I had an argument with a colleague at the office about God's omnipresence. I started the discussion by asking him if he would agree with me that the omniscient quality of God is derived from God's omnipresence, which he agreed with. Then I told him that if God was omnipresent, it means that God is also present in what we call idols because he will have to be present in the idols too to be omnipresent and omniscient. If God was not present in our shrines, it simply removes the omnipresence of God since he is not found everywhere. My colleague didn't say anything more to my argument, but I've not been satisfied with myself. I feel there is a missing link in my analysis (or is it hypothesis?) because I'm yet to hear anybody saying a similar thing. Or have I committed a blasphemy? Please Nairalanders, can you generally edit my thought? I want this topic to be seen from different dimensions. I conceived this thought during the week but have kept it till today to put it up for analysis. Thank you all in advance.

David says even if he should escape to shoel (hell, hades or any other variant of it), it is God's hand that takes him there.

God is everywhere; it is the nature his nature of His presence or purpose of His being anywhere that we have to consider.

My thought.

@OP What you have stumbled upon is part of a series of philosophical arguments on religion that have been discussed for centuries.

If you really think about them, you will find that the omni-xx qualities that are ascribed to God are almost impossible to rationalize.

Like your scenario rightly describes, God's omnipresence would mean that he is present everywhere, including hell, and in Lucifer's 'body' even. So after judgement day, at least according to the Christian faith, all of the condemned would be in the presence of not only the devil, but God himself. For all eternity.

Also, one less obvious implication of this omnipresence would be that God then cannot chose to NOT be in a place, ergo he is not omnipotent.

Furthermore, aside from the scenario you described in the OP, God's omniscience also implies that there is a single possible path of events. If God already knows the very end, whatever that is, then there cannot be any deviations from this path of events. As soon as there is, then God ceases to be omniscient. One implication of this is that he cannot then chose to change the course of events, effectively refuting any claims to his omnipotence. Karen Owens puts it succinctly in this haiku:

"Can omniscient God, who
Knows the future, find
The omnipotence to
Change his future mind?"

Another implication of this is that human freewill does not exist in this event. If God knows exactly what choices you would make from the very moment you were born, then you could not deviate from this path of choices, ergo you have no freewill. If you could actually make your own choices, changing God's initial 'knowledge' of the future, then God ceases to be omniscient.

Yet another quality attributed to God is omni-benevolence, the idea that God is all-good. To that, I'll leave you with Epicurus:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"

I hope I have been able to help, but this probably just leaves you with more questions than answers LOL. For more research on such topics, you may Google the Omnipotence Paradox, Euthyphro's Dilemma, and the Problem of Evil.

timmy2409:
@OP What you have stumbled upon is part of a series of philosophical arguments on religion that have been discussed for centuries.

If you really think about them, you will find that the omni-xx qualities that are ascribed to God are almost impossible to rationalize.

Like your scenario rightly describes, God's omnipresence would mean that he is present everywhere, including hell, and in Lucifer's 'body' even. So after judgement day, at least according to the Christian faith, all of the condemned would be in the presence of not only the devil, but God himself. For all eternity.

Also, one less obvious implication of this omnipresence would be that God then cannot chose to NOT be in a place, ergo he is not omnipotent.

Furthermore, aside from the scenario you described in the OP, God's omniscience also implies that there is a single possible path of events. If God already knows the very end, whatever that is, then there cannot be any deviations from this path of events. As soon as there is, then God ceases to be omniscient. One implication of this is that he cannot then chose to change the course of events, effectively refuting any claims to his omnipotence. Karen Owens puts it succinctly in this haiku:



Another implication of this is that human freewill does not exist in this event. If God knows exactly what choices you would make from the very moment you were born, then you could not deviate from this path of choices, ergo you have no freewill. If you could actually make your own choices, changing God's initial 'knowledge' of the future, then God ceases to be omniscient.

Yet another quality attributed to God is omni-benevolence, the idea that God is all-good. To that, I'll leave you with Epicurus:



I hope I have been able to help, but this probably just leaves you with more questions than answers LOL. For more research on such topics, you may Google the Omnipotence Paradox, Euthyphro's Dilemma, and the Problem of Evil.

Exactly, my head is already buzzing. Does this topic have any implication on the need for religious tolerance? In other words, is there any relationship between this topic and religious tolerance? I was a little scared that someone would call me stupid for asking such a simple and elementary philosophical question. But I trusted a Socrate would see through the simplicity and discover its complexity.

Provie:
David says even if he should escape to shoel (hell, hades or any other variant of it), it is God's hand that takes him there.

God is everywhere; it is the nature his nature of His presence or purpose of His being anywhere that we have to consider.

My thought.

Thanks for your comment. But why do religionists still harbour a narrow view on this in form of rejecting gods when this clearly advocates unison in our interpretation of God?

Welrez:
I had an argument with a colleague at the office about God's omnipresence. I started the discussion by asking him if he would agree with me that the omniscient quality of God is derived from God's omnipresence, which he agreed with. Then I told him that if God was omnipresent, it means that God is also present in what we call idols because he will have to be present in the idols too to be omnipresent and omniscient. If God was not present in our shrines, it simply removes the omnipresence of God since he is not found everywhere. My colleague didn't say anything more to my argument, but I've not been satisfied with myself. I feel there is a missing link in my analysis (or is it hypothesis?) because I'm yet to hear anybody saying a similar thing. Or have I committed a blasphemy? Please Nairalanders, can you generally edit my thought? I want this topic to be seen from different dimensions. I conceived this thought during the week but have kept it till today to put it up for analysis. Thank you all in advance.

Lets take a walk away from Religion. What is God? A quality in every living thing and non living thing. It's Omniscient is present everywhere,in Brothels,Hotels,Night clubs,Drug houses,our homes,Schools,with Ritualists,Houses of parliaments,Banks ETC everywhere.

God like Love,Peace,Joy are qualities of life experienced by Conscious and non-conscious objects. God being a quality is not personified. If personified,it becomes finite in nature. Everything we do is God,good or bad are all God. Therefore,God is an expression and not a being.

Using a His for God personifies it.

The God dilemma.
Religious folks have created God for themselves, with attributes to supersede all that man can muster, albeit contradicting themselves.
Matter of factly, these attributes are mostly Mutually Exclusive.

ifeness:


Lets take a walk away from Religion. What is God? A quality in every living thing and non living thing. It's Omniscient is present everywhere,in Brothels,Hotels,Night clubs,Drug houses,our homes,Schools,with Ritualists,Houses of parliaments,Banks ETC everywhere.

God like Love,Peace,Joy are qualities of life experienced by Conscious and non-conscious objects. God being a quality is not personified. If personified,it becomes finite in nature. Everything we do is God,good or bad are all God. Therefore,God is an expression and not a being.

Using a His for God personifies it.

I understand your point. If so, then why do we have all these unending arguments about trinity and anthropomorphism from religious texts? Sorry for taking you back to religion. I wish a religious fanatic should attempt this puzzle.

"god" has evolved to be in many places....from caves..to trees...to mountains...to the sky....to distant planets....to nowhere(spaceless/timeless)....to everywhere etc

Welrez:
I understand your point. If so, then why do we have all unending arguments about trinity and anthropomorphism from religious texts?

The Trinity teachings are based on people ideas on what God is all about. The bible was written by humans who managed to print down their opinions. Men make a lot of assumptions when trying to understand the concept and meaning of God. What they failed to understand is that God is only a balance/center point between good and evil. God is neither good nor bad as people think it is. It is a neutral energy,its uses can only be decided by an individual for good or evil.

Lets look into the world of Witchcraft. Some people managed to discover the art of Witchcraft which they sometimes use of good or evil deed. They are all expressing God/Energy. God is in everyone whether we are aware or not.

Talking about the anthropomorphism,humans have always thought they are not good enough and will always give credit of their good deeds to Yahweh/Allah who are presumed to be a Gods,and not them. I personally think all living things are Gods