usermane:


I don't have the Hadith at my disposal at the moment. But do you disagree that a woman can be Imam for men in salat?

what I understand is with her fellow women. Even if a young boy is present and he knows how to lead salat he should instead of woman.



.

That's not the point. The point is every Muslim's belief or interpretation should be respected. Don't force your own interpretation on others.

nonesense.

Have you ever worked as security agent or a carrier where your boss gives you SEALED envelop to deliver to another company?. You have absolutely no right to open the envelope. If you do, you are going to jail.

So patterns of praying salat and number of salat is completed and SEALED. To do contrary to that is tantamount to heretic and should be excommunicated

Empiree:
what I understand is with her fellow women. Even if a young boy is present and he knows how to lead salat he should instead of woman.

OK. I get you.

. nonesense.

Have you ever worked as security agent or a carrier where your boss gives you SEALED envelop to deliver to another company?. You have absolutely no right to open the envelope. If you do, you are going to jail.

So patterns of praying salat and number of salat is completed and SEALED. To do contrary to that is tantamount to heretic and should be excommunicated

OK. I won't dispute you. But do you think most traditionalists will agree with you on that?

usermane:


OK. I get you.



OK. I won't dispute you. But do you think most traditionalists will agree with you on that?

yes, because there is no difference of opinion. The way we pray was legislated

Empiree:
yes, because there is no difference of opinion. The way we pray was legislated

Not that. I mean do you think most Muslims agree on forcing one interpretation on those that hold alternate interpretation?

usermane:


Not that. I mean do you think most Muslims agree on forcing one interpretation on those that hold alternate interpretation?

well, I don't know what's your definition of forcing in this context. There is nothing to force on anyone because muslim generally pray the same way except you. We can't tell if someone believes differently unless and until he leads salat in non-traditional way as legislated. Or he preaches "3 daily salat" according to his understanding. Then muslims are obligated to take his microphone off or shut the mic and put a duck tape on his lips and. FORCE him to take elementary studies of Islam all over again

Empiree:
well, I don't know what's your definition of forcing in this context. There is nothing to force on anyone because muslim generally pray the same way except you. We can't tell if someone believes differently unless and until he leads salat in non-traditional way as legislated. Or he preaches "3 daily salat" according to his understanding. Then muslims are obligated to take his microphone off or shut the mic and put a duck tape on his lips and. FORCE him to take elementary studies of Islam all over again

You still don't understand. Let's put it with the Saudi example. Do you think most Muslims agree with Mutawwa forcing people out for salat?

usermane:


You still don't understand. Let's put it with the Saudi example. Do you think most Muslims agree with Mutawwa forcing people out for salat?

okay, this one I have told you it is their country and this is heartland of Islam. Therefore, when it is time for salat, from what I heard, all or most stores are closed for the moment. Therefore, if it is law of the land to enforce this law, so be it.

However, no one can tell if someone prays or not on average day. So I wont support beating up people on the streets by asking them "have you prayed?". But in time of salat and every shop is closed and you keep yours open or don't go to pray, they have the right to challenge you.

So your question about forcing people is not narrow one. I don't know how Mutawwa thing works until I personally witness it myself.

Empiree:
okay, this one I have told you it is their country and this is heartland of Islam. Therefore, when it is time for salat, from what I heard, all or most stores are closed for the moment. Therefore, if it is law of the land to enforce this law, so be it.

However, no one can tell if someone prays or not on average day. So I wont support beating up people on the streets by asking them "have you prayed?". But in time of salat and every shop is closed and you keep yours open or don't go to pray, they have the right to challenge you.

This is your position of the state policy, my question is do you think other Muslims share this position? How many percent do you think will agree that such a policy is justice?

usermane:


This is your position of the state policy, my question is do you think other Muslims share this position? How many percent do you think will agree that such a policy is justice?

what muslims think is irrelevant. This is Saudi Arabia. If their law says "in the time of salat when adhan is called, all shops must close and everyone goes to pray, or whoever is unable for medical reason prays in his shop etc. If you have no valid reason to join the prayer and you continue conducting your business, Mutawwa must challenge you"

Then, this is the law of the land and it is none of anyone's business. But for you to ask for opinion of muslims is rather irrelevant bcus in this day and age there are many who just wanna combine all their salat at night. So it won't be surprised to disagree with my opinion. This is God's religion not the people.

Empiree:
what muslims think is irrelevant. This is Saudi Arabia. If their law says "in the time of salat when adhan is called, all shops must close and everyone goes to pray, or whoever is unable for medical reason prays in his shop etc. If you have no valid reason to join the prayer and you continue conducting your business, Mutawwa must challenge you"

Then, this is the law of the land and it is none of anyone's business. But for you to ask for opinion of muslims is rather irrelevant bcus in this day and age there are many who just wanna combine all their salat at night. So it won't be surprised to disagree with my opinion. This is God's religion not the people.

It is people's business. It's like saying that it is no one's business if a western country's rulers decide to ban mosques or ban Muslim immigrants or force everyone not to work on Sundays.

That said, there are plenty of Muslims who oppose Saudi and Iran's policy of enforcing Islam. For you to say their opinions is irrelevant is highly bias.

usermane:


It is people's business. It's like saying that it is no one's business if a western country's rulers decide to ban mosques or ban Muslim immigrants or force everyone not to work on Sundays.

That said, there are plenty of Muslims who oppose Saudi and Iran's policy of enforcing Islam. For you to say their opinions is irrelevant is highly bias.

You are on a mission. For this, I won't take you serious. The comparison you made was not even logical.

You are just trying hard to take Islam away from people. But guess what?. It won't work. Many westerners are coming to Islam. They are gonna be disappointed if they see you speak like this. It is shameful of you.

Empiree:
You are on a mission. For this, I won't take you serious. The comparison you made was not even logical.

You have no proof as usual. If Wahhabist and Khomeinists can enforce policies as they see fit to protect their ideology, Christians, secularists and democrats should be able to enforce policies as they see fit to preserve their ideology. "It is their land."

"Do onto others what as you want to be done to you". Learn humility and respect.

You are just trying hard to take Islam away from people. But guess what?. It won't work. Many westerners are coming to Islam. They are gonna be disappointed if they see you speak like this. It is shameful of you.

It is a pathetic that you fear your religion will easily be wiped out if people are allowed to go on with their affairs during salat time. It is proof of the weakness of your beliefs. You lack faith in the stability of your own religion that you don't even believe everything it states Denying the death penalty for apostasy, stoning of adulterers and slavery that are well documented in your books.

Many of those western converts and Muslims born in Islam in the Muslim world and the west utterly reject the enforcement of Islam as seen in Muslim countries. They'll be disappointed in Muslims like you who is an Islamist, who can't deal with pluralism.

Lastly, you are on a mission with the Muslim Brotherhood. That's why you throw in unconfirmed & misleading news and propagandas, falsely slandering an ex President, a dead man, a Muslim. You share the same heinous beliefs with the likes of ISIS and Boko Haram, only that you object to their bomblasts and killings.

So long, Empiree.

usermane:


You have no proof as usual. If Wahhabist and Khomeinists can enforce policies to protect their ideology, secularists and democrats should be able to enforce policies to preserve their ideology.

"Do onto others what as you want to be done to you". Learn humility and respect.

bro, this is not about ideology. This is about obligatory practices in Islam enforced on MUSLIMS by Creator Himself. So I'm not gonna get into wahabbi/Khomeini stuff.

It is a pathetic that you fear your religion will easily be wiped out if people are allowed to go on with their affairs during salat time. It is proof of the weakness of your beliefs.

You still don't get it. Both countries foundations are built on pillars of religion. They have the right to enforce what is obligatory therein. And you know what. it is too late for this trash you just said. A guy said the same thing in 2006 that Islam would be gone in 10yrs. Ten years has passed and Islam is still here. What's wrong with you man?.

Many of those western converts and Muslims born in Islam will utterly reject the enforcement of Islam as seen in Muslim countries. They'll be disappointed in Muslims like you who is an Islamist, who can't deal with pluralism.

shaking my head. Any non muslims living in those mentioned countries are not bound by the law in question. I simply said when it is time for salat, shops should be closed and everyone heads for salat. If muwwata is tasked to deal with violators I:e those who continue trades those times, muwwata has the right to challenge them. So by default, most muslims would head for salat at that moment without being forced. It is common sense man. But you are portraying something different because you made it clear before that whoever doesn't want to pray doesn't have to. This is very silly statement if indeed your are a believer..

Imam Suraj wahaj is a New York City imam from Brooklyn. Go and listen to his lecture where he said he prefers his children to work as cleaners on the streets of New York and be practicing muslims and make Janna than to be CEO making big money but looses Islam. These are words coming out of muslim convert in the West.

Another one is a imam in the same Brooklyn. He enforced sharia on his students. He said if you want to be my student and you violate the rules, he will punish you according to sharia. So one day, a guy came to him that he committed fornication, the imam lashed the guy 80 Stokes.

In his terms and conditions he said, to be his student is to abide by his rules. If you violate and he wants to deliver hudud and you rebel against him, there is no force and you just simply have to leave. But if you agree to be his students be ready.

So stop your nonsense. Your attitude give rooms for trash. This reminds me of tarawee in NYC masjid in 2015. A white Muslim woman raised her voice in the mosque because she wanted to compete with men. This happened when imam asked us to straighten lines and women should go to women section which is upstairs and downstairs. They are only allowed stand directly behind men if there are not too many men. But this particular night many men were present and masjid almost full.

These women were directly behind men that night but when imam noticed that more men were coming, he summoned ladies to go upstairs because they still had space. But this white woman started screaming that Prophet didn't do that. He didn't say this and that. And she started acting like boss. Is this God's way usermane for people to be yelling in the midist of salat?. She was doing this just because of feminism blood in your system.

Then american man stood up and said, "this is why I love African muslims brothers. They won't take this nonsense from women. You are preaching nonsense usermane bcus this is 21century?.

You honestly need to make tawbah for some of your utterances. Also go and watch Joshua Evans. This is another white muslim convert who said at the time of Charlie Hebdo that Muslims have the right to be upset and take to the street. He was crying literally at the podium for his love of the prophet (saw). But you are here talking trash. You think just because they are Westerners they agree with this idea of freedom and other madness all the times?. Bro, you need to cool off. There are lots of American white and black converts living permanently in Saudi and Iran. Get over this sh!t man.

And I don't know why you have to force me on those two groups. This shows you are upset. And I have told you before those are agents of the free world that you think are Angels. I showed you John McCain posed with them in 2014

Healthy Foods

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If you resort to adhomein whenever a disagreement arises, then don't cry foul when I resort to adhomein as well. You're very good in diverting the subject when conered. And accusing me fighting against your religion. The same tactics employed by the Muslims who killed Farag Foda, Salman Taseer, Muhammad Taha, Rashad Khalifa and many other peacemakers among Muslims.

And then you brag about your converts, as if converts are indication your religion is the truth. The very converts whom originally you demonize as "filthy kuffars" before their conversion. The converts, many of whom do not know the ugly face of your religion as I do.

Empiree: And I don't know why you have to force me on those two groups. This shows you are upset. And I have told you before those are agents of the free world that you think are Angels. I showed you John McCain posed with them in 2014

You do understand that Israel created Hamas right? The so called defenders of Palestinians. Covert western agents do pull strings here and there to support terrorists groups, of course.

But who lead Muslims from all over the world to the terrorist camps? Why did over 6 thousand British Muslim men and women go upon ISIS? Was there a secret westerner enticing them?

I don't take half-truth. With or without McCain, terrorist groups would exist in Muslim world, even if to a lesser extent. Muslim terrorism have existed since the 7th century, either as fanatic Muslims killing Muslims or killing non-Muslims.

That said, I stand by everything I've said in my earlier post. You believe in forcing your interpretation of Islam on others. You do not respect individual liberty, civil or human rights. This is not too different from ISIS combatants.

usermane:
If you resort to adhomein whenever a disagreement arises, then don't cry foul when I resort to adhomein as well. You're very good in diverting the subject when conered. And accusing me fighting against your religion. The same tactics employed by the Muslims who killed Farag Foda, Salman Taseer, Muhammad Taha, Rashad Khalifa and many other peacemakers among Muslims.

And then you brag about your converts, as if converts are indication your religion is the truth. The very converts whom originally you demonize as "filthy kuffars" before their conversion. The converts, many of whom do not know the ugly face of your religion as I do.

why are you wailing now?. "Your religion" "your religion" "your religion": Your position speaks volume. This will not get us anywhere. I have no idea about all those people you mentioned. All i advised you was:



** stop telling muslims not to pray at appointed times without valid reason(s) established in figh.

** stop telling muslims that there are other forms (patterns) of salat contrary to the one legislated for over 1400 years.

** stop telling muslims that it is 3 daily prayers instead of 5.



These are innovations. ^^^


Islam teaches us to train our children to offer salat at age of 7 and to hold them accountable at age of 10. But you have views that is 100% contrary to establishment. Therefore, keep your fake "manhaj" to yourself. If Saudi and Iran chose to enforce Muwatta (whatever it is), is only about muslims not about people of other faiths.


Everything else you said is bluster

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrAcT44cxfw&t=3336s

Someone Is Not Happy That White People Are Coming To Islam

Empiree:
** stop telling muslims not to pray at appointed times without valid reason(s) established in figh.

I never said Muslims shouldn't pray at the appointed time. I said no one should force Muslims to pray.

** stop telling muslims that there are other forms (patterns) of salat contrary to the one legislated for over 1400 years.

In our talk here so far, in this thread, I never said this.

** stop telling muslims that it is 3 daily prayers instead of 5.

I never said this in our discussion in the last 2 or 3 days. Are you deliberately derailing the topic? I said if a Muslim conclude salat is thrice daily, his conclusion should be respected. 5 salat should not be enforced on him.

These are innovations. Islam teaches us to train our children to offer salat at age of 7 and to hold them accountable at age of 10. But you have views that is 100% contrary to establishment. Therefore, keep your fake "manhaj" to yourself. If Saudi and Iran chose to enforce Muwatta (whatever it is), is only about muslims nor about people of other faiths.

All irrelevant. Evident of your poor knowledge on forced Islam in those countries, closure of business in time of salat and enforced hair covering applies to non-Muslims.

Respect people's preference and choices, don't bully everyone into compliance with your own preference and choices. Be Humble.

Empiree:
Someone Is Not Happy That White People Are Coming To Islam

Gloating. Thank God for exposing yourself.

usermane:


I never said Muslims shouldn't pray at the appointed time. I said no one should force Muslims to pray.




In our talk here so far, in this thread, I never said this.



I never said this in our discussion in the last 2 or 3 days. Are you deliberately derailing the topic? I said if a Muslim conclude salat is thrice daily, his conclusion should be respected. 5 salat should not be enforced on him.

Stop playing with my intelligence. Everything i mentioned is what you meant. It is even shameful that you repeated it. This should never come out of a faithful person. We all know your creed. You have argued this in the past and recently in other thread. You posted exactly what's on your mind. We all know that you have problems with major tenets of islam. Stick to criticisms of some hadith. Don't tamper with obligatory practices. I have zero tolerance for this.

There is no way you can refute 1400 years of these practices as passed down to us. And there is no room for other opinion(s) when it comes to obligatory practices like shahada, salat, zakat, haj. You have openly expressed your opposite views. You have argued that our shahada is wrong. Our salat is wrong(that's why you dont pray with fellow muslims). You have argued zakar 4 yrs ago. You have condemned sunnah practices of hajj. Therefore, kindly keep your fake manhaj with you

All irrelevant. Evident of your poor knowledge on forced Islam in those countries, closure of business in time of salat and enforced hair covering applies to non-Muslims.

You have made wrong allegation against me. Kindly quote me where i said @highlited please?.



Far as i know, this is what i said

Empiree:
Any non muslims living in those mentioned countries are not bound by the law in question.

Someone Is Not Happy Right Now