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Psalms 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision. 2:5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

It is incredible that only idiots are absolutely sure of salvation. It is incredible that the more brain you have the less your chance is. There can be no danger in honest thought, and if the world ever advances beyond what it is to-day, it must be led by men who express their real opinions.

Infinite punishment is infinite cruelty, endless injustice, immortal meanness. To worship an eternal gaoler hardens, debases, and pollutes even the vilest soul. While there is one sad and breaking heart in the universe, no good being can be perfectly happy.

The God of Hell should be held in loathing, contempt and scorn. A God who threatens eternal pain should be hated, not loved — cursed, not worshiped. A heaven presided over by such a God must be below the lowest hell. I want no part in any heaven in which the saved, the ransomed and redeemed will drown with shouts of joy the cries and sobs of hell — in which happiness will forget misery, where the tears of the lost only increase laughter and double bliss.

thehomer:


The Great Infidels - Robert Green Ingersoll

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Hahaha, you had to conjure up one of your mentors. Hopefully, you don't end up like him.

thehomer:


Is it love to order the killing of even one single tribe?

Ghyft:

'Love' in a boyfriend-girlfriend relationship is a mere fallacy where each of them seek their own selfish gain.... It really is heart breaking...
Like someone said, God is love personified... He is the perfect example of love... He gives freely and happily without asking back anything from us..

UyiIredia:


Strange as it is. It is, SOMETIMES. Many of these tribes would have gladly let the wandering Jews die as we see in the case of Baalam. Some had wicked practices. Love does not preclude killing. You can kill with a clean conscience because of love for abstracts such as freedom as the Americans did.

thehomer:


Does the love of a being that claims to love people preclude ordering the genocide of an entire tribe? Old men, young men, old women, young women, children, cripples and all their animals?

UyiIredia:


It doesn't though you polarize the issue too much. This is expected since you don't even see anything to the cross. Your only interest is in portraying God as a hateful murderer.

thehomer:


So you think that ordering genocide of an entire tribe can be considered as love for that tribe? Please explain the idea of love you're using here. It would mean that if say a dictator ordered the genocide of your tribe, it might be because he really really loves members of your tribe.

God is a hateful murderer
Yes I know
For the Bible tells me so

UyiIredia:


Wasn't God doing it for the sake of Israel ? Besides those killing in the OT weren't a genocide. It wasn't racially motivated; it was based on an economic want or divine fiat.

thehomer:


I didn't know dead people could be mentors to living people. Besides, what is wrong with how he ended up? After all, he ended up better than lots of people in the Bible.

It is incredible that only idiots are absolutely sure of salvation. It is incredible that the more brain you have the less your chance is. There can be no danger in honest thought, and if the world ever advances beyond what it is to-day, it must be led by men who express their real opinions.

Infinite punishment is infinite cruelty, endless injustice, immortal meanness. To worship an eternal gaoler hardens, debases, and pollutes even the vilest soul. While there is one sad and breaking heart in the universe, no good being can be perfectly happy.

The God of Hell should be held in loathing, contempt and scorn. A God who threatens eternal pain should be hated, not loved — cursed, not worshiped. A heaven presided over by such a God must be below the lowest hell. I want no part in any heaven in which the saved, the ransomed and redeemed will drown with shouts of joy the cries and sobs of hell — in which happiness will forget misery, where the tears of the lost only increase laughter and double bliss.

thehomer:


I don't know why your God gave that command. Are you saying that God is just a tribal God who only loves Israel or does he love all humans? It was also due to the fact that those people were of another tribe. Adding other reasons doesn't make it stop being genocide.

Divine fiat? If God commands you to go out and kill 10 random people on the street, will you do it?

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He ended up without giving his life to Christ. Now you know that dead people can be your mentors and they are. The likes of Nietztche, Ingersoll, and the other spiritually dead ones like Russell.

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It is indeed incredible and mischievous of you and Ingersoll to so conclude.

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You are not in a position to say what is cruelty and what is not. Is there a moral law to so say? Who gave or gives it?

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The God of Heaven should not be ignored selectively.

UyiIredia:


He wouldn't and that's why we have the Bible so we know stuff God, being good, won't approve of.

thehomer:


What's wrong with not "giving your life to Christ"? Doesn't Christ have his own life? How can dead people be mentors.

How is it incredible?

I am in a position to say what cruelty is. Are you in a position to say what cruelty is? There is morality and it doesn't need your God because your God is not moral.

Of course not. He should be ignored totally.

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Not giving your life to Christ especially when you could have shows your pride and decision to go to hell literally. You miss out on the power to live the life of a child of God. A life that enjoys victory and power over sin and its influence. You miss out from a possible eternity with God and instead settle for a possible eternity in damnation.

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A mentor gives guidance, training and advice to a less experienced and often younger person. That is what Ingersoll and co are to you. You copy and paste their thinking and ideas.

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How would anybody come to conclusions that only idiots are absolutely sure of salvation, or that the more brain you have the less your chance is? What makes you think that believers are not expressing their real opinion?

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How did you get into such a position? What if another's position differs from yours, what makes your position superior? Are you moral?

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When are you going to follow these words of yours? Does it haunt you yet that you do not know the God of Heaven?

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Not giving your life to Christ especially when you could have shows your pride and decision to go to hell literally. You miss out on the power to live the life of a child of God. A life that enjoys victory and power over sin and its influence. You miss out from a possible eternity with God and instead settle for a possible eternity in damnation.
A mentor gives guidance, training and advice to a less experienced and often younger person. That is what Ingersoll and co are to you. You copy and paste their thinking and ideas.

How would anybody come to conclusions that only idiots are absolutely sure of salvation, or that the more brain you have the less your chance is? What makes you think that believers are not expressing their real opinion?

How did you get into such a position? What if another's position differs from yours, what makes your position superior? Are you moral?

When are you going to follow these words of yours? Does it haunt you yet that you do not know the God of Heaven?

Kay17:


Can I conclude that with what you have written above, that Love is insufficient to warrant a person like the good Samaritian Heaven without having Jesus as one's master and saviour?

thehomer:


Is hell supposed to be a threat? Your God is the one sending people to hell for poorly thought out reasons. Why would I want to spend eternity with a tyrant?

How exactly do dead people give guidance, training and advice?

Well are you absolutely sure of salvation? Your God generally asks people to suspend their thinking and do whatever he says.

I'm in such a position because I can think. Well that would depend on what this person's position is and why they hold it. Sure I'm moral but your God isn't. You're not moral either if you simply believe that whatever your God says is good.

I'm ignoring him and paying attention to people like you because of what you're capable of. After all, I don't bother him with prayers like you do.

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If i told you that "Not being careful while crossing the broadway, or driving and overspeeding kills. Would that be a threat? People go to hell because that is where people who do not go to Heaven go. You for instance have no excuse.

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When you follow their guidance, training and advice which they have penned down or that you hear about or see. Their ideas are your model, your copy and paste.

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1. How would anybody come to conclusions that only idiots are absolutely sure of salvation?
2. How would anybody come to conclusions that the more brain you have the less your chance is?
3. What makes you think that believers are not expressing their real opinion?
These were the questions asked.

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Oh, so a differing opinion from your cannot think? What is your view/position on adultery, and what makes your view superior to a contrary one? Do you think the color blue is better than the color red?

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What makes you moral?

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Popular opinion or common standard of justice?

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Were the societies that killed twins moral?

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Who determines your morality, or what are the basis?

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If you were ignoring Him, you wouldn't be so mad at Him. What am i capable of? Do you forget the sordid history of popular atheists and agnostics? Spending your life hating God and reading up on how to "attack" Him, is not ignoring Him.

thehomer:


Those are not threats. A threat would be "if you don't believe that I'm in the house, I'll capture you and lock you up in a dungeon". No, people go to hell because God created it for the purpose of sending people there.

That is not how mentoring works.

1. Only idiots have no doubt.
2. Your God demands that people suspend their thinking. Thus, the more you think, the less likely you are to suspend it for some imaginary God.
3. I never said believers weren't expressing their real opinions.

No, a different opinion from mine is different. This doesn't mean that I'm unable to tell what cruelty is. What is the relevance of my view/position on adultery? What is the relevance of different colours here?

I'm moral because it is the right approach to living as a human.

Neither. What makes you moral?

Killing twins for being twins is immoral. Do you think that societies that killed other societies based on the command of a powerful person were moral?

One of the reasons lies in my being a social and empathic human being. What is the basis of your morality?

I'm not mad at him. You're capable of suspending your thinking and that can make you commit all sorts of atrocities while thinking that you're serving your God. Which atheists and agnostics are you talking about and why did they do what they did? Like I said, I don't hate your God since I don't believe he is out there. I'm ignoring him and addressing you.

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Yeah, your quote is a threat. The blue below is a warning. You don't go to hell chiefly because you don't believe(Just like you don't die chiefly because you crossed the road carelessly, there was a car/cars), you go to hell because you are a sinner BY NATURE. Sinners go to hell, just like spoilt food go to the dustbin.
Not giving your life to Christ especially when you could have shows your pride and decision to go to hell literally. You miss out on the power to live the life of a child of God. A life that enjoys victory and power over sin and its influence. You miss out from a possible eternity with God and instead settle for a possible eternity in damnation.
Here is why Jesus(God) created hell. The prison is not prepared for you but for criminals. If however YOU become criminal and stay so, you go to prison.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

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Well, that is how you work. You follow their guidance, training and advice which they have penned down or that you hear about or see. Their ideas are your model, your copy and paste.

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1. Do you have doubts on your opinions about God, Heaven and eternity?

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2. There are christian thinkers and intelligent researchers and scientists. For one instance, i have been thinking with you as it were. If you would think deeply, you would know that there is God.

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3. Your role model Ingersoll said so and you reflect it by quoting that "It is incredible that only idiots are absolutely sure of salvation. It is incredible that the more brain you have the less your chance is. There can be no danger in honest thought, and if the world ever advances beyond what it is to-day, it must be led by men who express their real opinions."

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You said "I'm in such a position(to determine what cruelty is) because I can think." That supposes and implies that a different opinion from yours cannot think. For one instance, you think God is cruel, i think God is not cruel. Whose opinion should be followed? Why would your view be superior to mine? The question on your view/position on adultery and color is random. In the sense that i could ask the same on examination malpractice, gambling, rebellion, bribery, staling, rioting, rebellion or corruption. People have different opinions on each of these issues and more. What makes your view/position more moral than theirs?

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Why is it the right approach?

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God chiefly. He is the FOUNDATION of my morality upon which other structures lie. That way, morality is not essentially relative as the right approach to living as a human. your right approach may not be Goodluck Jonathan's right approach or Hitler's.

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What makes killing twins immoral. Some societies thought it was the right approach to living as humans. Some people think abortion on some grounds is the right approach to living as a human, Some people do not think so. That is the point i am driving home. Societies that killed other societies based on the command of a powerful person were not moral. Emphasis on "a powerful person". God is not a MAN, He is higher. On a plain field, if soccer player A commits a foul on Barcelona player Messi, no player on the field would commit a just foul in return or force out soccer player A. It is the Umpire that determines that. Is the Umpire not human, he is. but he acts on the authority of a governing body. Jungle justice is not the same as the one duly served by the law enforcement, even if it is the same sentence.

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i am also a social and empathic human being, anybody can make that claim as it were. Again, God is the basis/foundation of my morality.

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So you are not angry at God or any of His actions? True christians do not commit any atocities. The Word of God makes sure to that. The New Testament/Covenant/Agreement is our agreement, and a true christian is obedient to that agreement. That agreement is void of what may be termed atrocities, it is an agreement of Love and Grace. God is Love. The likes of Stalin and Hitler were like you and the world knows what they went on to do. They had no fear of God. No one with the fear of my God and a respect for the agreement would do what your likes(Stalin and Hitler) did. If you ignored God, you would not spend your time talking about Him.

thehomer:


Oh? Now I'm a sinner by nature. But your God made me a sinner by nature now he is punishing me for following the nature he gave me? This means that he always wanted to torture me. This also means that he is the one doing this and not people choosing hell.

That is still not mentoring so you can simply drop that claim. The fact that I like the ideas that were expressed then isn't new. It simply isn't mentoring.

I have as much doubt about that as I have about the Muslim ideas of God, heaven, eternity. And as much doubt as I have about faeries and other myths whether Aztec, Norse, Greek and traditional African ones.

Sure there are intelligent people. They've simply suspended their thinking when it comes to God. When they suspend their thinking about God, they're thinking less.

And what is wrong with what he said?

The fact that I'm in such a position doesn't say anything about your own position. You don't think your God is cruel. Well we can analyze this claim i.e if you're willing to think about these things. We can begin with a few scenarios.

Do you think it is cruel to order the killing of 6 month old babies?

You're asking me what makes living morally right? Well I'm sorry but some would say you have hit philosophical bedrock with the shovel of a stupid question. Unless you're suggesting that living morally is wrong, I don't see the point of this question. So, are you suggesting that living morally is wrong?

Actually, your approach is relative to what other Gods and humans think is the right approach. Secondly, you're stating that the foundation of your morality is a being that orders the killing of babies and advices people to rape female captives. As far as I can tell, this means that to you, no action is really right or wrong.

Is your God a person or not? You Christians say he is a person. Your God also thought that the right approach was killing babies. Well I'm happy to tell you that he too is wrong.

You may make that claim but if you're claiming that you follow the Christian God, then you're not a social and empathic human being. e.g what do you think about a person who commands you to kill your child and offer her as burnt offering? Is this command right or wrong?

And this means that you're merely playing with words. You're seriously saying that if Christians kill 6 month old infants, that's fine but if someone else does it, it is an atrocity. This is one of the reasons why I say that with your God, there is no morality.

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If i said you were largely ignorant in spiritual matters or theology, you would contest it. of course, you are a sinner by nature, it is not just now. This is what the Bible says/teaches. Humans are sinners by nature and by deed. Your nature makes you a sinner, then your deeds also make you a sinner e.g a murderer, liar, thief etc. For instance, not every sinner is a murderer or armed robber. Those are deeds and deeds have their punishments. People would be judged ACCORDING to their works/deeds. But there is a default nature of sin called the Adamic nature. Every man is BORN that way, this is why it is of prime importance to be born AGAIN.
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

We were all conceived in sin, ALL have sinned, there is none righteous or good, not one. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, once you are born by man, you are man having the default sin nature. Marvel no more, you MUST be born again. Adam was not BORN but created, and he was created good. It's like an HIV patient or some other deficiency, who was not born that way. But he acquired this virus and deficiency, and everything born by him is going to get it. That is a picture or sense in which we are to Adam. Adam was created good but got infected with the sin virus. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

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You like to harp on about irrelevancies. Okay, they are your models. Hopefully, you don't end up like them.

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Oh? But you said that only idiots have no doubts. Again, do you have no doubts that God is a immoral God, or that hell does not exist?

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No, they have not suspended their thinking. They have instead thought deeper and seen something that supersedes thinking, revelation. Talking about suspended thinking, that is what you do all the time. You are thinking less apparently. When you think God is not moral because you read something in Malachi but block your mind to a full perspective in reading Ezra and Job and Daniel and other Words/books of the same God, that is suspended thinking. Arguing on no basis that God did what is recorded in Exodus but did not do what is recorded in Genesis, that is suspended thinking. When you suspend your thinking about God to only vilify Him, you are thinking less.

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You are taking us back to November 14, that is silly. Lemme brief you on the circle.

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You: It is incredible that only idiots are absolutely sure of salvation. It is incredible that the more brain you have the less your chance is. There can be no danger in honest thought, and if the world ever advances beyond what it is to-day, it must be led by men who express their real opinions.
Me: It is indeed incredible and mischievous of you and Ingersoll to so conclude.
You: How is it incredible?
Me: How would anybody come to conclusions that only idiots are absolutely sure of salvation, or that the more brain you have the less your chance is? What makes you think that believers are not expressing their real opinion?
You: Well are you absolutely sure of salvation? Your God generally asks people to suspend their thinking and do whatever he says.
Me: 1. How would anybody come to conclusions that only idiots are absolutely sure of salvation?
2. How would anybody come to conclusions that the more brain you have the less your chance is?
3. What makes you think that believers are not expressing their real opinion?
These were the questions asked.
You: 1. Only idiots have no doubt.
2. Your God demands that people suspend their thinking. Thus, the more you think, the less likely you are to suspend it for some imaginary God.
3. I never said believers weren't expressing their real opinions.
Me: 1. Do you have doubts on your opinions about God, Heaven and eternity?
2. There are christian thinkers and intelligent researchers and scientists. For one instance, i have been thinking with you as it were. If you would think deeply, you would know that there is God.
3. Your role model Ingersoll said so and you reflect it by quoting that "It is incredible that only idiots are absolutely sure of salvation. It is incredible that the more brain you have the less your chance is. There can be no danger in honest thought, and if the world ever advances beyond what it is to-day, it must be led by men who express their real opinions."
You: And what is wrong with what he said?

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So you agree that it is not thinking only that puts you in position to determine what cruelty is? You're thinking and i am thinking and others are thinking. You skipped the question "What makes your view/position more moral than others'on examination malpractice, gambling, rebellion, bribery, staling, rioting, adultery, colors or corruption? Do you think it is cruel for a goat to kill seven other goats? Do you think it is cruel for a human being to kill 6chickens before this year runs out? These are QUESTIONS, not rhetorics. BTW, what is the point about 6months, are you appealing to emotions, i thought you wanted to think? Is it less cruel to order the killing of 6years or 60years or 600years? It is cruel for any man to order the killing of another, God is not man.

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Living morally is right, what makes it right? that is my question, what is the basis? Why is something right and another wrong? What or who determines this? It is a valid question not a silly question.

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Sure, it is relative in the order of less and superior. i know the Superior, God. Unlike the chaos that antitheists like you are propounding. If you want to partake in the FIFA world cup, you have to abide by the FIFA rules, not your rules or relative rules. i choose to serve my God and i abide by His rules, He is the Source and Foundation of my morality. Who and what is yours, Ingersoll or Russell? Secondly, dump your suspended thinking. Do you understand and read that the same God orders every conceivable good behaviour? Have you read the Bible or just what your mentors and models say about the Bible? Tell me one good thing or moral thing that is not already stated, commanded and encouraged in the Bible. Pray tell. Does God order us to kill babies or advice us to rape female victims? Your selective and suspended thinking indeed makes you think less. Get perspective.

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This is ludicrous. God is not a person in the sense of a human being, no Christian says so. God is not a MAN, remember that forever.
Num 23:19a God is not a man, 1Sa 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man,
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

God is the Creator of Heaven and Earth. He at least claims so to be, He is not in the same pedestal of mere men. Like i showed you, the Umpire or referee is not in the same level as the players on a field. he is an Higher authority and can do things that those on the field cannot legally do. What is with you and your fixation on killing babies, do you want to kill some? God is the Owner of every man, He can do what He wants to with His possession. Same way you can do what you want with all the fish in your fish pond. You are not a fish, are you? The police man, the judge can handcuff and imprison and sentence because they are the authority or governing body. You cannot legally and normally do same even to a criminal. If you cannot see this straight and simple perspective, you are thinking less and need help.

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Does God command me to kill my child and offer her as burnt offering? Is God a man? Again, these are questions.

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i have not said any of this rubbish. Christians do not kill people, no one with the fear of my God and a respect for the agreement would do what your likes(Stalin and Hitler) did. Your reason for saying what you say is unreasonable and suspended. God is Love and expects us all, commands us all to live under the new covenant. Turning a miserable blind eye to that does not make it go away. What is a greater alternative than the Word of God below?
1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1Jo 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jo 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
1Jo 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jo 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
1Jo 3:19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

What Would You Substitute for the Bible as a Moral Guide? (1900)
On the whole, the Old Testament cannot be considered a moral guide. Jehovah was not a moral God. He had all the vices, and he lacked all the virtues. He generally carried out his threats, but he never faithfully kept a promise. At the same time, we must remember that the Old Testament is a natural production, that it was written by savages who were slowly crawling toward the light. We must give them credit for the noble things they said, and we must be charitable enough to excuse their faults and even their crimes.

I admit that there are many good things in the New Testament, and if we take from that book the dogmas of eternal pain, of infinite revenge, of the atonement, of human sacrifice, of the necessity of shedding blood; if we throw away the doctrine of non-resistance, of loving enemies, the idea that prosperity is the result of wickedness, that poverty is a preparation for Paradise, if we throw all these away and take the good, sensible passages, applicable to conduct, then we can make a fairly good moral guide, — narrow, but moral.
Of course, many important things would be left out. You would have nothing about human rights, nothing in favor of the family, nothing for education, nothing for investigation, for thought and reason, but still you would have a fairly good moral guide. On the other hand, if you would take the foolish passages, the extreme ones, you could make a creed that would satisfy an insane asylum. If you take the cruel passages, the verses that inculcate eternal hatred, verses that writhe and hiss like serpents, you can make a creed that would shock the heart of a hyena. It may be that no book contains better passages than the New Testament, but certainly no book contains worse. Below the blossom of love you find the thorn of hatred; on the lips that kiss, you find the poison of the cobra. The Bible is not a moral guide. Any man who follows faithfully all its teachings is an enemy of society and will probably end his days in a prison or an asylum.

thehomer:


You can say whatever you want about "spiritual matters or theology". Declaring someone ignorant about imaginary fields of knowledge doesn't make you an expert. All you've said so far is that I'm acting according to how your God created me to act so why are you making so much noise? After all won't part of this "sinful" nature that I reject your God?

I see nothing wrong with how they lived or died.

As much doubt as I have about the things I listed.

As far as I know, if someone commands the killing of children and innocent people, such a person is evil. Telling me that he loves one tribe but hates all others doesn't make him good.

You're the one clearly being silly here. Read what you put in bold and tell me what is wrong with Ingersoll making that particular point. There's a reason why I placed my statement after that particular paragraph with its highlighted text. A little thinking won't hurt.

What we're trying to do here is to analyze whether or not you or your God is cruel using questions. If you would like us to analyze the claim that your God is not cruel, then please begin by answering my question rather than talking about irrelevant stuff. Please try to focus on analyzing whether or not your God is cruel.

What is the point of this question when we agree that living morally is right? As far as I'm concerned, it just is right.

You only claim to know some superior God but then anyone who believes in some God makes the same claim so who is right? I don't recall propounding chaos you're welcome to show me where I did that. I don't want your God's heaven so what does this mean? Does this then mean that I don't have to do what your God wants?

If the same God orders abominable crimes as well as gives good suggestions, I'd say that such a God is an abomination. So, telling me that your God has made some good suggestions too just doesn't cut it. According to your Bible, your God ordered some people to kill babies and adviced some people to rape female victims. Don't look at me, read your Bible. The fact that he hasn't said to you personally doesn't mean he can't say it to someone else.

No I don't want to kill babies but your God does so please talk to him. You say God owns eveyone. I disagree so who is right? I'm sorry but you're the one thinking less if you think that it is right for one person to own another person such that they can do whatever they want to them. Like ordering them to kill babies or rape people. All the people you mentioned when functioning appropriately are bound by laws but according to you, your God isn't bound by any laws so he could in fact just want people to suffer and that could be why he gave such command.

Whatever he is, I'd say he is immoral? If he is moral, why would he give such a command? He has given such a command before hasn't he?

Do you remember that your God once ordered the killing of children? I'd say that is an example of some of that rubbish that he ordered.

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You were largely ignorant in spiritual matters or theology. Even after you were clearly shown otherwise, you still blindly insist that God created you to act a particular way. God DIDN'T create you to act that particular way, you were created for God's glory and praise. Adam was not BORN but created, and he was created good. It's like an HIV patient or some other deficiency, who was not born that way. But he acquired this virus and deficiency, and everything born by him is going to get it. That is a picture or sense in which we are to Adam. Adam was created good but got infected with the sin virus. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. You were born with a sinful nature, you were not created with a sinful nature. Your parents "born" you, not God. Being born again is to be born of God.

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You couldn't.

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Good, suit yourself. You were the one that said only idiots have no doubts. You have no doubts about your views on the existence of God and heaven i guess.

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You don't know too far, that is why. When you suspend your thinking about God to only vilify Him, you are thinking less.

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What did i put in bold? What statement after a particular paragraph do you refer to? Your problem is the little thinking, you need to think deep. make use of that brain more and you would no doubt come to conclusions that there is a God in heaven.
Psa 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament showeth his handiwork.
Psa 19:2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night showeth knowledge.
Psa 19:3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.

3. Your role model Ingersoll said so and you reflect it by quoting that "It is incredible that only idiots are absolutely sure of salvation. It is incredible that the more brain you have the less your chance is. There can be no danger in honest thought, and if the world ever advances beyond what it is to-day, it must be led by men who express their real opinions."

Robert Green Ingersoll

They say the religion of your fathers is good enough. Why should a father object to your inventing a better plow than he had? They say to me, do you know more than all the theologians dead? Being a perfectly modest man I say I think I do. Now we have come to the conclusion that every man has a right to think. Would God give a bird wings and make it a crime to fly? Would he give me brains and make it a crime to think? Any God that would damn one of his children for the expression of his honest thought wouldn't make a decent thief. When I read a book and don't believe it, I ought to say so. I will do so and take the consequences like a man.

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You need to be able to multitask. i like you but this your last post projects you as a lazy thinker, doing little thinking. We are doing your analysis and i already replied it. See it again in bold, you can go back to re-read that i already answered your question. Are you skimming through my posts? It is cruel for any man to order the killing of another, God is not man.

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Now, to analyse from my own perspective, answer these please.
1. What makes your view/position more moral than others'on examination malpractice, gambling, rebellion, bribery, staling, rioting, adultery, colors or corruption?

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2. Do you think it is cruel for a goat to kill seven other goats?

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3. Do you think it is cruel for a human being to kill 6chickens before this year runs out?

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4. What is the point about 6months, are you appealing to emotions, Is it less cruel to order the killing of 6years or 60years or 600years?

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Good. You simply proved my statement that your morality lacked any base, stuff is just right because it is right or because you say so. These were my questions again in case you want to lose focus. "Living morally is right, what makes it right? What is the basis? Why is something right and another wrong? What or who determines this?" Your answer is that IT IS JUST RIGHT. Let's go on.

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i am right, no God is as great as my God. He is incomparable and happens to be among a select few that make such claims. Get back to me when you find a more superior God.
Isa 46:5 To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?
Isa 40:25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.
Psa 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
Exo 15:11 Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?
Jer 32:17 Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:

Robert Ingersoll
Every sect is a certificate that God has not plainly revealed his will to man. To each reader the Bible conveys a different meaning. About the meaning of this book, called a revelation, there have been ages of war, and centuries of sword and flame. If written by an infinite God, he must have known that these results must follow; and thus knowing, he must be responsible for all.

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You propound chaos when you imply that morality should be based on nothingness, individual thought. Your thought and views are different from others and other societies, times and climes. MY morality has its foundations in God(the FIFA analogy), so i play according to His rules, His Kingdom, His agreement, the New Testament/Covenant/Agreement which is the agreement He made with me. AGAIN, Focus on what we were discussing.
God orders no abominable crime, its all a matter of perspective. Now, don't get preposterous. God has not made SOME good suggestions, He made EVERY good suggestion. God is Love.'
Jam 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Tell me one good thing or moral thing that is not already stated, commanded and encouraged in the Bible. Pray tell. you forgot to answer these.
1. Does God order us to kill babies or advice us To Molest female victims?

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Oh God does? You have a problem with your tenses or you are ready to show us where? When you disagree with God's ownership, you lose perspective in judgement/analysis. You suspend your thinking. You would judge better based on the correct perspective, that IF God is OWNER and CREATOR, He would and can do what He pleases to. That is the Biblical narrative and perspective. There is stuff you can do to your possession/belongings that i cannot. BECAUSE it is yours. You are a higher creature than a cockroach or a fish, that is one reason we would not talk of you murdering a cockroach or a fish, even when you did not create them or even own them.
All the people i mentioned simply showed you that the same act can be done by different people and one will be legal and the other illegal. The police or judge handcuff mr A without it being a crime, i handcuff mr A and it is a crime. While it is a crime for me to kill you, it is not a crime for God to kill you.
Your last line is a silly and baseless assumption.

31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

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This is the question. Does God command me to kill my child and offer her as burnt offering?

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YES, i remember. Now you are coming home little by little with ONCE. Next time don't make ignorant statements as "if Christians kill 6 month old infants, that's fine but if someone else does it, it is an atrocity. This is one of the reasons why I say that with your God, there is no morality."
Have you ever done or ordered anything that YOU now think was rubbish or silly?
Can we take you serious now or not? i'm hoping you would be straight enough to answer this simple questions instead of/before side-stepping and diverting issues.

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My question was What is a greater alternative than the Word of God below(1John4v7-9; 3v15-19)? You did not provide any alternative, criticism is not alternative. What Would You Substitute for the Bible as a Moral Guide?

thehomer:

You're just getting yourself more and more confused. You said I was born in sin. Please can you tell me how I existed before I was born? This is why I and many others keep pointing out to you the fact that theology is an imaginary field. You're just making things up as you go along. Go on declare me ignorant. I also declare you ignorant in theology.

Edit: According to your theology, you declare that I'm born with a sinful nature. Why then is God surprised that I don't want anything to do with him? If he isn't surprised, then he expected me to have nothing to do with him before I was born.

I already said I don't see anything wrong in how they lived or died.

Sure. I said it. I already told you the amount of doubt I had in such issues.

So it is thinking less to point out the actual fact of what your God did?

Are you now unable to read? Or don't you know what a statement in bold refers to? Okay I'll point it out to you again. Take note of what you highlighted there in bold.

Actually we've not carried out the analysis because you're not answering the question I asked. Again, this is the question I asked.

Do you think it is cruel to order the killing of 6 month old babies? I've not said anything about God so just answer the actual question and stop being scared.

Well, that depends on what your view/position is on the things you listed. So, what are your views on the things you've listed?

No

That depends on various factors.

No, the point of 6 months is the innocence of the baby involved.

You're merely confused again. What I've said is that living morally is right for its own sake. That is different from wondering whether or not it is right or wrong to order the killing of 6 month old children. Well since you've concluded that I have no basis for my morality, I'm happy to tell you that you have evil as the basis of your morality.

All Gods are equal. Equally imaginary so I'm sorry I won't be able to find you a better God to worship. Though if you really want something to worship, you can worship the sun or stars. I on the other hand don't need anything to worship.

I never said morality should be based on nothingness. I said living morally for its own sake is enough. Your God has ordered people to kill babies and rape female prisoners of war. Aren't those crimes?
Many people have made better suggestions than your God.

You've not been reading your Bible I see. Check out Numbers 31:17 and 18

That's not the question I asked. You need to learn to answer the actual question I ask rather than just inventing yours and ignoring it. Please here's the question I asked again. What do you think about a person who commands you to kill your child and offer her as burnt offering? Is this command right or wrong?

Please answer the actual question I asked.

Finally an honest response. You're saying that God once ordered something that can now be considered as rubbish or silly. That's a great step forward.

The criticism is first to show you that what you've suggested as a moral guide isn't one.
You can start with something along the lines of what is outlined here.

Notice that in my responses, I answered the questions you asked directly. Please try to return that favour in your next response to me. Try answering my actual questions.

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Actually, you are the one getting more confused as you obviously didn't expect this. It proves your ignorance on theology. Theology basically being the study of the christian religion/faith and God's relation to the world. i'm not making things up as we go along, all i have said are in the Bible and have been there before you and Ingersoll were born. You didn't EXIST before you were born, asking me how lamely supposes that i said you existed. You do have a pedigree and geneology. That determines some things about you, like your genotype, nationality etc. It also determined your sinful nature. You were BORN that way, because your father(everyone's father-Adam) became that way. Like i mentioned the blood disease analogy or some other hereditary trait. NOTE AGAIN that Adam wasn't CREATED that way, neither was anyone. It's pitiful that you are ignorant of these plain facts/explanations written in the Bible. Adam the first man was created good, he went rogue/bad, jeopardizing his entire lineage/descendants in the process. Just like some of your forefathers decisions have some effect on you today e.g the wars they fought and didn't, and the political and economic struggles.

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God is not surprised at you or anyone. You're possibly losing focus on this and going another lane entirely. You should ask nicely and make efforts to understand instead of asking slyly. Anyway, you have a freewill, unlike planet Earth or Saturn that God expects and is certain of their position in the next 4 million years. Heck, some scientists may even be able to project that. Why, they don't have a will of their own. They are obedient to what they are "programmed" to do. You have a will and can actually make decisions, like repenting.

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And i said you couldn't.

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You were the one that said only idiots have no doubts.

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On the same basis, did God create the world and own you? Suspended thinking is thinking less, you said so.

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You are one funny fellow. You should have made your post this clear the first time. i didn't know the exact bold you referred as that was a post/statement made days earlier. Other posts had come in between and you have to be specific like you just did. You denied ever saying that "believers weren't expressing their real opinions." Your role model said "if the world ever advances beyond what it is to-day, it must be led by men who express their real opinions.". He said that in the same breathe/paragraph as the inglorious assertion that "only idiots are absolutely sure of salvation. It is incredible that the more brain you have the less your chance is." You probably cannot see what is wrong in these two because your morals hang on nothing. Ingwersoll naively supposes that antitheists are the ones expressing their real opinions and that they are the ones to lead the world as it were. then you go ahead to haplessly and frivolously quote him again and introduce more absurdity.

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1. What is the BETTER plow that has been invented that a father is objecting to?

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2. how is it modest to vaguely assert knowing more than ALL good men dead?

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3. Who made it a crime to think or stopped your right from thinking?

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You are free to say what you will, don't shy away or complain about the consequences. Freedom shouldn't be confused for laxity.

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It is cruel for any man to order the killing of another, God is not man. Start being real.

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Oh, so your view depends on my view? That's new. What makes your view/position more moral than others', that was the question.

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Hmmm, it is not cruel for a goat to kill seven other goats according to you. Any factors, or no matter the factors?

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Okay, that's fair. You seem to be saying yes sometimes and no sometimes, right? Do you think it is cruel for a human being to kill HIS 6chickens before this year runs out?

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Hmmm, the innocence. How about the destination involved? Would it be cruel to kill an infected baby or an ectopic pregnancy considering that it posed immediate danger to others?

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What is the difference, you said it is just right, or it just is right, or it is right for its own sake. No difference in meaning. You have no basis for your morality, it is an evident and logical conclusion. Who is wondering whether or not it is right or wrong to order the killing of 6 month old children? You seem to be the one wondering as you have being on about it in question format.

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i made the right assertion, you cannot find a more superior God than mine. All gods are not equal, they don't even claim to be. You worship yourself and Ingersoll(and his likes) BTW.

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You IMPLY that morality should be based on nothingness when you say that living morally for its own sake is enough. That means NOTHING. Does God order us to kill babies or advice us To Molest female victims? Stop being evasive like Adam, hiding his sorry self from God like he can hide. That's the adamic nature at play. Mention the better suggestions many people have made that are better than what we already have in the Bible.

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i see you have not been working on your tenses. You said God WANTS to kill babies, the verse you quoted doesn't tell us that God WANTS to kill babies. i asked you if you want to kill babies remember?

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THAT is the question i am asking and that you are evading. This is the question. Does God command me to kill my child and offer her as burnt offering?
AGAIN, i have not seen any person(that is human being whom we can subject to the same standard) command me to kill my child and offer her as a burnt offering.

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Again, you were evasive like Adam. Here it is again; Have YOU ever done or ordered anything that YOU now think was rubbish or silly?
Can we take YOU serious now or not? i'm hoping YOU would be straight enough to answer this simple questions instead of/before side-stepping and diverting issues.
Hope you can see your inconsistency? i asked a question and you accept it as an honest RESPONSE because you presume that you can twist it. You didn't consider the other a response when you said to learn to answer the actual question you ask rather than just inventing mine. Now, i didn't say anything about God but asked you a question about yourself. Are you under the delusion of being some imaginary God?
If you let go of that suspension, you'd see that i simply debunked your insinuation that doing a bad thing rules out your good thing. You are ignorantly selling that God did some bad/cruel things so He is not to be taken serious on any good thing. On that same basis/criteria, you should not be taken serious, because you(and every human) have done silly things and rubbish in the past. Get it now.

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Lol, the humanist manifesto. That is your greater alternative than the Word of God below(1John4v7-9; 3v15-19), Your Substitute for the Bible as a Moral Guide? i'll check that later, got to do some other things ATM.

thehomer:

You're the one who has successfully demonstrated his ignorance here. All religions with an idea of a God have a theology so there is Islamic theology, Hindu theology etc. You're making it up as you go along otherwise there won't be such a huge disparity within Christian theology itself. After all, the various Christian factions occur due to theological differences. So sin is genetic? Why did God make sin genetic and then wonder why people don't want him? Why did he make it something transmissible? After all, he hasn't made stealing genetic. Neither has he made murder genetic.

If he isn't surprised, then he expected me to have nothing to do with him. What does freewill (if that is true) have to do with anything? If I already have a sinful nature, then it is natural for me not to repent. Therefore I'm only following the nature that your God caused me to have since he could have made Adam's sin non-genetic.

Is that a problem?

I know what I said.

No God did not create the world and does not own me.

It was clear the first time. What I wrote was immediately after what you highlighted in bold. No Ingersoll doesn't naively suppose that, he simply points out that believers aren't willing to admit their ignorance of the God they claim to believe in. In fact you've done that yourself several times already.

That refers to believers generally resisting any changes.

He said he knew more than all those dead theologians and I have to agree with him. Those theologians claim to know a God that is supposed to be beyond human understanding.

Your God made it a crime when he says just love me or be burned in hell forever as punishment.

I'm not complaining. I'm simply wondering why your God is complaining when he caused me to be this way.

What act can God perform that would make you say he is cruel?

No, whether or not one position is more moral than another depends on what the other position is. When you tell me what your position is on the things you listed, I'll be able to tell you if my position is more moral and why.

Goats aren't capable of reasoning.

That depends. Why is he killing these chickens? How is he killing them? How did he treat those chickens?

What does this destination have to do with anything? Are you saying that sometimes it may be right to kill some innocent children because they may be going somewhere later?
Yes it would be cruel to kill a baby because it has some infection. Do you think it would be cruel to kill a baby because of an infection?
No it isn't cruel to terminate an ectopic pregnancy. Do you think it is cruel to terminate an ectopic pregnancy?
Another question. Why does God allow ectopic pregnancies?

I said living morally is right for its own sake. That is a question I'm asking you and would like you to answer directly rather than just trying to dodge it.

I made the right conclusion that all God's are equal so your God is no more superior than Zeus. I'd rather worship myself or Ingersoll than worship your God since at the very least, I'm alive and Ingersoll was once alive.

Living morally is not NOTHING. According to your Bible, he has already given the order and the advice.
Many people have suggested that we shouldn't keep slaves and that we shouldn't kill people who have been accused of being witches. That's just off the top of my head.

You're the one not working on your tenses and being disingenuous. I said God has already ordered the killing of children. I notice that you've not denied that your God has given those orders.

I'm not evading that question because it is irrelevant. My question has always been whether or not God has ever given such a command. Asking me what he does now doesn't demonstrate anything because he could always give you that command. And I see that once again, you've not answered that direct question.

I'm not the one being questioned here, it is your God that is being assessed. When you asked that question, you were asking it in the context of comparing it to what I pointed out your God had done. That is why I think it is an honest response that you made accidentally.

Yes the humanist manifesto is a much better alternative than your Bible. Sure you check it out and tell me whether or not it supports killing 6 month old babies like your Biblical God does.

-Knowledge of the world is derived by observation, experimentation, and rational analysis. (See empiricism.)
-Humans are an integral part of nature, the result of evolutionary change, an unguided process.
-Ethical values are derived from human need and interest as tested by experience. (See ethical naturalism.)
-Life’s fulfillment emerges from individual participation in the service of humane ideals.
-Humans are social by nature and find meaning in relationships.
-Working to benefit society maximizes individual happiness.
-Respect for differing yet humane views in an open, secular, democratic, environmentally sustainable society

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No, innocent babies went to a better place while their parents
reaped what they sowed. That is just and merciful as it gets.
Your morality is baseless and fickle, very much subject to change
in whim. Indeed, emotion can deceive.
Psalms 7:11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the
wicked every day. 7:12 If he turn not, he will whet his sword; he
hath bent his bow, and made it ready. 7:13 He hath also prepared
for him the instruments of death; he ordaineth his arrows against the persecutors.

davien:
Image123 have you forgotten this comment...



https://www.nairaland.com/1932478/reason-why-atheists-dont-cant/3#26911559

The only question I would ask you,is what you would have done if you were the one commanded by "god"(as speculated in the "bible" ) to smash a baby's head on a rock as the child's mother is screaming and begging you not to......would you still smash the child's head because "god"(allegedly) said so?

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No, i've not forgotten the comment. The ONLY question indeed, let's see how truthful you are. God didn't command anyone to smash any head. Don't be stupid, go back to that thread and read what i wrote on that.