Ichiato:

Please answer yourself. What role was Mary so highly favored to play. Or without the conception of baby Jesus would you be talking of salvation?

she was favored! it was not of her doing, God favored her. andshe was from David's lineage , so God was fulfilling his words and at the same time favoring Mary. that's all. it could have been anyone else. she was just lock that the grace of the lord was on her.
let me even ask you... do you know what grace means?

OLAADEGBU:


Even though Jesus did what Mary said but this was not after He had somewhat rebuked her by saying that His mission was not to do temporary ephemeral things but to save His people from their sins. Apart from this place, Mary is never shown in Scripture to demand or request anything from Jesus again.

In addition to your point, Mary was not interceding. She was letting the wedding event planners in on the miraculous power of God resident in Jesus. Nothing in that passage proves that if the people themselves had gone to Jesus, he would have turned them down.

An intercessor is one who pleads on your behalf. Making mary an intercessor is belittling the efficacy of the blood of Jesus; blood that spoke,speaks and will continue speaking into eternity.

An0nimus:
"My church is bigger than yours" is practically the way some of us are addressing this issue.

You see comments like "how can your church formed 20 years ago dare the church that has been in existence over 2000 years"

Its funny really.

One thing I know is the Lord knows those who are His and I dare say they are not peculiar to any particular church or denomination. Instead of vain arguments and babblings let us instead seek to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Plus seek a personal relationship with our maker not one dictated by any cleric, pastor or priest.

Samplegirl I'm enjoying your discourse

Thank you. I appreciate.

SalC:
You quote me to address an issue I didn't raise lol,

I can see you cleverly dodged by last question but let me rephrase

How did you know the bible is the word that has to be adhered to?

becos it contains d teachings of our lord jesus christ.and it is a guide for us to walk on he right path till we get to an enternal life

IyfeNamikaze:


No one is slandering Mary here, why should we? we are just trying to set things straight. it's human nature to overdo things. and as it stand, you people are rubbing Mary shoulder to shoulder with Christ. To even say she played a role in our salvation is so pitiful.

What u r doing is even worse than slander. First you miscontrue the honour catholics give to Mary as worship den wen u r being corrected you remain recalcitrant to accept that we only honour citing issues like bowing to her image as tantamount to worship. You are also lying against ur brethren. And as a bible studying xtian I pity the fact that you don't see it in the scriptures how Mary was a part of God's redemptive plan for fallen mankind. God does not make mistakes neither does he do things as random. Before we were even born he knows us (yes each and every one of the over 10billions) of us he ever created by name and he was the one that knitted us in our mother's womb. He chose her from time immemorial for the purpose of being the vessel to carry GOD(the new ark of the convenant). How do u think such a vessel can be smeared with sin. Study ur scriptures and see these things for urself. Who is that woman mentioned in Genesis that will crush the head of the serpent?

If Mary was so sinless and worthy of this honour, why did God not use her to save humanity?
Why use Jesus,when He already has spotless,sinless Mary on earth?

Ichiato:

So bowing down to your father who is alive on earth is not the same worshiping him but doing the same things to the most blessed woman is worshiping her. Clap for your logic

since you have chosen to turn a blind eye to the points I made, I will take the pain to rephrase them in a more simpler way.

bowing down to my father is a sign of honor, and bowing down to Mary is also a sign of honor. but here is where it all gets sketchy... I bow down before my father who is actually in my presence and I know what he looks like, and the sound of his voice... but you bow down to an image supposed to be Mary.. note: you are not sure that that is even what she looked like. none of us have seen her before. some say she is dark skinned, others say she is fair. but whatever, you jst bow down to what you don't know. is that not idolatry? what is the difference between you and a pegan?

Obinoscopy:
If she isn't then I wonder who is?

datz wie u ppl get it wrong.......Mary was nevr a saint!

IyfeNamikaze:


she was favored! it was not of her doing, God favored her. andshe was from David's lineage , so God was fulfilling his words and at the same time favoring Mary. that's all. it could have been anyone else. she was just lock that the grace of the lord was on her.
let me even ask you... do you know what grace means?

Are you implying that Mary didn't have free will to have rejected the will of God and accepting to bear the messiah?

Nobody is saying that. From your point of view, there are times jesus won't answer your prayer unless your pastor prays on your behalf. Is that why you ask your pastor to pray for you. We catholics pray to God through Jesus and then asks the blessed mother to also pray for us. So stop acting like we don't pray to God through Jesus at all. If what happened in canaan was anything to go by, it showed the power of mary's intercesion. Jesus was reluctant- his time had not come, yet a single request by the blessed mother changed all that. If you like don't honour her. But me and my family will continue to honour her and ask for her intercession. You guys are always talking about what's in the bible and what's not not knowing that the catholic church carries along with it the traditions of early xtians some of which are not written down. Without the catholic church, there would be no bible or christianity. Ave Maria!

IyfeNamikaze:


so you are trying to say that there are times when Christ will refuse to hear your prayers unless Mary intercedes on your behalf?

Do you really understand Christ's role in our lives?
Do you know that he elected to come and die for humanity to be saved because of the Love he has for us, and you are here making it sound as if HE is difficult to approach... thereby asking Mary to go pray on your behalf. Smh

was there ever a place in the Bible where Christ rejected an audience with any one?

Olaskybab:

datz wie u ppl get it wrong.......Mary was nevr a saint!

Ok, what's your definition of a saint and mention a few.

U people should leave our dear mother alone na

IyfeNamikaze:


she was favored! it was not of her doing, God favored her. andshe was from David's lineage , so God was fulfilling his words and at the same time favoring Mary. that's all. it could have been anyone else. she was just lock that the grace of the lord was on her.
let me even ask you... do you know what grace means?

Yes she was favored and its of Gods doing but the fact that of all women God found her to be favorable in his eyes commands respects. You say it as if God did mini mini mani mo with regards the one who is conceive his only son. Please it was not stated anywhere that nor do you have any sound prove that mary was of David's lineage rather it was stated in Mathew that Joseph was the descendant of David.

mbulela:
If Mary was so sinless and worthy of this honour, why did God not use her to save humanity?
Why use Jesus,when He already has spotless,sinless Mary on earth?

Lemme play along with your own skewed logic......why did God even need to send Jesus to save mankind...he shud have just said some magic words and whooosh mankind is saved.

freeradical:
What u r doing is even worse than slander. First you miscontrue the honour catholics give to Mary as worship den wen u r being corrected you remain recalcitrant to accept that we only honour citing issues like bowing to her image as tantamount to worship. You are also lying against ur brethren. And as a bible studying xtian I pity the fact that you don't see it in the scriptures how Mary was a part of God's redemptive plan for fallen mankind. God does not make mistakes neither does he do things as random. Before we were even born he knows us (yes each and every one of the over 10billions) of us he ever created by name and he was the one that knitted us in our mother's womb. He chose her from time immemorial for the purpose of being the vessel to carry GOD(the new ark of the convenant). How do u think such a vessel can be smeared with sin. Study ur scriptures and see these things for urself. Who is that woman mentioned in Genesis that will crush the head of the serpent?

now listen, bowing to her image is not only tantamount to worship but also idolatry. so yo see you guys are practically committing two sins at the same time. Mary has nothing to do with my salvation, she was favored an the grace was with her. she was sinner, she wasn't conceived of the holy spirit like Christ was. she is a sinner and pray often for forgiveness just like you and I. or are you going to tell me that she has never done such? by the way, all these were possible because Joseph is from David's lineage.

freeradical:
Are you implying that Mary didn't have free will to have rejected the will of God and accepting to bear the messiah?

are you saying that Mary now has the power to stop God's plan? as in.... is that what you are trying to say?

I do not know why many people expecially non catholics bother too much about Mary. Why is it that some people are embittered even to hear her name? Can any one quote the scripture to show me where Mary offended them? Why the fuss then? If you think you do not have any business with her why not move on with your life. Just think of the way you will feel hurt when someone dishonours your mother, that is still how you are hurting Jesus dishonouring his mother. Read Rev 12 a woman God himself adorned with the sun, moon and stars then who are you to despise her. Also read luke 1:41-45 they scripture says that Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit at the sight of Mary and she made those uterances. Biko if any one does not want to recognize her role in our salvation its upto the person. It is only a weak and lapsed catholic who is not acquaited with the bible that will even try to reason with you. Do yourself good and go to pegans and even nations that have not recieved good news and evangelize instead of brooding here. As for me Mary is my mother, queen, my friend, my love, my advocate and many more. Jesus is my Lord, savoiur, redeemer, king and many more. As long as you do not want to par with the truth even as you think you are wise continue to plunge deeper into utter ignorance.




Any one trying to quote me for dialogue or arguement, your name is sorry because i would not give a danm. Take it or leave it.

Ichiato:

So mentioning someone more than 20times qualifies as worship? My friend better behave yourself. But which service do you hear Catholics mentioning mary more than 20 times? I can tell you that if we mention mary 20times then we must have mentioned christ a hundred times in that service.

guy,I don't argue wit ppl lyk u wu don't say d fact............though,I've sed it earlier dat I'm not against ur doctrine nd as a mata of fact,I attended ur service smtyms ago.
U ppl call her name so many tyms durin service nd besides,y did u ppl make her statue?

IyfeNamikaze:

what church do you think Christ was talking about? for your information, it was never the Catholic church neither was it Pentecostal church. but the true believers (congregation of the followers of Christ )
Peter never prayed with rosary and he never asked for Mary to intercede on his behalf. Peter really never bowed down to any image of Christ or Mary or anything. he didn't burn incense. so Peter clearly knows nothing about the Catholic, Pentecostal doctrines we have today. he is. called the 1st Pope, but was never addressed as such throughout his lifetime. infact there was nothing as Pope until 1300 or so.

Pope is a title given to the "leader of the catholic church". The same post Peter held. U have to broaden your mind my friend. I can tell you the Bible does not use the word pastor anywhere in the new testament YET u call your Rabi pastor. i can say the Bible does not tell us to call you founder "Daddy" or "General Oversea" etc. The Bible uses the word Deacon which is used in the catholic church today.


Dear friend even the Bible approves burning incense. There MIGHT have been no need for Peter to pray through Mary after all they were all alive together. Besides if he did there is nothing wrong with it. After all even you tell your pastor to pray for you.


All these things u say Peter did not do where u around with him to confirm? Stop assuming. The Bible may not have said much about Peter's life after all the Bible is not an biography of Saint Peter

Ichiato:

You talk of manufacturing doctrines like you manufacturer doctrines from tin air. No you can't just manufacture doctrines from tin air, as a matter of fact, you can't manufacture anything from tin air (except you're magician LOL). All catholic doctrines have bases from which they were manufactured and many of which are still in the bible. Why Catholics pray to mary and saints? I believe Werehkpe has given bible passages to explain earlier. The reason why I take such stance that everything does not have to be in the bible is the way many non-Catholics demand specific instances in the bible to support our arguments as if without that then we are wrong. Catholic doctrines can also be based on traditions which is spoken words and actions from generation to generation.

Thank you @Ichiato for your attempt to my question. But one thing I know is that if I am preparing for exams I have to read through the textbooks which covers the course of study. Having done that I don't think the examiner will expect me to cover what the syllabus did not stipulate.

The Bible is Christians' textbook for our course of study and I strongly believe that anything not writen in the Bible is insignificant to us. The book of 2 Timothy 3:16 say;ALL SCRIPTURE IS GIVEN BY INSIPIRATION OF GOD, AND IS PROFITABLE FOR DOCTRINE, FOR REPROOF, FOR CORRECTION, FOR INSTRUCTION OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Having known this I don't think it is in the power of a mortal man to add to what GOD himself insipired as I believe HE did not leave anything necessary behind.

Please I am resting my case here as I don't want to continue further with this.

May God bless us all and be merciful to us for our OVER-KNOWLEDGE and our IGNORANCE.


SHALOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IyfeNamikaze:


since you have chosen to turn a blind eye to the points I made, I will take the pain to rephrase them in a more simpler way.

bowing down to my father is a sign of honor, and bowing down to Mary is also a sign of honor. but here is where it all gets sketchy... I bow down before my father who is actually in my presence and I know what he looks like, and the sound of his voice... but you bow down to an image supposed to be Mary.. note: you are not sure that that is even what she looked like. none of us have seen her before. some say she is dark skinned, others say she is fair. but whatever, you jst bow down to what you don't know. is that not idolatry? what is the difference between you and a pegan?

I don't understand your point here. Is it the fact that mary is not visible to my eyes that qualifies it as idolatry? Or the fact that I stand in front of her statue? If it is the fact that mary is not visible to my eyes then I honestly don't know why you call yourself a Christian cos the same can be said for christ but if its because I stand in front of a statue then I can tell you that the statue is in ni way what am bowing to. The purpose of the statue is to bring the image and person of mary to my mind. I believe mary is in heaven and I bow to her in respect and ask for her intercestion simple.

I honestly don't know why u guys are having dis arguement. Believe what u want 2 believe, at d end of d day(judgement day), u will know whether u were right or wrong. I believe d simple doctrine is 2 do good at all times and avoid every evil. I believe what I believe, I am a catholic and will remain one till I die. Thank You.

IyfeNamikaze:


are you saying that Mary now has the power to stop God's plan? as in.... is that what you are trying to say?

its you that is implying that Mary is just one robot that God made for the purpose of bearing Jesus. because she is a robot to you she doesn't play any part to your salvation. Hence she is even to you less than the likes of Peter, John, Paul and all the prophets.

What I'm saying to the unbiased xtian minds out dia is that God chose Mary for the task from time immemorial. From what we know abt God he gave man free will. All the prophesies in the old testamanet about the virgin birth of the messiah is a testament to the divine plan of God. He formed her like he formed every one of us but made her specially sinless unlike us because she was going to carry God. Yes we xtians agree that Jesus Christ is God (the holy immortal One) so how can a vessel smeared in sin carry him. As catholics we believe that Jesus Christ had a dual nature of God and Man. So evidently when Mary exercising her free will chos to be the handmaid of the Lord she became the Mother of God! The honour catholics render to her also glorifies God because it is the Lord that lifted her from her lowliness for all generations(catholics) to call her blessed. Ave Maria!

freeradical:
;DLemme play along with your own skewed logic......why did God even need to send Jesus to save mankind...he shud have just said some magic words and whooosh mankind is saved.

How does your argument make Mary a saint and an intercessor? Nothing in the biblical account of Mary shoes anything beyond a woman who was favoured and received God's grace.
Also I guess all the other Catholic saints who are often called upon to intercede in prayers are sinless too?
You still have not explained why you need all these intercessors?

freeradical:
its you that is implying that Mary is just one robot that God made for the purpose of bearing Jesus. because she is a robot to you she doesn't play any part to your salvation. Hence she is even to you less than the likes of Peter, John, Paul and all the prophets.

What I'm saying to the unbiased xtian minds out dia is that God chose Mary for the task from time immemorial. From what we know abt God he gave man free will. All the prophesies in the old testamanet about the virgin birth of the messiah is a testament to the divine plan of God. He formed her like he formed every one of us but made her specially sinless unlike us because she was going to carry God. Yes we xtians agree that Jesus Christ is God (the holy immortal One) so how can a vessel smeared in sin carry him. As catholics we believe that Jesus Christ had a dual nature of God and Man. So evidently when Mary exercising her free will chos to be the handmaid of the Lord she became the Mother of God! The honour catholics render to her also glorifies God because it is the Lord that lifted her from her lowliness for all generations(catholics) to call her blessed. Ave Maria!

So when are you going to give Joseph similar honour for not forcing Mary to abort and listening to God's counsel on a pregnancy he had no knowledge of bit had to accept?

Octaves:
Nobody is saying that. From your point of view, there are times jesus won't answer your prayer unless your pastor prays on your behalf. Is that why you ask your pastor to pray for you. We catholics pray to God through Jesus and then asks the blessed mother to also pray for us. So stop acting like we don't pray to God through Jesus at all. If what happened in canaan was anything to go by, it showed the power of mary's intercesion. Jesus was reluctant- his time had not come, yet a single request by the blessed mother changed all that. If you like don't honour her. But me and my family will continue to honour her and ask for her intercession. You guys are always talking about what's in the bible and what's not not knowing that the catholic church carries along with it the traditions of early xtians some of which are not written down. Without the catholic church, there would be no bible or christianity. Ave Maria!

to set the record straight, what happened in cannan was a result of the people fearing to approach Jesus, so they had to ask Mary. there was no saying that Christ would have denied them their request if they had come in person. They just didn't know him Well enough. and whoever that asks Mary to pray for them should be ashamed to call themselves Christians because that person actually doesn't know Christ and has no business associating themselves with Christians.

Christ is open for all to approach at any given time ! he gave his life for us and after that he is still knocking on the door of our hearts, He wants to come into our lives. he is meek and gentle. he ascended to heaven and still sent the holy spirit to us and he also promised to always be with us.
if you actually are a Christian, you would have known better. Oh... I have never asked anyone to pray for me. you can preach to me and close the prayers ( as long as there is room for a general AMEN )

Chibykess:
I honestly don't know why u guys are having dis arguement. Believe what u want 2 believe, at d end of d day(judgement day), u will know whether u were right or wrong. I believe d simple doctrine is 2 do good at all times and avoid every evil. I believe what I believe, I am a catholic and will remain one till I die. Thank You.

Such a closed minded view makes you a poor apologetic of your faith.

IyfeNamikaze:


now listen, bowing to her image is not only tantamount to worship but also idolatry. so yo see you guys are practically committing two sins at the same time. Mary has nothing to do with my salvation, she was favored an the grace was with her. she was sinner, she wasn't conceived of the holy spirit like Christ was. she is a sinner and pray often for forgiveness just like you and I. or are you going to tell me that she has never done such? by the way, all these were possible because she is from David's lineage.

I hope you have never bowed before your Daddy GO ever before. She is not a sinner but the refuge for sinners. You think she was born in david's lineage by chance....think bro there was a divine salvation plan

Ichiato:

Yes she was favored and its of Gods doing but the fact that of all women God found her to be favorable in his eyes commands respects. You say it as if God did mini mini mani mo with regards the one who is conceive his only son. Please it was not stated anywhere that nor do you have any sound prove that mary was of David's lineage rather it was stated in Mathew that Joseph was the descendant of David.

finding favor and grace doesn't mean she played a role in our salvation. nothing you have said actually points to her having a hand in our salvation.

mbulela:


So when are you going to give Joseph similar honour for not forcing Mary to abort and listening to God's counsel on a pregnancy he had no knowledge of bit had to accept?

St. Joseph is also highly honoured by the Church because he is the foster father or Jesus. We acknowledge that he is a saint and he can also intercede for us.

samplegirl:


Thank you @Ichiato for your attempt to my question. But one thing I know is that if I am preparing for exams I have to read through the textbooks which covers the course of study. Having done that I don't think the examiner will expect me to cover what the syllabus did not stipulate.

The Bible is Christians' textbook for our course of study and I strongly believe that anything not writen in the Bible is insignificant to us. The book of 2 Timothy 3:16 say;ALL SCRIPTURE IS GIVEN BY INSIPIRATION OF GOD, AND IS PROFITABLE FOR DOCTRINE, FOR REPROOF, FOR CORRECTION, FOR INSTRUCTION OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Having known this I don't think it is in the power of a mortal man to add to what GOD himself insipired as I believe HE did not leave anything necessary behind.

Please I am resting my case here as I don't want to continue further with this.

May God bless us all and be merciful to us for our OVER-KNOWLEDGE and our IGNORANCE.


SHALOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL I like the bravery with which you use philosophical logical to explain your point? You made some accerttion that the bible is the Christian textbook for our course of study but made no reference to a syllabus which would have been used to truely judge wether or not anything outside the bible is insignificant. Your accerttion again that anything outside the bible is insignificant is wrong. You quoted a bible passage above and I honestly don't know how it disapproves of what I am saying. If you can use the bible to prove that my beliefs of mary is wrong and am trying to use another book to dispute what the bible states then that passage becomes relevant but nowhere in the bible does it say my believes are wrong hence my continuing stance.

Werehkpe:



Pope is a title given to the "leader of the catholic church". The same post Peter held. U have to broaden your mind my friend. I can tell you the Bible does not use the word pastor anywhere in the new testament YET u call your Rabi pastor. i can say the Bible does not tell us to call you founder "Daddy" or "General Oversea" etc. The Bible uses the word Deacon which is used in the catholic church today.


Dear friend even the Bible approves burning incense. There MIGHT have been no need for Peter to pray through Mary after all they were all alive together. Besides if he did there is nothing wrong with it. After all even you tell your pastor to pray for you.


All these things u say Peter did not do where u around with him to confirm? Stop assuming. The Bible may not have said much about Peter's life after all the Bible is not an biography of Saint Peter

I don't tell my pastor to pray for me. he doesn't know what I want and what sins I have committed. he doesn't deserve to know. I pray directly to Christ.

Yes all the times Peter conducted sermons and prayers in the Bible, there was never a mention of him doing those things. so Yes! he never did them.