just for 2 soldiers. how many people have died now?

israel should stop.

please          

You have successfully reduced the lives of the abducted soldiers to mere statistics.

. . .and the lives of the Palestinian and Lebanese civilians are what?

All lives are important. However as opposed to hamas and hezbolla, Israel isin't actually TARGETTING civilians. Believe it or not there are actually millions of civilians living in Israeli cities.

Israel isn't actually targeting civilians huh? Wow. Tell that to the family that lost 19 of its members on Sunday. . .

Chxta:

Israel isn't actually targeting civilians huh? Wow. Tell that to the family that lost 19 of its members on Sunday. . .

The IDF usually don't deliberately attack civilians (except maybe in the first Arab-Israeli war), but that doesn't mean that they care very much for so called collateral damage. The IDF is a very powerful army and batlle is very messy. The continued operations in the occupied territories will also effect the IDF when it comes to their sensibilities vis-a-vis civilians.
Now, if you compare that with the deliberate use of deadly force against civilians by Hezbollah, Hamas and Fatah, it becomes a little hypocritical to scorn he Israeli for their civilian casualties.

nferyn:

<Hijack thread>
Hi Ijebuman,

Sorry for not getting back to you, I went through a messed up personal experience and have been neglecting to keep in touch with a lot of people. I'll email you an update today
</Hijack thread>

no probs

nferyn:

The IDF usually don't deliberately attack civilians

Israel may not attack civilians directly but it adopts a collective punishment approach which affects innocent civilians, this policy rather than discouraging future attacks ensures more support for extremist groups like Hamas and Hezbollah.

ijebuman:

The IDF usually don't deliberately attack civilians

Israel may not attack civilians directly but it adopts a collective punishment approach which affects innocent civilians, this policy rather than discouraging future attacks ensures more support for extremist groups like Hamas and Hezbollah.

What I meant is that it's not their approach to deliberately target civilians with the aim to kill them. The collective punishment they use is targeted at property rather than at people, e.g. the buldozering of the houses of family members of suicide bombers. This is very different from specifically targeting civilians for the kill.
The whole situation is a catch-22 and Israel has a lot to answer for, e.g. they covertly supported Hamas against Fatah and the PLO a policy that is now coming back to haunt them.

The people in power don't care about us, their pawns, regardless of what they say on TV.

Seun:

The people in power don't care about us, their pawns, regardless of what they say on TV.

You can't generalise like that, but there's a definite influence coming from the reference social group those in power belong to and that ensures that they're not always empathical to the needs of the common people. That doesn't necessarily mean though that they consider us as pawns or that they have evil intentions.

There is no chess player that throws away a pawn unecessarily, but the key factor is that our lives are dispensable to these people who have power (military power, the power to kill) when something "more important" is at stake. That is what makes us pawns to them. Civilians can be sacrificed for their selfish "greater good".

fact

Seun:

There is no chess player that throws away a pawn unecessarily, but the key factor is that our lives are dispensable to these people who have power (military power, the power to kill) when something "more important" is at stake. That is what makes us pawns to them. Civilians can be sacrificed for their selfish "greater good".

All true, but you are wrong in characterising it as something selfish from their part. They usually genuinely believe to be working for the greater good and they're no monsters.

To all those talking as if Israel is made of angels, ever heard of Sabra and Shatila?

Chxta:

To all those talking as if Israel is made of angels, ever heard of Sabra and Shatila?

You're bringing up something that happened over 25 years ago? :rolleyes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/1381328.stm

Note Article published in 2001
"Nearly 20 years ago the man who is now Israel's Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, sent Lebanese militiamen into the Palestine refugee camps of Sabra and Shatilla. When they left 36 hours later at least 800 people lay dead after a rampage of murder, torture and rape.

The massacre provoked international outrage. In Israel itself 400,000 people took to the streets in the largest demonstration the country had ever seen. Ariel Sharon was forced to resign as Israel's defence minister. "

When the terrorists carry out an atrocity, the like minded Arabs don't demonstrate. Instead they come out of the street to celebrate Israelis being killed.

Then you're missing my point.

Both sides in this conflict are terrible. That's what I am driving at. Good you mentioned Sharon.

The Lebanese should ask for international help in expelling hezbollah or they will all be damned. In the current war on terrorism, hezbollah is on the wrong side.

Of course there on the wrong side, the less powerful side.

Might is right.

might is not always right. Hezbollah is a terrorist organization (at least that is what George Bush says) that is squatting in lebanon. They ought to be grateful but they go to Lebanon's neighbour to kidnap solidiers. They went to look for trouble and now the Landlord is paying the price for his squatter not even a tenant's mischief.

i love d fight lol isreal is bombin lebannon- vokal guy

Yeah, the killing of innocent civilians always brings out the 'love' in me too!

I just hope this madness doesn't spread to Northern Nigeria. We all know some of those folks don't need much of a reason.

Nutter:

i love d fight lol isreal is bombin lebannon- vokal guy

Yeah, the killing of innocent civilians always brings out the 'love' in me too!

I just hope this madness doesn't spread to Northern Nigeria. We all know some of those folks don't need much of a reason.

Once the military steps in everybody's lost in one way or another. They follow their own internal logic and it isn't humanitarian concerns that are on their minds. The thing is that Hezbollah knew perfectly well how Israel would react. They knew that they would provoke a disproportionate military response and that many innocent civilians would pay the price, yet they chose to sacrifice them for furthering their political cause.

To me They have every reason to attack Lebanon because they habour a terorist organisation and it is seen as a treat to Isreal as a Nation. Even syria and others arround them because it is the only way to defend themself as a Nation

Yeah. It's surprising how people talk about Israel and civilian deaths and ignore the fact that the whole objective of the terrorists is to achieve as many Israeli civilian deaths as they possibly can. Also they ignore the fact that Israel is actually warning people to leave an area their going to attack. They also ignore the fact that hezbolla is deliberately trying to target large cities and towns to kill people without warning. :rolleyes:

nferyn:

Once the military steps in everybody's lost in one way or another. They follow their own internal logic and it isn't humanitarian concerns that are on their minds. The thing is that Hezbollah knew perfectly well how Israel would react. They knew that they would provoke a disproportionate military response and that many innocent civilians would pay the price, yet they chose to sacrifice them for furthering their political cause.

I am not holding brief for Hezbollah. I am not holding brief for Israel. The killing of non-combatants is wrong. Israel is therefore, also culpable. Further, the fact that - by your own admission - Israel's response is disproportionate makes Israel more culpable.

Isreal's response is very proportionate; I wonder if Nigeria has the capability to unleash such violence on her neighbours.

otokx:

Isreal's response is very proportionate; I wonder if Nigeria has the capability to unleash such violence on her neighbours.

1. No it is not.

2. Nigeria is a banana republic. Our 'leaders' are more concerned with looting the treasury than they are with upholding territorial integrity. Ordinary Cameroun dey chance us. If na Niger Delta or MASSOB issue everybody go dey flex muscle. Such a crying shame.

Nutter:

1. No it is not.

Northern cities in israel are being carpet bombed by rockets so you're right. The Israeli response is not propotionate. A proportionate response from Israel will be to carpet bomb South Lebanese cities.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. All this started because of the kidnap of an Israeli soldier.

Nutter:

I am not holding brief for Hezbollah. I am not holding brief for Israel. The killing of non-combatants is wrong. Israel is therefore, also culpable. Further, the fact that - by your own admission - Israel's response is disproportionate makes Israel more culpable.

More culpable than whom? They're not the ones deliberately targeting civilians. If Hezbollah had the military capabilities of Israel, there would not be a Jew alive today. Hezbollah doesn't even blink when they say that they want to finish Hitler's unfinished business. If you have enemies with such a blind hatred that have as their ultimate goal your extermination, you're bound to lash out sometimes. The constant warfare and insecurity left Israeli's with a bunker mentality.

Mariory:

Northern cities in israel are being carpet bombed by rockets so you're right. The Israeli response is not propotionate. A proportionate response from Israel will be to carpet bomb South Lebanese cities.

1. They're not being carpet bombed
2. If you think that carpet bombing is a proportionate response agains rocket atacks, you're on the verge of being psychopathic.

but looking at the pictures in lebanon, it appears they are more developed than Nigeria.

Of course Civilians will have to die, because Hezbollah hides in the suburbs of Southern Beirut, and Israel can only do so much to protect civilians in Lebanon. They drop leaflets first and warn the civilian population to leave the area and then come back and bomb. I say if some civilians including Children have to die, so that Israel can uproot terrorist out of Lebanon, then so be it. They should continue to Bomb until their soldiers are released and in the process send a message to these militants that have made southern Beirut and the Bekka Valley their base. Once Americans are evacuted from Beirut and Lebanon, the full might of Israel will fall on Lebanon and Gaza. I am not ruling out bombing Damascus and maybe even Tehran. Assad has been put on notice. They Buzzed his palace last week and shattered some windows. Israel should do whatever it takes to uproot terror, and "Casualties of War" is part of life.

And by the way i am glad to announce that American Made Precise heat seeking 500LB bombs are been used to pound these locations in Beirut. At the end of this exercise, The Arab world will have learned a lesson in humility. Lebanon would have been a failed state if not for this bombing. The Irony of this conflict, is that Hezbollah will be weakened and Syria and Iran would be put on notice. Bomb on Dudes!!!!

Enough talking let us sit down and watch the bombs fall on these savages! Fox News has the best coverage if you ask me.

is fox news free to air?