d topic s educational and helpful as we v young 'uns also on nairaland who may learn a thing or two....if kim kardsashia is on frontpage, why cant this make it?

Ajibel: ^^ That we need maths?

From time_to_time, na reminder

Javanian:

Apparently, going on with this argument is like taking a journey to a bottomless pit, we would go on and on with no result because we are talking from two entirely different standpoints. You, a developer who believes writing 'backbone/foundation' softwares where 'all the hard maths' is done isn't for mere mortals. You are okay creating 'Average software' that don't need maths, comfortable googling, downloading and using 'frameworks and plugins' created by 'born-to-code' humanoids. and me talking from the standpoint of a computer science major where we are taught to create 'backbone/foundation' softwares where application of certain aspects of maths are inevitable. How can i understand/implement Network and Graph theory without understanding discrete mathematics and numerical analysis? So you are free to stay in your comfort zone and use whatever works for you

Apparently we dont reason alike. but when you'r pressing home your points do so with objectivenss not sarcasm.
YOu put words in my mouth i never said.

javanian:
You, a developer who believes writing 'backbone/foundation' softwares where 'all the hard maths' is done isn't for mere mortals.

Did i say this? or this is the meaning you read?

You dont know how to critique an argument. And your sarcasm and apparent arrogance isnt helping things at all.

asalimpo:
Most developers dont need higher maths.
How much math do web devs, need?
How much math do 99.9% of business software need?
To create a web server,erp system, web browser, accountg,legal,cybercafe ,school ,supermarket,text editor etc software how much math dyu need?
To write nairaland how much math is needed?
How much math is needed for compilers and parsers? Many hav been written without maths just plain old common sense and arithmetcs(primary/high school math).

It is all relatve.
For d most case math-heavy software is developed by major software corporation to make application developers use even less math for their work e.g
compilers, mathlab,maple (for math),autocad (CAD) software, game egines (Unity,Unreal), windowg systems, (Os dependent), sorting (as libraries in language).

note the bolded. cuz your conclusion are half baked and not thought thru.

asalimpo:
How much math do web devs, need?
How much math do 99.9% of business software need?
To create a web server,erp system, web browser, accountg,legal,cybercafe ,school ,supermarket,text editor etc software how much math dyu need?
To write nairaland how much math is needed?

I list some applications , most developers will be writing business apps for most of their career
also business apps are a large class of main stream applications . and then ask how much maths is required here.

to which you conclude they are ..

javanian:
..You are okay creating Average software that don't need maths

the two bolded above.
how you quickly sweep software i listed as not needing maths as Average software really beats me.
Then switching my first statement that Most developers dont need maths to me You are okay creating..
In essense you assert that non math heavy software are created my mediocres who are scared of maths and are
okay bla bla bla.
You call these reasoning?

javanian:
... and me talking from the standpoint of a computer science major

A computer scientist who cant reason his way around a simple argument.
those your fortran GOTOs you were taught are probably messing with your thinking.

javanian: where we are taught to create 'backbone/foundation' softwares where application of certain aspects of maths are inevitable. How can i understand/implement Network and Graph theory without understanding discrete mathematics and numerical analysis?

I had answered your question in an earlier post.
You just didnt read or were to rash in your reply to get my context.

asalimpo: More and more software is written to abstract more and more of d complexity away from from d average developer so tht the everyday dev, is more or less a component assembler.
This backbone/foundation software is where all the hard math is. Except ur writg domain specifc software and dnt know how to google for plugins ,framewrks,or hate readg source codes api's the heavy math has been taken care of-most of d time.

YOu learned the discrete maths for graph theory, and network analysis . great.
But before you write the code, sombody else would have written a library that takes care of this. And this kind of work would be automated.
I'm repeating myself here,because this is point i made earlier.

asalimpo: Except ur writg domain specifc software and dnt know how to google for plugins ,framewrks,or hate readg source codes api's the heavy math has been taken care of- most of d time.

note the word most . Most of the time, a graph library that meets all your needs would have been written and available
. Most of the time, a dsp library would be available tht meets all your needs.
Most of the time a lexer and scanner (and or generators) would be availabel for your automata needs.
Most of the time machine learning libraries would be available for your needs.
Most of the time statistical packages would be there that meets 99% of your needs.
Most of the maths you'll learn in school, ar just good to know - you may never implement new softwre in it,
cuz they've been done long ago. Would you go and write a dsp library? taking years to write one that would be bug full and use it for production code? when a stable version thoroughly tested one is online?
You can write it for fun. sure but people also program operating systems for fun. just not for work.

javanian:
So you are free to stay in your comfort zone and use whatever works for you

You made that quote. Again jumping to conclusions that i'm advocating mediocrity.

Did you read this?

asalimpo:
math is useful and good to know but if ur wrk dnt require it, you may just b filling ur garage with byutfl junk?
The smart dev shud b adept at learng new material on a need-to-use basis. Instead of fill his head with high soundg,but useless (to his career/job) concepts

asalimpo:

Average software dnt need math no more. Business software needs zero math. Just common sense aka logc.

I spoke of a particular class of software - which forms the bulk most developers write for a living.
but you jumped to ...

javanian:
How can i understand/implement Network and Graph theory without understanding discrete mathematics and numerical analysis?

for the bulk of software developers write for a living does it entail graph theory, numerical analysis?
do you need it to write business software, abap/sap software, banking software, web servers/pages, etc?
if you wont then y should these class of dev's fill their head with the math?

But if suddenly you need to, and you google and can't find a library - how hard is it to learn the stuff you need
to get up to speed on the subject?
A point i had stressed earlier on but again, you didnt read in context you just hurry of a sarcastic criticism.

asalimpo:
The smart dev shud b adept at learng new material on a need-to-use basis. Instead of fill his head with high soundg,but useless (to his career/job) concepts.

You only ended up repeating your earlier claims and like i said earlier we are on two different standpoints, You as a programmer who is only willing to work with what is on the table, who believes that 99% of the best code the world is yet to see has already been written, hence making the better part of maths merely theoretical (call it sarcasm if you like ) and i a computer science major who thinks otherwise . Like i said, whatever works for you.

What's all this noise about maths

Truth is u need knowledge of at least secondary school maths.

Like i said previously, you are unable to reason your way around even a basic argument.
I said how much math do 99.9% of business software need? . This question, got u in knots.
You strt talkg of You i.e me, (mixing the subject of d question with the poser of d question- pathetic).

Next, you jump out of d domain in question business software/typical software to talk of graph/netwrk theory and d math it needs!

Then you classify examples of software i listed ( business/typical software) as "average software".
Software all pc users use on a regular basis!
Some of which are critcal software.
Then you shoot off claimg you're a computer science major and i'm advocatg mediocrity.
The course u read doesnt make you open minded. You simply have poor reasong skills, going by d responses and tangents you've gone off on this argument and ur tht advocatg stale technology in schools.

Like i said,
how much math does the average developer need?
How much math is required for typical/business software?

80% of most programmg careers will b spent writg business software. How much math will it use?
For d few tht will need highr math, how frequently will they need it?
For d most case a library wouldve been written - makg it even less necessary to apply d math u learned -professionally.
For the few 10-20% tht will need math (regularly),they'll b employed and paid to do so,by tech research corporations,
you interprete this as meang mathsy software isnt written by mere mortals (again displayg wrong deduction)
e.g google will hav engineers researchg new products and concepts (software like bigTable, hadoop is math heavy. Oracle will employ devs to research new ideas. Samsung will hire devs to optimize its phone os.
Boeing will need engineers too.
They need higher math here.
They need math because the tasks demand it? If ur processing 1billion request per day/hr you need efficient algorithms to keep your server on. But for d most part even this heavy math task would have been solved and freely available solutions abound to make save you to labour of re-researchg the problem again.
Once d problem/task has been automated non-sciency developers can work on d problem if it arises again.
Wen last did u write a function to generate random numbers/encrypter/file compressor?
How many devs will ever do so. Even those with phDs in cs?
For those tht will want to do so,how many will do it for a livg?
Infct, math-heavy software are commodities because once d problem is solved the solution bcomes publicly available. Business software cant be commoditized because business practces,climate and environment change daily.
).

If u cant get this ; you'll nvr get it and it has nothg to do with wat ur studyg computer science or not.

asalimpo: google will hav engineers researchg new products and concepts (software like bigTable, hadoop is math heavy. Oracle will employ devs to research new ideas. Samsung will hire devs to optimize its phone os.
Boeing will need engineers too.
They need higher math here.
They need math because the tasks demand it? If ur processing 1billion request per day/hr you need efficient algorithms to keep your server on.

Touché

Speaking of someone who accused me of quoting him out of context, you have just done your fair share of that. I never said you are an advocate of mediocrity and i never implied business softwares were average softwares. Sorry if i sounded condescending when trying to drive home my point, we are both scientist, we disagree to agree. I just disagreed where you said 80% of all the maths has already been implemented an most computer scientist would spend most of their career not applying the 'mathematical theories' they learnt in school hence i spoke of Network and Graph theory.

well, I guess this math question is always gonna rage on in the history of programming.
But like i say, they are hierarchies in programming. And the higher up the heirarchy one is the more math he needs to know. Like one developer stated online one time, at a stage some software are just pure maths in operation.

On the lower end are the heuristic-programmers(hp). But the hp's still encounter complexity (of a un/defined type with a softcore) and of course the scientific programmer encounters formal complexity (many millenial prize problems with $1m price tags are still unclaimed). but issue is most scientific coders look down on hp's. that's the point i was trying to stress.
Without maths the jvm can't verify programs before loading classes . it's essentially a proof machine in that regard. takes
phD level maths in some cases to write those stuffs. But some hp apps can be equally complex-just undefined and naive(due to lack of math training). - e.g the forum software running nairaland?! it's a complex piece?,emacs text editor (very complex award winning software but its still hp stuff) many parts many features. While others are well known domains with no advanced complexity - e.g accounting apps,text editors,browsers,web servers (needs only high school maths).
So maybe the issues in this kinda debates really is one of defining complexity its properties and shades and ranking it.
Deep down, hp's and scientific programmers (sp's) all use math. just that the hp's math is undefined?

This is Actually an Internet Argument.

Just Let Me Sit Back and Read my Oga's Comments.

*No Offence*

Why do we code? To bring about solutions! Some solutions for end users and some for developers who also code with pains. If you must be the one at the beginning of the chain-the top top developer, begin to love mathematics.

So what mathematics topics do we need..

Game programming maths is simple and elegant.

KvnqPrezo:
So what mathematics topics do we need..

First of all, matrices - transformations, null space, etc.

tundebabzy:

First of all, matrices - transformations, null space, etc.

Mehn only metrics I know oo

How can I get others

Transformations in matrices is just like saying functions in algebra. Spans, null space, matrix addition and multiplication, vectors, alternate coordinate systems are part of matrices.

tundebabzy:
Transformations in matrices is just like saying functions in algebra. Spans, null space, matrix addition and multiplication, vectors, alternate coordinate systems are part of matrices.

Cool

i don't need maths, am just gonna create my own game engine.

Hehe