"I've been a deep believer my whole life. 18 years as a Southern Baptist. More than 40 years as a mainline Protestant. I'm an ordained pastor. But it's just stopped making sense to me. You see people doing terrible things in the name of religion, and you think: 'Those people believe just as strongly as I do. They're just as convinced as I am.' And it just doesn't make sense anymore. It doesn't make sense to believe in a God that dabbles in people's lives. If a plane crashes, and one person survives, everyone thanks God. They say: 'God had a purpose for that person. God saved her for a reason!' Do we not realize how cruel that is? Do we not realize how cruel it is to say that if God had a purpose for that person, he also had a purpose in killing everyone else on that plane? And a purpose in starving millions of children? A purpose in slavery and genocide? For every time you say that there's a purpose behind one person's success, you invalidate billions of people. You say there is a purpose to their suffering. And that's just cruel."

http://www.humansofnewyork.com/post/90268158526/ive-been-a-deep-believer-my-whole-life-18-years

Please let's discuss this.

Pastor,

sorry this might sound silly o. But let me just blend in.

Every person on earth believe there is always a cause to something happening. . . .

Could that unknown, mystery, known cause be the God people give thanks to?

Does God feel how we feel?

Does God have faith? Can he experience faith? The travails and trials, the doubts? Does he completely understand the human experience?


If he does, if he understands what it means to hurt, what it means to cry because one feels hopeless, the fear of losing faith, why does he let this all happen?

If God doesn't intervene in man's affairs, what's the point of prayers or even acknowledging him?




Looking forward to a good discussion. I'll contribute what little I can.

the idea of a god does not make sense, religions that brought the theory are making it more insensible.

There is absolutely no reason for a god, no purpose for a god , and certainly no evidence for a god in the universe.

It never ever makes sense.

When somebody comes to preach to me about god, to be polite I just keep asking the person " Why".
Like , why do I need prayers to god, why do I need to go to church, why do I need to believe in god, why do I need god, why do I need heaven. why do I need everlasting life, etc ?

They simply have none or just kindergarten reasons for these common sense questions.

FOLYKAZE: Pastor,

sorry this might sound silly o. But let me just blend in.

Every person on earth believe there is always a cause to something happening. . . .

Could that unknown, mystery, known cause be the God people give thanks to?

I'm not quite sure about that claim in bold. I believe that there are many who believe that some events are truly spontaneous. ie. they have no cause.

If events can occur, eg a particle come into being out of nothing, spontaneously then it negates the need for a cause in all cases. what if the universe itself was a spontaneous occurrence out of nothing.

aManFromMars: Does God feel how we feel?

Does God have faith? Can he experience faith? The travails and trials, the doubts? Does he completely understand the human experience?


If he does, if he understands what it means to hurt, what it means to cry because one feels hopeless, the fear of losing faith, why does he let this all happen?

If God doesn't intervene in man's affairs, what's the point of prayers or even acknowledging him?

Looking forward to a good discussion. I'll contribute what little I can.

I suppose the whole idea of Christ incarnate is so that God can partake in the fullness of human experience. According to the bible Jesus did experience doubt. 'Father take this cup away from me ...'. 'My God, why have you forsaken me...'.

Perhaps the point of prayers is for our own sake. To help us organise our thoughts. It's like when you're told to write down what you want out of life. All of a sudden you find yourself thinking about your desires differently from how you thought before. You can dismiss some desires are not essential while you find that others come into focus clearer etc etc.

plaetton: There is absolutely no reason for a god, no purpose for a god , and certainly no evidence for a god in the universe.

It never ever makes sense.

When somebody comes to preach to me about god, to be polite I just keep asking the person " Why".
Like , why do I need prayers to god, why do I need to go to church, why do I need to believe in god, why do I need god, why do I need heaven. why do I need everlasting life, etc ?

They simply have none or just kindergarten reasons for these common sense questions.

It totally depends on what you mean by God. There are many foggy issues that are wrapped up into the concept of God and none of them are very clear in the mind of the people arguing both for and against.

That is a funny (and good) approach to people who come preaching God. Although ultimately that why question can be used to confound any proposition that is brought to you.

I guess that the ultimate answer to the why questions is that 'Because you want to, and the experience of not pursuing the urge to do something is an extremely unpleasant frustration and you don't like feeling bad'.

Pastor AIO:

I'm not quite sure about that claim in bold. I believe that there are many who believe that some events are truly spontaneous. ie. they have no cause.

I am getting you wrong somewhere around the word 'spontaneous'. When defined, it does not have anything to do with 'nothingness'. Maybe you would help me understand your stance on that word, would appreciate that.

Well from what I gathered from my dict, I found out that you are making effort to round up 'cause' as something from external source or influences. Though it is part of it but it is not complete without considering the internal force or cause.

Permit me to bring Online dictionary in.

spontaneous[ spon-tey-nee-uhs ]
adjective

1. coming or resulting from a natural impulse or tendency; without effort or premeditation; natural and unconstrained; unplanned:a spontaneous burst of applause.

2. (of a person) given to acting upon sudden impulses.

3. (of natural phenomena) arising from internal forces or causes; independent of external agencies; self-acting.

4. growing naturally or without cultivation, as plants and fruits; indigenous.

5. produced by natural process.

From definition;

1. We have impulse as the internal cause.

2. We have upon sudden impulse as the internal cause.

3. Vivid internal force or cause

4. Something within caused this; could be weathering, erosion, wind, unconscious human and animal factors or nature (soil minerals, and others)

5. By natural process. . .as the cause.

So my brother, from the definition above, something happening spontaneously do have a cause either internally or externally or both. Spontaneously does not have anything to do with nothing.

Pastor AIO: If events can occur, eg a particle come into being out of nothing, spontaneously then it negates the need for a cause in all cases. what if the universe itself was a spontaneous occurrence out of nothing.

Nothing here is rounded up in lacks of knowledge surrounding the event. Absence of evidence like they say is not evidence of absent.

When did particle come to be without a cause?

I don't know if we both view things from different angle, the origin of our universe lies on other universes (multiverse) relayed on the string theory which I will take as the cause of the singularity followed by internal influences that heated and banged the expansion of the said singular universe.

Nothing isn't real on it own. There is no proof that nothing ever even existed, let alone that something came from it. There is nothing like out of nothing. Something cannot comes out of nothing unless you prove otherwise. The truth is that there is always something but likely we don't know or perceive it.

Grant me another chance of adding Yoruba popular folklore about baldness, Igun and Akalamagbo;

Something caused baldness on Igun's head, something caused baldness on Akalamagbo's bottom. One faithful day, both of them proceed on a journey through the path that intercept at Eshu' square. They met themselves, greeted each other and left for their ways. As they were away from each other at a distance apart, Igun thanked that something for making him bald on head and not bald on bottom like Ajalamagbo. Akalamagbo did the same thanking that something that makes him bald on his bottom and not on head like Igun.


What is being thanked here is the 'something that caused effect - baldness'.

The story emphasis that there is something, cause and effect. Nothingness doesnt exist here.

The story shows if blended to our reality, someone that survived a bomb blast would give thanks to what cause his/her survival.

Something, everything is God whic people thank when condition warrant.

Pastor AIO: "I've been a deep believer my whole life. 18 years as a Southern Baptist. More than 40 years as a mainline Protestant. I'm an ordained pastor. But it's just stopped making sense to me. You see people doing terrible things in the name of religion, and you think: 'Those people believe just as strongly as I do. They're just as convinced as I am.' And it just doesn't make sense anymore. It doesn't make sense to believe in a God that dabbles in people's lives. If a plane crashes, and one person survives, everyone thanks God. They say: 'God had a purpose for that person. God saved her for a reason!' Do we not realize how cruel that is? Do we not realize how cruel it is to say that if God had a purpose for that person, he also had a purpose in killing everyone else on that plane? And a purpose in starving millions of children? A purpose in slavery and genocide? For every time you say that there's a purpose behind one person's success, you invalidate billions of people. You say there is a purpose to their suffering. And that's just cruel."

http://www.humansofnewyork.com/post/90268158526/ive-been-a-deep-believer-my-whole-life-18-years

Please let's discuss this.

Wow! Till I got to the end and noticed you were quoting someone else, I thought you were 58 years old.

@ topic

Lately...I got nothin'

texanomaly:

Wow! Till I got to the end and noticed you were quoting someone else, I thought you were 58 years old.

@ topic

Lately...I got nothin'

I think say na only me o

FOLYKAZE:

I think say na only me o

hehe yeah, I was thrown off for a minute there.

aManFromMars: Does God feel how we feel?

Does God have faith? Can he experience faith? The travails and trials, the doubts? Does he completely understand the human experience?


If he does, if he understands what it means to hurt, what it means to cry because one feels hopeless, the fear of losing faith, why does he let this all happen?

If God doesn't intervene in man's affairs, what's the point of prayers or even acknowledging him?




Looking forward to a good discussion. I'll contribute what little I can.

i think the whole idea of the incarnation is that God did suffer not just for us but with us.

He knows our suffering becos he experienced it, our doubt, our failings, he came to be with us.

I think paul makes a point in hebrews, "though he was son, he learn obedience through suffering", that experience make him a capable high priest cos he knows our weakness, he can trully be our intercessor.

Ubenedictus:

i think the whole idea of the incarnation is that God did suffer not just for us but with us.

He knows our suffering becos he experienced it, our doubt, our failings, he came to be with us.

I think paul makes a point in hebrews, "though he was son, he learn obedience through suffering", that experience make him a capable high priest cos he knows our weakness, he can trully be our intercessor.

It all depends on if Jesus was man or God. If he was GOD, then he was only just an 'actor' in his story. He never really experienced suffering in the sense that we experience them.

aManFromMars:
It all depends on if Jesus was man or God. If he was GOD, then he was only just an 'actor' in his story. He never really experienced suffering in the sense that we experience them.

all mainline xtians agree that he is both God and man.

He isn't just an actor, he did take on the nature of man. The was both God and man.

aManFromMars:
It all depends on if Jesus was man or God. If he was GOD, then he was only just an 'actor' in his story. He never really experienced suffering in the sense that we experience them.

I'm curious as to why you think he could not experience suffering as a God?

Ubenedictus:

i think the whole idea of the incarnation is that God did suffer not just for us but with us.

He knows our suffering becos he experienced it, our doubt, our failings, he came to be with us.

I think paul makes a point in hebrews, "though he was son, he learn obedience through suffering", that experience make him a capable high priest cos he knows our weakness, he can trully be our intercessor.

nonsense.....how can a God that can never die understand suffering? How can God suffer with us?

Death has no life to take from him
Time has no future to to run out from him


Your God is a philosophical monster. An abomination to human emotions.

A being that fears no death is death himself

texanomaly:

I'm curious as to why you think he could not experience suffering as a God?

He can not die. He is eternal. He doesnt fear death

Time cant run out from him. He controls time




How can he understand the fear that humans have when faced with death?


God is omnipotent....meaning that he can heal himself....just like how he healed sick people in the bible.


Pain is meaningless to God

Ubenedictus:

i think the whole idea of the incarnation is that God did suffer not just for us but with us.

He knows our suffering becos he experienced it, our doubt, our failings, he came to be with us.

I think paul makes a point in hebrews, "though he was son, he learn obedience through suffering", that experience make him a capable high priest cos he knows our weakness, he can trully be our intercessor.

Hey dude. . . .those hackers help loose from my trap on that 'catholism, Idolatory' thread. Whats up.

Regarding your post, I will like to simplify it with the fact that there is nothing like knowledge, suffering whatever. . . .it is all illusion.

texanomaly:

I'm curious as to why you think he could not experience suffering as a God?

Is there anything like suffering?

aManFromMars: Does God feel how we feel?

Does God have faith? Can he experience faith? The travails and trials, the doubts? Does he completely understand the human experience?


If he does, if he understands what it means to hurt, what it means to cry because one feels hopeless, the fear of losing faith, why does he let this all happen?

If God doesn't intervene in man's affairs, what's the point of prayers or even acknowledging him?




Looking forward to a good discussion. I'll contribute what little I can.

You are an atheist, right? If you are, then I'm impressed at the way you laid out your points. You captured my interest so I'm following your contributions though we may not agree but I admire your manner of presentations so far.

The.Big.Urban:



nonsense.....how can a God that can never die understand suffering? How can God suffer with us?

Death has no life to take from him
Time has no future to to run out from him


Your God is a philosophical monster. An abomination to human emotions.

A being that fears no death is death himself

maybe...but don't true believers think that this life is not the end and death is just a beginning. Are true believers really afraid of death, and isn't time eternal for such a person?

alexleo:

You are an atheist, right? If you are, then I'm impressed at the way you laid out your points. You captured my interest so I'm following your contributions though we may not agree but I admire your manner of presentations so far.

@ aManFromMars

How many times do I have to tell you what your gifts are?

texanomaly:

maybe...but don't true believers think that this life is not the end and death is just a beginning. Are true believers really afraid of death, and isn't time eternal for such a person?

Good,

Death equals to transition like the Yoruba people would put it.

And life = activeness.

Everything is alive in it own world.

Ubenedictus:

all mainline xtians agree that he is both God and man.

He isn't just an actor, he did take on the nature of man. The was both God and man.

There seems to be a general confusion about what defines a man among Christians.

In Genesis, we are told that God created man in his own likeness and image. Sin separated us from him and man died spiritually.

Is man the physical form or his 'spirit'?

What I find interesting about this particular doctrine is man was able to survive disconnected from God.


What/who exactly was Jesus? A God masked as a man? Or a man with divine abilities and claims to being God? How could he be God and man at the same time?

Can the 'creator' be contained by a mere physical form?

Pastor AIO: "I've been a deep believer my whole life. 18 years as a Southern Baptist. More than 40 years as a mainline Protestant. I'm an ordained pastor. But it's just stopped making sense to me. You see people doing terrible things in the name of religion, and you think: 'Those people believe just as strongly as I do. They're just as convinced as I am.' And it just doesn't make sense anymore. It doesn't make sense to believe in a God that dabbles in people's lives. If a plane crashes, and one person survives, everyone thanks God. They say: 'God had a purpose for that person. God saved her for a reason!' Do we not realize how cruel that is? Do we not realize how cruel it is to say that if God had a purpose for that person, he also had a purpose in killing everyone else on that plane? And a purpose in starving millions of children? A purpose in slavery and genocide? For every time you say that there's a purpose behind one person's success, you invalidate billions of people. You say there is a purpose to their suffering. And that's just cruel."

http://www.humansofnewyork.com/post/90268158526/ive-been-a-deep-believer-my-whole-life-18-years

Please let's discuss this.

Many people have this philosophy that "Everything happens for a reason with a cause"
I subscribe to that, for very good reasons too

If I am to survive a car accident I would count myself lucky, but what controls this "luck"

Watever it is I would give thanks o


But then when has life given the impression that the creator is all kind and loving??
Why do people still expect an all loving, giving good things God?
life is much more complicated

texanomaly:

I'm curious as to why you think he could not experience suffering as a God?

I'll post a question I posed to TomboGodson/joshTheFirst sometime back.

If Boko Haram asked you to sacrifice your life for the release of the Chibok girls, and you did so fully aware you'd come back to life after a day, would that still count as a sacrifice?

Would it be a greater sacrifice compared to one who who does so with no hope of resurrection?

aManFromMars:

I'll post a question I posed to TomboGodson/joshTheFirst sometime back.

If Boko Haram asked you to sacrifice your life for the release of the Chibok girls, and you did so fully aware you'd come back to life after a day, would that still count as a sacrifice?

Would it be a greater sacrifice compared to one who who does so with no hope of resurrection?

Precisely, the certainty of being resurrected diminishes the whole 'sacrifice.' In your Boko Haram scenario, the person being 'killed' would have literally tricked the kidnappers.

alexleo:

You are an atheist, right? If you are, then I'm impressed at the way you laid out your points. You captured my interest so I'm following your contributions though we may not agree but I admire your manner of presentations so far.

Thanks.

plaetton: There is absolutely no reason for a god, no purpose for a god , and certainly no evidence for a god in the universe.

It never ever makes sense.

When somebody comes to preach to me about god, to be polite I just keep asking the person " Why".
Like , why do I need prayers to god, why do I need to go to church, why do I need to believe in god, why do I need god, why do I need heaven. why do I need everlasting life, etc ?

They simply have none or just kindergarten reasons for these common sense questions.

You have failed. Your points are useless and a very silly way to come into this kind of discussion. Go and learn how to discuss this type of issues.

texanomaly:

maybe...but don't true believers think that this life is not the end and death is just a beginning. Are true believers really afraid of death, and isn't time eternal for such a person?

You mean true believers like al Qaeda, cuz they're the only ones who not only embrace death, but go willingly. Ask TB Joshua if he's ready to meet the Lord in 30 minutes and see how many excuses he produces.

aManFromMars:

I'll post a question I posed to TomboGodson/joshTheFirst sometime back.

If Boko Haram asked you to sacrifice your life for the release of the Chibok girls, and you did so fully aware you'd come back to life after a day, would that still count as a sacrifice?

Would it be a greater sacrifice compared to one who who does so with no hope of resurrection?

I believe the Christian position is that Jesus BELIEVED and trusted that his Father would not abandon him in the Grave. I.e. there was THAT chance of being abandoned, since God disliked sin so much, so if Jesus embodied sin at that time, the Father could have left him there. This way I think it was a genuine concern, and as much as Jesus said he'd rise on the third day, he was also speaking by faith. And that's why the night before, he had a panic attack and suffered hematidrosis (sweating blood). He was under that much pressure, and was just as afraid as any man - of death. Guy was actually begging God to reconsider the plan.

Being as much God as the Father was, Jesus had legitimate concerns cos he knew just how much God detested anything that had to do with sin. These concerns make Jesus sacrifice as legitimate as any other.

What he had was a promise, just like that of a boy whose father says, "jump from the ship into the boat, I'll catch you". The son trusts the father but he knows the father dislikes water and so the father does not swim. Thus if he should miss, he's done for. That's as legitimate a concern as any other.