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The Timing Of End Time Events by Drusilla(f): 1:24am On Jul 30, 2006 |
Order of End Time Events: 70 weeks for the Jews. Daniel 9: 25, 26, 27 This is past Times of the Gentiles. Luke 21:24 This is past The Tribulation. Luke 21:25 This is current The Great Tribulation Luke 21:27 This is Future |
Re: The Timing Of End Time Events by diddy4(m): 2:31am On Jul 30, 2006 |
@drusilla i dont even know what to tell you. i dont even understand any of the things you said above. |
Re: The Timing Of End Time Events by TayoD(m): 3:26am On Jul 30, 2006 |
Drusilla, Can you please back your conclusions with some hard facts. When did each of those events begin and when did each one end, or will end as the case may be? What events mark the beginning of each, and what event will clearly show the end of each? Trying to push your view down our collective throats will not cut it at all. You may even be right, but please let's have some proofs. And by the way, couldn't we have dealt with this on the other similar topics you and Bobbaf have posted? I think this multiplicity of posts will not help us address this issue very well. I personally don't fancy repeating myself which is what this multiplicity will bring about. Some of my responses on the earlier threads do find relevance here, and I don't think I will like to post the same thing here again. If you can, let's try and merge both topics together. Anyway, does any one else agree or is it just me? |
Re: The Timing Of End Time Events by m4malik(m): 6:13am On Jul 30, 2006 |
@TayoD, Obviously we all have our various interpretations of Scripture and I'd like to respect the persuasions of others whatever they choose to believe or be persuaded by. However, I'd agree with you. |
Re: The Timing Of End Time Events by Drusilla(f): 7:33am On Jul 30, 2006 |
TayoD, I'll just start with number 1 and we can go from there: The seventy weeks: 69 weeks: Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 70th week: Dan 9:26 And [size=16pt]after [/size] threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. Notice the bible does not teach that the Messiah was cut off in the 69th week as many Christians are told. The 70th week has to be past because it was [size=16pt]only after [/size] the 69th week that the Messiah cut off. Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. The next verse shows what Jesus did. Confirmed the ccovenant 1. Confirmed the covenant. Cut off in the midst of the week 2. Jesus preached for 3 and half years. Desolation for the Jews 3. Refers to the Jews loss for not accepting their Messiah |
Re: The Timing Of End Time Events by Bobbyaf(m): 5:40pm On Jul 30, 2006 |
@ Drusilla I'll just start with number 1 and we can go from there: I posted a similar response in my secret raprure thread, but I agree with you on this one. |
Re: The Timing Of End Time Events by m4malik(m): 6:00pm On Jul 30, 2006 |
Uh-oh, @Dru, Something's really not quite it in your summations. Drusilla: It didn't say that the 70th week was past before the Messiah was cut off. Drusilla: To interpret this verse as referring to Jesus seems to me to miss the point altogether. You've completely jumped off the previous verse that identifies the one who causes the sacrifice and the oblation to cease - he's "the prince that shall come", and who destroys the city and the sanctuary (v. 26). Is that Jesus as well? |
Re: The Timing Of End Time Events by Bobbyaf(m): 6:51pm On Jul 30, 2006 |
@ Malik To interpret this verse as referring to Jesus seems to me to miss the point altogether. The grammer shows clearly it has to be Jesus the Messiah, lets take another look at the grammer again, 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. 1. There are two uses of the word prince mentioned overall: (a) the Messiah the prince (b) the people of the prince In (a) the Messiah is the subject, and in (b) people is the subject, and not prince. The Messiah the prince in verse 25, and the Messiah in verse 26 are the same person being the main clause of the each sentence. The people of the prince becomes the subject of the sub-ordinate clause being used here to introduce the reality of the AD70 destruction of Jerusalem. The He in verse 27 is a continuation of the main subject, ie the Messiah who was the only person who made the sacrificial system null and void through His death, being the same thing as "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" Also in verse 27 the expression "and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation" is confirmed in Matthew by Jesus' own words when he said: Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand The "he" is Jesus again telling us that he will make jerusalem desolate even until the end, whih is the same thing as saying shall make it desolate, even until the consummation The word end and consummation mean the same thing, and of course the word end would naturally mean the end of this system of things. In other words and in keeping with what was said before, is that after the Jerusalem temple was destroyed in AD70 it would never be restored again. |
Re: The Timing Of End Time Events by m4malik(m): 7:37pm On Jul 30, 2006 |
@Bobbyaf, You guys just need to prayerfully consider the context of Scripture before you pour out anything. Please. If you are asserting that Jesus is the figure in Dan. 9:27, then try again looking hard enough at the context and identifying the traits of the one in that verse: From verse 26 - who is this personality? - he is "the prince that shall come" (clearly in reference to someone else) what does he do? - he "shall destroy the city and the sanctuary" what will mark his era? - (a) "the end thereof shall be with a flood" (b) "unto the end of the war desolations are determined" From verse 27 - what else shall he do? - (a) "he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week" (b) "and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" what characterizes this event? - "the overspreading of abominations" what's his next move? - "he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation" what's the effect of all this? - "that determined shall be poured upon the desolate" Your use of grammar does not correctly identify this character, for you're misconstruing the figures the one for the other by the word "prince". When you made mention of Matt. 24:15, does it not become all the clearer that the character identified there could not be pointing to the Lord Jesus Christ? See again: "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand" Here is a figure - an individual - called simply "the abomination of desolation". This sinister being is abominable in his character, causing desolation in his operations, and seeking to establish his base in the holy place. No one in their right mind would ever think that Jesus is the "abomination of desolation" unless such a person is saying that Jesus is abominable!! Besides, the Lord Jesus was speaking prophetically of events in the endtime (see verse 3). So, He could not have been referring to Himself as the "abomination of desolation" that would cause such unspeakable catastrophe in the world at that time (verses 15-21 inclusive). |
Re: The Timing Of End Time Events by Drusilla(f): 8:55pm On Jul 30, 2006 |
Malik, Historically Christians have always said that Daniel 9:27 has always been said to be about Jesus Christ. It is only the recent rapture folks who have reinterpreted this to mean the 'antichrist'. Having this many and more christians who have been preaching that Dan. 9:27 was about Jesus for hundreds of years, doesn't make it any more true. I just want you to understand that you are in fact the one with the 'new' belief about who this is. You do not have to go through each one but I just offer these so you can see how what are considered some of the biggest christian leaders and some of the oldest bible commentators have always said it is about Jesus. I will deal with the construction of the verses in my next post.
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Re: The Timing Of End Time Events by Drusilla(f): 9:00pm On Jul 30, 2006 |
Malik, The he in verse 27 refers to Christ. Not to the antiChrist. Let me show you the exact same identical contruction in another passage. Jehoram being talked about 2Ch 21:5 Jehoram was thirty and two years old when he began to reign, and he reigned eight years in Jerusalem. Jehoram being talked about 2Ch 21:6 And he walked in the way of the kings of Israel, like as did the house of Ahab: for he had the daughter of Ahab to wife: and he wrought that which was evil in the eyes of the LORD. The Lord being talked about 2Ch 21:7 Howbeit the LORD would not destroy the house of David, because of the covenant that he had made with David, and as he promised to give a light to him and to his sons for ever. Now this next one just says HIS, according to the way you have read Daniel, we must now believe that this HIS goes with the person talked about in the verse 7, that would mean this verse 8 was talking about the Lord 2Ch 21:8 In his days the Edomites revolted from under the dominion of Judah, and made themselves a king. Which as you can clearly see, that it is refering to in Jehoram's day, not the Lord's day. This is the first one, I am going to show it to you again in another one. |
Re: The Timing Of End Time Events by Drusilla(f): 9:02pm On Jul 30, 2006 |
Malik, Here is another. According to the way you are reading Daniel, we must believe the "he" in verse 27 is talking about the Anti Christ mentioned in verse 26 and NOT to Christ mentioned in all 4 verses. Watch this now: This is about Jesus Mar 7:34 And looking up to heaven, he sighed, and saith unto him, Ephphatha, that is, Be opened. This is about the deaf and dumb guy Mar 7:35 And straightway his ears were opened, and the string of his tongue was loosed, and he spake plain. According to the way that you insist that we must read Daniel, then this NEXT he in 36 must be the deaf and dumb guy, just referred to in 35 Mar 7:36 And he charged them that they should tell no man: but the more he charged them, so much the more a great deal they published it; But it is not, is it? So the idea that the Daniel Verse 9:27 MUST refer back to the antiChrist in verse 26 because he is the last one talked about, does not pan out. It's just not true. The verse refers to the Messiah. |
Re: The Timing Of End Time Events by Drusilla(f): 9:06pm On Jul 30, 2006 |
Malik, In plain language, the sentence construction argument doesn't work to prove that the he in verse 27 must be talking about the last person talked about in the previous verse. |
Re: The Timing Of End Time Events by Drusilla(f): 9:10pm On Jul 30, 2006 |
Malik,
I just mean to show that what happenned to Jesus happenned in the 70th week. Thus the 70th week has to be past because we know that what happenned to Jesus 2000 years ago just about. |
Re: The Timing Of End Time Events by m4malik(m): 9:13pm On Jul 30, 2006 |
@Dru, Thanks for those references, but I'm usually not one to read commentaries before I've read the Bible. There surely are big names in the commentaries that have been much used by God. However, I'm not the one with the 'new' belief, and just because people have been preaching something for years doesn't mean that I'd have to swallow what they say if it does not correspond to what the Bible actually teaches. There's just no substance to the inference that the figure in Dan. 9:27 and Matt. 24:15 has to be Jesus Christ, unless such a person is bent on calling Him the 'abomination of desolation'. |
Re: The Timing Of End Time Events by Drusilla(f): 9:16pm On Jul 30, 2006 |
Malik, Abomination just means = HATED Desolation just means = EMPTY Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel, is when God kept the Jews out of Israel. Kept Israel Empty And of course they hated it. That's all. |
Re: The Timing Of End Time Events by m4malik(m): 9:20pm On Jul 30, 2006 |
@Dru, Matthew 24:15 - ABOMINATION - bdelugma [Gk. βδέλυγμα], meaning detestation; specifically idolatory. DESOLATION - erēmōsis [Gk. ερήμωσις], meaning despoliation, pillaging, spoiling. Is Jesus Christ the "idolatory" that causes "despoliation"? Just as an example of why I really don't lick the boots of commentators but rather get my understanding straight right out of Scripture, Barnes would see Christ in daniel 9:27, but he plays politics in Matt. 24:15 - go check it out. Unfortunately not all commentators are consistent with what they state. |
Re: The Timing Of End Time Events by Drusilla(f): 9:21pm On Jul 30, 2006 |
Malik, Jesus is the speaking to the Jews: Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. Luk 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. It was because of their treatment of Jesus that the their house was left to them DESOLATE. |
Re: The Timing Of End Time Events by Drusilla(f): 9:24pm On Jul 30, 2006 |
Malik, Mat 24:15-16 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: History records that a lot of Jews did just that, when the desolation came to Israel. |
Re: The Timing Of End Time Events by Drusilla(f): 9:25pm On Jul 30, 2006 |
Bobby, Smile. |
Re: The Timing Of End Time Events by m4malik(m): 9:38pm On Jul 30, 2006 |
Dru, why don't you calm down and look at the context rather than snatch texts to drive a pretext? Read the whole context of Matt. 24:15-21 inclusive, please. 15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. I think verse 21 gives the clue when the event in verse 15-20 inclusive will take place. This is the sad reason why all the major commentators got it wrong! Barnes et al said Daniel 9:27 refers to Christ; but when they came to Matt. 24:15, they were not so sure who was being referred to there! Why? Simply because when they got it wrong in Daniel 9, they expectedly got it knotted in Matthew 24. This is usually what happens when someone takes texts and treats them in isolation. My basic question has been and still is: Is Jesus Christ the "idolatory" ("bdelugma" [Gk. βδέλυγμα]) that causes the "desolation" ("erēmōsis" [Gk. ερήμωσις]) spoken of by the prophet Daniel? Those who say 'yes' are calling Him the idolatory! |
Re: The Timing Of End Time Events by Bobbyaf(m): 11:16pm On Jul 30, 2006 |
@ Dru Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel, is when God kept the Jews out of Israel. Just wanted to share this point with you from another angle. let us vew the text again: 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand Notice what Jesus said to those who were in his hearing by the expression "when ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, " Have you ever wondered why Jesus would expect anyone to actually see "the abomination of desolation"? From all indications it was meant to be a sign of salvation to warn them against something worse that was to arrive. Listen to what Jesus said to those who would see the "abomination of desolation" "Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains" "Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house" "Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes." "And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!" "But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day" History verifies what exactly was this abomination of desolation. Before AD70 when the actual destruction came upon the temple by the Roman army, there was a previous attempt by the same Roman army to destroy the temple, which took place in AD66. This activity was seen by the Jewish people as an abomination because of the presence of a pagan army with their banners approaching the temple walls. In fact these soldiers were actually driven off by the Jewish zealots at the time. It was this sign that Jesus referred to that when noticed by those who understood the prophecy of Daniel would be a clue for the those who believed Him to flee for the mountains. Jesus in His mercy gave them a sign. Those who overlooked the sign were either slain or suffered immensely because of the seige that took place around the temple. There was immense hunger within which witnessed parents eating their own children. Of course the desolation came 4 years after when the entire temple was completely destroyed leaving no stone upon the other as Jesus predicted. The reference "the people of the prince" as seen in Daniel 9:27 represents the general and soldiers who represented the Roman emperor. It was they who destroyed the sanctuary and killed thousands of people in the city of Jerusalem itself. |
Re: The Timing Of End Time Events by Drusilla(f): 12:11am On Jul 31, 2006 |
Malik, 15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. I would just like to ask if the Jews may have not experienced a great tribulation at that time? Do you think they were sitting in mountains of Judea, thinking to themselves that there was something worse to come, than the slaughter of over a million Jews and the rest taken as slaves, and their temple and such destroyed? As you know scriptures have meaning for more than one time period. Isreal is an an example to us. My basic question has been and still is: Is Jesus Christ the "idolatory" ("bdelugma" [Gk. βδέλυγμα]) that causes the "desolation" ("erēmōsis" [Gk. ερήμωσις]) spoken of by the prophet Daniel? Those who say 'yes' are calling Him the idolatory! Why would the bible call any human being an "idolatry", when there is a perfectly good greek word for "idolater"? G1496 εἰδωλολάτρης eidōlolatrēs i-do-lol-at'-race From G1497 and the base of G3000; an image (servant or) worshipper (literally or figuratively): - idolater. The word Abomination there does not refer to a person. Period. Not Jesus nor the antichrist. It is a hated event of desolation for the Jews. If it had of refered to a person, it would have been a different word. |
Re: The Timing Of End Time Events by Drusilla(f): 4:50am On Jul 31, 2006 |
I got to run for a minute. Any replies, I will deal with as soon as I get back. See ya then. Smile. |
Re: The Timing Of End Time Events by m4malik(m): 5:56am On Jul 31, 2006 |
@Drusilla, I beg you again to look at the text in Matthew 24:15. The exact words used in that text are - οταν ουν ιδητε το βδελυγμα της ερημωσεως το ρηθεν δια δανιηλ του προφητου SBεστως TAεστος εν τοπω αγιω ο αναγινωσκων νοειτω. Notice the two words emboldened in red - (a) βδελυγμα = (bdelugma) - detestation, specifically idolatory. (b) ερημωσεως = (erēmōsis) - despoliation, pillaging, spoiling. The word used for 'abomination' in that verse is not ειδωλολάτρης (eidōlolatrēs) but βδελυγμα (bdelugma), and the latter is used in Greek to express something 'detestable' and specifically idolatory (See a Greek NT lexicon or Strong's Exhaustive Concordance or Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries). At any rate, the question still stands as to if at all the figure called "abomination of desolation" refers to Jesus Himself? This is where a lot of commentators and Bible students get confused, because they understand that the context would not point to Jesus as "the abomination," and then they wonder if actually Daniel 9:27 was referring to Jesus in the first place. It is clear that those who say that Jesus was the one referred to in Matt. 24:15 are in fact calling Him "the abomination!" Does that make any sense according to the context? |
Re: The Timing Of End Time Events by m4malik(m): 6:47am On Jul 31, 2006 |
Drusilla: Again, the answer to your question is in that very verse, and perhaps you'd like to look at it again - "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matt. 24:21). Notice a few things about the tribulation spoken of here: (a) it would be "such as was not since the beginning of the world" (b) "to this time" (at the time Christ spoke) (c) "no, nor ever shall be" Nothing in history was comparable to the tribulation that would befall the Jews as Jesus prophetically declared in that verse. There have been times in history when Jews came under heavy tribulation - during Daniel's time as well when the Jews were carried off captive by Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon; back in AD66 and AD70; . . . and not too long ago in the last century when Hitler murdered millions more then at anytime in history. All these are not to be compared to the tribulation spoken of by Jesus, for there would be none like it in the history of the world, no, nor ever shall be! Drusilla: Glad you know that, and it helps to very carefully consider all things before fixating our idea on any particular interpretation of events. Drusilla: I'm not the writer of the Bible, only shared what I saw there. It is in carefully reading the context and construct of that verse that in fact most commentators are agreed that "abomination of desolation" could not be referring to an event but rather to a person or persons who shall "stand in the holy place" (Matt. 24:15). They would see the figure (whether an individual or group of persons collectively) stand in the holy place as a sign for them to understand the events that would follow. Drusilla: You'd have to speak to your commentators and convince them otherwise than they stated. Even Bobbyaf here does not agree with you - Bobbyaf: In any case, other commentaries on that verse mostly identify "the abomination of desolation" not as an event; but rather as either a sinister individual or an enemy army force. Robertson's Word Pictures "The desolation in the mind of Jesus is apparently the Roman army (Luke 21:20) in the temple, an application of the words of Daniel to this dread event." Barnes (Albert Barnes Notes on the Bible) "This is a Hebrew expression, meaning an abominable or hateful destroyer. The Gentiles were all held in abomination by the Jews, Acts 10:28. The abomination of desolation means the Roman army, and is so explained by Luke 21:20. The Roman army is further called the “abomination” on account of the images of the emperor, and the eagles, carried in front of the legions, and regarded by the Romans with divine honors. Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible "This abomination of desolation, St. Luke, (Luke21:20-21), refers to the Roman army; and this abomination standing in the holy place is the Roman army besieging Jerusalem; this, our Lord says, is what was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, in the ninth and eleventh chapters of his prophecy; and so let every one who reads these prophecies understand them; and in reference to this very event they are understood by the rabbins." The context of Matthew 24:15 does not identify "the abomination of desolation" as an event - as the event does not "stand in the holy place." |
Re: The Timing Of End Time Events by m4malik(m): 8:10am On Jul 31, 2006 |
@Bobbyaf & Dru, I notice you both have some difficulty being consistent with your convictions, and you're not making it any easier for your pals. In a moment you stated that the figure in Daniel 9:27 that causes desolation was Jesus or Christ, and Bobby you went on to quote Matt. 24:15 as confirming that. However, you stated retracting on that assertion when you saw that the context does not give credence to your previous idea, so that while Dru denies her previous assertion that she saw Christ in the texts, for Bobby the Jesus you earlier saw in those texts becomes a Roman Emperor! Let me show you - In reference to Daniel 9:27 Drusilla said: Drusilla:[size=10pt: And Again, Drusilla: Now you can see that Drusilla was convinced that the fugure in Daniel 9:27 was Christ, the Messiah. The Case of Matthew 24:15 Now tying the strings together, Bobbyaf introduces Matt. 24:15 and said - Bobbyaf:[size=10pt: So, Bobby says that the figure in Daniel 9:27 "clearly has to be Jesus the Messiah", and he next quotes Matt. 24:15 to buttress his assertion, making the inferences that (1) "is confirmed in Matthew by Jesus' own words" that Dan. 9:27 was pointing to the Messiah; (2) the "he" is Jesus who would make Jerusalem desolate even until the end. So far so good until. . . the moment you both began to realise that the contexts of the texts you quoted did not give credence to your assertions, you began to retract and renege on your earlier convictions. Take a look - Drusilla: And Bobbyaf? This is his reneged opinion - Bobbyaf: Whatever happened to your earlier conviction that - "The grammer shows clearly it has to be Jesus the Messiah"?? So, which is it in Daniel 9:27 - "Jesus the Messiah," or "the general and soldiers who represented the Roman emperor"?? This is just my observation, and the reason I have begged time and again that you guys just calm down and prayerfully consider any text before you pour out anything. None of us is above mistakes; but I hardly know what to do with a mistake that is strongly opinionated without carefully reading texts in their contexts. |
Re: The Timing Of End Time Events by syrup(f): 10:49am On Aug 02, 2006 |
Wow, @m4malik! Good job, you're very persuasive with your careful analysis. @Drusilla & Bobbyaf, you guys should really look into the way you interpret issues. It helps to not treat verses in isolation so that we don't read you wrongly. Cheers. |
Re: The Timing Of End Time Events by Bobbyaf(m): 4:51am On Aug 03, 2006 |
@ Malik Ok I could have made a quoting error when I used verse 27 for the people of the prince. Sorry about that! It wasn't done for the reasons you have quoted. Just to make it clear let me quote Daniel 9:25-27 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. There can be no doubt who that prince is, right? 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. In this verse as was said before, the people of the prince represents the Roman attempt in destroying the temple in AD66, and its final success in so doing in AD70. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. I am saying that the he here in verse 27 is Christ, and not the prince used in the second half of verse 26, which grammatically cannot be correct when it is seen as the same he in verse 27. The people in verse 26 is the subject. It is they who do the work of the prince or that person who is in command, or who issued the order for the temple dstruction. There are different commenteries about who is the prince in the latter half of verse 26. Some say it was the Roman general Titus, and some say it could have been a sub-ruler to Caesar. In either case such a prince had no power to confirm the covenant, which no doubt was the New Covenant. Only the real Prince of peace could have confirmed(strengthened), seeing that is what the word means, with His blood, the New Covenant. Another point I'd like to raise is about another function that would be performed by the Messiah, and which is: he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. This means that Christ through His death abolished the ceremonial sacrifices. Christ also shall cause the demise of the temple, and since He is in control of the affairs of history, no power on earth would have been able to prevent such a demise, or attempt to reverse it. Thats why the text went on to say that through the overspreading of abominations, the temple would not only be destroyed, but remain that way until the end of the world. |
Re: The Timing Of End Time Events by m4malik(m): 6:28am On Aug 03, 2006 |
Dear @Bobbyaf, You keep making the same mistakes over and over again. When carefully considering the whole event of the prophecy in Daniel 9, you'll find that verses 26 through 27 is a whole picture of a sinister individual (no doubt with an army) who wrecks havoc in the holy place. The problem with some interpretations is that in Daniel 9:27 they see Christ; but when in Matt. 24:15 Christ Himself made reference to the same Daniel's prophecy, they no longer see Christ there. Secondly, you're reading things into it that are not there, and it's only understandable because you're being carried along by the word 'covenant'. Why do you think that the 'New Covenant' is in that text when it actually is not? The new covenant is ratified as an everlasting covenant (Heb. 13:20), so it could not be the same as you're reading in Daniel 9:27 which is only for one week! If you keep reading "Christ" into Daniel 9:27, you'll continue to have the same problems with Matt. 24:15. Take your eyes off commentaries for a moment and prayerfully read the whole texts in their contexts, and you'll see that Christ is neither the figure in Daniel 9:27 nor in Matt. 24:15. It is not the Messiah who wrecks the havoc in Dan. 9, nor is He the one who does so in Matt. 24. You can't see Him in one text and refuse to see Him in the other text that makes reference to the same thing. And because it is clear that Christ is not the figure called "the abomination of desolation" in Matt. 24, it equally does not apply to Him at all in Dan. 9. |
Re: The Timing Of End Time Events by Bobbyaf(m): 7:35pm On Aug 03, 2006 |
@ Malik Dear @Bobbyaf, Well, that is easy for you or anyone else to say! But I doubt that. When carefully considering the whole event of the prophecy in Daniel 9, you'll find that verses 26 through 27 is a whole picture of a sinister individual (no doubt with an army) who wrecks havoc in the holy place. Lets look at verse 26 again. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. Didn't it mention the Messiah also and not only the other prince? Didn't it say that after the 62 weeks, (not including the previous 7 weeks mentioned before about the walls of the temple being restored), that the Messiah would be cut off? That would logically mean that the Messiah would have to be cut off in the 70th week, and to be exact in the midst of the 70th week. Look at the logics of continuity. If you interpret the cutting off of the Messiah as having taken place in AD31, to which history has alluded, then how is it that you'd readily desire us to believe that the he in verse 27 is some future Anti-Christ that will exist beyond the 21st century. There cannot be a 70 weeks or 490 years determination upon the jews if the period isn't continuous. Logics alone makes that fact un-disputed. In other words, if the 70th week is cut off from the 69th and separated as you would want us to believe, then Daniel could not in his right mind say that 70 weeks were determined upon God's people. Logic also requires that the 70th week follow immediately after the 69th week. If it doesn’t, then it cannot properly be called the 70th week! It is illogical to insert a 2,000-year gap between the 69th and 70th week. No hint of a gap is found in the prophecy itself. There is no gap between the first seven weeks and the following sixty-two weeks, so why insert one between the 69th and 70th week? This is like saying "son be in bed in 70 minutes" What if after the 69th minutes he slides out of bed and said "Dad the 70th minute hasn't started as yet." Besides, Daniel 9:27 says nothing about a seven-year period of “tribulation,” a “rebuilt” Jewish temple, or any “antichrist.” You people are reading into the scriptures so as to suit a teaching. The stated focus of this prophecy is the Messiah, not the antichrist. As a matter of fact Daniel 9 is a continuation of Daniel 8, which makes mention of a longer time prophecy of 2300 days from which the 70 weeks were cut off from. That is what the word determined means. It means cut off from, and in this case the 2300 days. BC457, AD1844 = 2300 years from this longer period was to be Bc457<, Temple restoration, >BC408<, 3 score & 2 weeks, >AD27<, Confirmation of New Covenant, >AD34 <-------49 yrs-------------> <--------434 yrs----------> <------------------7 yrs.------------------> After 49+62 weeks up to AD27 Christ was baptised and annointed from whence He commenced His ministry. In the middle of the last week being AD 31 He "was cut off" leaving the remaining 31/2 years for the finishing by His disciples of the New Covenant confirmation. Chrsit started it, and His disciples finished it. During this period the covenant was to appeal to the house of Israel specifically until AD34 where the probationary period allotted to Israel would be complete. Is it strange that after Stephen became the first martyr of the church in AD34, the very end of the period allotted, that Paul being a witness of such became the missionary to the gentiles? Ever wondered why soon after Christ died that the temple was destoyed there after? In fact 39 years after Christ died, and went back to His father, the temple was destroyed. This is more likely to fit the prophecy mentioned in verse 26 referring to the people of the prince coming to destroy. Look at what Jesus said about Jerusalem even before He died. Matthew 23: 37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. This is the desolation of which Christ spoke that was already predicted by Daniel 9:27. The problem with some interpretations is that in Daniel 9:27 they see Christ; but when in Matt. 24:15 Christ Himself made reference to the same Daniel's prophecy, they no longer see Christ there. That doesn't apply to my argument at all, because I have no problem seeing that the He in verse 27, is the Christ in matthew 24 causing the desolation by allowing the Romans to destroy the temple. God has ultimate control, and it is He who determines the course of history. Thats why Jesus implied a condition in Matthew 23. In other words if the Jewish people had fulfiled their God-given task of obeying the voice of the prophets that were sent by God through the ages, all this would not have befallen them. Secondly, you're reading things into it that are not there, and it's only understandable because you're being carried along by the word 'covenant'. Why do you think that the 'New Covenant' is in that text when it actually is not? The new covenant is ratified as an everlasting covenant (Heb. 13:20), so it could not be the same as you're reading in Daniel 9:27 which is only for one week! If it were everlasting then why is it new? If you keep reading "Christ" into Daniel 9:27, you'll continue to have the same problems with Matt. 24:15. Take your eyes off commentaries for a moment and prayerfully read the whole texts in their contexts, and you'll see that Christ is neither the figure in Daniel 9:27 nor in Matt. 24:15. I have been doing that but thanks for the advice anyway. It is not the Messiah who wrecks the havoc in Dan. 9, nor is He the one who does so in Matt. 24. You can't see Him in one text and refuse to see Him in the other text that makes reference to the same thing. And because it is clear that Christ is not the figure called "the abomination of desolation" in Matt. 24, it equally does not apply to Him at all in Dan. 9. But He allowed it! He caused it! He could have prayed to His Father and stop it, but His praying wouldn't change anything you see. It was time for action. Remember what happend to Jerusalem of old? Wasn't it the same God who allowed the babylonians to plunder it? |
Re: The Timing Of End Time Events by m4malik(m): 8:02pm On Aug 03, 2006 |
@Bobbyaf, You haven't brought anything new, but have kept going round in circles and recasting your ideas in new clichés. It's really simple: if Christ is the one who in Daniel 9:26 "shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary", then you're saying that the same Christ is the one called "the abomination of desolation" that stands in "the holy place" in Matthew 24:15! The new interpretation you've brought up now is "the He in verse 27, is the Christ in matthew 24 causing the desolation by allowing the Romans to destroy the temple". Please look well again - the verse did not say that He "allowed" - rather, it directly says in Daniel 9:26 that "the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary." In Matthew 24:15, there's no sense of Christ being "the abomination of desolation" who wrecks the havoc there. It is not Christ who causes the desolation, for that would make Him directly the abomination of desolation! With regards to the "covenant" in Daniel 9:27, you inserted the word "new" there where it does not say so. A covenant confirmed for only one week is hardly an everlasting covenant. |
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