Rev 4:11
"worthy are you, our Lord and Our God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created"

How can an all Powerful God receive power? And who and what could have given God this power?

Can anyone answer this question if you don't believe in the trinity?

If God received power then there was a time he didn't have any power.

However the bible tells us that Jesus received power.

Rev 5:12
Saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing."

Jesus received power.

Mathew 28:18
To summarize it says Jesus was given all authority in heaven and earth.

The bible says worthy is the Lamb. Worthy means deserving effort, attention, respect - having or showing qualities or abilities that merit recognition in a specific way.

In Luke 10:7
To summarize my point you can look up the full text. It says the laborer is worthy of his wages.

In other words the laborer completed a specific task.

1 Timothy 1:15
Summarized
Jesus deserving full acceptance
Why?
Because Jesus came into the world to save sinners.
Jesus completed a specific task

Revelation 5:9-10
Jesus was slain.
Because Jesus he purchased you with his blood
Because of Jesus you can become kings

1 Corinthians 6:20
For you have been bought with a price therefore glorify God in your body.

Who created all things?
John 1:3
Said Jesus created all things and nothing was created without him.

Colossians 1:16
All things were created by him and for him.

So back to revelation 4:11
In the text it says " you created all things"

Similarities between rev 5:12 and rev 7:12
Jesus received blessing so is Jehovah
Jesus received wisdom so is Jehovah
Jesus receives power so is Jehovah
Jesus receives might so is Jehovah
Jesus receives honor so is Jehovah

Do you honor the son the same as the father?

Revelation 4:11 describes Jesus

Nonsense

MightySparrow:
Nonsense

So what part is nonsense?

benalvino1:


So what part is nonsense?

dude your post is confusing that's why...takes an attentive mind to get what you're driving at!

cirmuell:
dude your post is confusing that's why...takes an attentive mind to get what you're driving at!

I am simply saying
Rev 4:11
"worthy are you, our Lord and Our God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created"

Applies to Jesus. It is another verse that shows Jesus is God.
The bible says all power and authority was created by through Jesus and for him in heaven and earth... Yet this verse says our Lord and our God receives power.

Do you understand now? Jesus and the father share same attributes and authority that is why Jesus is at the right hand of God.

Absurd Examples of Trinitarian 'Reasoning'


"Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor... in the Old Testament." - The New Encyclopedia Britannica, 1985, Micropedia, vol. 11, p. 928.

Trinitarians themselves admit that "The Trinity...is an INFERRED doctrine, gathered ECLECTICALLY from the entire Canon". - page 630 of the highly trinitarian publication, Today's Dictionary of the Bible, Bethany House Publishers, 1982

Not only is the word 'trinity' not found in the Bible, but the doctrine itself is nowhere to be found. Couple this with the fact that it is also beyond logical reasoning for 1+1+1 to =1. It is beyond logical reasoning for three or even two persons to actually be the same person. It is beyond logical reasoning for a "father" and a "son" to be the same person. Scripture does not allow for such a view of God: "God is not a God of confusion." -1 Corinthians 14:33 (RSV)

Because of this, the “proof” offered by trinitarians is always specious, vague, and/or ambiguous. So Trinitarians are forced to rely on a certain type of 'reasoning'. Yes, by employing Trinitarian's exact same 'reasoning', with a little research and imagination, many others in the Bible can also be rationalized as being God! Below are but a few examples:

Moses is said to be god to Pharaoh and Aaron. (Ex. 4:16, Ex. 7:1)

Paul said "I am" twice. (1 Cor. 15:10)

How about picking any one of Jesus' believers since his believers are supposed to be one as Jesus and his Father are one? (John 17:11, 22)

How about the judges in Israel since Jesus used them being called gods in his defense when they thought he was saying that he was god? (John 10:34-36; Psalms 82:6)

How about Luke 9:26 (which actually says, "when [Jesus] comes in the glory [singular] of him [Jesus] and of the Father and of the holy angels"? Paraphrasing a trinitarian's case for Mt. 28:19, Luke 9:26 is also "first asserting the unity of the three by combining them all within the bounds of the single [glory], and then throwing into emphasis the distinctness of each by introducing them in turn with the repeated article." But, here, of course, the angels, too, make up the "trinity." We have, then, God the Father, God the Son, and God the holy angels!

How about Othniel or Ehud since God sent them as savior in the past? (Judges 3:9,15)

How about one of the apostles since they were authorized to forgive sins? (John 20:20-23)

How about one of Jesus followers as the King James shows that they will receive worship? (Rev 3:9; Luke 14:10)

How about the blind beggar? At John 9:9 the blind beggar that Jesus healed said "ego eimi", or I am.

BIBLESPEAKS:
Absurd Examples of Trinitarian 'Reasoning'


"Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor... in the Old Testament." - The New Encyclopedia Britannica, 1985, Micropedia, vol. 11, p. 928.

Trinitarians themselves admit that "The Trinity...is an INFERRED doctrine, gathered ECLECTICALLY from the entire Canon". - page 630 of the highly trinitarian publication, Today's Dictionary of the Bible, Bethany House Publishers, 1982

Not only is the word 'trinity' not found in the Bible, but the doctrine itself is nowhere to be found. Couple this with the fact that it is also beyond logical reasoning for 1+1+1 to =1. It is beyond logical reasoning for three or even two persons to actually be the same person. It is beyond logical reasoning for a "father" and a "son" to be the same person. Scripture does not allow for such a view of God: "God is not a God of confusion." -1 Corinthians 14:33 (RSV)

Because of this, the “proof” offered by trinitarians is always specious, vague, and/or ambiguous. So Trinitarians are forced to rely on a certain type of 'reasoning'. Yes, by employing Trinitarian's exact same 'reasoning', with a little research and imagination, many others in the Bible can also be rationalized as being God! Below are but a few examples:

Moses is said to be god to Pharaoh and Aaron. (Ex. 4:16, Ex. 7:1)

Paul said "I am" twice. (1 Cor. 15:10)

How about picking any one of Jesus' believers since his believers are supposed to be one as Jesus and his Father are one? (John 17:11, 22)

How about the judges in Israel since Jesus used them being called gods in his defense when they thought he was saying that he was god? (John 10:34-36; Psalms 82:6)

How about Luke 9:26 (which actually says, "when [Jesus] comes in the glory [singular] of him [Jesus] and of the Father and of the holy angels"? Paraphrasing a trinitarian's case for Mt. 28:19, Luke 9:26 is also "first asserting the unity of the three by combining them all within the bounds of the single [glory], and then throwing into emphasis the distinctness of each by introducing them in turn with the repeated article." But, here, of course, the angels, too, make up the "trinity." We have, then, God the Father, God the Son, and God the holy angels!

How about Othniel or Ehud since God sent them as savior in the past? (Judges 3:9,15)

How about one of the apostles since they were authorized to forgive sins? (John 20:20-23)

How about one of Jesus followers as the King James shows that they will receive worship? (Rev 3:9; Luke 14:10)

How about the blind beggar? At John 9:9 the blind beggar that Jesus healed said "ego eimi", or I am.

Dude how about you address the verses I presented instead of asking questions to answer questions?

The argument trinity is not in the bible therefore the teaching is wrong is getting old. The word bible is not in the bible... But we use it to describe the scriptures isn't it?

You did not deny that the bible said our God received power and who received power? Jesus.. The bible again said Jesus is God.

These are praises or act of worship giving to God. God has always been powerful and glorious, wether the angels or humans are there or not.

Power is to God as is His beginningless existence. in otherwords, power has no begining and no end as far as God is concerned.

If we tore your line, we will be met with many challenges. for eg:

a. if your thesis is correct, that God didnt have power at sometime in the past, how then did he receive it?

b. Did He receive it after he created angels and humans? If so, how then did He get the power to create in the first place, since power is essential in creating?

c. Or we could ask, who gave him the power, and how did that one who gave Him the power come about since He ALONE has always existed? how did that one get his own power then?

Note that "the... power" spoken of is the one given by His creatures. In other words, they are saying that God deserves it.

therefore, What you see in that revelation 4:11 is an expression of praises to God.

Since they (24 elders) are talking about the glory and power we all give to God, how then do we always give it? Is it by going to heaven and elevating him up above His usual sitting throne or elevating Him to another level?

No. His throne is the Highest, and His power is too.

You normally give God glory in many ways, eg by singing praises to Him. the verse is not discussing what God naturally possess as his personality, but what you give as an act of worship to Him.

You give glory for eg by singing paises

You give Him your power by using this power of yours to declare His excellences.

I do so by preaching to people, walking long distances, even in a heavy sun. That's my power given to Him as a way of worshiping Him.

benalvino1:


Dude how about you address the verses I presented instead of asking questions to answer questions?

The argument trinity is not in the bible therefore the teaching is wrong is getting old. The word bible is not in the bible... But we use it to describe the scriptures isn't it?

You did not deny that the bible said our God received power and who received power? Jesus.. The bible again said Jesus is God.

The word "bible" is in the bible. That the word was not employed by translators to describe the greek word for bible doesnt mean that it is not in the bible. Maybe they did so cos employing that term could bring confusion to an english reader.

It is true that your point above is sensible somehow, but the "bible" you presented as an eg isn't a good one. but one will wonder why such an important relationship is never directly spoken of in the scriptures, hence his point. Dont want to derail d thread.

JMAN05:
These are praises or act of worship giving to God. God has always been powerful and glorious, wether the angels or humans are there or not.

Power is to God as is His beginningless existence. in otherwords, power has no begining and no end as far as God is concerned.

If we tore your line, we will be met with many challenges. for eg:

a. if your thesis is correct, that God didnt have power at sometime in the past, how then did he receive it?

b. Did He receive it after he created angels and humans? If so, how then did He get the power to create in the first place, since power is essential in creating?

c. Or we could ask, who gave him the power, and how did that one who gave Him the power come about since He ALONE has always existed? how did that one get his own power then?

Note that "the... power" spoken of is the one given by His creatures. In other words, they are saying that God deserves it.

therefore, What you see in that revelation 4:11 is an expression of praises to God.

Since they (24 elders) are talking about the glory and power we all give to God, how then do we always give it? Is it by going to heaven and elevating him up above His usual sitting throne or elevating Him to another level?

No. His throne is the Highest, and His power is too.

You normally give God glory in many ways, eg by singing praises to Him. the verse is not discussing what God naturally possess as his personality, but what you give as an act of worship to Him.

You give glory for eg by singing paises

You give Him your power by using this power of yours to declare His excellences.

I do so by preaching to people, walking long distances, even in a heavy sun. That's my power given to Him as a way of worshiping Him.

Thank you for proving my point... Like I said all authority and power in heaven and earth belongs to Jesus. There wasn't a time God was without power and if they gave God power it means something created God... But the verse and my point is that Jesus is God. The bible says all in
Rev 5:12
Saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing."

We know that Jesus was given power yet the bible says our God was given power.

What am saying is the bible calls Jesus our God.

benalvino1:


Thank you for proving my point... Like I said all authority and power in heaven and earth belongs to Jesus. There wasn't a time God was without power and if they gave God power it means something created God... But the verse and my point is that Jesus is God. The bible says all in
Rev 5:12
Saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing."

We know that Jesus was given power yet the bible says our God was given power.

What am saying is the bible calls Jesus our God.

I didnt say all these you imply.

I never said someone gave God power which is part and passel of His personality.

I stated the folly of believing that someone gave God power. It is impossible!

God himself has no beginning and end, and His power is part of Him, He never got it somewhere.

We rather give God our power by expending that our power in His service. This doesnt affect God's power which He timelessly possess.

You dont compare God with Jesus. Jesus said that just as we have the Almighty as our Father and God, he also has the Almighty Jehovah as his own Father and God. see John 20:17

You dont come to create a link just because Rev 4:11 and 5:12 said both reveived power. No. Even Jesus disciples were spoken of as receiving power. see Acts 1:8.

Does the fact Jesus' disciples receive power make them God?

Even rev 5:12 talks about a lamb that was slaughtered. Is God said to be "a lamb"? was God slaughtered?

Remember that Jesus never had this privilege from inception. God gave him the authority he has.

But God has always been the Almighty.

Jesus was never in a superior position, but God exalted him there. Phil 2:9.

And all the praises Jesus receive is transferred to the "glory of God the Father". Phil 2:11

JMAN05:


I didnt say all these you imply.

I never said someone gave God power which is part and passel of His personality.

I stated the folly of believing that someone gave God power. It is impossible!

God himself has no beginning and end, and His power is part of Him, He never got it somewhere.

We rather give God our power by expending that our power in His service. This doesnt affect God's power which He timelessly possess.

You dont compare God with Jesus. Jesus said that just as we have the Almighty as our Father and God, he also has the Almighty Jehovah as his own Father and God. see John 20:17

You dont come to create a link just because Rev 4:11 and 5:12 said both reveived power. No. Even Jesus disciples were spoken of as receiving power. see Acts 1:8.

Does the fact Jesus' disciples receive power make them God?

Even rev 5:12 talks about a lamb that was slaughtered. Is God said to be "a lamb"? was God slaughtered?

Remember that Jesus never had this privilege from inception. God gave him the authority he has.

But God has always been the Almighty.

Jesus was never in a superior position, but God exalted him there. Phil 2:9.

And all the praises Jesus receive is transferred to the "glory of God the Father". Phil 2:11

Responding to your last verse Phil 2:11
You forget the other verses prior to 11 which states the position Jesus was and what he gave away and later exalted
Jesus stated that "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me" after His resurrection.

Prior to His resurrection, He had willingly submitted Himself to the confinements of humanity, relinquishing the glory He had in the Godhead in order to become Mary's baby. He had emptied Himself, as it were, in order to add human nature to His divine nature. He had become a little lower than the angels. In that state of submission and humility, He had entrusted His glory to God, having been promised it would be His again, after the resurrection. But first, He had to die an agonizing death. Before going to the cross He prayed with the disciples in Gethsemane:

"Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." - John 17:5. Thus Jesus was getting back what He had entrusted to the Father during His confinement to human flesh - John 1:14.

Just as there are differences of relationship within the Godhead, there is clearly delegation of power. The Bible shows this a lot, and Matthew 28:18 is one such example.

The fact that the Father commands all the angels to worship Christ (in Hebrews 1:6) proves that Christ is not a different God, for then God would be authorizing polytheism! No, Jesus subsists within the Godhead and integral to the One Being of God.

God gave him the authority
Yet we know all power and authority is created by him and for him and the explanation up there explains this. I will continue to address others shortly if time lets me

benalvino1:


So what part is nonsense?

All of it.


.

benalvino1:


Responding to your last verse Phil 2:11
You forget the other verses prior to 11 which states the position Jesus was and what he gave away and later exalted
Jesus stated that "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me" after His resurrection.

Prior to His resurrection, He had willingly submitted Himself to the confinements of humanity, relinquishing the glory He had in the Godhead in order to become Mary's baby. He had emptied Himself, as it were, in order to add human nature to His divine nature. He had become a little lower than the angels. In that state of submission and humility, He had entrusted His glory to God, having been promised it would be His again, after the resurrection. But first, He had to die an agonizing death. Before going to the cross He prayed with the disciples in Gethsemane:

"Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." - John 17:5. Thus Jesus was getting back what He had entrusted to the Father during His confinement to human flesh - John 1:14.

Just as there are differences of relationship within the Godhead, there is clearly delegation of power. The Bible shows this a lot, and Matthew 28:18 is one such example.

The fact that the Father commands all the angels to worship Christ (in Hebrews 1:6) proves that Christ is not a different God, for then God would be authorizing polytheism! No, Jesus subsists within the Godhead and integral to the One Being of God.

God gave him the authority
Yet we know all power and authority is created by him and for him and the explanation up there explains this. I will continue to address others shortly if time lets me

Many of what you said above were correct. Jesus left many privileges when he came on earth. To be a human is a mark of humility. Please take note that the standard trinitarian teaching is that Jesus was God-man when on earth, so he had all the authorities as did God even while on earth. if not, he cant be a God-man. Bear that in mind cos your post seem to ignore that.

With that in mind, and the bible saying that God exalted him, does it not now mean that Jesus is above God? tooth for thought!

Now, the prayer Jesus made for his father to restore him to the glory he earlier had is among what God gave him, but God gave him more.

For instance, though Jesus had glory prior to his coming on earth, it was after his resurrection that God gave him all authority in heaven and on earth.

It is against trinitarian teaching to believe that Jesus' power was delegated nor that he was given authority. That's one of the things that show the bible doesnt support this dogma. why? God almighty has always been in authority and had always been the most powerful. He is the Almighty remember? thats why he differs from Jesus.

2. It was after his sacrifice that he was given a name above every other name, that is why you pray and end "in Jesus name". Those in prechristian era were never required to do so. john 16:24

3. It was also after the sacrifice that he became a mediator.

4. It was also after the sacrifice that he was elevated as a king of God's kingdom.

5. the command God gave to the angels to "do obeisance" (proskyneos) to Jesus in that hebrews you quoted was never given prior to his coming on earth.

Yes, God really elevated him to a position above what he previously had, could anyone elevate the Almighty? couldnt he have been innately elevated?

But all Jesus was given is to earn glory for God, not to himself. to the glory of God the Father. phil 2:11

However, this is not the main issue of the thread. I await the other point you promise to post.

BIBLESPEAKS:
Absurd Examples of Trinitarian 'Reasoning'


"Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor... in the Old Testament." - The New Encyclopedia Britannica, 1985, Micropedia, vol. 11, p. 928.

Trinitarians themselves admit that "The Trinity...is an INFERRED doctrine, gathered ECLECTICALLY from the entire Canon". - page 630 of the highly trinitarian publication, Today's Dictionary of the Bible, Bethany House Publishers, 1982

Not only is the word 'trinity' not found in the Bible, but the doctrine itself is nowhere to be found. Couple this with the fact that it is also beyond logical reasoning for 1+1+1 to =1. It is beyond logical reasoning for three or even two persons to actually be the same person. It is beyond logical reasoning for a "father" and a "son" to be the same person. Scripture does not allow for such a view of God: "God is not a God of confusion." -1 Corinthians 14:33 (RSV)

Because of this, the “proof” offered by trinitarians is always specious, vague, and/or ambiguous. So Trinitarians are forced to rely on a certain type of 'reasoning'. Yes, by employing Trinitarian's exact same 'reasoning', with a little research and imagination, many others in the Bible can also be rationalized as being God! Below are but a few examples:

Moses is said to be god to Pharaoh and Aaron. (Ex. 4:16, Ex. 7:1)

Paul said "I am" twice. (1 Cor. 15:10)

How about picking any one of Jesus' believers since his believers are supposed to be one as Jesus and his Father are one? (John 17:11, 22)

How about the judges in Israel since Jesus used them being called gods in his defense when they thought he was saying that he was god? (John 10:34-36; Psalms 82:6)

How about Luke 9:26 (which actually says, "when [Jesus] comes in the glory [singular] of him [Jesus] and of the Father and of the holy angels"? Paraphrasing a trinitarian's case for Mt. 28:19, Luke 9:26 is also "first asserting the unity of the three by combining them all within the bounds of the single [glory], and then throwing into emphasis the distinctness of each by introducing them in turn with the repeated article." But, here, of course, the angels, too, make up the "trinity." We have, then, God the Father, God the Son, and God the holy angels!

How about Othniel or Ehud since God sent them as savior in the past? (Judges 3:9,15)

How about one of the apostles since they were authorized to forgive sins? (John 20:20-23)

How about one of Jesus followers as the King James shows that they will receive worship? (Rev 3:9; Luke 14:10)

How about the blind beggar? At John 9:9 the blind beggar that Jesus healed said "ego eimi", or I am.

Why are you using logic to analyze biblical scriptures when the bible says somewhere that "the wisdom of men is foolishness before God?"

Take the absurdities as they come. That's the whole point of FAITH. You must believe what is not only unseen by UNLIKELY.

Weah96:


Why are you using logic to analyze biblical scriptures when the bible says somewhere that "the wisdom of men is foolishness before God?"

Take the absurdities as they come. That's the whole point of FAITH. You must believe what is not only unseen by UNLIKELY.

No, faith is backed by evidence. The scriptures define faith as "...the EVIDENT demonstration of realities that are not seen". Heb 11:1.

The bible encourages logic in weighing doctrine.

If you read Acts 17:3, you ll see that Paul "proved" by references. This csnt be done without being logical.

- At Luke 20:41-44, we see Jesus use logic there.

- At Acts 18:28, Apollos thoroughly proved the Jews to be wrong. that's logic on the go.

JMAN05:


No, faith is backed by evidence. The scriptures define faith as "...the EVIDENT demonstration of realities that are not seen". Heb 11:1.

Do I look like a mumu to you? That is NOT what Hebrews 11:1 says. Stop LYING.

It doesn't even make sense. Faith requires no evidence, that's the whole point. Here's what Hebrews 11 really says:

Hebrews 11 King James Version (KJV)

11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.


Do you see now? The EVIDENCE of unseen things is the FAITH itself, not real evidence.

Weah96:


Do I look like a mumu to you? That is NOT what Hebrews 11:1 says. Stop LYING.

It doesn't even make sense. Faith requires no evidence, that's the whole point. Here's what Hebrews 11 really says:

Hebrews 11 King James Version (KJV)

11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.


Do you see now? The EVIDENCE of unseen things is the FAITH itself, not real evidence.

Try reading another bible translation, compare them. What is even the meaning of the word "Evidence" as translated in KJV.

benalvino1:
Rev 4:11
"worthy are you, our Lord and Our God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created"

How can an all Powerful God receive power? And who and what could have given God this power?

Can anyone answer this question if you don't believe in the trinity?

If God received power then there was a time he didn't have any power.

However the bible tells us that Jesus received power.

Rev 5:12
Saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing."

Jesus received power.

Mathew 28:18
To summarize it says Jesus was given all authority in heaven and earth.

The bible says worthy is the Lamb. Worthy means deserving effort, attention, respect - having or showing qualities or abilities that merit recognition in a specific way.

In Luke 10:7
To summarize my point you can look up the full text. It says the laborer is worthy of his wages.

In other words the laborer completed a specific task.

1 Timothy 1:15
Summarized
Jesus deserving full acceptance
Why?
Because Jesus came into the world to save sinners.
Jesus completed a specific task

Revelation 5:9-10
Jesus was slain.
Because Jesus he purchased you with his blood
Because of Jesus you can become kings

1 Corinthians 6:20
For you have been bought with a price therefore glorify God in your body.

Who created all things?
John 1:3
Said Jesus created all things and nothing was created without him.

Colossians 1:16
All things were created by him and for him.

So back to revelation 4:11
In the text it says " you created all things"

Similarities between rev 5:12 and rev 7:12
Jesus received blessing so is Jehovah
Jesus received wisdom so is Jehovah
Jesus receives power so is Jehovah
Jesus receives might so is Jehovah
Jesus receives honor so is Jehovah

Do you honor the son the same as the father?

Revelation 4:11 describes Jesus

Please, STOP grabbing at straws to support your quack Trinity doctrine, it is getting really old.

Instead of speculating, hold on to clear cut bible teachings. Jesus call the Father his God so many times. His disciples calls the Father "the God of Christ" a couple of times. The demons Jesus cast out refer to him as "the Son of God" not "God the son", if you can't spot the difference between the two title, then there is no reason to discuss further.

Eg: John 14:31, Jesus (Your God) said "but I do as THE FATHER HAS COMMANDED ME....". You see "your God" obeys the command of "my God- Jehovah". Do you know the implication of that?

RikoduoSennin:


Try reading another bible translation, compare them. What is even the meaning of the word "Evidence" as translated in KJV.

Hebrews 11 New International Version (NIV)

Faith in Action
11 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.


Is this one better? Do you see it now? Faith IS the ASSURANCE itself. There is no EVIDENCE just FAITH. That's why people walk on water, snakes talk, humans prance around weeks after they were buried, and virgins give birth without human seed. These things are unsupported by common sense and reality. They don't occur in nature.

The only evidence available which proves that snakes talk and virgins give birth is BLIND FAITH. Your faith is the proof. It's kindergarten antics, to be honest. Remember when you would ask a friend in school a question, and he would repeat the same question back to you? That is what FAITH is doing to those of us who depend on our senses.

Weah96:


Do I look like a mumu to you? That is NOT what Hebrews 11:1 says. Stop LYING.

It doesn't even make sense. Faith requires no evidence, that's the whole point. Here's what Hebrews 11 really says:

Hebrews 11 King James Version (KJV)

11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.


Do you see now? The EVIDENCE of unseen things is the FAITH itself, not real evidence.

You are right, however, the evidence of things not seen is faith too. shey? You understand now?

So evidence is so convincing that faith is said to be it.

The other scriptures I gave you should shows we arent gullible because of faith. We need prove from the scriptures before we accept a teaching. If not, we will be moved like a boat without a rudder.

JMAN05:




So evidence is so convincing that faith is said to be it.

.

No, there is NO EVIDENCE, or the evidence is incredibly UNconvincing, so the faith of the person replaces it.

Remember that annoying kid from your childhood who liked to repeat your words?

Using faith as evidence, as Hebrews 11 suggests, is to assume the role of that annoying kid. It's a conversation stopper.

Weah96:

No, there is NO EVIDENCE, or the evidence is incredibly UNconvincing, so the faith of the person replaces it.

Remember that annoying kid from your childhood who liked to repeat your words?

Using faith as evidence, as Hebrews 11 suggests, is to assume the role of that annoying kid. It's a conversation stopper.

Faith is not credulity. Before someone believes a thing, he has reasons for believing it. Because we have faith that God exists, and He is capable of fulfilling His promises, we put faith in His word.

So there must be conviction that something is true before you believe in it. The greek word "elegkhos" literally means "convincing evidence". Therefore that evidence for conviction is so positive that faith is said to be it. Faith follows the things heard. Rom 10:17.

The things heard have to be convincing before one puts faith in it. At your leisure read the entire account of Jesus and the Samaritan woman.

After she spoke to his people about how Jesus was able to see her past, the account says: 'Many Samaritans put faith in Jesus'. verse 39 of chapter 4 of John.

Why did they put faith? because what they heard is so convincing that it is inexcusable. So faith results from the things heard, if one presents statement without appropriate proofs, it could hardly be expected that anyone will put faith in it.

in short Putting faith in everything you hear is not what the christian faith is all about.

So logical prove is essential before one casts faith in something. I have given the eg of Jesus, Paul and Apollos who saw it fit to use logic.

Weah96:



Hebrews 11 New International Version (NIV)

Faith in Action
11 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.


Is this one better? Do you see it now? Faith IS the ASSURANCE itself. There is no EVIDENCE just FAITH. That's why people walk on water, snakes talk, humans prance around weeks after they were buried, and virgins give birth without human seed. These things are unsupported by common sense and reality. They don't occur in nature.

The only evidence available which proves that snakes talk and virgins give birth is BLIND FAITH. Your faith is the proof. It's kindergarten antics, to be honest. Remember when you would ask a friend in school a question, and he would repeat the same question back to you? That is what FAITH is doing to those of us who depend on our senses.

You still don't get it, even after comparing different translations of Hebrew 11:1.

Ok, Now try reading from verse 2 to the end. HINT: That chapter mentions what Faith is, list many men and women who have shown it and HOW THEY SHOWED FAITH.

Eg. Q: Why did Abraham display faith when he about to sacrifice his son -
A: "THE REASON" is he reckon God was able to bring him back to life.

Q: Why is that?
A: Because God has the Power to make an old man like him and old woman like Sarah have a child (Evidence of God's power) and he is ASSURED of God's promise that Isaac and not another child will be his only heir (his CONCLUSION, Isaac can't remain dead or God is a liar).

Q: What follows?
A: Faith backed by ACTION- he moved, carried materials and attempt to sacrifice his son.

We put faith, because of "Evidence" that God has done something similiar before or has shown that he could do it.

There most be a "Reason" why we put/Have Faith in God's word.

RikoduoSennin:


Eg. Q: Why did Abraham display faith when he about to sacrifice his son -
A: "THE REASON" is he reckon God was able to bring him back to life.

Before we go any further, does this make sense to you? A God asking someone to slice the neck of their only child in obedience?

I see wicked men written all over this, not some God.
God would be a re)tarded 3yr old to ask a man to kill his son, with his own hands.

And to make things worse, the God who supposedly made this demand was capable of reading the minds of human beings.

He would have known the strength of Abraham's belief in him, rendering the sacrifice redundant.

Weah96:


Before we go any further, does this make sense to you? A God asking someone to slice the neck of their only child in obedience?

I see wicked men written all over this, not some God.
God would be a re)tarded 3yr old to ask a man to kill his son, with his own hands.

And to make things worse, the God who supposedly made this demand was capable of reading the minds of human beings.

He would have known the strength of Abraham's belief in him, rendering the sacrifice redundant.

No need to derail the train of thought.

Create a thread with this topic/issue you raised, send me the link, we will discuss it in full.

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Faith without work is dead- Abraham had to prove his Faith by action- not by having his heart/mind read by God.

Abraham was spare sacrificing his son, but God did not spare himself when he Sacrifice his son for Man's sake. The events of Abraham picture that- what will happen in the future.

You ask you son to do a dangerous task, you knew he could not do it or you would let he do it, but you want to see if he will try- due to his high regard for you. Human parents do that.

RikoduoSennin:




You ask you son to do a dangerous task, you knew he could not do it or you would let he do it, but you want to see if he will try- due to his high regard for you. Human parents do that.

Human parents, you say eh? That's my point.

RikoduoSennin:


Please, STOP grabbing at straws to support your quack Trinity doctrine, it is getting really old.

Instead of speculating, hold on to clear cut bible teachings. Jesus call the Father his God so many times. His disciples calls the Father "the God of Christ" a couple of times. The demons Jesus cast out refer to him as "the Son of God" not "God the son", if you can't spot the difference between the two title, then there is no reason to discuss further.

Eg: John 14:31, Jesus (Your God) said "but I do as THE FATHER HAS COMMANDED ME....". You see "your God" obeys the command of "my God- Jehovah". Do you know the implication of that?

I can see you have hard time following... what did Jehovah says? He did not create any God beside him... was Jesus called our GOD? I will leave you to answer that...

Weah96:


Human parents, you say eh? That's my point.

On the Above, I don't get you? Human parents do what God did because we are made in his image, what is wrong with that.

Your lack of comment on "Faith". I take it you and I are now in agreement eh.

benalvino1:


I can see you have hard time following... what did Jehovah says? He did not create any God beside him... was Jesus called our GOD? I will leave you to answer that...

Please quote that scripure where such is written, let the scripture speak for itself.

1 cor 8:5,6 "There are many things in heaven and Earth that are called Gods". Jesus being called one does not mean anything. What matters is the ALmighty, Most High.

Heirachy:
Jehovah
Jesus
Man
Woman

Who is the "Head" of Christ ? GOD I believe! Can you be the head of yourself?

RikoduoSennin:


On the Above, I don't get you? Human parents do what God did because we are made in his image, what is wrong with that.

Your lack of comment on "Faith". I take it you and I are now in agreement eh.

Human parents do not have the gift of omniscience, so a test of loyalty can be justified on those grounds.

Yahweh is described as omniscient, therefore any subsequent test to determine the loyalty of human beings is REDUNDANT.

It goes to show that the words of the bible are merely the ramblings of drug addicts under the influence of psychoactive plants, not unlike extant native doctors and shamans.

I haven't conceded anything on faith.
Let's take your faith in the existence of Jesus as an example. Do you have any evidence for his existence other than mere faith in the text of the bible?

RikoduoSennin:


Please quote that scripure where such is written, let the scripture speak for itself.

1 cor 8:5,6 "There are many things in heaven and Earth that are called Gods". Jesus being called one does not mean anything. What matters is the ALmighty, Most High.

Heirachy:
Jehovah
Jesus
Man
Woman

Who is the "Head" of Christ ? GOD I believe! Can you be the head of yourself?

So you really don't know where God said he didn't create any God beside him?

Isaiah 44:6-8

6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God.

7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.

8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared [it]? ye [are] even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, [there is] no God; I know not [any].

Isaiah 45:5

5 � I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else, [there is] no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Isaiah 45:21-22

21 Tell ye, and bring [them] near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? [who] hath told it from that time? [have] not I the LORD? and [there is] no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; [there is] none beside me.

22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else.

The verse you presented use a negative word on other gods... the word is "so-called"