. In every dispensation God established a covenant with people on how He deals with mankind in a active dispensation.

1. Dispensation of Innocence began with Genesis 1:28-30 and ended 2:15-17). This dispensation covered the period of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. During this time and period, it was God doing and blessing Adam and Eve. During this dispensation, God's covenant was with Adam (the Adamic Covenant) symbolized by the Ground of the Earth

2. Dispensation of Conscience. It started from the time of Adam and Eve’s eviction from the garden until the flood (Genesis 3:8–8:22). This dispensation demonstrates what mankind will do if left to his own will and conscience, which have been tainted by the inherited sin nature. The five major aspects of this dispensation are 1) a curse on the serpent, 2) a change in womanhood and childbearing, 3) a curse on nature, 4) the imposing of work on mankind to produce food, and 5) the promise of Christ as the seed who will bruise the serpent's head (Satan).

3. Dispensation of Human Government, which began in Genesis 8. The Noah (the Noahic Covenant) was established and symbolized by the Rainbow. In this time and period, God was dealing with Noah.

4. Dispensation of Promise, started with the call of Abraham, continued through the lives of the patriarchs, and ended with the Exodus of the Jewish people from Egypt, a period of about 430 years. During this dispensation God developed a great nation that He had chosen as His people (Genesis 12:1–Exodus 19:25). During this time and period, God established his covenant with Abraham. In this covenant, God is the only one obligated to do and fulfill the promises. That's why we read God saying, I Will...., I will, I will, to Abraham. What is required of Abraham is FAITH and\or BELIEVE in the "I will..." of God.

5. Dispensation of Law. It lasted almost 1,500 years, from the Exodus 20 until it after Jesus Christ’s death\burial\resurrection. Moses (the Mosaic Covenant) symbolized by the Two Tablets of the Law. Under this covenant, it was between God and Israel ONLY or the people of Israel and ratified by THE LAW, including the TEN COMMANDMENTS. I read Joagbaje saying there's difference between the covenant and the LAW. That's not true. THE LAW is the OLD Covenant under the Mosaic dispensation of the Law. The LAW was used to ratify the Mosaic covenant. The Law is the 'terms' of the agreement or the covenant.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel. And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the TEN COMMANDMENTS. - Exodus 34:27-28

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even TEN COMMANDMENTS; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. - Deuteronomy 4:13

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant which the LORD made with you, then I abode in the mount forty days and forty nights, I neither did eat bread nor drink water: And the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the LORD spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly. And it came to pass at the end of forty days and forty nights, that the LORD gave me the two tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant. - Deuteronomy 9:9-11

How did these people of Israel got to the point of having the LAW as terms of their covenant BUT Abraham and the others NEVER had the LAW as their terms of covenant or agreement? Follow me closely, I will deal with this question which I already did on another thread but because of re-typing, I will just copy and paste and then continue to the other dispensations and finish up my teachings.

to be continue . . .

This is my argument: The Law, which began 430 years after the covenant [concerning the coming Messiah], does not and cannot annul the covenant previously established (ratified) by God, so as to abolish the promise and make it void.

Galatians 3:17, Amplified Bible (AMP)

The verse makes it clear that a covenant was in force BEFORE the Law covenant or Sinai or Mosaic covenant came into effect. That covenant is the Abrahamic covenant - a covenant based on foreshadow of Grace + faith.

Now, the scripture make it clear also that Abraham wasn't obeying any law officially to receive the promise and Grace of God because there wasn't any officially given or written law to obey, in the next verse of same Galatians 3.

18 For if the inheritance [of the promise depends on observing] the Law [as these false teachers would like you to believe], it no longer [depends] on the promise; however, God gave it to Abraham [as a free gift solely] by virtue of His promise

19 What then was the purpose of the Law? It was added [later on, after the promise, to disclose and expose to men their guilt] because of transgressions and [to make men more conscious of the sinfulness] of sin; and it was intended to be in effect until the Seed (the Descendant, the Heir) should come, to and concerning Whom the promise had been made. And it [the Law] was arranged and ordained and appointed through the instrumentality of angels [and was given] by the hand (in the person) of a go-between [Moses, an intermediary person between God and man]

Here, Paul the Apostle was comparing and contrasting between the covenant of the Law and the Abrahamic covenant. What Paul was teaching in Galatians here is, God never intended the people of Israel to live or be given the law by the virtue of his promises to Abraham. But like I said, it was the children of Israel themselves that changed from or demanded the law - covenants of doing works and performance. How?

to be continue . . .

God remembered His covenant with Abraham and GRACIOUSLY brought the children of Israel out of Egypt. They didn't DO anything for God to deliver them. They didn't OBEY any law for God to do this, bring them out of Egypt. It was all God's effort and Grace based on His promises and covenant with Abraham; the covenant based on what God does, not what man DO.

BEFORE the Law was given, the ten commandments inclusive; NONE of the children of Israel died.They murmured, complained, sinned, rebellious etc BUT they NEVER died, BEFORE the law was given. Why? Because the Abrahamic covenant was still in force - a foreshadow of the covenant of Grace (unmerited and undeserved favour) + faith. They didn't DO (which is a demand of the LAW) anything for God to open the red sea, feed them with manna from heaven, lead them with pillar of fire and cloud, give them water from the rock etc. They didn't obey any law, it was all based on God's unmerited favour because they were still under the Abrahamic covenant, the law had not in enforced yet at all these time, the Gracious acts of God is in operation.

The children of Israel DEMANDED the LAW by themselves - meaning they demanded God NOT to do anything for them based on His Gracious acts according to the Abrahamic covenant BUT that God should do things for them based on their OWN WORKS.

3 And Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him out of the mountain, Say this to the house of Jacob and tell the Israelites:

4 You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings and brought you to Myself.

5 Now therefore, if you will obey My voice in truth and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own peculiar possession and treasure from among and above all peoples; for all the earth is Mine. Exodus 19

Follow the conversation in the Spirit!!! In verse 4, It was God's gracious effort that is speaking that did all that was done for the Israelites. In verse 5, God demanded they obey His VOICE, NOT LAWS because in Exodus 19, the Law had not being given yet. God also demanded they keep His Covenant. Which covenant? Many people do not study deeply (depending on our talk on dispensations above) will think it is talking about the covenant of the law here, NO! It was still the covenant with Abraham (Paul called it covenant BEFORE the Law) that is still in force here and that's the intention of God here - to keep and follow on with the Abrahamic covenant, not to be 'under the law'. Alas, the big change came!!!

to be continue . . .

19 What then was the purpose of the Law? It was added [later on, after the promise, to disclose and expose to men their guilt] because of transgressions and [to make men more conscious of the sinfulness] of sin; and it was intended to be in effect until the Seed (the Descendant, the Heir) should come, to and concerning Whom the promise had been made. And it [the Law] was arranged and ordained and appointed through the instrumentality of angels [and was given] by the hand (in the person) of a go-between [Moses, an intermediary person between God and man]

Paul the Apostle said, the LAW was ADDED...later on, after the promise, to disclose and expose to men their guilt because of transgressions and to make men more conscious of the sinfulness of sin.. Ladies and Gentlemen, what was their guilt? What was their transgression? that added the law to them? Please go back to the conversation in Exodus 19, now verse 7-8

7 So Moses called for the elders of the people and told them all these words which the Lord commanded him. 8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the Lord has spoken we will do. And Moses reported the words of the people to the Lord.

Why would Moses 'report' their words to the Lord? In the Hebrew syntax, the way the people answered, it portrayed arrogance, self righteousness and self efforts. It denotes God should not do anything for them based on His Gracious acts (according to the Abrahamic covenant which was in force based on gracious acts of God) as in verse 4 of Exodus 19 but that God should bless, be gracious and favour them based on their OWN WORKS, that is, DOING something to attract God's wonderful acts; which is basically what the law demands. That's why Paul called it WORKS of the LAW because the law demands DOING and the people said they will DO...in an arrogant manner, self efforts and self righteousness. They are saying, God, henceforth, don't deal with us based of Abrahamic covenant but based on OUR OWN DOINGS and our PERFOMANCES.

This is how the people of Israel got the LAW added and given to them to change from the Abrahamic covenant into the Mosaic and this covenant was ratififed BY THE LAW. The Law became the terms of the agreement or covenant between God and Israel. The Covenant of the Law continued until AFTER the death and resurection of Christ and the Cross of Christ is the great divider.

Then God gave the Law, the 10 commandments in Exodus 20 because of this GUILT and TRANSGRESSION of the people. Then Paul called these 10 commandments MINISTRY OF DEATH. What does this mean? When Israel demanded or changed from Abrahamic covenant to the Law covenant, things changed. In Exodus 14:11; 15:23-25 and 16:3, (BEFORE the law was given and enforced the Mosaic covenant) the children of Israel complained and murmured BUT didn't die BUT after the covenant of the Law was in force and changed from Abrahamic to the Law, they complain the same complain in Numbers 21:5-6 AND THEY DIED!!! This is because a different covenant (of the Law and Law dispensation) was in force now.

to be continue . . .

6. Dispensation of Grace. Messiah (the New Covenant) symbolized by the Passover Cup and Bread. It began with the New Covenant in Christ’s blood (Luke 22:20). This “Age of Grace” or “Church Age”. It starts with the death of Christ and ends with the Rapture of the church (1 Thessalonians 4). This dispensation is worldwide and includes both Jews and the Gentiles. Believer's responsibility during the Dispensation of Grace is to believe or have faith in the FINISHED WORKS or ALREADY DONE WORKS of Jesus, the Son of God (John 3:18) JUST LIKE IT WAS WITH THE ABRAHAMIC COVENANT because Abrahamic covenant is a form and foreshadow of the Grace dispensation and of the New Covenant of Christ. In this dispensation the Holy Spirit indwells believers as the Comforter (John 14:16-26).

Is the New Covenant a continuation of the Old Mosaic Covenant of LAW? The answer is NO and they should not be confused or mixed together because they both operate different terms and agreement. Hebrews chapter 8 and 9 intensively taught the NEW Covenant and Hebrews 8:7-9 says,

For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

God is saying here, the New Covenant WILL NOT be as the terms and agreement of the Old, that is, the Mosaic covenant of the law. Those who continue in some practices of Old covenant under the new are confused. Everything under the Old is done away and doesn't apply to Christians, including the ten commandments. Does that mean we can commit adultery, kill or murder etc? NO!!! You don't need the Law to tell you not to commit adultery, it is against the new nature in Christ and the Holy Spirit replaced the law and tells you adultery, murdering etc is bad. We are no longer guided by rules, codes, regulations etc but by the Spirit. As many as are led by the Spirit, they are sons of God. The Law has no charges or anything to say against the fruit the Holy Spirit produces in us.

The End