Candour: [color=#000099]"Christianity started in Jerusalem as a movement.....It got to Rome and became an institution..... It spread round Europe and became a culture....it got to America and became an industry; a very big industry.....Rome, Europe and America exported their different versions to Africa and it became a hotbed of confusion....but Christ is coming back for a movement"[/color
.

May God help us

Candour: "Christianity started in Jerusalem as a movement.....
It got to Rome and became an institution.....
It spread round Europe and became a culture....
it got to America and became an industry; a very big industry.....
Rome, Europe and America exported their different versions to Africa and it became a hotbed of confusion....
but Christ is coming back for a movement"

May God help us

trustman:

Indeed Jesus Christ is coming back for his "ekklesia" (courtesy, BabaGnoni). He is not coming for a religion.

mbaemeka:

As per "God considers the heart more important than the words spoken" there could be no greater lie than that. Surely, what is to be spoken must first be believed in the heart first but (you will not experience the reality of it) until you speak it forth. Paul said with the heart man believes unto righteousness but you see he would never experience the SALVATION until he uses his mouth (Romans 10:9-10). That's what Paul taught us and Jesus had made references to it earlier when he said- If you believe in your heart (without doubting) and say with your mouth to the mountain- Move! it will.

nannymcphee:
God my dear, considers the heart first above everything
Mat15:18
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

mbaemeka:

As per "God considers the heart more important than the words spoken" there could be no greater lie than that.

Surely, what is to be spoken must first be believed in the heart first but (you will not experience the reality of it) until you speak it forth.

Paul said with the heart man believes unto righteousness but you see he would never experience the SALVATION until he uses his mouth

(Romans 10:9-10). That's what Paul taught us and Jesus had made references to it earlier when he said- If you believe in your heart (without doubting) and say with your mouth to the mountain- Move! it will.

nannymcphee:

God my dear, considers the heart first above everything

Mat15:18

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

mbaemeka:

Sure, What is to be 'declared' should be believed with the heart first and I said so.
But one will not experience the reality of what is believed except it is declared and that was the point I was getting at.
They work viz-a-viz.
I could believe with my heart that if I declared with my mouth "move!" the mountain will,
but if I do not actually say it out the Mountain would not.

BabaGnoni:


♬ And Tommy doesn’t know what day it is♩♪
♫ He doesn’t know who Jesus is or what praying is
♩♩ How can he be saved ♪♩
From the eternal grave?

- Tommy, by the way, is a "deaf, dumb and blind kid."

Sure, What is to be 'declared' should be believed with the heart first and I said so.
But one will not experience the reality of what is believed except it is declared and that was the point I was getting at.
They work viz-a-viz.
I could believe with my heart that if I declared with my mouth "move!" the mountain will,
but if I do not actually say it out the Mountain would not.

mbaemeka: For with the heart a man believes unto righteousness BUT with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation.

You're the Shakespearean, you should tell me. What does the word 'but' in English signify?

Candour:

Acts 10:44-48 KJV
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. [45] And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. [46] For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, [47] Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? [48] And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

While Peter was still speaking. While the Jews who came to preach to Cornelius didn't know what was going on in his mind about the message he was hearing, God broke protocol by sending the holy ghost on him and his household before Mr evangelist was through. Cornelius and his people were saved.

How will you explain this particular incident?

mbaemeka:

That's easy, How did the Jews know that Cornelius and his household were saved? How did they know the Holy Spirit had fallen on them?

Did they see the spirit enter or did they hear them SPEAK?

With the heart a man's believes and becomes righteous BUT with the mouth he confesses his belief and becomes saved. Romans 10:9-10

Candour:

Dont put the cart before the horse. See this sequence

Peter preached-Cornelius believed-God sent Holy Ghost-Cornelius spoke in tongues glorifying God

What saved Cornelius? The words he spoke AFTER the Holy Ghost came on him? When did he confess his belief in God for salvation through Christ?

mbaemeka:

You don't understand me. While preaching the gospel, Luke said the Holy Spirit fell on them and then they spoke in tongues and magnified God. I agree.

What I am asking Luke is how did he know the Holy Spirit fell on them? Wasn't it because of what he heard them SPEAK?

mbaemeka: Shdemidemi,

Mark 11:22-24 NLT

Then Jesus said to the disciples, “Have faith in God. I tell you the truth, you can say to this mountain, ‘May you be lifted up and thrown into the sea,’ and it will happen. But you must really believe it will happen and have no doubt in your heart. I tell you, you can pray for anything, and if you believe that you’ve received it, it will be yours.

Matthew 17:20 NLT

“You don’t have enough faith,” Jesus told them. “I tell you the truth, if you had faith even as small as a mustard seed, you could say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it would move. Nothing would be impossible. ”

Please explain these verses to me. I'll wait.

shdemidemi:
You didn't have to twist Paul's words to justify what you probably don't understand in another book. He was not speaking of commanding anything to life in that book, using such chapter for such purpose will be adulterating and playing down the essence of the chapter.
My bro.. The four gospel books are not doctrines written primarily to you and I, may be if you start to understand that bit, things will be clearer. These were books, Apostle Paul never saw before he started his ministry. The church as it is today was not built on what Jesus told the disciples but on what He said after His resurrection.
The four gospels are not the New Testament, they are the link between the old and the new. The New Testament kick started in full throttle after Christ rose, this brought about the dispensation of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus spoke to His disciples, He gave them power to wrought miracles as a prove to unbelievers and doubters that they were backed by God. Does God need to prove Himself today? No. The bible is more than sufficient.
From a Christian perspective, we were not the audience at the time Jesus was speaking these things. We can learn from everything that was said and written but they can't be practiced as if they were statements addressed to us for practice.
If anything must be practiced today, we must learn from the doctrine of Grace which accepts, take and trust God at His Word.
Bro, no man will make a mountain move today, we must stop the deceit and start dividing the word as instructed by scriptures.

Candour:

They heard them speaking in tongues glorifying God so of course that enabled them to know God had done it again.

The question is, when did this salvation happen? Do you agree they were saved before they started glorifying God or you believe they became saved only after the holy ghost came on them and enabled them to speak and glorify God?

At which point did they get saved? Before or after they spoke in tongues? Or during their speaking in tongues?

BabaGnoni: ^^^
He knows that, but just watch, you'll see the angle he's going to come out from

Image123:

What is this blanket yada yada? Of course, the reply has to have an angle.
Anyways, i read the Nora pdf (drumb take note).
i believe John Lake above his accusers. The accusations don't add up on many fronts.

Image123:

What is this blanket yada yada? Of course, the reply has to have an angle.
Anyways, i read the Nora pdf (drumb take note). i believe John Lake above his accusers. The accusations don't add up on many fronts.

Candour: "Christianity started in Jerusalem as a movement.....It got to Rome and became an institution..... It spread round Europe and became a culture....it got to America and became an industry; a very big industry.....Rome, Europe and America exported their different versions to Africa and it became a hotbed of confusion....but Christ is coming back for a movement"

May God help us

mbaemeka:

You still dont understand me. Assuming they said no word and just listened to the words of Peter and then Peter left, would Luke still say they were Saved? Or would Luke not say they listened to the words and then we left?

If you ask me when they got saved I will say when Peter heard them speak in tongues and glorify God. If you ask me why I will refer you to Romans 10:9-10.

Paul said you only get right with God through your heart but that you get saved through your mouth. What say you?

Candour:

Yes. They had the spirit of God which could have made them perceive or discern the man's belief

Acts 14:9-10 KJV
The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, [10] Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.

If Paul could perceive someone else's faith, Peter or Luke could have too and of course God would have perceived it too. In any case, if Luke had written that they left without mentioning their conversion, the loss would be ours as we wouldn't have heard that testimony, not Cornelius's because who validated their salvation? Peter, Luke or God?

When they spoke, the world knew they were saved. They were saved before the holy ghost came on them unless you want me to believe the spirit of God filled a sinner who then spoke in tongues and then became saved.

When they spoke, the world knew they were saved. They were saved before the holy ghost came on them unless you want me to believe the spirit of God filled a sinner who then spoke in tongues and then became saved.

I'll say the speaking part is for the benefit of the the world to confirm your salvation before the world as a form of witness to them

Jesus Christ, most times would say "only believe".

Do you think Rom 10:10 at variance with the below?

John 3:16, 18 KJV
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. [18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

How will the dumb get saved?

mbaemeka:

God (and His word) validates a man's salvation. What does God's word say?

As per Paul the scripture said Paul looking at the man steadfastly and perceiving that he had faith to be healed. The man already had faith in God he was already a christian listening to Paul teach about Jesus.

A man believes in his heart first, and becomes right but he has to OPEN his mouth to experience salvation. Cornelius and his household believed the message Peter preached and became right but when they OPENED their mouths to speak Peter and co could then tell they were saved.

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Philip could only baptize the Eunuch after he had expressed his belief.

When they opened their mouths to speak, that is when Peter could confirm they were saved. Speaking in tongues was the bonus.

It is not only for the benefit of the world; it is for the benefit of Heaven and hell too. Angels and demons have to know where you stand. That's how they could know the 7 sons of Sceva. Demons cannot read minds or see spirits. They observe our words and conduct. That's why WORDS are important- Very.


Philippians 2:10-11King James Version (KJV)

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Believing starts it: after we believe we get right but we must speak out based on what we believe. It is the spoken word that activates it if you please. That's why I made references to when Jesus said "If you believe anything [like Jesus is Lord of my life] in your heart (without doubting) and declare it with your mouth, you will have what you say". You will have the [Jesus is Lord of my life] when you SAY it.


Matthew 12:37King James Version (KJV)
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

On a serious note- dumbness is an evil spirit. If you cast it out in the name of Jesus, the person will speak out and be saved. But if one doesn't function on such level. You can make them make as much sign language or even writing the words out so as to confirm it. It is very important.

trustman:

Those who will listen will listen!
Acts 28: - 25 They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: “The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your ancestors when he said through Isaiah the prophet:

26 “‘Go to this people and say,
“You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.”
27 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’[a]

28 “Therefore I want you to know that God’s salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!”

shdemidemi:

You didn't have to twist Paul's words to justify what you probably don't understand in another book. He was not speaking of commanding anything to life in that book, using such chapter for such purpose will be adulterating and playing down the essence of the chapter.


My bro.. The four gospel books are not doctrines written primarily to you and I may be if you start to understand that bit, things will be clearer. These were books, Apostle Paul never saw before he started his ministry. The church as it is today was not built on what Jesus told the disciples but on what He said after His resurrection.

The four gospels are not the New Testament, they are the link between the old and the new. The New Testament kick started in full throttle after Christ rose, this brought about the dispensation of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus spoke to His disciples, He gave them power to wrought miracles as proof to unbelievers and doubters that they were backed by God. Does God need to prove Himself today? No. The bible is more than sufficient.

From a Christian perspective, we were not the audience at the time Jesus was speaking these things. We can learn from everything that was said and written but they can't be practiced as if they were statements addressed to the church for practice.

If anything must be practiced today, we must learn from the doctrine of Grace which accepts, take and trust God at His Word.

Bro, no man will make a mountain move today, we must stop the deceit and start dividing the word as instructed by scriptures.

nannymcphee:
wow, you're really a dispensationalist

nannymcphee:
There is a statement that's comes to mind "God has so many kind of kids"

if God doesn't need to prove himself how then can u show him to the unbelievers? by telling him stories from a book? Will that convince him? if Paul made this statement & u believe that the Christian should practice only what happened post resurrection of Jesus, what then should the present day Christian do & say?

1 Corinthians 2:1-4

1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power

should the present day Christian preach only in words or should the demonstration of the spirit & power follow?

Candour:
God validates a man's salvation and the word (Jesus) started the message in John 3:16. If Rom 10:10 seems to contradict it, we need to study more to find out why.
The lame man wasn't a Christian. Pls don't force scripture to say what it didnt say. It was a city that had NEVER heard the gospel. See the scripture
Acts 14:7-8 KJV
And there they preached the gospel. [8] And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked:
The man was hearing the gospel for the first time.
Is salvation required for holy ghost filling or not? Can an unsaved man be filled with the holy ghost with evidence of speaking in tongues?
Was Peter's confirmation needed by God before he could save Cornelius?
Does the devil and his demons have any part to play in my salvation? Will God withhold salvation if demons and angels complain they didn't hear me speak?
What about the times Jesus said "only believe"?
Mark 5:36 KJV
As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he saith unto the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe.
Luke 8:50 KJV
But when Jesus heard it , he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.
Was he wrong? Was he giving an incomplete message?
So if a dumb man doesn't write it out, he can't be saved? Is there any scripture that says writing it out can replace speaking it out?

WinsomeX: Acts 16:29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. 16:34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

The discussion between Candour and mbaemeka is very interesting. In the scripture text above, the Jailer asked what to do to be saved. Paul replied "believe". He didn't say believe and confess. He simply said believe.

John 3:16, said "he that believes... will have everlasting life" or be saved.

The Pauline epistles are popular for emphasizing Justification by faith, not Justification by faith and confession.

Are we not introducing a new dimension of "works" to the concept of salvation when we begin to emphasize "confession" as an essential part of salvation?

Or, at what point in the story above did the jailer become converted?

mbaemeka:

I am using a phone now and so would not have the time to Isolate your points one after the other.

If it appears to you or anyone that a contradiction might be imminent in scriptures then it is because you or anyone else is isolating the imports of the verses and not lapping them based on precepts which we are told to do.

Of course, in John 3:16 Jesus said he that believes in me will not perish but have everlasting life. The question that should follow is "How do I believe?". (Caveat: this word in Greek as used here actually means Faith). Jesus and Paul will then say, "you believe with your heart". Then a question that would follow is, "is it possible for someone to believe in his heart and then deny Jesus with his mouth?" And Jesus will say "Yes, that's why I said anyone who denies me in front of men, he will I deny in front of my Father" and if Jesus denies you infront of his father, it means you ain't entering into heaven.

Thus, believing (mental assent) + (declaring/Confessing) = Faith. And that's what Paul said in Romans 10:10.

Concerning the man that was impotent at Lystra. Maybe I need to take a few steps back to explain myself. In Acts 14:7 yes the bible says they had preached the gospel but then it puts a full stop. They didn't stop after that day and he didn't only preach once. How do I know? Because before verse 8 begins many well organised marginal bibles place the (Paragraph sign, written like an inverted P) to show that some period may have passed before the verse 8 happened.

In any case, Paul perceived that the man had faith to be healed. Which means the man had believed the gospel preached about Jesus and his power (through his name) to heal the sick. So when the man had believed that aspect Paul could perceive that the man now had FAITH to be healed. That's why when he told the man to get up the man responded without flinching.

In the real sense of the word an unsaved man cannot receive the Holy Spirit. But (if you speak in tongues) you will know that the Holy spirit doesn't possess a saved man and cause him to speak in tongues. He will only give you the utterance if you open your mouth to speak. That's what I am saying about Cornelius and his folks. They believed the message Peter preached (so they got right with God) then they opened their mouths to speak and their salvation became consummate. The fact that tongues came out was God's way of showing the Jews that the Gentiles were welcome into his fold. That was God's confirmation to Peter and not the other way around.

Angels and Demons don't confirm your salvation for God or what not. They can only tell you are saved when you speak. The Philippians 2 says every tongue is to declare/confess that Jesus is Lord-That's salvation.

God doesn't confirm salvation in our hearts. Paul said he confirms believing. When we speak he confirms salvation. That's why even though God knows our hearts and thoughts he still told us to pray. Jesus didn't pray in his heart- he always prayed out that's why people could record his prayer points.

In Mark 5:36 and Luke 8:50, those stories had nothing to do with salvation but we could still learn from them. The ruler of the synagogue came to ask Jesus to heal his sick daughter (he believed Jesus could so he acted by asking him to). Jesus was on his way there when people came to tell him not to bother as the girl had just died. Jesus then said to the man "do not be afraid: only believe". The 'believe' as used there had to be exactly what the man had already done in asking Jesus to come heal the girl in the first place. That's what I am talking about: the man expressed his faith by speaking to Jesus to come heal. Now they need more than healing- a resurrection is required. So Jesus tells the man to ONLY do what he had done before which was to "express his belief" that Jesus could do it.

What I said about the dumb man is that he must SHOW; ACT; EXPRESS his belief to become SAVED according to biblical accounts. Writing it down was my own addition. Indeed I said he should use as much sign language as possible to declare his faith for faith begins at the heart but ends up being expressed.

Afterall Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth SPEAKS. And Paul said we too having the same Spirit of FAITH believe and therefore we SPEAK.