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Anony & Deep Sight: Verse By Verse Academy On The Trinity & The Deity Of Christ / About The Trinity / Biblical Quotes Proving That Jesus Is Not God And The Absence Of The Trinity. (2) (3) (4)
Against The Trinity by Nobody: 7:52pm On Oct 12, 2013 |
In the entire bible there is only one verse that purportedly explicitly states the doctrine of the trinity that is of course, 1 John 5:7-8 It is impossible to infer the doctrine of the trinity independently in the bible without this verse. In the Latin Vulgate Bible which Pope Damasus commissioned Jerome to produce in the late 4th century it reads; there are three that bear witness in heaven: the father, the word, and the spirit, and these three are one, and there are three that bear witness on earth, the spirit, the water and the blood and these three are one. Erasmus, the compiler of the principal edition of Greek New Testament (on which the kjv is based) could not find this statement in any of the ancient and earliest original manuscripts, which all simply read; and there are three that bear witness on earth, the spirit, the water, and the blood, and these three are one. The full verse in the Latin Vulgate could not be found in any of the ancient Greek manuscripts that predated the Latin Vulgate. Where did it come from? More likely an insertion by the Bishop of Caesaria, Eusebius who was commissioned by Emperor Constantine in 331CE to produce 50 Bibles at state expense and was much noted for pious forgery. No matter, we now know the statement was not in the original manuscripts. Erasmus leaves out the errant statement and publishes the Greek NT and all hell breaks loose, the church accuses Erasmus of treachery and orders him to include the statement in full or face the consequences, Erasmus agrees on condition that the church leaders provide him an authentic Greek (not Latin) manuscript with the full verse included, Church leaders promptly hand Erasmus a copy of the Latin Vulgate with the full verse translated into Greek, Erasmus accepts it, despite his misgivings. The Greek NT becomes textus receptus and it is the document the King James version translated into English has been based on. The doctrine of the trinity exists solely to validate the corollary of the divinity of Jesus and is a clear fabrication. It is a much later insertion into Christian theology. Jesus nowhere in the synoptic gospels proclaims himself divine, in fact he asks his disciples and followers severally, and who do they say that I am ? |
Re: Against The Trinity by VirginFinder: 8:00pm On Oct 12, 2013 |
Come on. The trinity is scriptural and cannot be fully comprehended by we humans. It's a matter of faith. 1 Like |
Re: Against The Trinity by Nobody: 8:20pm On Oct 12, 2013 |
Virgin Finder: Come on. The trinity is scriptural and cannot be fully comprehended by we humans. Unless you can show me how the spirit, water and blood constitutes the holy trinity, then no, the concept is not scriptural it is entirely man made. |
Re: Against The Trinity by ammyluv2002(f): 9:11pm On Oct 12, 2013 |
Sarassin:Then you have a choice. ....believe it or not! Is a two way thing |
Re: Against The Trinity by Nobody: 9:38pm On Oct 12, 2013 |
ammyluv2002: Then you have a choice. ....believe it or not! Is a two way thing Actually, its a three way thing ![]() 1 Like |
Re: Against The Trinity by Nobody: 12:17pm On Oct 14, 2013 |
Thus says the Lord, King of Israel…..I am the first and I am the last. Besides me there is no God. (Isaiah 44:6) In this simple elegant incontrovertible statement the primacy and uniqueness of the God of Israel is established. How has Christianity found itself with the doctrine of Trinity found in 1 John 5:7-8 Quite simply, the doctrine of trinity was the direct result of early church leaders confronting what was considered by them to be heretical beliefs by gnostic sects, and the need to explain the newly divine Jesus in the light of monotheism. Jewish Christians, the Ebionites were adamant there was only One God and Jesus was not God, he was human, For Jesus to be God, it means there are two Gods. The Marcionites took the opposite view. Jesus wasn’t human precisely because he was God, they didn’t subscribe to the belief that there were two Gods, but that the God of Israel was clearly different. Then there was Sabellianism, named after Sabellius who was excommunicated for his views, it went something like this; God has different modes of existence, i.e, I am a son in relation to my father, a father in relationship to my son, and a husband in relationship to my wife. Not three people but one person defined by different relationships. No matter, Tertullian declared all these viewpoints, heretical, saying ‘’ The father is one, and the son is one, and the spirit is one, they are distinct from one another…..’’ Tertullian asserts that even though the three personages in the Godhead are distinct, they are not different in substance, all are God, he propounds ‘’the unity of the trinity’’ 1 Like |
Re: Against The Trinity by Emusan(m): 1:53pm On Oct 14, 2013 |
Sarassin: Thus says the Lord, King of Israel…..I am the first and I am the last. Besides me there is no God. (Isaiah 44:6) In this simple elegant incontrovertible statement the primacy and uniqueness of the God of Israel is established. How has Christianity found itself with the doctrine of Trinity found in 1 John 5:7-8 The problem that Anti-deity of Jesus have is asking themselves simple question (s ). When we are talking about Trinity, did we claim that Father is a God, Son is a God and Holyspirit is also a God? No! They simply mean Father who has revealed Himself to His own creations through His own word in a person of Jesus Christ and continue to relate with them through His own Spirit. Very simple. Both Jesus and Holy spirit are part of God in which nothing can seperate them. Whenever they (Jesus & Holy spirit) are in operations they put God into action without God leaving His throne. God created the universe through His own word, cursed the whole creations through His own Word, and redeemed and reconcilled them to Himself through His own Word again. In these three phases of work the Holyspirit took a special role too. Now if you think Trinity means Jesus can do anything on His own it's a lie likewise Holy spirit. Shalom! 2 Likes |
Re: Against The Trinity by Nobody: 5:20pm On Oct 14, 2013 |
Emusan: And therein lies the entire problem with Christianity. The creation of another gospel to accommodate a doctrine that was conceived as a response to orthodoxy-defined heretics. Nowhere in the Bible has God proposed such a doctrine. 1 John 5:7-8 has been shown to be an insertion, no other verses in the NT or OT bears out the doctrine of the trinity. Actually there really is no problem in adherents creating their own beliefs, the problem is in trying to pass off the traditions of men as the work of God. 2 Likes |
Re: Against The Trinity by Emusan(m): 6:05pm On Oct 14, 2013 |
Sarassin: What does your respond has to do with my post or did I say you Op is wrong? If that verse is inserted what happen to John 1:10 is better you leave copy and paste work from net, and sit down and read your Bible with clear understanding. Shalom! |
Re: Against The Trinity by Nobody: 6:36pm On Oct 14, 2013 |
Emusan: I am not sure what you are getting at as I fail to see how John 1:10 advances the cause of the Trinity. I am very clear that I consider the doctrine of Trinity or any derivative thereof, superfluous I hope that is clear understanding enough for you. |
Re: Against The Trinity by MightySparrow: 3:29am On Oct 15, 2013 |
remove I John 5: 6 - 7, The trinity is still consistent with the Bible. However, believe what you will. Jesus said, ' believe me for the works that I do .......' I have not seen any group that opposes this doctrine that works in the miraculous. Branham started out with this doctrine deviated and died according to warning to him All you people have argument not the reality of God. 1 Like |
Re: Against The Trinity by Emusan(m): 12:05pm On Oct 15, 2013 |
Sarassin: John 1:10 says "He(Jesus) was in the world, and the world was made by Him(Jesus), and the world knew Him(Jesus) not" Gen 1:1 & Isaiah 44:24. In these verses God claims responsibilty of creating the universe Himself. Read those verses and compare it with John 1:10. |
Re: Against The Trinity by Nobody: 3:36pm On Oct 15, 2013 |
Emusan: No, again it's a fudge. Through the mouth of the prophet Isaiah we have the words of God saying ...I am the first and the last Isaiah 44:24 is a continuation of this theme as is Gen 1:1. John 1:10 is an expression of the author of John, lofty and laudable though it is, it does not amount to provenance of a trinity. If anything at all, he contradicts the words of the prophet Isaiah. 1 Like |
Re: Against The Trinity by Nobody: 3:49pm On Oct 15, 2013 |
Mighty Sparrow: remove I John 5: 6 - 7, The trinity is still consistent with the Bible. However, believe what you will. Jesus said, ' believe me for the works that I do .......' I have not seen any group that opposes this doctrine that works in the miraculous. Branham started out with this doctrine deviated and died according to warning to him How is the doctrine of the trinity still consistent with the Bible after removing 1 John 5:6-7 ? There are no other standalone verses in the Bible that supports it. You simply cannot make a case for it. The quote you have provided has nothing to do with the discussion, it is mere dissembling. The fact that you think no other Christian groups opposed/opposes the doctrine of the trinity indicates you are not familiar with the religion. As for Branham what on earth are you going on about ? |
Re: Against The Trinity by MightySparrow: 4:14am On Oct 16, 2013 |
Sarassin: You or some one else talked about Nicean creed. I encourage you to get material s on the discourse of the key players. Besides, to claim that Jesus is not a deity is not consistent with the bible. Who did Isaiah see is his book chapter Six? |
Re: Against The Trinity by Emusan(m): 7:20am On Oct 16, 2013 |
Sarassn: Did you get my point at? I'm taking my point from who created the universe and you're there making another point. If John 1:10 is an expression, was it written for fun or about the WORD that became flesh? The reason I said you should read those verses was that, if those verses claim that God created the universe alone and some said He ccreated by/through Jesus. How did God create it through Jesus? |
Re: Against The Trinity by Nobody: 8:48am On Oct 16, 2013 |
Emusan: I dont really get ur position cos it seem to be different from others. Are you in effect stating that Jesus and Holy Spirit are part of God but not equal to the almighty. just like a hand, a nose is part of you but not equal to you? explain. |
Re: Against The Trinity by Emusan(m): 12:59pm On Oct 16, 2013 |
JMAN05: My point about Trinity maybe different/the same to anyone's view/point but I didnt claim it is universer, is how I understand it from my Bible so far. God; the Father......is the only God. The Son.....is the word of the Father whose Father made It to become flesh and sent to what the word created & polluted to purified them in other to reconcile any of the creations who believes in Him to Himself. The Holyspirit......Is the spirit of the Father. Both of them have equality in power, action, omnipresent, e.t.c with Father because they reveal true Father in any of their oppration and always with God which make them God too but the Father is greater than them because without instruction from the Father both can't act. Remember I said what I've understood so far in Bible Shalom! |
Re: Against The Trinity by Nobody: 2:31pm On Oct 16, 2013 |
Mighty Sparrow: I am familiar with the Nicene Creed, it is the profession of faith of the Christian theology particularly in the face of various heresies. It begins with that famous refrain; we believe in one God I have not claimed Jesus is not a deity, my assertion is that Jesus does not say he is God in any of the synoptics who wrote from a mainly Jewish standpoint. Rather he asks, who do they say that I am ? Isaiah 6: I fail to see a relationship to the trinity in the book, perhaps you could enlighten me ? 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Against The Trinity by Nobody: 2:58pm On Oct 16, 2013 |
Emusan: I get your point. Consider however that Isaiah tells us the Lord God says he is the first and last and no others besides him, as does Moses and a host of others, but; John is alone in explicitly proclaiming the pre-existence of Jesus. (in the beginning the word was with god) John is alone in proclaiming Jesus as the word made flesh John is alone in saying that Jesus created the world (John 1:10) John is also alone in explicitly proclaiming the doctrine of the trinity Now either Isaiah and the other prophets are all wrong in saying God created the universe alone or John is wrong in his assertions. Both cannot be right unless you create another narrative. The doctrine of trinity is created in the Book of John to justify the divinity of Jesus that is also proclaimed in the Book of John, there can be no other reason for such a radical doctrine. 1 Like |
Re: Against The Trinity by Nobody: 3:28pm On Oct 16, 2013 |
Emusan: then you are no longer talking about trinity cos the father is greater than them. You cant be equal with the person who is greater than you. again as you said, you cant act without his instruction, as such you are subject to Him. For the fact that the Father can act without your instruction shows that He is not your equal. in fact "equality" and "greater than" are two contradictory words to use for persons. I cant be equal to you and as well greater than you. how do you see that? research again. |
Re: Against The Trinity by Freksy(m): 4:00pm On Oct 16, 2013 |
Virgin Finder: Come on. The trinity is scriptural and cannot be fully comprehended by we humans. Come on, God is "four in one"! This is scriptural and cannot be fully comprehended by we humans. It's a matter of faith....LOL. 1 Like |
Re: Against The Trinity by Nobody: 4:13pm On Oct 16, 2013 |
Sarassin: |
Re: Against The Trinity by Nobody: 4:14pm On Oct 16, 2013 |
Sarassin: There is no contradiction by any of the writers. God created all things THROUGH Jesus. ie after God created Jesus. Colossians 1:15-16 KJV Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: [16] For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: by calling him the firstborn of every creature/firstborn of all creation, it shows he was the first to be created. then, God now created all other things Through him. Hebrews 1:2 KJV Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; When God said He did all this alone, it is no contradiction 'cos He gave power and direction to Jesus whom He used in doing it. Inshort when God use other persons to do His work, He views it as if He was the one who did it directly. Of course, the same is done even in human government. Only God is the creator but He used Jesus to do it. Jesus cant claim to be the creator because the plan and the power is his Father's. 1 Like |
Re: Against The Trinity by Nobody: 4:26pm On Oct 16, 2013 |
Emusan: I think it is rather difficult for many Christians to make a presentation of the trinity without being contradictory. Curiously, we see the first ever use of the term trinity by the famous mathematician, philosopher and mystic of the Orphean tradition, Pythagoras.(6BCE) He leaves us his teachings. For Pythagoras, the God-creator represented number 1,which he called a Monad and it existed in a form of Two opposites +1 and -1, a pair called he called a Diad thus combined to constitute a divine Triad. It is this pagan Hellenic tradition that forms the basis for the evolution of the early Christian concept of the Holy Trinity. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Against The Trinity by Delafruita(m): 4:30pm On Oct 16, 2013 |
Emusan:absolute trash |
Re: Against The Trinity by Nobody: 5:40pm On Oct 16, 2013 |
JMAN05: The contradictions remain. The creation story monologue of Genesis 1 bears this out, a litany of thirty odd verses and not a hint of delegation, not a reference to a pre-existing Son who might have helped with creation. Your assertion that it is no contradiction 'cos he gave power and direction to Jesus whom he used...... is your opinion, if it were so, it would have been stated in Genesis in the beginning, or do we propose that the good Lord forgot and simply instructed John and the Apostle Paul to remind us all ? I doubt that Even if I concede your argument, which I do not, It still remains a huge leap of faith to conclusively attest provenance of a trinity. |
Re: Against The Trinity by Emusan(m): 7:02pm On Oct 16, 2013 |
JMAN05: Remember The word TRINITY simply means Tri(three)-in - Unity. It is explanation that brought in the major confusion i.e equal in person. But Trinity should be like this God who has revealed Himself to mankind by His own word and continue to dwell with us through His own Spirit. |
Re: Against The Trinity by Emusan(m): 8:00pm On Oct 16, 2013 |
Sarassin: No contradiction their only when you can recognize that Jesus is the Word of God. @JMAN you tried only that you miss it when you said God first created the Son then created everything through Him. Those Isaiah verses and Genesis make it clear that God didn't create the universe after created The Son. The question is how did God create the universe through Jesus? Heb 11:2 says "through faith we believed that the whole worlds was framed by the word of God..." and Gen 1 confirmed this statement when we read "....and God says let there be..." Isaiah 48:13 make it more clearer "AMP:Yes, My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together [to execute My decrees]. ESV:My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together. KJV:Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together. NASB:“Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together. NIV:My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together. Any verse(s) that say God the world are correct likewise the ones which through Jesus Christ like Heb 1:2, Ephe 3:9. That is why John said in John 1:3 AMP:All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him was not even one thing made that has come into being. ESV:All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. KJV:All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. NASB:All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. NIV:Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. The word and God cannot be seperated. John 1:1 and the word is God; this word was only given a name after it became flesh. God made It(the word) to be self existing John 5:26 "AMP:For even as the Father has life in Himself and is self-existent, so He has given to the Son to have life in Himself and be self-existent. ESV:For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. KJV:For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; NASB:For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; NIV:For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. AMP explain it better. The next verse then says The (Father) then gave Him[Son] the authority to execute judgement. NB: He possesses all the ATTRIBUTES of God, He share names with God Isaiah 9:6 [b]" AMP:For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be upon His shoulder, and His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father [of Eternity], Prince of Peace. ESV:For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. KJV:For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. NASB:For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. NIV:For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. That is why whenever Jesus is in operations He is also called God.[/b] which God never allows even Angel to be called. With all these you will know who Jesus really is. In any operations of Jesus He was also called God Titus 2:13 AMP:Awaiting and looking for the [fulfillment, the realization of our] blessed hope, even the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One), ESV:waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, KJV:Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; NASB:looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, NIV:while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, So its left for you to decide who Jesus really Is. Shalom! |
Re: Against The Trinity by Nobody: 10:33pm On Oct 16, 2013 |
@ Emusan, You say; "No contradiction their only when you can recognize that Jesus is the Word of God. " This is nothing more than a play on the word, word if you can excuse my pun. Are we to assume that every occasion the term word of God occurs in the Bible it is a reference to Jesus ? Please clarify Instances; 1 kings 12:22 But this the word of God came unto Shemaiah 1 Chronicles 17:3 But that night the word of God came to Nathan Joel 1:1 The word of the Lord that came to Joel son of Pethuel Jeremiah 2:1 The word of the Lord came to me.... It goes on ad infinitio 2 Likes |
Re: Against The Trinity by Emusan(m): 10:25am On Oct 17, 2013 |
Sarassin: @ Emusan, You say; My points are very clear in above only for you to digest them that left. "The word of God came to me" this phrase should tell you that God is speaking to people in a clear audible voice. WHICH IS totally different from when God put HIS own WORD INTO ACTION like in creation time Isaiah 48:13, 45:12, and when He made the same WORD became FLESH John 1:14 Though some cases are in the Bible where Christ is being called the literal word of God but in a distinct ways I.e 1Peter 1:23 " AMP:You have been regenerated (born again), not from a mortal origin (seed, sperm), but from one that is immortal by the ever living and lasting Word of God. ESV:since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God; KJV:Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. NIV:For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. Here where the "word of God" appeared you can simply replace it with Jesus Christ. Shalom! |
Re: Against The Trinity by Nobody: 11:59am On Oct 17, 2013 |
Emusan: Again, it's all a play on word When it suits you ....it's Jesus, when it doesn't suit you it's the audible voice of God or a perishable seed. Where is the consistency ? The substitution of word for Jesus is sufficiently eclectic, afterall it could be argued that in 1 kings 12:22 it was in fact Jesus who came unto Shemaiah, it would make sense since according to the Book of John, Jesus pre-existed and would therefore presumably be active, the point is who is the arbiter ? Your interpretations are entirely subjective, it is also a microcosm of the folly of the assumptions of generic usage of terms to fit a pre-conceived worldview. The challenge was to deduce the doctrine of the Trinity from a stand-alone verse within the Bible without the use of 1 John 5:7-8, so far, it is a failure. 1 Like 1 Share |
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