Bush was helping before Kanye made his statements. In fact, while Kanye was busy on TV and dropping a new album Bush was down in New Orleans working.

Also, it's not Bush who is the first responder, it's up to the local city and state officials to come up with a plan.

FEMA isn't even a first responder program. It's there to provide aid and donate money when it's needed. They supplement the city and local government.

Also, did Kanye just make a blanket statment or did he back it up with facts?

Another thing: Peope were saying that the citizens of New Orleans should be evacuated. The Mayor did not even send out an emergency mandatory evacuation notificaction. Not once, nope, never. He only casually mentioned the people should leave 2 days before the hurricane hit.

Why didn't he leave someone in charge in New Orleans? Did you know that there was no person on site that was in command? No one to say: this is what we need and this is where we need it.

Did you know that majority of the states have an EEP (Emergency Evacuation Plan) but not New Orleans?
Did you know that the local government knew that the leeves where not strong enough to hold up against a surge in water?
Did you know that New Orleans was built below sea level and every one there knew it?
Did you know that they were warned that a tsunami could hit and the city would flood in the wake of Sri Lanka but they did nothing?

while you raise interesting points which may be valid in many cases, there are still plenty of problems. I just wanted an answer to my original question, which you still didn't answer but now you've just opened a huge can of worms.

- Original question: How did Kanye's statement negatively affect the victims of Katrina.

Everything else you said:

- The telethon did not start right after Katrina hit, it started more than a week later - despite the fact that everyone knew how bad the devastation was after day 1. So, even though at the time of the telethon Bush might have been helping, he was doing rubbish until then. If he could get up in the middle of the night for a braindead woman. . . what about the entire city of New Orleans? Also, Bush was NOT in New Orleans - not in the way you implied - he was flying over it, but as far as doing anything, he might as well have been watching the same video we saw on TV.

- Now, I understand that people being trapped in that situation can be blamed on a number of factors such as a lack of emergency preparation, people not evacuating despite the fact they live in a place that begs to be flooded at the slightest chance of a huge storm, etc, etc. So, yeah, you could blame the mayor and the state. . . but you can't blame most of the people. . . I don't know about you, but for me to travel somewhere requires planning and money - booking the hotel in advance and money to pay for it. For the lots and lots of poor people in New Orleans. . where the f**k would they have gone and how the f**k would they have paid for it?

- Kanye's busy dropping a new CD while the people suffer - so because he's doing nothing at that time, he can't say s**t. . .umm, what have YOU done for Katrina victims - I'm betting I can easily prove Kanye has done more than the aggregate of everyone registered on this forum.

FEMA isn't a first responder program - how is this a defense? New Orleans needed aid - which you rightly claim FEMA is supposed to provide, did FEMA provide it, NO. So, what is the point of saying this?


Let's say you have a kid. You warn the kid that if they play with guns, people could get hurt. You then goto work leaving your glock lying on the table. Your kid picks it up and shoots his friend. Guess who bares the most responsibility - you. Guess who should be responding as soon as they found out someone was shot - adults in the community. So, if your neighbors hear a gunshot in your house and do nothing, you will want them to have some responsibility for not responding in time to possibly save the kids life. You too as well are responsibile for not locking up the gun, despite your warning to a kid.

The mayor of New Orleans is at fault, the state of Louisianna is at fault, FEMA, and Bush. You cannot seriously make an argument that any one of those groups/people do not in some way share the blame for what happened before, during and after Katrina.

Now that we've established blame, the next thing to consider is motivation - you can blame the parent for being careless, but if the parent has left their gun unlocked lots of times before w/o any consequences - then you could say - they were lulled into a false sense of security. Bush on the other hand has not been this kind of slow responder - 7 minutes to respond to 9/11 (minutes, not days), quick to declare war on Iraq, quick to send millions to the tsunami disaster areas (within a couple days) and you want to seriously suggest to me that there was nothing wrong with waiting a week or more before actively doing anything for Katrina victims - BULLSHIT

So, what is it about this situation that makes Mr GW Bush's response different? The biggest thing that stands out - most victims are African American. Now, before you start anything about victim's of the tsunami not being waspish. . . just make sure you come with something good. . .

kamakula: Original question: How did Kanye's statement negatively affect the victims of Katrina.

How did it help?  It didn’t.  So, if it didn’t help, it hurt.  Bush was down there, flying over or not. He has to see with his own eyes the disaster so that he may know the gravity of it, not so?  He also went down there and consoled people personally.  Last I checked, Kanye didn’t come within an arms reach of them.

kamakula: The telethon did not start right after Katrina hit, it started more than a week later - despite the fact that everyone knew how bad the devastation was after day 1. So, even though at the time of the telethon Bush might have been helping, he was doing rubbish until then. If he could get up in the middle of the night for a braindead woman. . . what about the entire city of New Orleans? Also, Bush was NOT in New Orleans - not in the way you implied - he was flying over it, but as far as doing anything, he might as well have been watching the same video we saw on TV.

You thinking running a country is rubbish?  You think that Bush sits on his butt all day waiting for something to happen?  As for the latter half of this comment, refer to my first comment.

kamakula: Now, I understand that people being trapped in that situation can be blamed on a number of factors such as a lack of emergency preparation, people not evacuating despite the fact they live in a place that begs to be flooded at the slightest chance of a huge storm, etc, etc. So, yeah, you could blame the mayor and the state. . . but you can't blame most of the people. . . I don't know about you, but for me to travel somewhere requires planning and money - booking the hotel in advance and money to pay for it. For the lots and lots of poor people in New Orleans. . where the f**k would they have gone and how the <snip> would they have paid for it?

I am not blaming all of the people. Those who had family elsewhere could have gone elsewhere. Some just flat out refused to go anywhere.  Those who did not have a means to go anywhere should have been taken care of by the Mayor of LA!  An Evacuation Plan would have included a place where families my find shelter.  Again, this is done in majority of the surrounding states.

kamakula: Kanye's busy dropping a new CD while the people suffer - so because he's doing nothing at that time, he can't say <snip>. . .umm, what have YOU done for Katrina victims - I'm betting I can easily prove Kanye has done more than the aggregate of everyone registered on this forum.

I’ve done what was in my means to do.  I’ve donated money to the Red Cross and I’ve sent toiletries to those victims who have come up to my area to stay.  What have you done?

kamakula: FEMA isn't a first responder program - how is this a defense? New Orleans needed aid - which you rightly claim FEMA is supposed to provide, did FEMA provide it, NO. So, what is the point of saying this?

FEMA goes by what city officials or on the ground response teams are in charge. No one was left in charge. Everyone was there fending for themselves. The city council left it’s citizens to rot and started pointing the finger at every place other than the home management team: themselves.

kamakula: Let's say you have a kid. You warn the kid that if they play with guns, people could get hurt. You then goto work leaving your glock lying on the table. Your kid picks it up and shoots his friend. Guess who bares the most responsibility - you. Guess who should be responding as soon as they found out someone was shot - adults in the community. So, if your neighbors hear a gunshot in your house and do nothing, you will want them to have some responsibility for not responding in time to possibly save the kids life. You too as well are responsibile for not locking up the gun, despite your warning to a kid.

There you have a nice idea but it simply won’t cut it. You the parent should not have left any weapon so readily available to the children. You the parent should be responsible enough to leave that child or children in proper care. You the parent have no right to blame the neighbors for what happens in your household. That’s why it’s YOUR household. First and foremost the blame lies with you.

kamakula: The mayor of New Orleans is at fault, the state of Louisianna is at fault, FEMA, and Bush. You cannot seriously make an argument that any one of those groups/people do not in some way share the blame for what happened before, during and after Katrina.

Let’s go in order here. First and foremost the Mayor and Governor of Louisiana should take blame for their lack of proper action. (By the way, everyone is saying that LA is still a disaster area and strongly advise residence to stay out a while longer but the Mayor says “Don’t listen to the experts, come back!)

Secondly, FEMA, as I’ve said before, is not a first responder program. They do not have nurses, doctors, firefighters, or rescuers. They doll out money and supplies. The sooner they were able to get that done, the better. They were held up for a while because there was no one in the city to let them know anything. They were receiving reports that streets were impassable, destroyed, hopeless. They tried, the could do better, and they’ve demonstrated that through their effort during the Rita hurricane.

Thirdly Bush. He is the LAST person this should come to. It’s the way the chain works. But he also stepped up his game during Rita so I can’t say he didn’t learn a valuable lesson.

kamakula: Now that we've established blame, the next thing to consider is motivation - you can blame the parent for being careless, but if the parent has left their gun unlocked lots of times before w/o any consequences - then you could say - they were lulled into a false sense of security. Bush on the other hand has not been this kind of slow responder - 7 minutes to respond to 9/11 (minutes, not days), quick to declare war on Iraq, quick to send millions to the tsunami disaster areas (within a couple days) and you want to seriously suggest to me that there was nothing wrong with waiting a week or more before actively doing anything for Katrina victims - <snip>

Bush did not wait a week. He was down there within a few days. Many have also said that he was slow to offer money to the tsunami victims. You may be surprised to know that he was also scolded by “acting to slow” to respond to 9/11! I’m sorry that President Bush doesn’t jump at the snap of your fingers. I’ll be sure to let him know that you don’t appreciate that next time I see him.

kamakula: So, what is it about this situation that makes Mr GW Bush's response different? The biggest thing that stands out - most victims are African American. Now, before you start anything about victim's of the tsunami not being waspish. . . just make sure you come with something good. . .

I am so sick of everyone making this racial. It’s his country for crying out loud! Why wouldn’t he care? It just doesn’t make sense. Also, I see more African Americans playing the racist more than whites. Sad.

V

Huh, that doesn't make sense - saying that if Kanye's statements didn't hurt the victims, then it hurt them. That's like saying that since I didn't help a poor family starving in another country, I helped make sure they died. Or that because you didn't help stop the terrorists from getting onto a plane, you helped make the 9/11 attacks happen.

No, I don't think running a country is rubbish. However, the full time workers at the place I worked this summer don't get nearly the number of "vacations" president Bush seems to take. What do you think he was doing during Katrina? In DC working? Are you telling me he was so busy "running" the rest of the country, that Katrina just slipped his mind? This could have some vailidity if you could point to a general trend of good that Bush has done for this country. But I can't point to that. . .neither can Bush himself for that matter.

Aside for the bumbling idiot of a president - an evacuation plan would have places people could go for shelter? Not necessarily, an evacuation plan is just that, a plan to get people out, where they go, is still their problem. You can make places available, but it still depends on being able to get people there. There are plenty of logistical problems to such plans, but I won't attack here since you indicate that this is not what you meant.

As for what I've done, I've continued working hard in school - working towards my degree. The simple fact is, I have very little money with which I could do anything for anyone else. In fact, technically, at the moment, I have negative money. So, the best I can do is make sure I make the best of my education, so that in the future, I can have the resources to change the way things currently operate here (in the USA) and elsewhere (Nigeria is a great example) and slowly put an end to the foolishness that seems to permeate most of the upper levels in politics.

You're sad about seeing everyone make things racial . .hell, so am I. It doesn't change the fact that many things are. I'm not fully of the mind that Bush's sloth to action was racially motivated, but it is a pretty good suspect. As far as we being his own countrymen - bullshit. Nigerians will treat the brit or american tourist among them on average with more respect than their fellow countrymen. This is a characteristic of everyone, those who are closest to you tend to be treater worse. Not neccessarily a bad thing, but in this case, it was.

If only one percent of people of each race were racist - racism by whites is still a major problem in the United States for the simple reason that whites make up more than 75% of the population. I don't want to argue about racism or reverse racism here because we'll be on the same side for most issues, but there are times when there are few other (logical and reasonable) explanations.

Oh - I'm one of those who says Bush was slow to respond to 9/11. Maybe you've never seen the video of the man in florida reading some kids book with a class. The Secret Service guy steps up to him and whispers in his ear about the plane crashing into the tower. The man then stays in the classroom for a full 7 minutes before doing anything else. There was no HOLY SH*T, lets roll people, sorry kids, the president has to go. I'm sorry, but given the general competence that Bush tends to exude, each time something like this happens, it only further hurts him and makes it harder for you to say things like - well, maybe he was in shock or maybe he was strategizing with top officials. Cuz when the man opens his mouth, he says stupid things - and you know he actually means them.

Case in point - on a news channel a couple days ago - he's in TEXAS - yeah, his home state where he used to be GOVERNOR. He's asked a question about what he's doing down there. His response was something to this effect: I'm here learning about. . . about how the state government works and how they interact with the federal government. Yeah, I'm here studying this so I can know more.

WTF is that. . the man was a freaking state governor. . .he should KNOW how state government works. . not only should he know, he was in his own freaking state. The best I can come to saying that Bush shouldn't be held responsible: The man is an idiot - there is no way you could expect anything better from him.

Oh my.

No, dear. I'm not saying you helped a starving family die, but you didn't necessarily help either, right?

Bush has a HIGH STRESS LEVEL JOB and majority of his "vacations" are working vacations. Just because he's not in DC doesn't mean he's not working. Rumsfeld is hardly in the Pentagon but who'd suggest he's not working?

A part of an emergency plan is to make sure that the people have a place to go. You don't just say, EVACUATE and not have a plan on where they're evacuating to. LA has a boat load of public transportation since it's a "tourist trap" I know, I've been there. I've stayed there for a week and had no problem finding a bus to take me from one place to the next. How come buses weren't lined up to get the people out if they had no means of transportation?

Keep working on your degree. That's a wonderful thing. I'm in the midst of working on my degree as well.

We're both sad about racism. Good. At least we agree somewhere.

It's also funny how everyone says Bush is stupid blah blah blah. I've never seen them run a country. Obviously they think it's as easy as baking an apple pie. I'll leave that comment alone.

I'm sorry if I've missed aspects of your rebuttle, but as much as I'm enjoying this chat with you, I'm tired and still at work. Forgive me.

I understand that running a country is hard - but, compared to lots of other presidents, Bush has it easy. No matter what I may not like about the current government in Nigeria, I must admit they are doing pretty good with what they are working with and who is actually in it. Bush - is the president, his party rules the senate, and the house of representatives, the supreme court in the past ten years tends to rule towards the conservative side. This is one of the greatest times to be a republican president. And what good are we seeing come from that - very very little. I'm afraid that history will say that bush has squandered his presidency. There is so much that has happened, and so much that you can say is very well out of his control. But previous presidents have made a lot more progress against hostile opposition parties which were majority in the house or senate.

So, when we see this man taking a "vacation", yeah, we can understand that his job is a high stress job, we just don't think that he's been working hard enough to be stressed.

And sorry Vexxy, apparently I was still modifying my previous post while you were responding.

It's funny that you say that compared to other presidents Bush has it easy. The poor guy has had nothing but disasters to deal with ever since he got into office. 9/11 happened only 9 months of him taking office. The fact is that he's had it the worst.

I'd say that Nixon squandered the presidency via that whole watergate scandal
I'd say that Clinton squandered the presidency. He used it to sleep with interns and educate Bin Laden's family members at Yale University

I meant Bush had it easy in terms of being able to get his agenda written into law. My main beef with him is the lack of good output by his party or office and when ppl bring up the lies or partial truths they told, they claim to never have said it or didn't mean it. Maybe its a difference of ideology, like I don't think tax cuts for the rich will significantly benefit the poor, though people can argue that it would, but for the most part, I can't say that there are very many programs that Bush or his party has initiated in the past few years which if they survive would make this country a lot better. No child left behind is a great idea and if done right could work - in fact, I was in total support of it when I first heard him talking about it. But when you look at how it has been implemented, it is making things worse. It not that no child left behind is bad - giving parents the ability to make more choices about where their kids goto school is great - and this needs to happen in order to force bad schools to change. However, there are few programs in place to help bad schools make the transition, and what ends up happening is that those who can't afford the private schools or transfers - even with the aid from no child left behind, end up seeing it as something really wrong and see their school getting worse with no hope of it getting better.

I agree the Nixon squandered his presidency. But Clinton, no way. You can say he tainted or tarnished it with his affairs, but squandered, if it wasn't for Clinton, Bush would not have had the surplus to do half the things he wasted our money on.

I guess what I think needs to happen - in fact, kinda what I'm doing now - is people flesh out what they think is wrong with their current government, society, etc. Truely take the time to identify a problem, outline a solution, then start working through what could go wrong, what could go right, issues with getting your solution accepted - should it be open to all, should you kinda sneak it in.. and just plan this thing out. Then, 10-15 years from now, after we're all done with school and have gotten relatively successful in the world, we can start implementing our plans. It's hard for some guy every four years to come up with a plan that would show results in that amount of time or less - but that's what we expect from the presidency and congress.

I think though, the real people who are going to change this world will be us, ppl who have these arguments today and are setting ourselves up to solve the problems in the future. Since we're taking the time necessary to work out the solution, its not going to be a spur of the moment campaign thing. It's something we've thought about for years, debated with our peers, and have a pretty good idea of how well it would work.

I'm not even going to touch on that education arena. We have teachers who don't care. I've known teachers to pass kids out of their class just because they didn't want them to be sitting in there any longer.

And what's so wrong with requiring a teacher to have a degree in a field before teaching it to our kids? Surely you'd want someone educated teaching your children. The "all across the board" testing should go, I diagree with that wholeheartedly. We do also have an imbalance of education here. Two children with the same potential but located in different parts of the country to not have the same advantage and it's sad. Something must be done about that. NCLB was a good idea but it lacks a lot. More tweaking and it will be great.

Hum, surplus left by Clinton was made by the dramatic increase of taxes since he was in office. Democrats = higher taxes
Republicans= tax cuts

So of course it would look like a surplus under Clinton. I'm not discrediting what he did. He did a lot of great things not to be overshadowed by this very public affair, having the CIA train the taliban, the white water scandal, and everyone believing that it was really Hilary who was running the show.

Being a person in a position such as that requires you to make decisions that not everyone will like or agree with. But it does require you to make that decision and not be wishy washy. It takes a person of strong character and strong will which I see/have seen in both former president Clinton and President Bush.

What I find is that as outsiders we easily fall in the trap of the blame game and the "I can do a better job mentality" when we truly have no idea the amount of things thrown at them on a daily basis. We have no idea the hard decisions that they must constantly take and live with the outcome. Sure things can be better, they can always be better no matter who's in the leadership position. But you will never satisfy everyone all of the time. It's an impossible job. I'd also recommend doing a "tag-along" mission with someone in a high position to truly see what they deal with.

Until you walk in another mans shoes. . . . .

V

It's not just plain Democrats - higher taxes, Republicans - tax cuts; who gets the tax cuts in Bush's economy? everyone, the rich, the poor? - yep - those who already got money.

Training the taliban - not under Clinton, that was done when the US was still in the cold war against russia and russia was making inroads into afghanistan - look more towards carter or reagan for someone to blame.

I don't disagree that Bush is a man of strong character - in fact, he has to be one of the most supremely self confident men out there, or one who believes so much in his convictions, that nothing will sway him. In most cases, this would be a good thing, my problem is . . . it has not been a good characteristic of Bush. There are times when you think he should bend a little. . .

As far as the education thing goes, it seems we're on the same page.

kamakalua: As far as the education thing goes, it seems we're on the same page.

Thank God for small miracles!

It's tax cuts for all those around in the republican party.  At least I know I'm hardly rich but I'm bringing home a lot more since he took office.  Also, property tax has been cut which is great for me as well.

I agree when you say there should be time where he should bend a little but then we don't know everything that goes into every decision he makes and stands by.  Sometimes I wish that the police would bend a little when they pull certain people over but majority of the time it's done for a greater cause but we tend to only see the immediate.

V

Vexxy. . . what is another issue you feel strongly about. . we're running out of things to argue about.

Is that a good or bad thing?

I'm sure we'll find something else

wow you all had so much to say about this subject. It's so touchy. I'll tell you one thing it's sad because things are happening all over the world. This world is in transition rightnow and for certain the world is under serious judgment right now that man can not escape. We should be thankful for the mercy that has been extended to us as humans. We make so many era's in life everyday underminding G-D as if we created ourselves that we should be so much more thankful of each breath that we take. Life is beautiful.

Nobody talks about Katrina why are you guys still discussing about it

Katrina victims are still alive so why cant we talk about it.

Well, talk also about the recent hurricane Wilma that left many without power/electricity for weeks now in south florida.

Yes, I followed that. How are you sis? Did it affect your area?

vexxy:

Yes, I followed that. How are you sis? Did it affect your area?

Thanks for caring dear! Yes it did affect us a whole lot. We didn't have light for 6 days and no school for a week or so. It was terrible dear but I thank God that we survived it all.

Amen. You should know that I keep you in prayer all the time. Especially being down in FL during hurricane season! It will be over by the 30th (I think). Hopefully the rest of the time will pass without on more storm!

Thanks for all the positive comments about these disasters in USA.
Like all people and all countries, the USA is not perfect. But I am sure
everyone can think of a time when we have helped many countries.
Whether or not God is punishing us is not for any man to know, only God
knows this for sure. However, we all know that when people are hurt
and suffering we need to help in every way we possibly can. Prayer is
free and Nigerians have a great reputation for being powerful prayer
warriors and great Christians. Please keep praying for the USA and for
all these people who have lost everything.

Thank God for the great things he did for these people through the many
churches across the country. I am grateful that Christian churches provided
most of the help in the most crucial time.

All these disasters is a reminder that we should care more for others and be less caught up in buying more and more stuff we can't afford.

Because Katrina like disasters can happen any where. We should be grateful to God for our family and friends he has given us.
Most of all we should thank God for his mercy, love, and grace that he has given us through Jesus.

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