dakmanzero:

People like @nferyn should please not annoy these people by attempting to have a discussion on such a matter. A true christian will simply become more and more irate as you continue, because he views you as a blasphemer, and resents you for attempting to drive him to blasphemy.

That basically means that, if anything that touches religion is being discussed, atheists should just shut up as we might offend Christians or other believers. This is a very slippery slope, as for some, everything is touched by religion.

dakmanzero:

Please discontinue this. If you are here and a christian, please do not throw insults at those who are trying to discuss among themselves, and do not simply sit around and proclaim 'it is a lie because it is a lie', because that only makes sense from *your own* point of view, as a true christian.

People can believe in anything they want, as long as they don't insult people for holding different beliefs. I've been called a fool on many occasions, usually with the disclaimer I don't mean to insult you, but the Bible says you are a fool. The Bible can say anything it wants, but an insult stays an insult. It's using different measures for different people: they can throw insults at atheists, but the moment you question anything of their beliefs, you're a fool, a blasphemer and I don't know what else.

dakmanzero:

It is ok to say ' i believe it is a lie and nothing can change that' because that is you affirming your faith. I beg of the Atheists to refrain from mocking or questioning the intelligence of people who say this. Religion is the most important thing in existence for those that practice it, and it must be respected.

I never question Christian's intelligence, unless I have a strong reason to do so.

dakmanzero:

On topic: Whether Jesus married or faked his death is immaterial to me- what matters is not how the man lived his life but the effect his life has had on the world. So I do not care. If he faked his death, it was done so masterfully well that an entire civilisation has grown around that idea, and we would be fools to attempt to discredit the idea that he died on the cross for our sins.

Why?

dakmanzero:

I would rather live in a world where Jesus is thought to have died on the cross, than one in which the entirety of Christianity is proven to be a gigantic lie, and human beings worldwide turn into rampaging godless savages.

False ditochomy. It's not either the Christian faith or rampaging godless savages. I'm not rampaging and I tend to believe I have my savagery under reasonable control.

to nferyn:

1) As for the comment about atheists shutting up while religious people discuss amongst themselves, that is exactly what I mean. You will notice that a statement I made later on could similarly be interpreted as christians and other theists should shut up when atheists are discussing amongst themselves.

The reason for this is that the logic of both sides is based upon an incompatible set of atomic presuppositions, or axioms. A christian believes thye Bible is the word of God, come rain or shine, which atheists obviously do not. Science-loving atheists base their decisions on logical axioms, which religious teaching, rife with contradictions and inconsistencies (from a purely logical standpoint) , flies directly in the face of.

So each side should ignore the other, but acknowledge and respect their existence, and differences in opinion.



2) As for the talk of christians insulting you, that is exactly what you get for attempting to discuss religious matters in a way that implies you do not accept the Bible as the sacred word of the eternal creator. Insults. Be grateful they are insults and not bullets or bomb explosions.


3) Nferyn, or the many other intellecvtuals who reject religious faith on logical grounds, may not become a rampaging savage when God is proven to be a fairy tale boogeyman, but the hordes of mindless masses currently dancing to the tune of the largest religious mobvements will. Nferyn, please do not assume this is not the case. That will indicate a naivete of proportions that belie the wisdom reflected by your previous postings. People are, for the most part, stupid, violent and completely unreasonable animals. If you remove the threat of eternal burning in the fires of Hell, the world will become a meat-grinder.

While all this argument is going on,what is Jesus doing?Sitting there grinning to himself?

spikedcylinder:

While all this argument is going on,what is Jesus doing?Sitting there grinning to himself?

Hahaha. He's probably crossing his legs.

Na wah o. Things dey happen for this NL o!!

dakmanzero:

to nferyn:

1) As for the comment about atheists shutting up while religious people discuss amongst themselves, that is exactly what I mean. You will notice that a statement I made later on could similarly be interpreted as christians and other theists should shut up when atheists are discussing amongst themselves.

The reason for this is that the logic of both sides is based upon an incompatible set of atomic presuppositions, or axioms. A christian believes thye Bible is the word of God, come rain or shine, which atheists obviously do not. Science-loving atheists base their decisions on logical axioms, which religious teaching, rife with contradictions and inconsistencies (from a purely logical standpoint) , flies directly in the face of.

So each side should ignore the other, but acknowledge and respect their existence, and differences in opinion.

So what you're saying is that any attempt to have a rational discussion with believers is bound to fail and that I should accept irrational behaviour and positions. Problem is that irrational people have power and have a tendency to (ab)use that power. I find the messianistic zeal of the born-again US president Bush quite scary to say the least.

dakmanzero:

2) As for the talk of christians insulting you, that is exactly what you get for attempting to discuss religious matters in a way that implies you do not accept the Bible as the sacred word of the eternal creator. Insults. Be grateful they are insults and not bullets or bomb explosions.

Holding a religious belief is thus a get-out-of-jail-free card. I should actually be grateful that my [i]insolence [/i]is not met with deadly violence? You really don't believe that yourself, do you?

dakmanzero:

3) Nferyn, or the many other intellecvtuals who reject religious faith on logical grounds, may not become a rampaging savage when God is proven to be a fairy tale boogeyman, but the hordes of mindless masses currently dancing to the tune of the largest religious mobvements will.

They'll always find some other irrational thing to believe in. In a mainly religious society, those people believe in witchcraft, miracles and the like. In a mainly secular society, those same people will believe in alien abductions. They will be irrational, but that won't turn them into rampaging savages. Same coffee, different mug.

dakmanzero link=topic=1678nd1.msg472919#msg472919 date=1152189251:

Nferyn, please do not assume this is not the case. That will indicate a naivete of proportions that belie the wisdom reflected by your previous postings. People are, for the most part, stupid, violent and completely unreasonable animals. If you remove the threat of eternal burning in the fires of Hell, the world will become a meat-grier.

They will always find some other thing to believe in. The world won't become a meat-grinder. Our current state of affairs is actually the most civilised in all of humanity's history.

Understand that when I talk about the positive effects of religion on civilisation, I don't mean personal peace and fulfilment, I mean the threat of eternal damnation in Hell being used to keep people in line.

I do not presume to tell you what to do. However my position remains that if you choose to contradict religious people to their face, be prepared for the results.

I am suprised about this thread and amused that people on Nairaland are taking ignorance as an excuse
I would advise that people read DAN BROWN'S da vinci code before misquoting him or passing wrong information around.This thread is not rigth and worth debating .
Seun i advise u ban/ penalise people passing wrong infos.
Information is a commodity so people should read if not that means our generation would continue to live on Hearsay.

Dem say Jesus na Makaveli ehhh ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ignorant pricks

The fact that most atheists were born religious (as in into christinanity especially) baffles me. They are just tired of going to church or being persecuted, mostly intelligent people anyway. Its just a pity their intelligence can't explain the future. With most of their facts scientifically based other than on assumptions or "FAITH", they can't be fooled (or at least not easily) - but I guess not this time around.
[s]Mind you I have no problem with them o, but I can't fold ma arms for long looking at this conversation heat up.[/s]

(First of all they said we came from monkeys, and we still have them around, where are the dinosaurs and the animals from which other animals came 2 be? Wiped off (extinction fa?)) - i'm not going into such details coz i used to think i dropped from heaven , let's save it - one of [b]those mysteries Atheism has no explanation [/b]for

The fact that they had a religious background or upbringing makes them freedomists and moralists which is good for all of us, but I don't bother about atheists below the age of 60. STOP DECEIVING YASELVES. (I'm not GAY O!)

If you are an atheist @ 60, they you are a true atheist, but if you are for no other reason than influence then your are just a follower, no just cause, no reason, then you begin to read books on The Grail Message amongst others.

Never mind, it's good when you've been there and done it, keep doing it, so you'll have a story to tell. But in the mean time, I think you should focus more on what's happening in the middle east and how to eradicate Terrorism instead of Jesus and Magdalene's baby, one of which is hmmn, (make i leave am).

manakins:

Seun i advise u ban/ penalise people passing wrong infos.
Information is a commodity so people should read if not that means our generation would continue to live on Hearsay.

Whatz wrong with this fellow?

A Forum is an open place to post both ignorant and well-informed opinions. When they meet and crease each other, then information will result. To ban and/or penalise the 'ignorant' and leave the 'informed' makes any forum an elitist platform.

Christino:

The fact that most atheists were born religious (as in into christinanity especially) baffles me.

That really depends on where you live. I for one did not grow up in a religious household. Why exactly does it baffle you?

Christino:

They are just tired of going to church or being persecuted, mostly intelligent people anyway. Its just a pity their intelligence can't explain the future.

So? Can you explain the future? Do you believe in predetermination?

Christino:

With most of their facts scientifically based other than on assumptions or "FAITH", they can't be fooled (or at least not easily) - but I guess not this time around.
[s]Mind you I have no problem with them o, but I can't fold ma arms for long looking at this conversation heat up.[/s]

What are you trying to say? I'm not following.

Christino:

(First of all they said we came from monkeys, and we still have them around, where are the dinosaurs and the animals from which other animals came 2 be? Wiped off (extinction fa?)) - i'm not going into such details because i used to think i dropped from heaven , let's save it - one of [b]those mysteries Atheism has no explanation [/b]for

There is very solid evidence for all you're saying here and we have sound theories to explain it. Point is, it's not an easy subject and you have to study hard to understand it.

Christino:

The fact that they had a religious background or upbringing makes them freedomists and moralists which is good for all of us, but I don't bother about atheists below the age of 60. STOP DECEIVING YASELVES. (I'm not GAY O!)

My view on life and our place in the cosmos is based on solid logical and evidentiary grounds. What does age have to do with anything like that. Maybe you can apply the same type of logic to the believers. Can you be a true Christian before you turn 60?

Christino:

If you are an atheist @ 60, they you are a true atheist, but if you are for no other reason than influence then your are just a follower, no just cause, no reason, then you begin to read books on The Grail Message amongst others.

Your point? Please apply the same argumentation to theists and you'll see it's vacuous.

Christino:

Never mind, it's good when you've been there and done it, keep doing it, so you'll have a story to tell. But in the mean time, I think you should focus more on what's happening in the middle east and how to eradicate Terrorism instead of Jesus and Magdalene's baby, one of which is hmmn, (make i leave am).

This is just a discussion. Are [b]you [/b]over in the Midle East fighting terrorism?

@ nfer
Christians know the future clearly, because before we were made, the future had been predicted. In fact the signs of the end times are written in the Bible, and they come to pass and are still doing so. You need not be a believer but reading some or ALL of the book of Revelation will give you an insight into that.
For once, read the books of Ellen G. White
I cannot determine your physical future, because Nuclear Weapons alone can destroy the world (U know that!), the spiritual future is the one you should be concerned with (it doesn't bother you anyway and i don't think it should)

Let's say you have 100 years to spend on earth (Atheists live long actually), but spiritually, you have millions of years to spend. Where you choose to spend it is none of my business, and to make it worse YOU ARE SAVED BY GRACE, not by works. So, many of the people standing up for Christ today would probably fall and not make it, but people like you, who are doubting Thomases change your minds at the "nick" of time and make it. I won't be surprised to see PAC in heaven, damn - thank God he believes in God.

I WAS ONCE AN ATHEIST - but now, I need no other Evidence (GIVE YOUR LIFE TO CHRIST and believe in GOD) Soddom and Gommorah did worse things than these.

E gba mi. A fool saith in his heart there is no God (there we go again), an atheist says "Who needs to be checked"

Come to think of it.
I'd rather go with billions of HOPEFUL people who have nothing to lose and at the same time gain eternity, than go with a small group of "HOPELESS (sorry, don't mean to be harsh or rude)" elites and die forever. As an educated and enlightened individual, which would you choose?

The bible made it clear. "Remember the Lord thy God in the days of thy Youth knowing someday you will account for all these things, coz the time will come when you will say I HAD NO PLEASURE IN THEM!"

Man, this is a heart to heart talk, I've been there - its HOPELESS, PESSIMISTIC and detrimental to the well being of a man. Read psychology books. END OF DISCUSSION.

Respect your creator (Like Fela Abami Eda Says). Pronto!
Think Of Bob Marley (Jah), Fela (Creator) and Tupac (God) and compare with them Beatles, Rolling Stone or Elvis Presley.
You scream "f**k the world" but you won't think of suicide, Christ is the Hope man. Safe. Pronto!

@ Christino

thx 4 your reply, it allowed me to understand your position more clearly. You may not see it that way, but to me it's a quick and easy solution to the complex problem that is the meaning of life. No need for works, grace will do the trick. No need for logic or reason, faith will do the trick. No need to worry about the limited time we have on this planet, spiritual eternity will take care of that. No need to worry about too much about suffering, injustice and pain in this world, there will be a reward in eternity.

Instant answers to the fact that there is no ultimate purpose. Dream the sweet dream of those that doubt not but are steadfast and focussed in their faith.
I am incapable of something like that.

omo , make we try use sense ma people, how person go fake death on top cross, ? u think say na holllywood?

No, dem think say na film trick - the type wey man pickin dey see for Hawaii Five '0, or Matrix Reloaded.

4get_me sup? Long tym no post! I hardly c u on oda threads.

@ topic, i guess if u read ur bible well, u dnt need no one to tell ya d gospel truth and we should all know that there are false doctrines around us, these are d last days!

@dominobaby,

How bodi? Na wa. Summer no gree me see road, lol. I'm very often on this segment of Nairaland because it's the easiest to deal with the heat. Anyhow, I'll repent and try to spread myself spatially in other threads. Hope u're keeping cool.

@4get
bodi dey inside cloth o. Am doing great.
Later then

abi o 4get me , no mind yhen o jare

What a question!

How many of you have either read the book or seen the movie?

They say religion demands faith while science demands proof.

I have seen the movie and if what the movie was telling is true based on reproducing certain parts of Israel in France and Netherlands to almost exact dimensions with churhces located at exact replicas then there is more to what we have in the bible.

That said, even if christianity is suspect, I will live and die a christian.

But it does not make sense for us to avoid learning or researching on anything as things may not be what they really are.

You stop learning the day you die. Or do I call this intellectual stubbornness, believing that what you already know is the correct thing and there is no room to learn more.

i believe its called one thing

ignorance

I really dont see any rational behind discussing God with someone who doesnt believe in God.

lioness:

I really don't see any rational behind discussing God with someone who doesnt believe in God.

That's the heart of the problem, isn't it? When a believer discusses God with a non-believer, to make the discussion meaningfull, you need to enter the (possibly) shared field of rational discourse. The problem is that the foundations of those beliefs are hardly ever based on rationality, but rather on faith and personal experience, which can never be accepted at face value by a skeptic.
AFAIC, rationality doesn't really come into the picture, only faith and rationalisation of that faith. Just don't call your belief rational, because it isn't.

My point exactly.
Now why wld i want to go on with this discussion?
We Obviously operate on different realms.

nferyn:

That's the heart of the problem, isn't it? When a believer discusses God with a non-believer, to make the discussion meaningfull, you need to enter the (possibly) shared field of rational discourse. The problem is that the foundations of those beliefs are hardly ever based on rationality, but rather on faith and personal experience, which can never be accepted at face value by a skeptic.
AFAIC, rationality doesn't really come into the picture, only faith and rationalisation of that faith. Just don't call your belief rational, because it isn't.

lioness:

My point exactly.
Now why would i want to go on with this discussion?
We Obviously operate on different realms.

We agree to disagree. Great. Just wish more people would be so blunt and open about it.

hey nferyn

glad to see you have realised what I was trying to tell you.

I described it as 'common context' but I prefer your term- shared field of rational discourse.

since such a thing is impossible, such a discussion should not take place.

pure logic is incompatible with faith, and the faithful will lose patience with one who refuses to exhibit such faith. The easiest way to see this in action is when a religious person calls a scientist 'ignorant' when it is obvious who it is that is wilfully refusing to use their brain. (the very definition of faith)

that said, I retain my faith and belief in God, and like I said earlier on, I dont bother reconciling it with my scientific studies. Since my standpoint is that the spiritual and physical are in completely different realms, I can believe that men were descended from apes AND believe that God breathed life into a clay statue that became my forefathe Adam at the same time. Both points of view are irreconcilable, but they serve different parts of my psyche.

The scientific knowledge enables me to combat ignorance, and deal more efficiently with the purely physica, while the religious *belief* is nothing more than food for my soul, to prevent me from spiralling into a pit of depression and lack of purpose. Christino may sound like a religious zealot blocking his ears and shouting 'LA LA LA I CANT HEAR YOU!!!' but his words do provide a little insight into the factors that create a need for religious belief.

Okay, let's get pessimistic now.

1. You wake up someday to discover that there was nothing like HEaven or Hell?

2. You wake up someday into the middle of moaning and yelling and gnashing of teeth and 1000 degrees C of Blue Flame?

It is either of the two, it's either religion is true or false, but won't you rather take the safer path? Logical, isn't it? and nothing is required of you than to be happy and make others happy.

So i gave up my Youthful Craze for a "SUPPOSEDLY" better "LIFE AFTER DEATH" if at all there'd be any.

Fans love the team and support them and are proud of them; FANATICS kill and maim and go to any length to defend their team. But in reality, and in most cases, the team needs not be defended by weapons, they prove their worth. (ENCODED)

Christino,

Pascal's wager is a rather weak argument for the existence of the Christian God.
Here's an interesting debate on Pascal's Wager

dats wot d da vin ci code was all about!
it's not real. dat's d whole point.

@ Nferyn,
Thanks for the link, I believe that was where my 2 points came from, preachers use them a lot too.

But the wager is still the bottom line. You either gain or lose. And the fact remains that one wager ends in a loss, one ends in a gain and there is a 50-50 chance. Which would be logical to choose, you should know?

You have been told, smoking can cause cancer. Condoms can prevent HIV AIDs. (though this is more realistic)

An open choice you know, i'm sure you chose the safer one didn't you?

Mind you, i'm not attacking your belief, i'm just telling you my experience. It's for you to reason with it or discard it. Thanks all d same.