arsenalwenger: You are loyal to watchtower and not to God or Jesus. If Jesus says his coming will be like a thief in the night and you are here saying he was ethroned in 1914 then you are a liar. If Jesus said all power in heaven, on earth earth and under the heaven has been given to him (more than 2000yrs ago) and watchtower is telling me that he was invisisbly enthroned in 1914 then watchtower is lying. If Jesus said that all eyes will see him when he returns and the watchtower said 'no' that his return will be invisible, then watchtower is a lying organization.

As hisblud has said earlier, it seem the JW Jesus (aka fallen angel) is different from Jesus of the Bible.

arsenalwenger: Secular histrory or no secular history, my point is this, Jesus was not ethroned in 1914, 1894, or any date as being taught by JW. The basis of my argument is never to justify the exact date he was 'enthroned', even if you choose any date, other than 1914, it is still false. Jesus return will never be invisible (Read Act 1: 8-11 and stop believing all the junks from watchtower magazine). .

arsenalwenger: Secular histrory or no secular history, my point is this, Jesus was not ethroned in 1914, 1894, or any date as being taught by JW. The basis of my argument is never to justify the exact date he was 'enthroned', even if you choose any date, other than 1914, it is still false. Jesus return will never be invisible (Read Act 1: 8-11 and stop believing all the junks from watchtower magazine).

Jesus' return, according to the Bible, will be visible and not invisible. The earliest teaching of the Bible students (now known as JW) is that Jesus will return in 1914, but when their prophecy failed they turned it to invisible presence.

I know my point will never make sense to you, and thats the most unfortunate part of it, but that will not stop me from hammering the fact to your ear. I know you have a sincere mind for spiritual thing but it's unfortunate that you find yourself in a place that half truth is being spread, especially when it got to do with the foundation of christian doctrines.

arsenalwenger: Secular histrory or no secular history, my point is this, Jesus was not ethroned in 1914, 1894, or any date as being taught by JW. The basis of my argument is never to justify the exact date he was 'enthroned', even if you choose any date, other than 1914, it is still false. Jesus return will never be invisible (Read Act 1: 8-11 and stop believing all the junks from watchtower magazine). .

TroGunn:



Your confusion comes in equating God's Kingdom starting/coming and Christ's coming to judge/destroy the wicked as the same thing.

God's Kingdom is a government in heaven. "Kingdom" is a government by a King, in this case Jesus Christ. As stated in Dan 2:44 - "In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever".

The kingdom coming did not happen while Christ was on earth - otherwise he won't ask us to pray to God as stated in Matthew 6:10 - "'Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven".

Being as the Kingdom is heavenly, it's start would be largely invisible to humans on earth as Christ was to "rule in the midst of his enemies" (Psalm 110:1-2; Hebrews 10:12-13)

I've already posted on the two lines of evidence pointing to when this Kingdom began, and how doing God's will in heaven involved Satan's ouster (Rev 12: 7-10, 12), leading to the deteriorating conditions on earth.

Christ coming to judge the wicked ( also leads to reward of everlasting life to his friends) is the part of doing God's will on earth (per the Lord's' prayer) and is yet future. Based on the Lord's prayer, it was always going to happen after the Kingdom comes, and the heavenly will has been done.

Now, when Christ said he was given all authority after his resurrection, what did he mean?

Matt 28:18-20 "Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." (HIV)

Notice, how the context shows that Christ's authority relates to his backing his followers in preaching/teaching (making disciples), till "end of the age".

As Jman pointed out, same idea is in Ephesians 1:20-22 - "Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church," (Ephesians 1:20-22).

So while Christ was then waiting to assume Kingly power (till his enemies are placed as "footstool for his feet" ) , he already was given full authority to be the "head of the church/congregation" directing and protecting it as necessary.

(Also Eph 5:23: "For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Saviour" ) .

JMAN05:

I tell you this guy is so lost, lost to the extent that he is wandering where there is no broadcast station. I don't even know how to rescue him.

TroGunn:



Your confusion comes in equating God's Kingdom starting/coming and Christ's coming to judge/destroy the wicked as the same thing.

God's Kingdom is a government in heaven. "Kingdom" is a government by a King, in this case Jesus Christ. As stated in Dan 2:44 - "In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever".

The kingdom coming did not happen while Christ was on earth - otherwise he won't ask us to pray to God as stated in Matthew 6:10 - "'Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven".

Being as the Kingdom is heavenly, it's start would be largely invisible to humans on earth as Christ was to "rule in the midst of his enemies" (Psalm 110:1-2; Hebrews 10:12-13)

I've already posted on the two lines of evidence pointing to when this Kingdom began, and how doing God's will in heaven involved Satan's ouster (Rev 12: 7-10, 12), leading to the deteriorating conditions on earth.

Christ coming to judge the wicked ( also leads to reward of everlasting life to his friends) is the part of doing God's will on earth (per the Lord's' prayer) and is yet future. Based on the Lord's prayer, it was always going to happen after the Kingdom comes, and the heavenly will has been done.

Now, when Christ said he was given all authority after his resurrection, what did he mean?

Matt 28:18-20 "Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." (HIV)

Notice, how the context shows that Christ's authority relates to his backing his followers in preaching/teaching (making disciples), till "end of the age".

As Jman pointed out, same idea is in Ephesians 1:20-22 - "Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church," (Ephesians 1:20-22).

So while Christ was then waiting to assume Kingly power (till his enemies are placed as "footstool for his feet" ) , he already was given full authority to be the "head of the church/congregation" directing and protecting it as necessary.

(Also Eph 5:23: "For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Saviour" ) .

arsenalwenger: Thank you, so how do you relate your write-up with Act 1:7-11?

TroGunn:

It's a problem of being fed a lifetime of crappy teachings. Coupled with pride - not wanting to accept facts laid bare.

truthislight: I never expected any usefull thing to come out from @Hisblud thread, i dont know what i am even doing here sef.

*Anyone that have time to waste can come and dance in circle in the mud with you. Smh.*

Peace though

JMAN05:

Hisblud, Like I always say, you either have problem in understanding or you like arguing blindly even when a written text is so clear. I am sorry, you didnt pay me to teach you English.

I dont bring up that archangel issue anymore. I asked you to provide a hebrew word for angel, you further exposed your poor research skills by posting rubbish which is not the hebrew word for angel. which makes me wonder what you gain from that gibberish you utter. As far as you failed in that direction, stop posting it as if you ve proven it wrong.

JMAN05:

EARLY in 1911, the president of the Watch Tower Society, C. T. Russell, gave a series of Bible lectures in major cities of Europe. Commenting on that tour, Russell wrote the following in The Watch Tower, May 15, 1911: “We were surprised to find so many evidences of prosperity everywhere . . . Our readers know that for some years we have been expecting this Age to close with an awful time of trouble, and we expect it to break out with suddenness and force not long [i]after [/i]October, 1914, which, so far as we can understand the Scriptures, is the date at which the Times of the Gentiles—the lease of earth’s dominions to the Gentiles—will expire; the time, therefore, when Messiah’s kingdom will be due to begin its exercise of power.”

http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102005159?q=1914&p=par

The Gentile Times would end
in 1914, resulting in
- End of Armageddon
- The fall of false religion
- The end of all governments
- The resurrection
- Paradise on earth

JMAN05:

NWT has not been there then.

arsenalwenger: you better leave if you dont have anything thing to contribute.

JMAN05:

@Hisblud, please take note - this is what I said everyone agrees, not 607BC).

For hisblud info.

TroGunn:

True, Secular history has it that the babylonians destroyed Jerusalem in 587 BC [size=18pt]as against 607 BC as taught by JW[/size]. Now, secular history is known to be wrong. And when you consider the basis for the 587 BC date, you'll realise that it's almost certainly wrong.

The Bible points to 607BC as the date Babylonians destroyed Jerusalem. Here's how:

Various Bible verse show that Jerusalem was to lay desolate and waste for 70 years.

2 Chronicles 36:20-23 - "And he removeth those left of the sword unto Babylon, and they are to him and to his sons for servants, till the reigning of the kingdom of Persia, to fulfil the word of Jehovah in the mouth of Jeremiah, till the land hath enjoyed its sabbaths; all the days of the desolation it kept sabbath -- to the fulness of seventy years. And in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, at the completion of the word of Jehovah in the mouth of Jeremiah, hath Jehovah waked up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, and he causeth an intimation to pass over into all his kingdom, and also in writing, saying, Thus said Cyrus king of Persia, All kingdoms of the earth hath Jehovah, God of the heavens, given to me, and He hath laid a charge on me to build to Him a house in Jerusalem, that is in Judah; who is among you of all His people? Jehovah his God is with him, and he doth go up.'" ( Young's)

Clearly Babylon fell, generally accepted to be in 539BC. Cyrus in his first year of ruling Babylon decreed the Jews can go back to Jerusalem.

It's also generally accepted that the Jews were back in Jerusalem by 537CE, which is when the 70-year exile ended. Thus, counting back, the start of the 70years would be 607BC - based on the Bible. Secular history arriving 587BC is based on records known to have errors.

Note that it's a calculation of years, so the length of 360- or 365 day-per-year is irrelevant since days are not being used.

We'll look at the dream of Nebuchadnezzar, other related Bible verses and how it all fits together in another post.

JMAN05:

@Hisblud, please take note - this is what I said everyone agrees, not 607BC).

For hisblud info.

TroGunn:

True, Secular history has it that the babylonians destroyed Jerusalem in 587 BC [size=18pt]as against 607 BC as taught by JW[/size]. Now, secular history is known to be wrong. And when you consider the basis for the 587 BC date, you'll realise that it's almost certainly wrong.

The Bible points to 607BC as the date Babylonians destroyed Jerusalem. Here's how:

Various Bible verse show that Jerusalem was to lay desolate and waste for 70 years.

2 Chronicles 36:20-23 - "And he removeth those left of the sword unto Babylon, and they are to him and to his sons for servants, till the reigning of the kingdom of Persia, to fulfil the word of Jehovah in the mouth of Jeremiah, till the land hath enjoyed its sabbaths; all the days of the desolation it kept sabbath -- to the fulness of seventy years. And in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, at the completion of the word of Jehovah in the mouth of Jeremiah, hath Jehovah waked up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, and he causeth an intimation to pass over into all his kingdom, and also in writing, saying, Thus said Cyrus king of Persia, All kingdoms of the earth hath Jehovah, God of the heavens, given to me, and He hath laid a charge on me to build to Him a house in Jerusalem, that is in Judah; who is among you of all His people? Jehovah his God is with him, and he doth go up.'" ( Young's)

Clearly Babylon fell, generally accepted to be in 539BC. Cyrus in his first year of ruling Babylon decreed the Jews can go back to Jerusalem.

It's also generally accepted that the Jews were back in Jerusalem by 537CE, which is when the 70-year exile ended. Thus, counting back, the start of the 70years would be 607BC - based on the Bible. Secular history arriving 587BC is based on records known to have errors.

Note that it's a calculation of years, so the length of 360- or 365 day-per-year is irrelevant since days are not being used.

We'll look at the dream of Nebuchadnezzar, other related Bible verses and how it all fits together in another post.

JMAN05:

I am waiting to see how you will explain 1tim6:16.

I am also looking to see how verse 11 prove your point.

arsenalwenger: Thank you, so how do you relate your write-up with Act 1:7-11?

hisblud:

Jman05,Jman05,Jman05,Jman05,Jman05 are you trying to deny that Trogun never said 607BC.. check the bolded...

TroGunn:

Clearly Babylon fell, generally accepted to be in 539BC. Cyrus in his first year of ruling Babylon decreed the Jews can go back to Jerusalem.

It's also generally accepted that the Jews were back in Jerusalem by 537CE.

TroGunn:

Chief, Na waooo. Of course I mentioned 607BC, isn't that what you guys brought up? But I never said it was generally accepted, which is what you implied. What I said is generally accepted are:

JMAN05:

I tell you this guy is so lost, lost to the extent that he is wandering where there is no broadcast station. I don't even know how to rescue him.

hisblud:

Thank you Jman05, no long grammer...So my dear which bible was used ... NOT NWT... which did russell use...?

hisblud:

Thank you Jman05, no long grammer...So my dear which bible was used ... NOT NWT... which did russell use...?

hisblud:

which is generally accepted by JW ... 587 BC OR 607BC.. by the way, am not interested in HOW 1914 came to be ... what am interested is WHY 1914 and WHAT "BIBLE" was used to come about the 1914.

hisblud:

lol... i will answer you speedily to the issue of angels soonest.... and please stop trying to sound so grammatically correct from what you posted... it is as clear as any one can read or you are trying to twist the words to mean something else....

notice the bolded, from oct 1914 the lease of rulership of the earth by gentile is suppose to be over and your archangel "another" christ is to begin reigning wit prosperity. What i see around me does not give credence to your prophet's statement of the end of the gentile era infact the gentiles are still ruling against your fake archangel jesus. In addition, clearly this is what 1914 prediction is www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/failed-1914-predictions.php

hisblud:

Thank you Jman05, no long grammer...So my dear which bible was used ... NOT NWT... which did russell use...?

hisblud:




Jman05,Jman05,Jman05,Jman05,Jman05 are you trying to deny that Trogun never said 607BC.. check the bolded...

arsenalwenger: You want drag me into an unnecassary stalemate by this post. Read 1tim6:13-16 and comapare it with Act 1:8-11 and tell me what you understand. Stop calling a white BLACK in order to prove a point at all cost.

These verse you provided has no correlation with issue at hand (that is your 1914 discussion).

hisblud:

which is generally accepted by JW ... 587 BC OR 607BC.. by the way, am not interested in HOW 1914 came to be ... what am interested is WHY 1914 and WHAT "BIBLE" was used to come about the 1914.

hisblud:

Guy i dont think HE needs rescue ... you and all peeps that believe that Yahshua son of YHWH is an archangel who appeared in 1914 invisibly, are those that needs to be rescued... SMH... and pls dont come here chanting that i should stop all this archangel crap... its one of you core doctrine...