huxley:

I know you are a good student of atheism, correct. Can you tell exveryone what the core atheistic tenets are, besides the various definitional differences amonsgt those who self-declare as atheists?

huxley:

All religious movements have a set of core tenets/doctrines/beliefs/precepts. What are the core atheist tenets/doctrines/beliefs/precepts? Having read some atheist philosophers as Nagel et al, can you show us how these philosophers defend these tenets and how these are instrumental in governing their lives?

huxley:

Did you really mean abiogenesis? I think you made a typo there. KAG referred to baryogenesis not abiogenesis. Anyway, back to my point.

huxley:

First, I do not generally assume others are ignorant of points. However, I take a strong stance against willful ignorance, described as the deliberate and willful avoidance of the opportunity to learn of be informed.

huxley:

This is usually accompanied by dishonestly misrepresenting the opinion of well-accepted experts in the field. This is not to say that conterveiling opinions are not welcome. Such counterveiling evidence must be backed by well-attested support to be taken seriously.

huxley:

Let me give you the gist of the scientific position on the Big Bang. Now, is there evidence that the cosmos is expanding? Absolutely. It has been measured. In fact, the rate of expansion is know.

Are there other internal evidence with the space of the universe of a rapid expansion? Absolutely. The Cosmic Microwave Background (CMB).

Before I proceed, how do you account for these measure facts?

Given that the cosmos is expanding, it follows that at some point in the distant past it must have been much smaller than it is today. In fact, so small that it is theorised, it was smaller that this period . . This has been calculated to be about 14 billion years ago.

Now, when the universe was just as small as a period, you can raise ALL sorts of questions, many of which are not yet resolvable. Question like;

1) Was there time before the period started to expand?
2) Was the period part of some complex multiverse?
etc, etc.

And for our purpose in this discussion,

10) Can we consider the little period as the universe, or is the universe the 3+n dimensional space created post-expansion?

huxley:

Most cosmologists consider the universe to be the 3+n dimensional space around us. To this end, it is right to describe the Big Bang as the origin of the universe as this fits squarely with our current body of knowledge.

huxley:

If it turns out that there are in fact multiverse, with ours just one of millions, or that our universe is an oscillatory universe of expansion and contraction, then that definition will have to be revise.

huxley:

The mistake you are making is that you are treating science as dogma. This is not surprising, given you belong to the dogmatic fraternity.

huxley:

Science and scientist see no problem in revising their theories in the light of new supporting data.

huxley:


I did ask you many times to explain CMB and the measure expansion rate of the universe, but you have proferred no response.

huxley:

Can you show any well-attested study that show that crop-circles are not hoaxes? I can show you many studies that have concluded that they are indeed hoaxes;

1) Two of the leading makers (Doug Bower, Dave Chorley) of crop-circles in England have publicly confessed in 1991 to having been making these circles for about 10 years.
2) Schnabel, J 1993. Round in Circles. London Hamish Hamiltion.
3) Nickell, J 1995, Crop Circle Mania wanes: An investigation Update, Skeptical Enquirer 19(3) 41-43.
4) Nickell, J 1996. Crop Circles. In the Encycleopedia of the Paranormal.

Just out of interest, what is the frequency of crop circles today and are there equally represent in all parts of the world?

Chrisbenogor:

I think this should be settled once and for all.
We should stop dodging issues using the hypocrisy wild card. It derails issues, if the thread is about how atheism affects nigeria then fine but it is not. Religious irrationalism is what is being discussed here, and we need to address the issue at hand regardless of whether atheism is irrational too. That simple.

Chrisbenogor:

Dear pilgrim,
Hypocrisy is not the point of this thread, it does not make the issues go away. Discussing atheists that have been irrational does not change the fact that the poster is asking how religious irrationalism has derailed this country or the world at large.
But when if the post is about comparing both of them then we can go ahead.
Where were we when it all started, I was sleeping then had to see me dentist:-) but we are here now and lets stop deflecting questions with the hypocrisy wild card it is putting a lid on us intellectually.
Cheers.

gamechange (m)
USA
Posts: 46


Is Religion Or Practising 2 (main) Religions A Curse Or A Blessing For Nigeria?
« on: October 16, 2008, 06:40 PM »
Nigeria is deeply divided when it comes to religion, both main religions preach peace and love, yet we are a nation where every religion wants to outdo or outsmart the other. We keep killing each other (religios riots). We have Imams and Pastors living off the largesse of their congregants (no beef, congregants are not complaining), while some members live in absolute penury. Homes and families are destroyed as a result of supposed revelations in houses of worship. We dislike and generalize based on someones religion. When politicians and other stewards are caught red handed, they quickly take solace in their religion/ God. You hear comments like "God will vindicate me"

What is it with religion or 2 religions, is it a blessing or a curse for Nigeria? Would like your thoughts.

Chrisbenogor:

Where were we when it all started, I was sleeping then had to see me dentist:-)

Chrisbenogor:

But to follow the poster's line of thought religion may have caused chaos in many parts of the world but I think it would be stretching the truth to add Nigeria, its not the cause per say but it does hinder the solutions.

pilgrim.1:

@huxley,

I'm sorry again, but please don't even try to wave this simplistic idea promoted by people like Michael Martin in our face. Buddhism is NOT atheism by any stretch; and if you want to take me up on that, I shall be too glad to help throw Martin's miscalculations about this to the bin once and for all. I'm not being crude, huxley. . . but I'm weary already of celebrated writers misleading the public - which was what Martin did; and yet I have looked in vain to see how many atheists have tried to correct Martin.

pilgrim.1:

An atheist lives his life on the foundation of one thing: the denial of the existence of God and the supernatural. What this means to them is what has led to the various schools of thought within atheism. That is why people like Nagel, G. Smith, Michael Martin, and a whole lot of others have been seeking to educate their community about atheism - and that is why you will not find just one type of atheism, but many shades and coteries within that worldview.

pilgrim.1:

No, I did not make a typo - I was wrong. You're correct, KAG was about baryogenesis rather than abiogenesis - my mistake.

pilgrim.1:

To be honest with you, it could not be your fault to use those choice of words - because we know that so many other "scientific" sources are making that same mistake. To seek a balance was why I had to post sources that were unbiased by the cosmetics and show that what you should (or might) have been looking at was the "evolution of the universe", and not its origin. Issues like that is what I understand as the reason why many people simply just don't want to be occupied in a shouting match - and for the same reason I have often said that we should not make ourselves the victims of needless arguments.

pilgrim.1:

Good - and that was the reason I offered that opinion of "well-accepted experts in the field" without recourse to the dishonest misrepresentations of those using the Big Bang theory as a front for the "origin of the universe".

pilgrim.1:

Dude huxley, you amaze me. . on the one hand, you hold the idea that you don't usually hold others as ignorant - but what are you doing here? You just seem to imagine that I had no clue whatsoever about the CMD before you starting trying to use that as a battering ram in arguments? Lol, dear huxley, even when you migrate from the BB theory to CMD, do you now see what I had been trying to point out all along? The questions arising from these theoretical postulations do not yet account for the origin of the universe. If they did, what was the need of seeking answers to issues dating before that time-measure? This is what fascinates me - that we all assume we have the answers already, and yet we're asking questions that go back beyond the point where we started!

May I say this, huxley: we're all students of these theories, and not one of us can use these findings to bandy the other. Do these theories negate the reality of our spiritual experiences? No - honest people engaged in science will tell you plainly that they do not. The problem for many people is to use these issues to scream a "no-God" atheistic agenda, whereas atheism is not science. On the whole, our assumptions on both sides rest on interpretations of our world; and it would be unhealthy to use these matters to posit that theists are backward thinkers in the corridors of science.

huxley:

Who is the god(s) venerated by the Buddhists (at least, the traditional form)? Can you show me any reputed philosophers (or philosophies) of religions that classify buddhism as theistic?

Pastor AIO:

I reckon to look at religion as the source of nigeria's problems is too superficial. The problem is a corruption that is intrinsic and endemic and will manifest regardless of religion, ideology, creed, doctrine, . . . whatever. Religious indoctrination is powerless to stop it. In fact religion and anything else it comes into contact with will just be transformed into a tool for it to continue it's activities.

I believe the problem is much deeper and it precedes the introduction of christianity into africa by the white man. We need to discuss why there is no architecture of note in Africa when there is architecture in every continent (apart from australia). Apart from Lalibela in Ethiopia where buildings were carved out of mountain there are no structures of note that our ancestors built. Why did we export so much of our labour, talent, and brains out of africa to a foreign land? Why is there a notable self loathing to be found in most african peoples? We need to start discussing and researching these issues.

stillwater:

Africa is very diverse. Maybe if we had a history where a guy comes up conquering every tinny winny tribe, creating a united front/ empire, we would have something memorable to show for it.