Yusuf Estes -
It should be stated at the outset of this work, that Muslims do not seek to put down or desecrete the Holy Bible. It is a matter critical matter of faith for Muslims to believe in the original revelations that came down to Moses, David, Solomon and Jesus, just as it is is important for Muslims to believe in the revelation of the Quran that came to Muhammad, peace be upon him. The key word here however, is "original." As we all know the origin of the Bible is clouded with centuries of copying, translating and passing down information, now long lost with only copies of manuscripts remaining to remind us of what once was the Bible.

Additionally, it should be noted that Muslims do not seek to destroy the Christians or Jews belief in the Word of God, rather it is an obligation for Muslims to call to what is right and to halt that which is evil. Certainly, causing the "People of the Book" (as the Quran refers to Christians and Jews) to fall into disbelief and leave off any faith in God at all, is the very opposite of the direction Muslims should take in presenting any comparison between Islam and what has come down in the past from the Almighty God. We only seek to bring about more light to the people seeking guidance and pray for all of us to be successful with our Lord in this life and in the Next life and we ask His Guidance and Support in doing so, ameen.

THE BIBLE
[Yusuf Estes]

Old Testament

There exists today a number of different versions in the ancient Hebrew language of the Jewish Book called the Torah [Law] and this is usually referred to in Christianity as The Old Testament. Naturally, there have been many different translations to a great number of languages over the centuries and one could not expect them to be identical in text or meaning. What we have in English today still remains somewhat similar to large amounts of these older documents.

New Testament

There are also different versions of the Gospel or what is commonly called The New Testament in the Koine Greek language and Latin and these also have many translations to even other langugaes. Even amongst the English translations there are great differences. To mention two very clear differences for example; the Catholic Bible [c. 325 A.D] contains 73 books in total, while the Protestant Bible contains only 66 books, and although the newer (Protestant version) was taken from the Catholic Bible even then these books do not match completely with each other. There is no common denominator for any of the many different versions of the Bible.

Dead Sea Scrolls

There have been a number of scrolls and parchments found in places surrounding what we call the "Holy Land" over the centuries, not the least of which are those often referred to as the "Dead Sea Scrolls" or as they are known to the scholars "Wadi Qumran Scrolls." These were discovered in the last century around 1930 and have been proven to be very ancient and could well be older than any other extant manuscripts. Much of what has been translated from these scrolls is similar to some of the oldest manuscripts, but there are still very important differences worthy of note. We would like to recommend some important reading on this topic at the end of this paper.

THE QURAN
[Yusuf Estes]

Quran Means "Recitation"

The word "Quran" means "that which is recited; or that which is dictated in memory form." As such, it is not a book, nor is it something that reaches us only in written form. The documentation in writting about the Quran has been preserved in museums thoughout the world, including the Topekopi Palace in Istanbul, Turkey, the museum in Tashkent, Uzbekistan and also in England. Keep in mind also, the Quran is only considered "Quran" while it is in the recitation form, not in the written or the book form. The word for what is written and held in the hand to be read by the eye is called "mus-haf" (meaning script or that which is written down).

Only One Version - Arabic

There are no different versions of the Quran in the Arabic language, only different translations and of course, none of these would be considered to hold the value and authenticity of the original Arabic Recitation. The Quran is divided up into 30 equal parts, called "Juz'" (parts) in the Arabic language. These are learned by Muslims from their very early beginnings as children.

Memorized by Millions - Entirely

The important thing to keep in mind about the Quran is the memorization and transmission of the actual "Rectiation" just as it came to Muhammad, peace be upon him, from the Angel Gabriel and was learned and memorized by his companions and they in turn, passed it down to their followers and continued in this way until we see today, over 10,000,000 (ten million) Muslims who have committed the entire Quran to memory. This is not a small feat. After all, how many other works of literary value have been memorized and passed down through so many generations, in the original language, without a single change in even one sentence?

Each Muslim Has "Quran" Memorized

All Muslims have memorzied a portion of the Quran in the Arabic language, as this is an important part of their daily prayers. Many Muslims have memorized large portions of the Quran from one tenth to one half to all of the entire Quran, and all in the original Arabic language. It should be noted, there are over one and a half billion (1,500,000,000) Muslims worldwide and only about 10% are Arab, all the rest are learing the Quran in Arabic as a second language.

God Speaks in First Person to Mankind in Quran

The Quran contains clear statements from Almighty God (Allah) and it is Him speaking to all of us in the first person. He tells of us our own creation, the creation of all that is the universe and what has happened to those before us and what is to become of us if we do not take heed of the warnings clearly spelled out in His Revelation. He speaks also to Muhammad, peace be upon him, to show that Muhammad, peace be upon him, is not making this up himself and even chastises Muhammad, peace be upon him, for making human assumptions rather than waiting for revelation in matters (ie.; surah At-Tahreem and surah Abasa).

Quran Mentions Itself

The Quran refers to itself as "The Quran" (The Recitation) and mentions that it is to all mankind and jinn (another creation of Allah, similar to humans in that they could make choices as to whether or not they would obey God's Commandments, and they existed before humans).

Quran Describes God's Nature Exactly

The Quran is clear on who God is and who He is not. There is no room left for doubt after reading the Quran in the Arabic languge: God is One. He is the only Creator, Sustainer and Owner of the Universe. He has no partners. He has no relatives; wives, children or offspring. He is not like His creation and He does not need it for His existance, while all the time the creation is totally dependent on Him. His attributes are clearly spelled out as the epitome of each and every one. He is for instance, the All-Knowing; the All-Hearing; the All-Seeing; the All-Forgiving; the All- Loving; the All-Merciful; the Only One God. There is never a contradiction to this found anywhere in the Quran.

Quran Challanges Readers

The Quran makes the clear challange, that if you are in doubt about it - then bring a book like it. Also, to bring ten chapters like it and then finally, to bring one single chapter like it. 1,400 years - and no one has been able to duplicate it's beauty, recitation, miracles and ease of memorization. Another challange for the unbelievers to consider; "If this (Quran) were from other than Allah, you would find within it many contradictions." And yet, another challange offered by Allah in the Quran is for the unbelievers to look around for evidences. Allah says He will show them His signs within themselves and on the farthest horizons.

Scientific Miracles in Quran

The scientific miracles of the Quran could not have been understood at that time, yet today we take for granted the many things included in the revelation of the Quran. Some include mentioning: The formation of embryo in the womb of the mother (surah 98); deep seas partitions; waters that do not mix; clouds and how they make rain and how lightning is caused by ice crystals; formation of the earth's mountains deep underground; orbits of planets and stars and moons - and even the mention of space travel (surah 55:33).
[Watch videos of world's top scientists commenting on the "Miracle of Science in Quran"]
http://islamyesterday.com/videos/science/

- COMPARISON of BIBLE & QURAN-
[Dr. Gary Miller- with Commentary by Yusuf Estes]

Bible is Collection of Writings -
Quran is Recitation From God to Muhammad (p)

Whereas, The Bible is a collection of writings by many different authors, the Quran is a dictation (or recitation). The speaker in the Quran - in the first person - is God Almighty (Allah) talking directly to man. In the Bible you have many men writing about God and you have in some places the word of God speaking to men and still in other places you have some men simply writing about history or personal exchanges of information to one another (ex: Epistle of John 3). The Bible in the English King James Version consists of 66 small books. About 18 of them begin by saying: This is the revelation God gave to so and so… The rest make no claim as to their origin. You have for example the beginning of the book of Jonah which begins by saying: The word of the Lord came to Jonah the son of Elmitaeh saying… quote and then it continues for two or three pages.

Compare this to the beginning of the Book of "Luke" begins by saying: “In as much as many have taken in hand to set in order a narrative of those things which have been fulfilled among us, (2) Just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us, (3) It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write to you an orderly account, most excellent Theophilus, (4) That you may know the certainty of those things in which you were instructed.

We see the author of the Book of "Luke" saying essentially, "Many people have written about things, it seems fitting for me to do so too.” "Luke" says it seems to him that as long as others are taking in hand to write something about it, even though they were eye witnesses to the whole thing, he feels that even though he was not, he still has "perfect understanding of all things from the very first."

Therefore this is only a letter from one person to another, neither of whom knew Jesus, peace be upon him, nor were eyewitnesses to any of what had taken place. [Y. Estes]

If you compare that to one of the four accounts of the life of Jesus, Luke begins by saying: “many people have written about this man, it seems fitting for me to do so too”. That is all… no claim of saying “ these words were given to me by God here they are for you it is a revelation”, there is no mention of this.

"Bible" is NOT in the Bible

The Bible does not contain self-reference, that is, the word 'Bible' is not in the Bible. Nowhere does the Bible talk about itself. Some scriptures are sometimes pointed to in the Bible, say: Here where it talks about itself, but we have to look closely. 2nd Timothy 3:16 is the favourite which reads: “All scripture is inspired of God” and there are those who would say, here is where the Bible it talks about itself, it says it is inspired of God, all of it. But if you read the whole sentence, you read that this was a letter wrote by Paul to Timothy and the entire sentence says to Timothy: “Since you were a young man you have studied the holy scriptures, all scriptures inspired by God” and so on… When Timothy was a young man the New Testament did not exist, the only thing that stems he was talking about are scriptures – which are only a portion of the Bible - from before that time. It could not have meant the whole Bible.

Bible Curses Church Fathers Who REMOVED Book of Revelations

There is at the end of the Bible a verse which says:

Rev 22:18 "For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book (Revelations): if anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book:
19. And if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, god shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. [Y. Estes]

“Let anyone who takes away from this book or adds to this book be cursed”. This to is sometimes pointed to me saying: Here is where it sums itself as a whole. But look again and you will see that when it says: Let no one change this book, it is talking about that last book, #66 (or is it #73 in the Catholic Bible?), the Book of Revelation. It has too, because any reference will tell you that the Book of Revelation was written before certain other parts of the Bible were written. It happens today to be stacked at the end, but there are other parts that came after, so it can not be referring to the entire book.

(Incidentally, according to different manuscripts much older than the King James Version, there are different words at the end of the Book of Revelation, so how would we resolve that matter? - Y.E.)

Note: The Book of Revelation was taken out of the Bible several times and then replaced and then taken out and replaced according to various Church Councils throughout Church history. Guess the Church Fathers didn't read the curse at the end of the book?

Whose Word Is It?

It is an extreme position held only by some Christian groups that the Bible – in its entirety - cover to cover is the revealed word of God in every word, but they do a clever thing when they mention this, or make this claim. They will say that the Bible in its entirety is the word of God; inerrant (no mistakes) in the original writings.

So if you go to the Bible and point out some mistakes that are in it you are going to be told: Those mistakes were not there in the original manuscript, they have crept in so that we see them there today.

They are going on problem in that position. There is a verse in the Bible Isaiah 40:8 which in fact is so well known that some Bibles printed it on the inside front cover as an introduction and it says : “ The grass weathers, the flower fades, but the word of our God stands forever”. Here is a claim in the Bible that the word of God will stand forever, it will not be corrupted, it won't be lost. So if today you find a mistake in the Bible you have two choices. Either that promise was false that when God said my word wont fade away, he was mistaken, or the portion which has the mistake in it was not a part of the word of God in the first place, because the promise was that it would be safeguarded, it would not be corrupted.

Are There Mistakes?

I have suggested many times that there are mistakes in the Bible and the accusation comes back very quickly: Show me one. Well there are hundreds. If you want to be specific I can mention few. You have for example at 2nd Samuel 10:18 a description of a war fought by David saying that he killed 7000 men and that he also killed 40000 men on horsebacks. In 1st Chronicles 19 it mentions the same episode saying that he killed 70000 men and the 40000 men were not on horsebacks, they were on foot. The point be what is the difference between the pedestrian and not is very fundamental.

How Did Judas Die?

Matthew 27:5 says that Judas Iscariot when he died he hung himself. Acts 1 says that, no he jumped off a cliff head first. If you study Logic very soon you will come in your course to what they call an “undecidable propositions” or “meaningless sentences” or statements that can not be decided because there is no contextual false. One of the classic examples sited is something called the Effeminites paradox. This man was Cretan and he said “Cretans always lie”, now was that statement true or false? If he was a Cretan and he says that they always lie is he lying? If he is not lying then he is telling the truth then the Cretans don’t always lie ! You see it can not be true and it can not be false, the statement turns back on itself. It is like saying “What I am telling you right now is a lie” would you believe that or not? You see the statement has no true content. It can not be true and it can not be false. If it is true it is always false. If it is false it is also true.

Well in the Bible at Titus 1:12 the writer is Paul and he is talking about the Cretans. He says that one of their own men – a prophet - said “Cretans always lie” and he says that what this man says is true. It is a small mistake, but the point is that it is a human mistake, you don’t find that if you carefully examine the true content of that statement. It can not be a true statement.

Who is the Author?

Now I come back to the Quran, and as I mentioned the speaker in the Quran is - in the first person - is God. The book claims throughout that it is the word of God. It names itself 70 times as the Quran. It talks about its own contents. It has self-reference. The Quran states in the first Sura after Fatiha that “This is the book, there is no doubt in it, it is a guidance for those who are conscious of God” and so on and so on… It begins that way and continues that way stressing that. And there is one very amazing statement in the Quran when you come to the fourth Sura 82nd Ayah which says to those who say Quran is something else than the word of God. It challenges them saying: “Have they not considered the Quran, if it came from someone other than God they will find in it many mistakes”. Some of you are students, would you dare to hand in a paper after you completed a research work or something at the bottom you put down there “You wont find mistakes in this”. Would you dare to challenge your professor that way?. Well the Quran does that. It is telling: If you really think you know where this came from then starts looking for mistakes because you wont find any. Another interesting thing the Quran does is that it quotes all its critics. There has never - in hundreds of years - ever been some suggestion as to where that book came from but that the Quran does not already mention that objection and reply to it. Many times you will find the Ayah saying something like: Do they say such and such and so, say to them such and such and so. In every case there is a reply. More than that the Quran claims that the evidence of its origin is in itself, and that if you look at this book you will be convinced.

Difference of Authority

So the difference in Christianity and Islam comes down to a difference of authority and appeal to authority. The Christian wants to appeal to the Bible and the Muslim wants to appeal to the Quran. You can not stop by saying: This is true because me book say it is, and somebody else would say something else is true because my book says differently, you can not stop at that point, and the Quran does not. The Christians may point to some words that it is recorded Jesus said and say this proves my point. But the Muslim does not simply open his book and say: No, no the Quran says this, because the Quran does not simply deny something the Bible says and say something else instead. The Quran takes the form of a rebuttal, it is a guidance as the opening says (Huda lil mutakeen). So that for every suggestion that the Christian may say: My Bible say such and such, the Quran will not simply say: No that is not true, it will say: Do they say such and such then ask them such and such. You have for example the Ayah that compares Jesus and Adam. There are those who may say that Jesus must have been God (Son of God) because he had no father. He had a woman who was his mother, but there was no human father. It was God that gave him life, so he must have been God’s son. The Quran reminds the Christian in one short sentence to remember Adam - who was his father ? - and in fact, who was his mother ? He did not have a father either and in fact he did not have a mother, but what does that make him? So that the likeness of Adam is the likeness of Jesus, they were nothing and then they became something; that they worship God.

Quran Invites - Not Demands

So that the Quran does not demand belief - the Quran invites belief, and here is the fundamental difference. It is not simply delivered as: Here is what you are to believe, but throughout the Quran the statements are always: Have you O man thought of such and such, have you considered so and so. It is always an invitation for you to look at the evidence; now what do you believe ?

Special Pleading of the Bible

The citation of the Bible very often takes the form of what is called in Argumentation: Special Pleading. Special Pleading is when implications are not consistent. When you take something and you say: Well that must mean this, but you don’t use the same argument to apply it to something else. To give an example, I have seen it in publications many times, stating that Jesus must have been God because he worked miracles. In other hand we know very well that there is no miracle ever worked by Jesus that is not also recorded in the Old Testament as worked by one of the prophets. You had amongst others, Elijah, who is reported to have cured the leper, raise the dead boy to life and to have multiplied bread for the people to eat - three of the most favourite miracles cited by Jesus. If the miracles worked by Jesus proved he was God, why don’t they prove Elijah was God ? This is Special Pleading, if you see what I mean. The implications are not consistent. If this implies that then in that case it must also imply the same thing. We have those who would say Jesus was God because he was taken up in the heaven. But the Bible also says the a certain Einah did not die he was taken up into the heaven by God. Whether it is true or not, who knows, but the point is if Jesus being taken up proves he is God, why does not it prove Einah was God? The same thing happened to him.

Clear Parts & Difficult Parts of Bible

I wrote to a man one time, who wrote a book about Christianity and I had some of the objections I mentioned to you now. And his reply to me was that I am making matters difficult to myself, that there are portions in the Bible that are crystal clear and that there are portions that are difficult, and that my problem was that I am looking at the difficult part instead of the clear parts. The problem is that this is an exercise in self deception - why are some parts clear and some parts difficult? It is because somebody decided what this clearly means, now that makes this very difficult. To give you an example, John Chapter 14 a certain man said to Jesus: Show us God, and Jesus said: If you have seen me you have seen God. Now without reading on the Christian will say: See Jesus claimed to be God, he said if you have seen me you have seen God. If that is crystal clear then you have a difficult portion when you go back just a few pages to Chapter 5 when another man came to Jesus and said show us God and he said you have never seen God you have never heard his voice. Now what did he mean there if on the other occasion he meant that he was God? Obviously you have made matters difficult by deciding what the first one meant. If you read on in Chapter 14 you will see what he went on to say. He was saying the closest you are going to seeing God are the works you see me doing.

Bible Does Not Claim Jesus Claimed to Be Son of God

It is a fact that the words “son of God” are not found on the lips of Jesus anywhere in the first three Gospel accounts, he was always calling himself the Son of Man. And it is a curious form of reasoning that I have seen so often that it is established from Bible that he claimed to be God because - look how the Jews reacted. They will say for example he said such and such and the Jews said he is blaspheming, he claimed to be God and they tried to stone him. So they argue that he must have been claiming to be God because look ! - the Jews tried to kill him. They said that’s what he was claiming. But the interesting thing is that all the evidence is then built on the fact that a person is saying: I believed that Jesus was the son of God because the Jews who killed him said that’s what he used to say ! His enemies used to say that, so he must have said it, this is what it amounts to. In other hand we have the words of Jesus saying he would keep the law, the law of Moses and we have the statement in the Bible, why did the Jews kill him ? Because he broke the law of Moses. Obviously the Jews misunderstood him, if he promised he would keep the law, but they killed him because he broke the law, they must have misunderstood him, or lied about him.

Writers of Bible - Out of Context

When I talk about the Bible and quote various verses here and there I am often accused of putting things out of context, to say you have lifted something out of what it was talking about and given it a meaning. I don’t want to respond to the accusation as such, but it doesn’t seem to occur to many people that perhaps those who wrote portions of the Bible in the first place were guilty of the same thing. Maybe they – some of those writers - believed a certain thing and in order to prove it quoted from their scriptures – the Old Testament, the Hebrew writings - quoted out of context to prove their point. There are examples of that kind of thing. In Matthew 2 it said that a king wanted to kill the young child Jesus so he with his family went to Egypt, and they stayed there until that king died, and then they came back.

When the writer of Matthew, whoever he was, because the name Matthew won't be found in the book of Matthew; when he described this event saying that he came back out of Egypt, he said: “ This was to fulfil a prophecy which is written” and then he quotes Hosea Chapter 11 “Out of Egypt I called my Son”. So he said because Jesus went to Egypt and then came back out of Egypt and we have this passage in the Hebrew scriptures “out of Egypt I called my son” Jesus must have been the son of God. If you look and see what he was quoting, Hosea 11:1 he quotes the second half of a complete sentence, the complete sentence reads: “When Israel was young I loved him and out of Egypt I called my son”. Israel the nation was considered as the son of God. Moses was told to go to Pharaoh and say to him: If you touch that nation of people, you touch my son; warning him, warning Pharaoh: don’t touch that nation, calling the nation “the son of God”. So that this is the only thing talked about in Hosea 11:1. “Out of Egypt I called my son” can only refer to the nation of Israel. I mentioned this point some months ago here in another talk, to which a young lady with us objected that Israel is a symbolic name for Jesus. You will have a hard time finding that anywhere in the Bible because it isn’t there. You can take an index of the Bible and lookup the word “Israel” everywhere the word occurs and you will find no where in any place that you can connect the word Israel with Jesus. But never mind - suppose it is true, read on, the second verse says “and after that he kept on worshipping Bal”, because this is what the Israelites were guilty of, very often they kept falling back into Idol worshipping. So if that “Israel” really meant Jesus and it means that Jesus is the son of God that came out of Egypt they must also mean that Jesus from time to time used to bow down to that idol Bal. You have to be consistent, and follow through on what it says. So the point is whoever wrote Matthew and Chapter 2 was trying to prove a point by quoting something out of context, and he undid himself, because if you follow through on it, it can not be so.

Quran Has Internal Evidences

Now I can come back to the claim the Quran makes that it has internal evidence of its origin. There are many many ways that you can look at this. As one example, if I single out somebody here and say: You know, I know your father - he is going to doubt that, he has never seen me with his father. He would say, how does he look like, is he tall short does he wear glasses? and so on, and if I give him the right answers pretty soon he will get convinced, “Oh yes, you did meet him”. If you apply the same kind of thinking when you look at the Quran, here is a book that says it came from the one who was there when the universe began. So you should be asking that one: So tell me something that proves it. Tell me something that shows me you must have been there when the universe was beginning. You will find in two different Ayahs the statement that all the creation began from a single point, and from this point it is expanding. In 1978 they gave the Noble prize to two people who proved that thats the case. It is the big bang origin of the universe. It was determined by the large radio receivers that they have for the telephone companies which were sensitive enough to pick up the transmissions from satellites and it kept finding background noise that they could not account for. Until the only explanation came to be, it is the left over energy from that original explosion which fits in exactly as would be predicted by the mathematical calculation of what would be this thing if the universe began from a single point and exploded outwards. So they confirmed that, but in 1978. Centuries before that here is the Quran saying the heavens and the earth in the beginning they were one piece and split and says in another Ayah : “of the heavens we are expanding it”.

Quran Has Exact Accuracy

Let me tell you about a personal investigation, it occurred to me that there are a number of things you can find in the Quran that give evidence to its origin – internal evidence. If the Quran is dictated from a perfect individual; it originates with God, then there should not be any wasted space, it should be very meaningful. There should be nothing that we don’t need that you can cut off, and it should not be missing anything. And so that everything in there should really be there for a specific purpose. And I got to thinking about the Ayah which I mentioned before, it says, the likeness of Jesus is the likeness of Adam. It an equation, it uses the Arabic word (mithel), it says Jesus, Adam, equal. You go to the index of the Quran, you look up the name ISA it is in the Quran 25 times, you lookup the name Adam it is there 25 times. They are equal, through scattered references but 25 of each. Follow that through and you will find that in the Quran there are 8 places were an Ayah says something is like something else, using this (Mithel), you will find in every case and take both sides of it whatever that word is look it up in the index and it will be lets say 110 times and lookup the other word and it will be said to be equal to the same 110. That is quite a project of co-ordination if you try to write a book that way yourself. So that everywhere you happened to mention that such and such is like such and such that then you check your index, filing system, or your IBM punch cards or whatever, to make sure that in this whole book you mentioned them both the same number of times. But that’s what you will find in the Quran.

Quran Provides Reason

What I am talking about is built on a thing that is called in Logic: Use and Mention of a Word. When you use a word, you are using its meaning. When you mention a word, you are talking about the symbol without the meaning. For example, if I say Toronto is a big city - I used the word Toronto as I meant this place Toronto is a big city. But if I say to you Toronto has 7 letters, I am not talking about this place Toronto, I am talking about this word - Toronto. So, the revelation is above reasoning, but it is not above reason. That is to say we are more apt not to find in the Quran something that is unreasonable, but we may find something that we would have never figured out for ourselves.

Unique Word Refers to Itself in Quran

The author of this sentence said if this book came from someone besides God then you will find in it many Ikhtalafan (inconsistencies). The word Ikhtilaf is found many times in the Quran. But the word Ikhtalafan is only found once in the Quran. So there are not many Ikhtilafan in the Quran, there is only one - where the sentence is mentioned. So you see how things are put together perfectly. It has been suggested to mankind: Find a mistake. Man could not get hold of a mistake, and he is very clever, because this sentence could also mean: Find many Iktilafan and so he quickly goes to the index to see if he can find many of them and there is only one, Sorry clever person.

[end of Dr. Gary Miller and Yusuf Estes]

Bible And Quran - Originally Both From Allah

Conclusion: Both the Bible and the Quran have come to us by way of Almighty God, then through His angel Gabriel and then to the prophets, peace be upon them. However, when the next step comes into play (that of the human beings faithfully transmitting it on to others and future generations) we find out that Allah has only perserved His Last and Final Revelation for all times. And He certainly did not need the humans to do that.

Respect For Holy Books

Muslims should respect the Bible because it does still contain some of the original teachings of Allah. But there is no need to go to Bible classes or purchase one to read to try to learn about what our purpose is here in this life. The Quran makes it clear that Allah has indeed, perfected our "way of life" for us and has conferred on us His favor and has chosen for us to submit to Him in Islam.

We would like to suggest to the non-Muslims to consider obtaining a Quran (order one free through our site if you like) and then investigate for themsleves what the Quran is really all about and what it might mean to them in their lives.

[Free Quran available at: http://islamtomorrow.com/free ]

Final comment from Yusuf Estes:

I would like to state that after years of studying the Bible and then learning the Arabic language to read the Quran as it was originally recited to Muhammad, peace be upon him, by the angel Gabriel, I have come to an amazing conclusion. It seems to me that the Bible and the Quran are most definitely from the exact same source and they compliment each other very nicely. In fact, it appears that the Bible does not contradict the Quran, except in the very same places where the Bible contradicts itself.

Thanks Man. I hope xtians read this and not thing we are always attaching the bible.

I dislike it wen pple quote pple.Give me ur idea.

Missy B:

I dislike it when people quote people.Give me your idea.

You think it just started today? Countless number of them come on the board, copy and paste articles that they saw online without understanding what they are doing.

Time someone researched into how Islam enhances education. You do be surprised how PLAGIARISM is eating deep into vast majority of them.

javalove:

Thanks Man. I hope xtians read this and not thing we are always attaching the bible.

why is the average muslim forever comparing the bible with the quran? has the quran no identity of its own?

@yusuf

go get a life dumb fool

Hello.
You definitely are entitled to your opinion.
It is true that there are mistakes in some versions of the bible.there however are many that have remained well preserved!
Let's not forget in a hurry that king James of blessed memory ordered the bible translated to his own understanding.
Some version of king James bible clearly stated this in many of their earlier copies.these mistakes where NOT,FROM GOD.they are from overzealous men.
Now to the Quran: i am opportuned to have read the bible and quran.have you read the hadith?some of the most intact and comprehensive writing about prophet Mohammad and the quran.advise you will find in these books will send you to "shockland" and keep you there for some time.
Prophet Mohammad's(peace be upon him) first wife,Khadija was a catholic,fact.
He killed forty co-traders of his to start his mission,fact.
He ordered that his tongue be cut out; a follower of his who went to war with him and plundered goods belonging to the enemy and dared inquire why the prophet who is supposed to be a servant of the most high was being so methodical with the sharing of the plunder.fact.
At his death,his youngest wife was 12years old.fact.
He fume's in the mouth and is thought to be epileptic,during his seizures,that is when he says words that are written on trees,leafs that where put to a book after his death.fact.
They waited till he died before they comprise the quran,fact.
He ordered that unbelievers be hung till they die,fact.
There are many more,so no religion is a 100% okay.
Why i believe in christianity more than any other religion is because christianity has thousands of years of preserved,true history!
Some books to read:the quran,the bible.who is this Allah.by G.J.O Moshay. the satanic verses.by Salman Rushdie.
The ayatollah in Iran then, offered a million dollars for his neck because of this book!
I still go to the mosque and church and i don't care a f**ck what you think about my religious life.
JUST KNOW THE TRUTH ABOUT RELIGION AND RUN YOUR OWN RACE.
James say so.

i'm soo sure none of u read dat post. una just dey run una mouth anyhow, read it, attack the post not the person or the muslims,

@James1

Hello.
You definitely are entitle to your opinion.
It is true that there are mistakes in some versions of the bible.there however are many that have remained well preserved!
Let's not forget in a hurry that king James of blessed memory ordered the bible translated to his own understanding.
Some version of king James bible clearly stated this in many of their earlier copies.these mistakes where NOT,FROM GOD.they are from overzealous men.
Now to the Quran: i am opportune to have read the bible and quran.have you read the hadith?some of the most intact and comprehensive writing about prophet Mohammed and the quran.advise you find in the these books will send to "shockland" and keep you there for some time.
Prophet Mohammed's(peace be upon him) first wife,Khadija was a catholic,fact.
He killed forty co-traders of his to start his mission,fact.
He ordered that his tongue be cut out; a follower of his who went to war with him and plundered goods belonging to the enemy and dared inquire why the prophet who is sopposed to be a servant of the most high was being so methodical with the sharing of the plunder.fact.
At his death,his youngest wife was 12years old.fact.
He fume's in the mouth and is thought to be epileptic,during his seizures,that is when he says words that are written on trees,leafs that where put to a book after his death.fact.
They waited till he died before they comprise the quran,fact.
He ordered that unbelievers be hung till they die,fact.
There are many more,so no religion is a 100% okay.
Some books to read:the quran,the bible.who is this Allah.by G.J.O Moshay. the satanic verses.by Salman Rushdie.
The ayatollah in Iran the offered a million dollars for his neck because of this book!
I still go to the mosque and church and i don't care a f**ck what you think about my religious life.
JUST KNOW THE TRUTH ABOUT RELIGION AND RUN YOUR OWN RACE. Cool
James say so.

Source please




@MissyB


What have you done to those that have been supplied in some threads?


@Pataki & Davidylan


Keep running your mouth instead of addressing the post. Bird of a feather.

javalove:

i'm soo sure none of u read that post. una just dey run una mouth anyhow, read it, attack the post not the person or the muslims,

What was there to read? He might as well just have given us the website link to save himself the trouble of copying and pasting.

babs787:

Keep running your mouth instead of addressing the post. Bird of a feather.

What is there to address?

babs787:

Source please

I'm wondering why you didnt request for "source" to all the nonsense Yussue eates fed you.

james1:

Hello.
You definitely are entitle to your opinion.
It is true that there are mistakes in some versions of the bible.there however are many that have remained well preserved!
Let's not forget in a hurry that king James of blessed memory ordered the bible translated to his own understanding.
Some version of king James bible clearly stated this in many of their earlier copies.these mistakes where NOT,FROM GOD.they are from overzealous men.
Now to the Quran: i am opportune to have read the bible and quran.have you read the hadith?some of the most intact and comprehensive writing about prophet Mohammed and the quran.advise you find in the these books will send to "shockland" and keep you there for some time.
Prophet Mohammed's(peace be upon him) first wife,Khadija was a catholic,fact.
He killed forty co-traders of his to start his mission,fact.
He ordered that his tongue be cut out; a follower of his who went to war with him and plundered goods belonging to the enemy and dared inquire why the prophet who is sopposed to be a servant of the most high was being so methodical with the sharing of the plunder.fact.
At his death,his youngest wife was 12years old.fact.
He fume's in the mouth and is thought to be epileptic,during his seizures,that is when he says words that are written on trees,leafs that where put to a book after his death.fact.
They waited till he died before they comprise the quran,fact.
He ordered that unbelievers be hung till they die,fact.
There are many more,so no religion is a 100% okay.
Some books to read:the quran,the bible.who is this Allah.by G.J.O Moshay. the satanic verses.by Salman Rushdie.
The ayatollah in Iran the offered a million dollars for his neck because of this book!
I still go to the mosque and church and i don't care a f**ck what you think about my religious life.
JUST KNOW THE TRUTH ABOUT RELIGION AND RUN YOUR OWN RACE.
James say so.

Are you talking about violence? there are about the same kinds of violence in the bible as there are in the koran, god in the bible ordered people to kill, maim and loot to the glory and honour of his name so what are you talking about?

English exam _{how many pages abeg cut story shot jo}

@poster javalove.
i'm soo sure none of u read that post. una just dey run una mouth anyhow, read it, attack the post not the person or the muslims,

Open your eyes javalove and read between the lines of oyoibadan's copy and paste.yes he scanned or copied those pages.he did not type them from his memory.
I have been in search of the truth all my life and know this;i have been on this religion reseach for over ten years and am still on it.
I wrote those lines from memory;i did not take one final look at my books or articles of reseach.and it is benefit of person(s)like you who apparently haven't read and digested or done your own share of religious research.
The men who wrote those books(on Islam and Allah)i investigated their backgrounds and found out that some of them were muslims before becoming christians and they weren't writing to spite muslims or from a biased point of view.they were very intelligent men who weren't writing for fame or gain though fame and gain came on them.
Know this too that i have read lot s of books and articles from muslim brothers;it is purely to spite christians and Jesus,WHY?
TRUTH is no one can question Jehovah for ordering the Israelite's of old to wage war against their enemies and his enemies.He is God and all his ways are just and he knew not sin,Alleluia!
My gross with the Catholic church and Islam is that they deffer worship that is due to God and God alone to lesser beings.even Jesus did not crave worship;he reminded people that he is from his father who is in heaven.and that the will of God be done!
If he wanted worship he won't say all those words.
And one thing i found out is that should a muslim say degrading word in front of a christian(about Jesus) he will hardly get angry to want to start an holy war.this is not so with most muslim brothers;they just get worked up and want to put that person(s)light out.
Change is the only condition that is permanent!

Thanks Man. I hope xtians read this and not thing we are always attaching the bible.

I am still yet to understand how it is that allah could be so historically incorrect. I understand the Bible may be viewed as not having all of history, but those are so long agao and even historians can't prove them but only come to theories, as documentation wasn't prevalent as it is today.

But the stories in the quran are historically wrong and they happened in a time when documentation was well known and well documented. Looking at the documentation only leads anyone with common sense to realise that the quran is very much made up by man or the devil deceived muhammad.

For example. How is it that Pharoah was to hang one of his prisoners on the cross when crucifixion was not invented until much later and then by the Romans for that matter.
<<"O my two companions of the prison! As to one of you, he will pour out the wine for his lord to drink: as for the other, he will hang from the cross, and the birds will eat from off his head. (so) hath been decreed that matter whereof ye twain do enquire", >> sura 12:41

I just don't see how an almighty can get history wrong.
I also don't see how an almighty can change his mind. so he isn't bound by his word? so he isn't trustworthy?
sorry but i don't see why God shouldn't be trust worthy?
all i feel sorry for muslims, because allah can easily change his mind and tell them that he doesn't want them in paradise anymore
infact it is highly possible he can ask them to become Christians.

the mere fact that allah isn't trustworthy should fear people.

My gross with the Catholic church and Islam is that they deffer worship that is due to God and God alone to lesser beings

Please prove to me that the Catholic church worships anyone other than God.

@~Lady~:

But the stories in the quran are historically wrong and they happened in a time when documentation was well known and well documented. Looking at the documentation only leads anyone with common sense to realise that the quran is very much made up by man or the devil deceived muhammad.

I will chalk up your statement about to the usual ignorance that is plagueing Christianity. You know what i mean?

For example. How is it that Pharoah was to hang one of his prisoners on the cross when crucifixion was not invented until much later and then by the Romans for that matter.
<<"O my two companions of the prison! As to one of you, he will pour out the wine for his lord to drink: as for the other, he will hang from the cross, and the birds will eat from off his head. (so) hath been decreed that matter whereof ye twain do enquire", >> sura 12:41

The word that is used for death in this verse is "Fa yuslabu." fa usually is so. And yuslabu means crucified. How cross is derived by you and your christian group in this particular verse, considering that shebu, which is cross in arabic is not mentioned in this verse? In Surah Nisaa, Allah says that And they did kill him (Kalabu) and they did not cricify him (Salabuu). Where is the Cross mentioned; Shebu? I will leave you, again to your usual ignorance. I know for a fact that you are wrong! Alhamdulillah, my mom is a Muslim.

I just don't see how an almighty can get history wrong.
I also don't see how an almighty can change his mind. so he isn't bound by his word? so he isn't trustworthy?

Put that in its proper perspective against the God Lord who Moses knew. Then compare it with the God of Post Jesus, who Paul and his gang invented and made into three personnels! Na you, woman that is pushing me to talk. I am happy for one thing; you are not a nun. Hopefully, the world will see your babies. Amin.

sorry but i don't see why God shouldn't be trust worthy?
all i feel sorry for muslims, because allah can easily change his mind and tell them that he doesn't want them in paradise anymore
infact it is highly possible he can ask them to become Christians.

If He wishes to test us. By the way, the Obas in yorubaland are called Kabiyesi. Kabiyesi means no one can ask him. If this is a title to mere mortals, should God the Immortal Creator of all have any less way to qualify Him? And remember Jesus was even mortal. According to you, he died. According to me, his death will occur in the future.

The untrust worthy label on God is created by you and yours. We in Islam know and already agreed and satisfied with His Supremacy, without any comparison. You are the one who needs somebody else to usurp His Authority so that He can forgive you.

the mere fact that allah isn't trustworthy should fear people.

How do you come to the untrust worthiness of Allah? Do you get that from the Muslims, or its one of the inventions of the Christian minds, again? Sisi, this one pass be careful o. You are already sold a bill of goods. And can shake it off, it seems. I will start praying for you, from now onward.

Lol@ how muslims try to appeal to my "invincible ignorance." CHEI!! LOL.

Who is appealling to your ignorance? Am sure the person or persons are not doing anything less than helping you. Afterall, your ignorance is what pushed you to believe in 3 gods!







[Quote]
Please prove to me that the Catholic church worships anyone other than God.
[/quote]

Is there a Fatima in your sainthoods? Check if Fatima, is not an Arab name. Check if your Fatima is not the Zara of Islam? Do you know the name of the wife of Ali bin Abi Talib? Do you know the name of the only daughter who Muhammad (AS), who was alive when he died? It is nothing short of Fatima. Check it out. Go read your Catholic story again.

And by the way, you pray to the statue of Mary. Thats nothing short of worship! Islam is open for you to enter the fold of Success. Take it up. Don't die as a Keferi. Ask mom. She will tell you what I mean.

@~Lady~: I forgot that all Christians worship, count it with me: Father god. Then son god. Then holy spirit god. I used spirit as my commitment to you, since you hate the word, ghost. But the spirit has no proper name, while you give father Yahweh or jehovah and son Jesus or Christ. Even though the son was supposed to be called Immanuel, show me a verse in all his earthly life where h was called Immanuel. You day make big mistake o.

Whats the minimum numbers of gods do you worship therefore of all these personalities. Abeg, make I hear words. Islam clothing is waiting for you when you are ready. I will buy you a wardrobe of Silk dresses. Muslim women dress good you know.

There will be a lot of Gold, diamonds (real rocks) waiting for you.

Hi lady.
The catholic church are faithful with one of their very popular prayer lines"holy mary mother of God pray for us"
Does God have a mother?or is Jesus God to them?
It amazes me how foolish most of us can get and sometimes remain in the name of religion!
The dark history of the church is simply about the Catholic church.
In God's holy name they perpertrated all the atrocities in the past.
The holy see that has passed on apologies on behalf of the Catholic church.
Should you do research on the history of the Catholic church;you won't go near that church.

As for you Olabowale.think before you rush to your computer to type and past.
The original Allah that was referred to in the Quran is not the same as widely being proclaimed now by very enligthend muslims.That Allah was the chief of 350 gods in the kabba in Mecca.
Don't just rush out in excitement thinking you have a new and explosive info for us.am sure i know the Quran more than you:for if you have trully read and studied the Quran you won't be this excited.

















'

@james1  
Sound so passionate, yet so wrong. Either your 10 years of "religious research" have been a total waste or you are just a "liar, liar, pants on fire"

How did you arrive at muslims worshipping a "lesser" God?

Please google "ALLAH" and read from a muslim website. Then come back to post and tell what/who you worship as a Christian.

Dear Ayinba1.
Pity you google things up,i don't.
I am not here to criticise.am here to show some of us who apparently are in the dark to sEE.
The good book admonishes:my people perish for lack of knowledge.

@James1

As for you Olabowale.think before you rush to your computer to type and past.
The original Allah that was referred to in the Quran is not the same as widely being proclaimed now by very enligthend muslims.That Allah was the chief of 350 gods in the kabba in Mecca.
Don't just rush out in excitement thinking you have a new and explosive info for us.

Brother, must you post without due verification? It is better to keep mute than posting hogwash which you wouldnt be able to defend and you should know that all of us would be accountable for what we say and do.

am sure i know the Quran more than you:for if you have trully read and studied the Quran you won't be this excited.

You really showed that you know nothing about the Quran and not even your bible because if you, you would not come here and post what you couldnt stand to discuss.

Pity you google things up,i don't.
I am not here to criticise.am here to show some of us who apparently are in the dark to sEE.
The good book admonishes:my people perish for lack of knowledge.

I can see that you lack knowledge and the best for you do to is to google it out and read. You shouldnt forget that your bible that says that 'my people persi hfor lack of knowledge' still go further saying 'prove all things and hold fast which is the truth'

I will chalk up your statement about to the usual ignorance that is plagueing Christianity. You know what i mean?

Don't you mean the ignorance of Christians, buddhists, zoroastrians, atheists, hindus, historians, infact the who world except Islam?
Yeah the whole world is ignorant of history and islam just happens to have it. Nonsense.

The word that is used for death in this verse is "Fa yuslabu." fa usually is so. And yuslabu means crucified

Even better. How can he threaten crucifixion when it wasn't invented until later on and then by the romans. Oh by the way, the cross is from the quran

Put that in its proper perspective against the God Lord who Moses knew. Then compare it with the God of Post Jesus, who Paul and his gang invented and made into three personnels! Na you, woman that is pushing me to talk. I am happy for one thing; you are not a nun. Hopefully, the world will see your babies. Amin.

Lol at your ignorance. So tell me how can a man who was persecuting Christians for the same thing that he taught change the same thing that he taught?
Please make sense of that.
Um one more thing, stop trying to play God, and stop being a pedophile. If I want to be a nun I will be one, and if I choose to marry it will not be you and my children will not be yours. You're sick.

If He wishes to test us. By the way, the Obas in yorubaland are called Kabiyesi. Kabiyesi means no one can ask him. If this is a title to mere mortals, should God the Immortal Creator of all have any less way to qualify Him? And remember Jesus was even mortal. According to you, he died. According to me, his death will occur in the future.

Unfortunately God is not compared to human kings. See human kings are very pompous and proud, all the more reason why allah is human. Only a human can try to put himself above and beyond everyone. Only a human will distance himself from his sibjects. He lacks character.
Um see your quran told me that Jesus did die and rise again, remember baby Jesus prophecying of his future. Yeah I brought that to your attention before you only skipped it. Please can you address it now. Thanks.
And also your quran tells me that Jesus died and that he will die again in the future. Do you need me to remind you of that too?

The untrust worthy label on God is created by you and yours. We in Islam know and already agreed and satisfied with His Supremacy, without any comparison. You are the one who needs somebody else to usurp His Authority so that He can forgive you.

Well then I feel sorry for you, because he can change his mind and decide to promise you only one virgin in heaven and all this time you were working hard for seven.
Infact he can change his mind and say that only those who have done evil will make it to heaven and those who have been faithful will make it to hell.

How do you come to the untrust worthiness of Allah? Do you get that from the Muslims, or its one of the inventions of the Christian minds, again? Sisi, this one pass be careful o. You are already sold a bill of goods. And can shake it off, it seems. I will start praying for you, from now onward.

No I get that one from common sense. If a person changes their mind they are not trustworthy and you cannot pay attention to their promises. You don't have to be a christian to know that one.
So how will you feel when he changes his mind and gives another interpretation? Don't tell me he won't change his mind and give another one, because you don't know that, he already told you that he can and will whenever he wants to and you have nothing else to do but adhere to him. so much for no contradictions huh.
So once again if he can't stay true to his word, how can you trust him.
You've been foolishly following revelations from the devil. Only he can be so pompous and proud. I liken this passage to him deceiving Eve when he says to her "you can be like God, you can know wrong from right, you can do whatever you want"
Well he wanted her to be like him and look, he shows his true colour in the quran.

Oh by the way make sure you pray hard, but I can assure you it won't come true. Why? your allah is dead.

Who is appealling to your ignorance? Am sure the person or persons are not doing anything less than helping you. Afterall, your ignorance is what pushed you to believe in 3 gods!

Point of corection, who is trying to appeal to my "invincible ignorance" invincible being the key word there, don't you even try to misquote me because I will disgrace you for it.

Is there a Fatima in your sainthoods? Check if Fatima, is not an Arab name. Check if your Fatima is not the Zara of Islam? Do you know the name of the wife of Ali bin Abi Talib? Do you know the name of the only daughter who Muhammad (AS), who was alive when he died? It is nothing short of Fatima. Check it out. Go read your Catholic story again.

No there is no saint named Fatima. Fatima is the palce in Portugal where Our Lady appeared to three shephard children. Get learned before you speak and show your ignorance please. It is Our Lady of Fatima. Meaning that is where she showed up. Just as you have Our Lady of Guadalupe, Guadalupe being the place where she appeared. So if you will please get it right.
Now with that being said, a name is not a restriction for sainthood. It is the person's life that is relevant. So if there is a Catholic that is named Muhammad and he lives his life for the Only One, true, and Living God (Trinity) and it is revealed to us that he is ever present with Our Lord in heaven then he may be a saint. A name has nothing to do with it.
You're just being petty here and grabbing for straws, you will do well to act your age.

And by the way, you pray to the statue of Mary. Thats nothing short of worship! Islam is open for you to enter the fold of Success. Take it up. Don't die as a Keferi. Ask mom. She will tell you what I mean

Point of correction, I pray to Mary and I ask her in my Prayer to pray for me and it is a very powerful prayer, just ask those who have witnessed it including myself. They will tell you. and um I told you before I will remain a kefir and will die as one. I will follow my Jesus wherever he goes. You say that's hellfire, then I will send you a drink form hellfire. Nothing can separate me from my God.

You don't like it, cry your eyes out.

@~Lady~: I forgot that all Christians worship, count it with me: Father god. Then son god. Then holy spirit god. I used spirit as my commitment to you, since you hate the word, ghost. But the spirit has no proper name, while you give father Yahweh or jehovah and son Jesus or Christ. Even though the son was supposed to be called Immanuel, show me a verse in all his earthly life where h was called Immanuel. You day make big mistake o.

Lol@ you. Get behind me satan.

Whats the minimum numbers of gods do you worship therefore of all these personalities. Abeg, make I hear words. Islam clothing is waiting for you when you are ready. I will buy you a wardrobe of Silk dresses. Muslim women dress good you know

One GOD. You got a problem with that. Unfortunately for you I am not a material girl and I don't believe in carnal things. I am not greedy.

There will be a lot of Gold, diamonds (real rocks) waiting for you.

*gasps* OH MY. Oh wait that's right I could careless for man made things. I prefer God thank you.

@Lady

Unfortunately God is not compared to human kings. See human kings are very pompous and proud, all the more reason why allah is human. Only a human can try to put himself above and beyond everyone. Only a human will distance himself from his sibjects. He lacks character.
Um see your quran told me that Jesus did die and rise again, remember baby Jesus prophecying of his future. Yeah I brought that to your attention before you only skipped it. Please can you address it now. Thanks.
And also your quran tells me that Jesus died and that he will die again in the future. Do you need me to remind you of that too?

Point of correction, the Quran did not say he was crucified and do you care to give me verses to butress your quote above from the Quran? I told you in one of the thread that we need to revisit this hogwash of his crucifixion.

Even better. How can he threaten crucifixion when it wasn't invented until later on and then by the romans. Oh by the way, the cross is from the quran

Do you term it crucifixion if someone didnt die when crucified?


No

I get that one from common sense. If a person changes their mind they are not trustworthy and you cannot pay attention to their promises. You don't have to be a christian to know that one.
So how will you feel when he changes his mind and gives another interpretation? Don't tell me he won't change his mind and give another one, because you don't know that, he already told you that he can and will whenever he wants to and you have nothing else to do but adhere to him. so much for no contradictions huh.
So once again if he can't stay true to his word, how can you trust him.
You've been foolishly following revelations from the devil. Only he can be so pompous and proud. I liken this passage to him deceiving Eve when he says to her "you can be like God, you can know wrong from right, you can do whatever you want"
Well he wanted her to be like him and look, he shows his true colour in the quran.

Do you care if supply you verses going against your emboldened words from your book and you would surely be ashamed of your bible?

Oh by the way make sure you pray hard, but I can assure you it won't come true. Why? your allah is dead.

Good, so you have now joined the league of those that have been speaking without facts all these while. I can bet it with you that your lies are going to be exposed further as we proceed. Now give your facts showing that Allah that created all things even you that is nothibg in his presence is dead.

The debate is just starting as a result of your blasphemous statement.

Watch out and support your post with facts be it from your bible or my Quran and not just story tellingin which you have not been able to refutev just like tyhe thread on trinity.

The thread on trinity where you and I have been discussed is still on and I waited for you to give me another verses after I have exposed the ones you linked to Jesus but you have not been able to do that and couldnt profer solution to the verses where Jesus distinguished himself from God. As we proceed, we will be teaching ourselves the real meaning and understanding of biblical verses but you shouldnt run when the going gets touch because you have murdered sleep with your lies as a result of your half baked Islamic knowledge.

Hi lady.
The catholic church are faithful with one of their very popular prayer lines"holy mary mother of God pray for us"
Does God have a mother?or is Jesus God to them?
It amazes me how foolish most of us can get and sometimes remain in the name of religion!
The holy see that has passed on apologies on behalf of the Catholic church.
Should you do research on the history of the Catholic church;you won't go near that church

"Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with you, blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb Jesus"
"Holy Mary, Mother of God Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death amen."

Now Catholicism 101.

The first line of the prayer is the greeting the angel gave to Mary when he saw her and announced to her that she was to conceive a child, whom we call Jesus. Now unless you are trying to say that the angel is wrong, I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT!!!

The second line, well thank God it doesn't say "I worship" and it only says pray for us sinners, you know just like you ask mummy and daddy to pray for you, but whom better than the Mother of the Word of God to pray for us.

It amazes me how people expect Christ to dishonour his mother, the woman who said yes to having him, who birthed him, nursed him, taught him how to walk, taught him his language, fed him, raised him, started his first ministry even when he didn't want to, was there with him no matter what, saw him on his way to his crucifixion, and watched him die, shed her tears on the foot of his cross. It amazes me how we expect him to dishonour his mother, yet we dare not dishonour our mother.
It also amazes me how we expect God to allow his Word to become flesh in a sinful woman's body. Don't you know that sinless cannot dwell in sinful. Mary had to be sinless, and she was sinless before conceiving Christ. She was "full of grace" before conceiving Christ, and she was "Hail"ed before conceiving Christ.

If you had the option of making sure your mother was in heaven, won't you make sure she gets there, or would you allow her to suffer corruption like everyone else?

We wish to honour our mothers but we don't expect Christ to honour his. He who honours the mother honours the Son.

Now as for the Mother of God part, unless you believe that Jesus is not God then Mary is the Mother of Jesus. Unless you believe that Jesus' human nature was separate from his divine nature, then Mary is the Mother of both the human nature and the divine nature. Mary gave birth to a person, and not a nature. She did not give birth to a human Jesus and then the divine Jesus just came out of nowhere and joined the human Jesus after his birth. He was God in her womb, making her the ark of the covenant, who appears in Revelation as a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and a crown of twelve stars, giving birth to the messiah. It was through her human nature that he was able to become human. She is also significant in that it took a woman to say no to God to bring about damnation, this is who we call Eve, therefore it had to take a woman to say 'yes' to God to being about the salvation to God, this is Mary. Mary brought about Jesus to the world, she had to say yes. Jesus is the New Adam making Mary the New Eve. There can't be a New Adam without a New Eve, Adam didn't act alone Eve was with him. It is also significant that Mary said 'yes' first before Jesus said 'Yes' to the Father's will. Eve said 'no' and then Adam said 'no'.
Jesus is both human and divine, without separation. If you believe this then Mary is the Mother of God.
The title Mother of God was not invented recently and neither was it invented to give Glory to Mary. The heretics argued that because Jesus was born of a woman he was not God. Mary was the factor. To put an end to it the Church declared Mary, Mother of God. To deny her the title is to deny Christ's divinity.

The dark history of the church is simply about the Catholic church.
In God's holy name they perpertrated all the atrocities in the past.

It also amazes me how ignorant people are of history. Oh no, forget the fact that Christians were persecuted wherever they went by the world leading to the spread of Christianity.
It also amazes me how people forget that the Crusades were a response to Christians being killed by Muslims and Christian churches being burnt to the gorund. For centuries christians sat back and accepted the atrocities being done against them, until the muslims burnt down the Holy Sepulchre.
Granted the crusades took a different turn from its purpose, but the world does owe a great deal of thank you to the crusaders because if not for the crusade, there will be no rule of law or any other law except sharia law and we will all be wearing turbans and screaming 'allahu akbar'. Everyone who did not want to be muslim would be wiped out.
We all wanna be politically correct. Rubbish, the truth is the truth.
We also forget that the Catholic church was persecuted by the Church of England (Anglican church) formed by Henry VIII because he wanted to divorce his wife and marry another and the Church won't let him and he also wanted to be the head of the Church. So those who refused to bow to him got killed (Catholics). It wasn't until his death that Mary his daughter decided to make Catholicism the Church of England again, that Catholics started persecuting protestants, dubbing her 'bloody Mary' but see everyone forgets what happened before that. They also forget Elizabeth I who avenged her father and started persecuting Catholics, but no one calls her 'bloody Elizabeth' nah instead she is queen in their sight.

Granted the Church has been less than perfect, but everyone wants to turn a blind eye to history and crucify the Church. All the more reason why I stay with the Church. It only shows that that's where Christ is. They persecuted his body then, they persecute his body now.

In the words of Archbishop Fulton Sheen (R.I.P.)

"If I were not a Catholic and were looking for the true Church in the world today, I would look for the one Church which did not get along well with the world; in other words, I would look for the Church which the world hates. My reason for doing this would be that if Christ is in any one of the churches of the world today, he must still be hated as he was when he was on earth in the flesh. If you would find Christ today, then find the Church that does not get along with the world.

Look for the Church that is hated by the world as Christ was hated by the world. Look for the Church which is accused of being behind the times as our Lord was accused of being ignorant and never having learned. Look for the Church which men sneer at as socially inferior as they sneered at our Lord because he came from Nazareth. Look for the Church which is accused of having a devil as our Lord was accused of being possessed by Beelzebub, the prince of devils. Look for the Church which, in seasons of bigotry, men say must be destroyed in the name of God as men crucified Christ and thought they had done a service to God. Look for the Church which the world rejects because it claims it is infallible as Pilate rejected Christ because he called himself the Truth. Look for the Church which is rejected by the world as our Lord was rejected by men.

Look for the Church which amid the confusion of conflicting opinions its members love as they love Christ and respect its voice as the very voice of its founder, and the suspicion will grow that if the Church is unpopular with the spirit of the world then it is unworldly, and if it is unworldly it is other-worldly. Since it is other-worldly it is infinitely loved and infinitely hated as was Christ himself. But only that which is divine can be infinitely hated and infinitely loved. Therefore the Church is divine"

I am not a part of the Church in the name of religion, it only shows your ignorance to think so and your assumption of all Christians. I remain in the Church because of God, and I know he is the true living God because I have seen for myself. Thank you.

Point of correction, the Quran did not say he was crucified and do you care to give me verses to butress your quote above from the Quran? I told you in one of the thread that we need to revisit this hogwash of his crucifixion.

Um the quran has baby Jesus saying that he will die and rise again. and no where did I say that the quran said that Jesus was crucified. Clearly that stance of muslims is well known. But here's the one about baby Jesus stating he will die.

Sura 19:29 Then she pointed to him. They said: How can we talk to one who is in the cradle, a young boy?
19:30 He spake: Lo! I am the slave of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture and hath appointed me a Prophet,
19:31 And hath made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and hath enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as I remain alive,
19:32 And (hath made me) dutiful toward her who bore me, and hath not made me arrogant, unblest.
19:33 Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!
19:34 Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt.

Do you term it crucifixion if someone didnt die when crucified?

No one has ever been on the cross that didn't die. The point is to die. So there is no way a person wouldn't die when crucified.

Do you care if supply you verses going against your emboldened words from your book and you would surely be ashamed of your bible?

You mean there is a verse in the Bible that states that God would change his mind? Go ahead show me and let me be ashamed.

Good, so you have now joined the league of those that have been speaking without facts all these while. I can bet it with you that your lies are going to be exposed further as we proceed. Now give your facts showing that Allah that created all things even you that is nothibg in his presence is dead

Go to the tomb of muhammad and you will see your allah dead.

The thread on trinity where you and I have been discussed is still on and I waited for you to give me another verses after I have exposed the ones you linked to Jesus but you have not been able to do that and couldnt profer solution to the verses where Jesus distinguished himself from God. As we proceed, we will be teaching ourselves the real meaning and understanding of biblical verses but you shouldnt run when the going gets touch because you have murdered sleep with your lies as a result of your half baked Islamic knowledge.

LOL. You never refuted it with any verse, you only showed how much you lacked understading of Christianity. Even you yourself were amazed at how the Christians won't give up christianity and I told you it's because it's the truth and because you've misinterpreted the Bible. You can try as hard as you want, you will only continue to misinterpret the divine. Sorry, but you haven't done anything. Oh yeah, I didn't see why I should continue the conversation with you when you avoided answering my questions. You wanted me to answer your questions but you refused to answer mine. de mama wey born you betta pass my mama? nonsense. you can't expect me to respect you when you don't respect me.

Lady,

Seriously one should not bother reading your posts. Your defence of Catholicism is pathetic. Maybe you need to take some time out and really understand your religion before you  start talking about Islam, the Quran or  Prophet Mohammed (pbuh)

Listen to yourself!
It's almost like you are ashamed and apologetic to be a catholic. It's not by  force, i know quite a number of Catholics that turned Protestant. Wetin eye  never see before?

First, you go all out attacking the Catholic apology to muslims and you sounded so confused and now you are converting the standard prayer of;

Holy Mary, Mother of God Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death amen."

to

Mother of the Word of God to pray for us.

And all because James1  asked you. James1, an internet id that you do not know if he's a 12 year old, a pious man, a psycho, or even a woman. You are quick to alter the Catholic prayer to please him.

See how strong your Catholic  faith is. Think about it.

Tell me one Catholic church that uses the phrase "Mother of the word of God" in their prayers.

Girl, please give yourrself a break, you need to remove the firewood from your eyes before removing the speck from another's

ayinba1:

First, you go all out attacking the Catholic apology to muslims and you sounded so confused and now you are converting the standard prayer of;

Its a fact, the catholic church is confused about islam. Didnt the last pope go pray at a mosque once?

ayinba1:

Holy Mary, Mother of God Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death amen."

to

Mother of the Word of God to pray for us.

Its the same thing - John 1 makes us fully understand that God = Word of God. No difference.

@

~Lady~:
No one has ever been on the cross that didn't die. The point is to die. So there is no way a person wouldn't die when crucified.

@Lady

Again see below, research a little before you post. This is just one out of a thousand modernday crucifixions!

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/04/070405-jesus-video.html

@davidylan,

Seriously one should not bother reading your postss. Your defence of Catholicism is pathetic. Maybe you need to take some time out and really understand your religion before you  start talking about Islam, the Quran or  Prophet Mohammed (pbuh)

Then why are you reading it and if it is a waste of your time why are you responding?

Listen to yourself!
It's almost like you are ashamed and apologetic to be a catholic. It's not by  force, i know quite a number of Catholics that turned Protestant. Wetin eye  never see before?

Yes seriously listen to me and realise that no where in there did I sound apologetic to be Catholic. I gladly and proudly spoke of the catholic faith. I also know quite a number of protestants and muslims who converted to catholicism, a lot of the muslims in egypt and the middle east are practicing catholics, they just won't show it, maybe you guys should go on a hunt for them. rubbish. oh yeah i was a protestant who converted to catholicism.

First, you go all out attacking the Catholic apology to muslims and you sounded so confused and now you are converting the standard prayer of;

did it hurt you that i spoke the truth? go cry me a river!!
and no i never reversed the apology, i only stated historical fact, reminding everyone of what happened. so while it may not have been a good thing to kill people, but it was a lot of good standing up for our faith and not watching idly by. it still doesn't change the fact that your quran is filled with evil passages

does it hurt you that islam isn't the religion practised everywhere? if it does go ahead and declare jihad, nonsense. coming here to do a tirade. go and learn about your own religion before you start speaking.

Holy Mary, Mother of God Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death amen."

to

Mother of the Word of God to pray for us

either you are illiterate in the english language and particularly reading or you are very blind.
this is what i wrote.

"Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with you, blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb Jesus"
"Holy Mary, Mother of God Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death amen."

You are also very confused because you lack understanding in the Christianity. Word of God = God. Basic teaching in Christianity, God did not exist without his word therefore his word is a part of him, therefore making the Word of God, God.

And all because James1  asked you. James1, an internet id that you do not know if he's a 12 year old, a pious man, a psycho, or even a woman. You are quick to alter the Catholic prayer to pleasse him.

See how strong your Catholic  faith is. Think about it.

Tell me one Catholic church that uses the phrase "Mother of the word of God" in their prayers.

Girl, please give yourrself a break, you need to remove the firewood from your eyes before removing the speck from another's

Why am I even bothering myself with someone who lacks understanding of her own faith, not to talk of mine. Girl when you stop your idiocrisy, address me. NEXT!!

@Lady

Again see below, research a little before you post. This is just one out of a thousand modernday crucifixions!

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/04/070405-jesus-video.html

This is why you shouldn't poke your nose in other people's converstations. We've been talking about the time of Christ, and here you are talking about recent times.
Also maybe you don't know it, but Christ's sides were pierced and he hung on the cross for hours. The other men's legs were broken to speed up death before being taken down.
Also the man is not hung or nailed to the cross to die. His point is not to die. The point of Christ's and everyone else that lived at that time's crucifixion was to die.

Its a fact, the catholic church is confused about islam. Didnt the last pope go pray at a mosque once?

tatafo, who send you work, always wanting to start strife.

oh yeah Jesus was confused too when he sat down with the sinners to eat abi?

@Lady,

of course you spoke the truth. Go back to that thread and see how you displayed your superior knowledge of the truth over the pope's. _shio!

I will not engage in trading insults with you, I believe you got my message and a lot of catholics reading your post cringe at the contents.

Again, the prayer phrase you changed, tell me which catholic church says "Mary, mother of[b] the word of[/b] God".

You are as confused and deluded as they come