Understanding or obeying a clear command is not the same as isolating a few sentences and making a sweeping generalization brother.i believe the word of God is written to me as well.I apply it to my life.and I don't push any part to only early christians or Jews.
You say the Corinthian church was a problem church,well that's a strong and big assertion to make.which church today doesn't have problems then.have the women become less assertive or domineering in our days than in those days?are we saying that only the corinth women were told not to teach men,or that they were never told not to teach men but that they should not dominate men?which one

@Bobbyaf
you said something about 1Corinthians12 which I'm not clear on.sorry if my questions are many o.that's the way i learn sometimes. You said 1corinth12 says some members of the Corinth church were led astray by idols especially those wives who were still not converted and prophesied garbled and blasphemous utterings.I didn't see that one in my own bible o.can you expound on that.
Also you said that in chapter 14,it is strongly believed that Paul was addressing those wives who were either untaught or unconverted and who became controversial.who and where are there people who are strongly believing?the writer of the passage is alluding to the confirmation of his injunction by the Old testament 'as ALSO says the law'.why then should some strongly believe what the passage doesn't say.
God giving the gift of prophesy is not necessarily for teaching.a prophesy is a word from God,its not compulsory that it will be taught and its not compulsory to be addressed to the whole congregation.it could be a word for one person or a group.God has set the members every1 of them in the body as it has pleased Him.our goal is to please and glorify Him.

@ Image123

thanks for your reply.Like I said earlier,this is a very inconvenient subject for me to discuss. Firstly,I have to say I have nothing against women and I appreciate the females God has used in my life. Have also listened to women teach,as I have men. Of course on the two sides/genders,we have in our little analyses very good teachers and not too good teachers.but in the service of God's kingdom,I think its more than been a good teacher or having a gift.

In the service of God's kingdom according to Paul in Galatians 3:28 it doesn't matter if you're male or female. Both 1 Cor. 14, and Galatians 3:28 were written by the same apostle. How do you reconcile the variation? If Paul is saying that the sexual and gender barriers are broken down in Galatians then why is he restricting women in Corinthians? That is why you cannot isolate one or two passages that dealt with particular situations and make a general rule of it.

I think it is more important to do things according to the pattern that has being shown to us,according to instruction not intuition.

I agree with you in principle that we aught to follow instructions, but what I cannot agree with you on is your understanding and analysis of the instructions, that were given for a particular situation.

I see 1timothy2v12 and 1corinthians14v34,35 as very clear commands and I believe the original recipients of the epistles understood it as such,commands no excuses.

We are all familiar with the passages Image. We have all read them, but I have placed other references that Paul has written to the Corinthian church that give women the freedom to both teach and prophesy and pray publicly. See 1 Corinthian 11.

when a passage or verse doesn't seem clear enough,then other verses around the verse or in other parts of the scripture are used to explain or clarify the verse,not contradict the verse or downplay the verse.

Which proves my case. If one passage seems contradictory when read in the light of the other then one or more things could be wrong. Its either we are reading the instructions at face value and not taking the time out to see why Paul in the first place had to give them, or we fail to realize that there is unison in truth. Truth cannot contradict truth. One church cannot be given contradictory sets of instructions concerning women. In two separate epistles we have Paul giving instructions for one set of women to be silent, and another to set freedom to both pray and teach publicly. How do you reconcile that?

There are some verses in the bible that you don't need to be even born again or spirit filled to understand.the messages of such verses are clear for all to see.All may not believe the verse or have power/grace to obey such verses but they do understand the verse.

When someone starts that topic we can discuss that one. Its not a question of not obeying the instructions, but [b]fully [/b]understanding what is being said by Paul.

@Bobbyaf
hi,how was your day?sorry have not been able to reply you.I've not being available since morning,I just squeezed time to post Today's Rhema earlier in the day.

In the service of God's kingdom according to Paul in Galatians3:28 it doesn't matter if you are male or female

now there goes a verse that you've PROBABLY read out of context or in isolation.Galatians3 is not exactly talking about 'service in God's kingdom'.please re-read the chapter.I just re-read it to be certain.The surrounding verses and context are discussing justification,righteousness,salvation and such like,not christian service.I believe you know the difference.faith is one thing,service(in our discussion,teaching) is another.Galatians is telling us that salvation is for all/Jesus is for all.You don't need to be under the law to be qualified,you don't need past good works/deeds.you don't need circumcision.you don't need to be a Jew.the faith is universal.no pre-qualification.we're all heirs,we're all 'Abraham's seed'.no jew or gentile,no bond or free,no male or female.We can all come and drink of the water of life.that is salvation.It's really inconvenient for me to say but In service,there is male&female,in marriage,GOD regards a distinction between male and female,in procreation,in child training,there is male and female (e.g it is not expected that the male breastfeed the child since the couple is both in Christ Jesus).in bible family,there's male and female,the husband is the head of the wife.Even in prayer,1Corinthians 11,there is male and there is female.It would be too quick to generalize just one verse28 and use it for every situation.so there's really no contradiction.It's just our growing in knowledge and understanding of God's word and ways brother.

You placed references that the Corinthian church women had freedom to teach prophesy and pray publicly.yes,why not.Women can teach,prophesy and pray publicly but not to men.the bible women were instructed to teach other women and children,you know these passages already.You know what I noticed,most churches have the greater population made up of women and young people,the greater percentage!why is it that humans are never content.the talent is usually too little in our eyes,the Lord,the giver of the talents usually appears too austere and hard.There's little appreciation for all the trees in the garden,we must have the restricted tree.why?why cant we see what we can make of the little% that we have the privilege to teach.why do we feel useless,limited and like robots because a woman shall not teach a man?are all teachers?if all were the hearing,where was the seeing? Lets be submissive like Christ.that's where the blessing and glory lies.

Well Image 123 please find a text that says that women aught to teach women only, and I will agree with your line of argument, ok!

@Bobbyaf
hello.looking all through scripture,one can observe the pattern both in the law as 1Corinthians14 says and also in the new testament.1Corinthians14 and 1Timothy 2 already gives such instruction to women not to teach men but lets also see Titus.It talks about women teaching women only.
Titus 2v1. But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine.v3. The aged WOMEN likewise,that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness,not false accusers,not given to much wine,TEACHERS of good things.v4. That they may TEACH the young women to be sober,to love their husbands,to love their children.v5.v15. THESE things speak and exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
I hope that helps.God be with you

will be back here

JJYOU:

will be back here

will be back when you are done causing trouble on the sexual and sexuality forum abi?

@ Image123

@Bobbyaf
hello.looking all through scripture,one can observe the pattern both in the law as 1Corinthians14 says and also in the new testament.1Corinthians14 and 1Timothy 2 already gives such instruction to women not to teach men but lets also see Titus.It talks about women teaching women only.

I am yet to find the law that Paul makes reference to. Have you ever wondered why Paul didn't write letters to all the churches in Asia Minor? Why just the church in Corinth? Isn't it obvious that there was something wrong with the Corinthian church why Paul had to address not just wives interrupting their husbands prophetic ministries, but the manner in which certain women were deported.

Besides, if we are going to take the words of Paul to the letter as far as I am concerned then no woman at all should as much as utter a single word. Women are to fold their hands and simply listen.

Titus 2v1. But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine.v3. The aged WOMEN likewise,that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness,not false accusers,not given to much wine,TEACHERS of good things.v4. That they may TEACH the young women to be sober,to love their husbands,to love their children.v5.v15. THESE things speak and exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

I see nothing in this text that says women should teach women only. What I see from this text is that converted women, or wives, should guide those unconverted wives towards holy living. Rather than have men instruct those other wives, it becomes more pragmatic for older and more experienced wives to guide those who were not truly converted.

Phillipians 4:2,3  "I beseech Euodias, and beseech Syntyche, that they be of the same mind in the Lord. 3 And I entreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

I wonder how Euodias and Synteche might have ministered with Paul. Were they silent as they laboured with Paul as women? I wonder,

In Romans 16:3: Paul refers to Priscilla as another of his "fellow workers in Christ Jesus" (NIV) Other translations refer to her as a "co-worker". But still other translations attempt to downgrade her status by calling her a "helper". The original Greek word is "synergoi", which literally means "fellow worker" or "colleague."

1  It is worth noting that Paul refers to Priscilla and her husband as "Priscilla and Aquila" in this passage and as "Aquila and Priscilla" in 1 Corinthians 16:19. It would appear that the order is not important to Paul. As in Galatians 3:28, he apparently believed that there is no distinction between male and female among those who have been baptized into Christ.

In Romans 16:7: Paul refers to a male apostle, Andronicus, and a female apostle, Junia, as "outstanding among the apostles"

From these passages it seems that women are indeed allowed to minister. What women are not allowed to do is to have spiritual authority over men. That becomes the crux of the matter.  It has nothing to do with a woman standing behind a podium and delivering the word of God to any congregation that happens to include men, especially today.

Back then women in general were uneducated, and were seen as property of their husbands and fathers.  The peak of frustration often led the women back then to express themselves in church in a highly emotional manner which led to disorder especially when they confronted their husbands prophetic ministries.

We aught to bear in mind that not all husbands were converted either. Paul had to admonish them to lift up holy hands. It could be that the very wives of such often spoke out in opposition against those who abused the gift of prophecy. 1 Corinthians 13, and 14 address that issue.

Because  men and women are one in Christ, that long-held traditional view, where women had very little worth, has been changed according to Paul in his letter to the Galatians.  Converted women were now being educated about spiritual matters, and became more open, and felt they had a say in how things aught to be, albeit sometimes to the shame of the congregation, when they went overboard.

I believe that women can play an invaluable role in ministry, but I also believe that they should not dominate in spiritual matters. This is where most people get confused. They mis-interpret the roles of men and women based on the order of creation.  Before sin Eve stood by her husband's side which reflected equality. She was not made from his feet to be trampled by him, or from his head to be dominated by him.

After sin however, and especially as she was deceived, and blamed for it, her role became subjected to her husband's. That is the genesis of the way women were seen throughout the dispensations. The Hebrew and Jewish tradition maintained it until the time of the Messiah.

When Jesus died Paul said it didn't matter anymore, because we are all one in Christ.  I believe that women have a major role to play in assisting men in the ministry, but it must be done in the order that Paul reminded us of.  They should not strive to take over, or to dominate.

@ Mazaje

will be back when you are done causing trouble on the sexual and sexuality forum abi?

LOL,

mazaje:

will be back when you are done causing trouble on the sexual and sexuality forum abi?

She is one of the trouble makers on that forum.

@Bobbyaf
hi and happy sunday.1Corint14v33b,34.as in all churches of the saints.Let your women keep silence in the churches.for it is not permitted unto them to speak,but they are COMMANDED to be under obedience AS ALSO SAITH THE LAW.
the law that is referenced here is the old testament.The pattern laid out in the old testament from Genesis to Malachi says so.the writers,the priests,the elders,the kings,all that have been used in leading and directing.And its not just a command from Paul.v37 says the things written are the commandments of the Lord.you seem torn between 2ideas.one that the women in corinth were told not to TEACH the men because . . . .and two that all women can teach men but should not have dominion over them.again,I ask which one?
Also,you may correct me though but I don't think Corinth is in asia minor.Letter even in the bible were written to churches in Asia minor.even if corinth is in asia minor,it doesn't mean letters were not written to other churches.the books compiled in the bible are not the only accounts or epistles written by the disciples of Christ at that time.God in his omniscience simply compiled all we needed as believers for all ages,breathed on it and handed it down to us.the bible is complete.other books can only supplement.the bible is for us.1corinthians14 is in the bible and it has a message for us all.We'ld be judged by all we've read.actually 1corinthians is addressed to every believer,every one that calls on Jesus in EVERY PLACE.

Paul had to address not just wives interrupting their husbands' prophetic ministries,but the manner in which certain women were deported

where is this in the bible?all this excuses and interpolations are not in the bible,lets do away with assumptions and face what we have written for our learning.its repeated in Timothy,what's the excuse in that one.if we say we don't understand the reason for the command that's different,but to say the command does not exist,or to contradict it using other scriptures.not well.Let me read Titus to you in another version.titus2v3,4. Likewise teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live,not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine,but to teach what is good.then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children.
Its not talking about unconverted.its talking about older or more matured women to younger women.I'll talk about Euodias later,have to do something.

Hey,I'm back i hope.before Euodias,you said something about been silent in the church.I didn't expect that from YOU but anyway,you need to consider the context in which the word silent was used.silent was used to mean don't teach.that's clear from the context of the surrounding verses.but if we're not too sure,then we can look up other passages of scripture that correlate with the passage.that's what helps in understanding the scriptures.each seemingly repeated command or story are better understood and enlightening.that's the purpose of the 4gospels.In our case,1timothy2 throws clearer light on 1corinth14 and vice versa.look at 1corinth14v28.it says 'but if there be no interpreter,let him KEEP SILENCE in the church and let him SPEAK to himself and to God'.keeping silence here is definitely not talking about been deaf and dumb,no.He keeps silence and yet speaks.that is possible.it means he doesn't give his message for the whole church.It's the same silence that is written of in v34.its not a silence of prayer,or singing or sharing testimony or giving report,or answering questions.its a silence of not teaching.There's a lot to do in the work/labour of love apart from teaching men.even not all men are teachers.a gifted female teacher can teach women her mates,younger women,young people both boys and girls,little children.thats more than 50% of most church populations already.a woman can pray and intercede for others including her superiors,she can usher,she can sing,she can give money,she can evangelise,thats a lot already.the little restriction of don't teach men doesn't make her useless.now Euodias and others you mentioned were colabourers and workers with Paul and even with God.that doesn't mean that they taught men in church.they were involved in God's work together.All faithful christians are.Whether you're G.O or church cleaner or Most reverend or cell leader.we're all coworkers together working to bring people to Christ.Its not a matter of downgrading titles of whether helper or worker.we're all in the work.

please we should not misunderstand what those chapters said about women teachers.

I am sorry Image123 I don't think you have a clue as to what I started out saying from day one, so while I will continue to respond to the thread in general, I really don't see the need to continue a debate with you. I hope you can respect that.

A couple of things I noticed on this thread.

1)Some people said, it was directed at the CORINTHIANS so it was meant for the Corinthian women. So you people can choose what is directed at you and whats not? I thought the bible is inerrant and universal so it's direct at YOU people too.
2)~lady~ said you have to use common sense!!! Now that's just surprising to me because i know "COMMON SENSE" is not a in a christians repertoire!!!!

@ martian

A couple of things I noticed on this thread.

1)Some people said, it was directed at the CORINTHIANS so it was meant for the Corinthian women. So you people can choose what is directed at you and whats not? I thought the bible is inerrant and universal so it's direct at YOU people too.

Not necessarily! Context is important. There were things that were said by Paul that resulted from sets of circumstances that necessitated those statements. There is nothing wrong in trying to get to the bottom of why Paul made those statements. Christ gave us minds to think. Paul himself said once, "prove all things"

2)~lady~ said you have to use common sense!!! Now that's just surprising to me because i know "COMMON SENSE" is not a in a christians repertoire!!!!

That is part of the problem. There are some things that go beyond simply using common sense. Simply saying "use common sense" in analyzing the word of God is putting simplicity before scholarship and proper research.

Mark you don't get me wrong, common sense has its place. If something is plain to see then one doesn't need specialized knowledge to break it down. At that point one can appeal to common sense.

please this is a serious issue we are discussing here and not to quarrel pls. we are here to rub minds together.

Alot of women preachers dont want to hear this,cos i have approached about three of them on this issue,but they dodge the issue.

it was a female that preached in the church i attended 2 days ago on a friends invitation,her preaching was quite good,but if the bible says its wrong for them to preach, then they should stop it now.

they wont stop bicos they want to take authority over the men.

To me, Christianity and its bible and other religious beliefs only serve to instill some level of morality in society. Without the reward and punishment in the after life, we will all resort to predatory living like most other animals despite any human laws. This is the one and only meaningful interpretation you can get out religion.

From these premise, humans over time pick and choose what promotes an orderly society from their religious books and doctrines. What does the bible say about slavery? I guess we can't follow the bible on that one.

hmmmmmmmmmm are u sure?

cos this is a serious issue.

contributors are still welcome.

1 cor 14:34-38,i did not write this but the True God Almighty.

i agree with u totally d poster on this.

i agree with u totally d poster on this.

God does not assign leadership or spiritual roles according to sex or gender. We do. In antiquity physical strength was the sole determinant of worth, and males were stronger. They hunted for food and went to war, while all women did was give birth and suckle children and cook. You know how the wedding ring came to be? In foraging times a male would seize the woman he wanted, and tie her up. As time passed, the more compliant she was, the lesser the bonds until the only thing left to signify ownership and trust was a single piece of rope around a finger. So gender roles emerged, and of course, men ruled and would take umbrage at the weaker or inferior creature leading them.Antediluvian attitudes that persist in some cultures to this day. But you'll find that in ancient societies where women went to war, there was little gender discrimination.

Paul was writing a letter to a church in his day. The fact remains that the Bible is a relatively recent development, and he was not writing to us. He had no idea you would be reading his letters thousands of years later. He deals with the problems each church was facing, from temple harlots to feasting in church to noisy wives and getting drunk on communion wine. His attitude was partly informed by the cultural attitudes towards women prevalent in his day, the Middle East, two thousand years ago. You think they're conservative now? Imagine that society thousands of years ago. I was reading in a concordance Bible that the women in those churches were nosiy and were distrupting church services. Perhaps they were giddy from the freedom of not being in a synagogue. Their frivolity apparently infuriated Paul. Christ was a a cause greater than his life. His solution was to command them silent, citing Jewish law commanding obedience in synagogues. They should ask their husbands when they got home. That verse applies to you only if you're a woman in the Corinthian church two thousand years ago.

We're so silly. Human beings. We're all the material he has to work with, and look at the material! Still he cut through our stupidity and ignorance sometimes and used women. Like Deborah, Israel's leader and spiritual head after Joshua and Ehud.   
And that was in Old Testament times. How much more are men and women equal in Christ.

nothing to debate here - women are the leaders now in the church and government as well - men have failed completely. Why men was afraid to visit the tomb of Jesus Women were not. Hu r r ay!