vedaxcool:

Halleluyah, I have been "converted" once again, please show me where in the entire New testament did anybody ever call Jesus Immanuel, show me if ye are truthful, if you can not show does it prove the heavy delusion you and your Christian brethren live under? indeed the bible is a "painful" book, with good stories, horror stories, violation stories and even incestrous stories laying side by side, no wonder the practice of Inbreeding is alarmingly high in the valleys of Christendom. Indeed i takes guts and courage to survive the evils tales in the bible, flee if you must, flee if your heart is soft, flee if your soul is weak and please flee the filt stained bible.

Emmanuel = God with us! When we tell you that God came down in Human flesh (Jesus) to be with us, you disagree! Jesus was the fulfilment of that Isaiah prophecy. He told his disciples that since they had seen him, they had seen the father (God)! He was Emmanuel in the New Testament, and he is Emmanuel today! He is GOD WITH US! Alleluia! 

Muslims need to be very honest with them selves concerning the author of the quran. History has thought us that the qurqn was written by a single writer and the singular mslim prophet Mohammed. The content of the quran and the bible all took place here on earth, abraham and co live on this same planet so we don need any heavenly being to tell us about human history,Historians wrote abot lots of events that took place over time. The bible was written by men who lived at those times. The argument by Muslims that God almighty told mohammed a large portion of events that had been recorded in the bible cannot be true.This is because since those stories were not new at that time God wouldnt av bothered Himself telling a prophet old tales. The Jews had the Torah for more that 2000 yrs before d quran was written.I believe God has more to reveal to men so he wont repeat events already taken care of by historians.

The quran wrote about events that took place over generations yet it was written by a single writer.Please let us call a spade by its true name .The only source in my own understanding that can contest with the bible account are the accounts of historians who lived around that time with a contradictory position if any.  If there are none as it is as of today , TERAH WAS THE FATHER OF ABHRAHAM.

I apologize for sparking up such a debate after the topic was dead. I'm seeing a lot of hatred here that is not required. If we are to have a debate about religions then surely more respect for each other is in order (that goes both ways, to Muslims talking to Christians and the opposite way).

For the member who questioned my ability to speak Arabic ("fusat" - I'd like to inform you that I am an Arab, and Arabic is my mother tongue. I come from the land of the very man we are talking about here - I come from modern day Iraq I just happened to have stumbled on this forum thread while searching for something.

For sweetnecta, I think you still do not understand my point. Also, I think you do not understand how the study of Islamic religion is conducted. Yes, the Quran has clear guidance in it, but it has a lot of deep meanings, and if it did not, it would not be the miracle that God has given the holy prophet peace be upon him. The only way for us to study the Quran is to learn it from our scholars. Scholarship in Islam is inherited my friend, not in a family line, but in a scholarship (teacher to student) line. The scholars of Islam inherit the knowledge from a holistic context (i.e. the Quran, the Sunnah, the actions of the companions and the imams and awlyaa). I am in no way claiming scholarship over here because I have no teacher to inherit this from, but I am pointing out to you that an authoritative source (a qualified scholar, sheikh al-shaarawi) is where I got my information from. Your understanding of the Quran (and mine) is worthless compared to a scholar. Also my friend, your talk of prophets having non-believers for wives and sons is not relevant here, we are not discussing wives and sons, we are discussing fathers. If you would like to see the video where the scholar explains this, it is available here in Arabic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2On1UpKDeQ&feature=feedrec_grec_index

From this perspective, we can deduce that Azar was not the father of the prophet Ibrahim. Was Terah the name of his father? As Muslims, we don't know and we don't care, because this is an irrelevant detail that makes no difference to our belief, hence why it was not mentioned in the Quran or the biography of the prophet.

For the person who asked about Taqyia, I'm afraid that I don't know enough about the topic to answer you. But I know what you are eluding to, may God forgive you for trying to spark controversy if that was your purpose. I can tell you that concept is referred to as a concept from Shia-Islam, but I can also tell you that your regular day to day (Shia) Muslims do not practice these sort of techniques.

For the member who said the Quran was written by the prophet Mohammed - well that is your own opinion, which is not based on fact. You can argue that ours isn't based on fact either, but ours is based on belief, and I can offer you nothing more than that. But I know that your opinion is not fact in any way, because you have no way of backing it up. Historians TRY to record facts, but they, like scientists, are not always right, and God knows best about how to surface the false assumptions that men might make in this world. The bottom line is, these are our beliefs and you are free to question them, but you should attempt to give them a fair understanding (by accessing a knowledgeable Muslim, not by doing your own subjective reading). God has taught us in the holy Quran that people are free to choose whether to believe or not, and that there is no compulsion in our religion.

To everyone - please stop spreading hatred between each other. Even if we (Muslims and Christians) disagree on certain things, we still have more in common with each other than any other polytheistic religion. Let us try to celebrate our commonality and work on making this a better world to live in, rather than spread hatred through our differences.

Peace.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ as ssalaamualaykum wa rahmatUllah.
[Quote]For sweetnecta, I think you still do not understand my point. Also, I think you do not understand how the study of Islamic religion is conducted. Yes, the Quran has clear guidance in it, but it has a lot of deep meanings, and if it did not, it would not be the miracle that God has given the holy prophet peace be upon him. The only way for us to study the Quran is to learn it from our scholars. Scholarship in Islam is inherited my friend, not in a family line, but in a scholarship (teacher to student) line. The scholars of Islam inherit the knowledge from a holistic context (i.e. the Quran, the Sunnah, the actions of the companions and the imams and awlyaa). I am in no way claiming scholarship over here because I have no teacher to inherit this from, but I am pointing out to you that an authoritative source (a qualified scholar, sheikh al-shaarawi) is where I got my information from. Your understanding of the Quran (and mine) is worthless compared to a scholar. Also my friend, your talk of prophets having non-believers for wives and sons is not relevant here, we are not discussing wives and sons, we are discussing fathers. If you would like to see the video where the scholar explains this, it is available here in Arabic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2On1UpKDeQ&feature=feedrec_grec_index

From this perspective, we can deduce that Azar was not the father of the prophet Ibrahim. Was Terah the name of his father? As Muslims, we don't know and we don't care, because this is an irrelevant detail that makes no difference to our belief, hence why it was not mentioned in the Quran or the biography of the prophet.[/Quote]thanks, my brother in faith.

if a muslim takes the Quranic verses, literally, he will not arrive in the opposite position to Islam. let use 'no compulsion in religion' verse as an example. a person who thinks he can fight or kill a person who converts from Islam will have to look at this verse, and others, eg 'then he becomes a disbeliever, then he returns to being a believer, then . . .' and others like 'Allah Will judge them . . .', 'whoever takes a life, t is as if he has killed the whole of mankind', to come to conclusion that the overwhelming evidence is not on the side of 'kill whoever leaves islam, without any addition reason that is for it'.

while i am not in scholarship of islam, Allah gives humans the ability to think. what takes precedence is the Quran. and the one who understands Quran best is the messenger [as]. next were the sahaba [ra] who heard him. the 4 imams were reported to give disclaimer, thus 'if you come to what rasuul [as] says, and you find it different from mine saying, abandon my saying and take what the messenger [as] says, because ths is my position [except when i made my statement, i did not know what the messenger said].'

there is no way that anyone will go against the Quran, and the evidence for the father of Ibrahim are many verses, with a name Azar mentioned in one of them, while there is no time it is indicated that he was referring to his uncle.

my brother i asked, who is the father of prophet Lut [as], a nephew of prophet Ibrahim [as]? was his father a believer, too, since his father didn't migrate with him and some people are saying that the prophets are never from a progeny of disbeliever[s]. incidentally, Ali bin Abi Talib [ra] was a son of a disbeliever. yet the messenger [as] was reported that he was to him like Harun [as] was to Musa [as]. Harun [as] was a prophet though Ali bin Abi Talib [ra] was not, whereby the messenger that though there will not be a prophet after him, if there could have been, Ali would have been the prophet.

scholars can be wrong, yet get a credit for effort. an uneducated can be correct, but for lack of scholastic thought can get no credit. but thank for the dialogue. we shall continue to strive for excellence.

seyibrown:

Emmanuel = God with us! When we tell you that God came down in Human flesh (Jesus) to be with us, you disagree! Jesus was the fulfilment of that Isaiah prophecy. He told his disciples that since they had seen him, they had seen the father (God)! He was Emmanuel in the New Testament, and he is Emmanuel today! He is GOD WITH US! Alleluia! 

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and[b] shall call his name[/b] Immanuel.

what a pity Jesus was never called Immanuel, no amount of God came down to earth can ever replaced his shall call his name Immanuel, the prophecty clearly states that the son shall b called Immanuel, it does not translate to what you falsely claim, again the name Isaac translates to God heard, unless you will myopically tell us that it indicates that God had not being hearing until Isaac was born no it simply means God accepted their prayers,. no jew in his right senses will ever translate or interprete the verse the way you one eyed approach to life has been interpreting things, nb d OT was given to the Jews not you Christians hence your myopic interpretation here has no basis from a jewish angle. you never seem to amaze me.

NB the word that is translated as virgin is actually translated as young woman, again the christian money making printers have decided to slip a sweet juice for people like seyi who are not objective in their outlook.

labidox:

Muslims need to be very honest with them selves concerning the author of the quran. History has thought us that the qurqn was written by a single writer and the singular mslim prophet Mohammed. The content of the quran and the bible all took place here on earth, abraham and co live on this same planet so we don need any heavenly being to tell us about human history,Historians wrote abot lots of events that took place over time. The bible was written by men who lived at those times. The argument by Muslims that God almighty told mohammed a large portion of events that had been recorded in the bible cannot be true.This is because since those stories were not new at that time[b] God wouldnt av bothered Himself telling a prophet old tales. The Jews had the Torah for more that 2000 yrs before d quran was written.I believe God has more to reveal to men so he wont repeat events already taken care of by historians. [/b]

The quran wrote about events that took place over generations yet it was written by a single writer.Please let us call a spade by its true name .The only source in my own understanding that can contest with the bible account are the accounts of historians who lived around that time with a contradictory position if any.  If there are none as it is as of today , TERAH WAS THE FATHER OF ABHRAHAM.

unlike the bible where its authors told filthy stories without lessons such as the adultery of lut and his daughters, ALLAH does not tell stories for telling sake but to teach lessons, even the most minuscule minded individual will tell you the Qur'an is a preaching, for mankind to distinguish between right and wrong, and to understand the way to eternal life, there are many accounts in the qur'an that simply outclass the bible narrative of history, in that the bible states an illogical portion of a story. I repeat the Qur'an is to give man guidiance to achieve lofty morals not story telling of how father slept with his daughter or how the children of Isreal massacred an entire race to the extent of destroying trees that is the class of the bible written by men, the Qur'an on the other hand simply preaches unto mankind and makes convincing argument against falsehood. may ALLAH guide the disbelievers of truth to the right path and keep the believers on the path to glory. amin

Asalamu alaikom sweetnecta,

I don't think you are understanding my point re. scholarship and Islamic studies - the Quran is easy to understand, but it is also deep and complex in its meanings. If you watched the video, you will understand that the verse that mentions the name Azar is the first verse in the order all those verses came in terms of their timeline, and it is therefore the one that sets the context. In Quranic studies, there are verses which are specific in meaning (mohkamaat) and verses which are repetitive (motashabehaat). The scholars through the ages have analysed the specific verses, and those are where Islamic laws are derived from. My advice to you brother is to utilize the authoritative scholars over your own brain, because they deduce things which we cannot. I will give you an example. In the madhab (school of thought) of Abu Hanifa and Imam Jaafar Alsadiq (Hanafia and shia Jaafaria schools), the consumption of seafood (other than fish) is makrooh and even haram in some cases. Where as in all other schools of thought, this is allowed. So how did the 2 knowledgeable imams derive this meaning when the literal Quranic verse says that everything from the sea is lawful? These Imams took another law that was derived from the Quran and the Sunnah, where we as Muslims are instructed to not eat scavengers (animals that eat waste). Most shellfish/crayfish are scavengers, and the derived rule according to the 2 glorious imams was that the Quranic verse refers to fish and non-scavengers in the sea. Do you see how what you and me would see as a clear meaning in the Quran may have a deeper meaning?

Anyway, needless to say, I think we have exhausted the topic and cannot take our argument any further, so I will accept to agree to disagree May Allah accept from us and you.

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and [size=14pt]thou shalt call his name JESUS[/size]: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and [size=14pt]they shall call his name Emmanuel[/size], which being interpreted is, God with us.


Do you understand now? The bible is difficult to understand. Why?

Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.


Now if the author of the Bible wanted to lie. If He can predict future events as many Bible prophecies show, He could have just used Emmanuel throughout the Bible and not Jesus. After all, Jesus is a fairy tale that He made up, right :

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and [size=14pt]thou shalt call his name EMMANUEL[/size]: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and [size=14pt]they shall call his name Emmanuel[/size], which being interpreted is, God with us.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ show us who ever addressed Jesus immanuel in the bible. even his mother will be sufficient.


further just somebody is predicted to have a name, does not mean that he is the meaning of that name; was God on earth and no more in heaven, when jesus was on earth?

who is confused, since jesus said from his lips the Lord's prayer in which he said God is in heaven?

God is in heaven, God is in me. It is the Lord's doing and it is marvellous in our eyes.

wetu:

God is in heaven, God is in me. It is the Lord's doing and it is marvellous in our eyes.

That is quite a shallow statement, but I will challenge you sir on your statement. How could God be in heaven, or in you? How could God be any where? Isn't time and space (and place) a concept that is only known to us in this world? Surely the almighty creator is beyond such restrictive attributes such as place/space and time? Aren't you contradicting your very belief in what is "marvelous" in your eyes by stating that the very marvelous one is limited by such worldly attributes? Which brings me to the next point of treating Jesus, the man, the human, as God. How could the power that created the universe in a few days be limited within a human being? And why would such a supreme creator be limited to the mere body of a human? Why does the supreme creator need to be in a woman's womb? Doesn't it just sound ridiculous saying it?

Do not get me wrong friend, I'm not trying to attack your belief, but I am just extending a trail of thought to you that you may not have considered.

In terms of names (Immanuel etc) - I really don't think that is anything worth arguing about.

Peace.

"How could the power that created the universe in a few days be limited within a human being?"

Who said He is limited within a human being?

The bible is not a book it is a collection of books or a library of books. Some have 66, some 79 some 80 depending on what bible you read. However thousands of years before The Quran was written or Islam founded history has been recorded about the Father of Abraham . A book believed to be written by Moses said Terah is the father of Abraham ( Genesis 11:27). Also there is a book called the book of Jasher ( this book was refered to in Joshua 10:13 and 2 Samuel 1:18). The book of Jasher is another book that detailed the history of man from the begining though not in the bible it also says Terah begat Abraham

"And it was in the night that Abram was born, that all the servants of Terah, and all the wise men of Nimrod, and his conjurors came and ate and drank in the house of Terah, and they rejoiced with him on that night."- Jasher 8: 1
"And Abram the son of Terah was waxing great in those days in the house of Noah, and no man knew it, and the Lord was with him."- Jasher 9:11

Except if the Quran writes Terah's name in another language. Terah is the father of Abraham. Somebody cannot just wake up in and singlehandedly rewrite the history of mankind. I decided to sight other references apart from the bible to show you that all histories kept by men says Terah is the father of Abraham.

@belabela; « #43 on: Yesterday at 06:51:31 PM »
[Quote]The bible is not a book it is a collection of books or a library of books. Some have 66, some 79 some 80 depending on what bible you read. However thousands of years before The Quran was written or Islam founded history has been recorded about the Father of Abraham . A book believed to be written by Moses said Terah is the father of Abraham ( Genesis 11:27). Also there is a book called the book of Jasher ( this book was refered to in Joshua 10:13 and 2 Samuel 1:18). T[b]he book of Jasher is another book that detailed the history of man from the begining though not in the bible it also says Terah begat Abraham

"And it was in the night that Abram was born, that all the servants of Terah, and all the wise men of Nimrod, and his conjurors came and ate and drank in the house of Terah, and they rejoiced with him on that night."- Jasher 8: 1
"And Abram the son of Terah was waxing great in those days in the house of Noah,[/b] and no man knew it, and the Lord was with him."- Jasher 9:11

Except if the Quran writes Terah's name in another language. Terah is the father of Abraham. Somebody cannot just wake up in and singlehandedly rewrite the history of mankind. I decided to sight other references apart from the bible to show you that all histories kept by men says Terah is the father of Abraham.[/Quote]your whole argument against Quran is lost on the bold, above. apart from the varied number of books in different bibles, to argue against the Quran with 'A book believed to be written by Moses said . . .'. moses wrote his own death and funeral. the death and funeral thingy kills moses book.


the same moses that God sent an errant, and he was on his way and the same God was eager to kill him before he got to the place he was sent. it was reported that it was the wife of moses who exposed her hair that stopped God. can we accept an account of a book that says God can not achieve His objective?

The Quran cannot save anyone, Jesus is the Saviour of the world.

[Quote] 6:74 (Remember) when Abraham said unto his father Azar: Takest thou idols for gods ? Lo! I see thee and thy folk in error manifest! [/quote]

Sallam Alaikum (Peace) to all the contributors. Great and educating inputs on the topic. I stopped at each one and fed my eyes. There are many points along the way that provoked my thoughts but I'm going to swallow my reactions to them and focus instead on the topic.

I have read the Quran, the OT and the NT. I agree that the scriptures have literal as well as spiritual meanings.

We should consider the ethnic customs as background in our analysis of the meaning of 'Azar' and as well 'Terah'.

Let's start by looking at these names: 'Iskander' and 'Nefari Tintin'.

These are household names and I'd like help from someone to render them into their modern spellings.

Let me say Azar is not too far from Terah.

Is it possible that Azar is a title? Men of noble titles are adddressed by their title, even in intimate and informal conversation such as this between Abraham and his Azar.

Here is the many ways in which Prince Williams can address his father

1. Father
2. Duke
3. Prince
4. Windsor

Should there be an argument 2000yrs from now about these varieties?

@Wetu: « #45 on: Yesterday at 05:20:04 PM »
[Quote]The Quran cannot save anyone, Jesus is the Saviour of the world.[/Quote]Quran is the means of absolute safety. God is the Only One Who saves, the reason your bibles record that Jesus lamented "my God, my God, why . . . ."


Jesus can't save anyone.

@Seyibrown: « #47 on: Today at 04:18:05 PM »
[Quote]Quote from: albadry on June 24, 2011, 01:49 PM
That is quite a shallow statement, but I will challenge you sir on your statement. How could God be in heaven, or in you? How could God be any where? Isn't time and space (and place) a concept that is only known to us in this world? Surely the almighty creator is beyond such restrictive attributes such as place/space and time? Aren't you contradicting your very belief in what is "marvelous" in your eyes by stating that the very marvelous one is limited by such worldly attributes? Which brings me to the next point of treating Jesus, the man, the human, as God. How could the power that created the universe in a few days be limited within a human being? And why would such a supreme creator be limited to the mere body of a human? Why does the supreme creator need to be in a woman's womb? Doesn't it just sound ridiculous saying it?

Do not get me wrong friend, I'm not trying to attack your belief, but I am just extending a trail of thought to you that you may not have considered.

In terms of names (Immanuel etc) - I really don't think that is anything worth arguing about.

Peace.[/Quote]you just had to take the extreme position to the above just because you must disagree with, reasonably so or otherwise. in this case it is otherwise by your entry, below;

[Quote]Where, then, is God? Who/what stops him from coming down to his people in a form (Jesus, through the womb of a woman) they would understand? What form is God in? If you met God would you recognise him? Are you not LIMITING what God CAN do when you say he CANNOT come down in human form? Is there ANYTHING TOO HARD FOR GOD TO ACCOMPLISH (this includes coming into the world through 'the womb of a woman)?
[/Quote]is there not something that you see as unfit of your present stature/status? will behave like a little girl, now that you are a mother? do you think it is appropriate for you in normal ordinary circumstances, today to wear diapers?


then how do you think there is nothing unfit for God to do, especially when Jesus was saying God is in heaven? was Jesus in heaven when he said tis to his companions? I dont think Palestine's Jerusalem is part of heaven, yet that was the place that Jesus declared that God is in heaven, when Jesus was on earth.

Whatever you want to believe sweetnecta. Keep on trying to deceive Christians. You will succeed in fulfilling the scriptures:

Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.


You will convince those who are sons of perdition but what is your reward? The Muslims who were not told the truth see Jesus in dreams at least, as for you, you know the truth but refuse it:

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^ i guess the author of revelation will have to stand as another comforter because it seems to me that he fulfilled he will hear from God and will repeat it.

if he is not the another comforter, then you above verses from revelations are completely irrelevant and out of place.

further pay attention to what the verse from the Gospel of John says about Jesus to God; Jesus reporting that those who God allowed for him while on earth, they were with him. after it, when he was not on earth any longer, he had no control over anyone.

Wetu, you and others alive today and I were not alive and part of those people Jesus was referring to, in your above verse. We came after the advent of the another comforter Jesus said will come to guide to all things, including correcting and and all mistakes that was prevailing after Jesus left the earth.

if your revelations author was not the another comforter, and i am confident he is not, then meet the Messenger of Allah, Annabihullah Karim, Sayiddina Muhammad [AS].

if you are a woman, he elevated your stature, status.


if you are a man he made you recognized your position.


either case, he truly tied your heart to your God Who has the absolute right to Lord over you.

@ Sweetnecta
I so much appreciate your zeal to stand up for what you believe but the problem I have with you is that you are sincerely wrong. I am not sure if you have ever being to Mecca or lived in Saudi Arabia but let me tell you my encounter with a very faithful Muslim from Riyadh in one of my few times around

I asked did the Quaran talk about Jesus?

Reply: Yes

I asked Where is Jesus according to the Koran?

Reply: He is in heaven but he didn't die like Christians claim

I asked Is there any chance that Jesus would return to the world according to the Koran?

Reply: Yes he would come back to judge the world and destroy the Antichrist

At that point I said to this faithful Muslim "and Jesus would judge Mohammed too!" I continued and said if you believe there is an Antichrist who is the Christ?

There was no answer.

I leave you with these words "If your holy book says that Jesus would someday judge the world why don't you take time and know more about Jesus."

@belabela - there is nothing in Islam or the Quran that suggests Jesus will "judge" anyone. Allah declared in the holy quran that Jesus did not die on the cross, and that God had taken him and he will return - and his return is one of the signs of the final hour (the day of judgement). His role will be to destroy the antichrist as well as unify the Muslims and Christians. There is no "judgement" that he performs on anyone.

@seyibrown - The form of God is something the human brain cannot comprehend, because we can only think within the boundaries of our limited world. How can God be in a place, when he created all places and the notion of a place? How can you say "Where" about God, when he is the one who created meaning for the word "Where"? There is absolutely nothing that is too hard for God and there are absolutely no limits to his power, but the human body and its limitations are not attributes that can be ascribed to the creator of the universe. Why would God have to come down in human form when the entire world we live in (our bodies, the air we breath, nature etc) is full of signs that point to a superior perfect creator? Also, why wouldn't God come in human form more regularly to make us understand? Why only Jesus? And if Jesus died on the cross "for our sins", then how does that translate onto God? Did God die on the cross? May God forgive me for even typing such a thought. The belief in God is the belief in that which we cannot see or hear - which is why we (as Muslims, Christians and Jews) all believe in God in this day in age even though we have not had any prophets or messengers sent to us. Please, forget the Quran and the Bible for a second and step back to think about what attributes you are ascribing to the one who created everything around you. Look at what an amazing system your body contains, look at the ecosystems around you in nature, why would the creator of all these things need to be placed in a human body to prove existence? Food for thought.

Peace.

By the way @belabela - just because you've met 1 Muslim does not mean you've got a good representation of the religion. I'm sure you are aware of that, but I just wanted to point it out Just like if I meet a Christian who may not have a proper understanding of the religion, I would not judge Christianity based on him.

Peace.

@ albadry,
Thanks for your response. I do not read the Koran so I can only ask a muslim or whoever claims to understand its teachings. Anyways you made an interesting point about the antichrist and I have a question for you. If Jesus would destroy the antichrist who is the Christ?
The bible calls Jesus the Christ i.e Jesus the Messiah or Jesus the saviour. I would like to know if the Koran talks about the Christ. If Jesus is the Christ and you know he would come to destroy the Antichrist then you might want to know more about Jesus. You know antichrist simply translates to against christ or another Christ
The bible says in 1 John 2: 22 "Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son." That is a letter written by the closest man to Jesus while he walked the earth i.e John the beloved.

John also wrote "Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour." - 1 John 2: 18

I would like to know what the Koran says about the Christ. I am sure the Christ is so important that God would see that the AntiChrist is destroyed.

Dear belabela,

Sorry for the delayed response - life is busy. With regards to your question about the Messiah: I can confirm to you that Jesus IS the Messiah. When God makes reference to him in the Quran, he typically calls him Al-Maseeh (The Messiah) Isa (Jesus) ibn Maryam (son of Mary). In Islam, Jesus (peace be upon him) will be the one to reveal who is the anti-christ (as the antichrist will lie and claim to be the Christ), and Jesus will be the one to destroy the anti-christ. It's noteworthy that our stories are very close, even though the prophet Mohammed lived in the Arabian Desert and was illiterate his entire life. This, in my opinion, is further proof that the religions came from the same source (i.e. we are both believers in the one God).

Now, according to the Quran, Jesus did not die on the cross, and God says in the Quran that he had reclaimed Jesus only to bring him back at a later time (i.e. at the end of time, to destroy the anti-christ and bring peace to earth). This is by divine decree of God alone, Jesus is only the messenger and deliverer, he has no divine decree of his own (neither does the prophet of Islam, Mohammed, in case you were wondering). Prophets in Islam are humans - they have been given divine guidance and assistance, but they do not have any decree. They rely on God alone, and believe in his oneness - he has no children or partners, and he was not born into creation as he is the one who creates creation.

I have a question for you: Do Christians believe that Jesus died? If so, how is it that he will return to destroy the anti-christ? I'm not fully understanding this concept of Jesus dying for people's sins, but returning one day to fulfill more duties.

Thanks.

How did the Muslims conclude that Jesus was taken to heaven? The Jews who don't believe in Jesus say that Jesus is not the Christ but Jesus died on the cross and His disciples stole the body.

Now here I see a Muslim saying Jesus is indeed the Christ, although He did not die but Jesus was taken to heaven.

I see two lies, half truths, if you put two and two together, you will know that Jesus is indeed the Christ, He died on the cross and rose again and was taken up into heaven.

The Jews are still waiting for the Christ and the Muslims are expecting Jesus Christ to return and destroy them, Hallelujah!

The marvellous works of God!

When did I say Jesus was in heaven? Are you imagining words on my post?

Muslims are awaiting Jesus to defend the religion of God - Islam, and bring peace to earth.

@belabela; « #52 on: June 27, 2011, 03:14 PM »
[Quote]@ Sweetnecta
I so much appreciate your zeal to stand up for what you believe but the problem I have with you is that you are sincerely wrong. I am not sure if you have ever being to Mecca or lived in Saudi Arabia but let me tell you my encounter with a very faithful Muslim from Riyadh in one of my few times around

I asked did the Quaran talk about Jesus?

Reply: Yes[/Quote]in truth, unlike the way the bibles talk about Jesus.



[Quote]I asked Where is Jesus according to the Koran?

Reply: He is in heaven but he didn't die like Christians claim]/Quote]it is Quran, not Koran. you didn't ask him about death, so i dont know why he was adding that. jesus was lifted to heaven. his present condition from that time is not by business.



[Quote]I asked Is there any chance that Jesus would return to the world according to the Koran?

Reply: Yes he would come back to judge the world and destroy the Antichrist[/Quote]you arab man knows less about his religion the reason he said Jesus will return to judge. Judgment is Allah's Alone. Jesus is a messenger.



[Quote]At that point I said to this faithful Muslim "and Jesus would judge Mohammed too!" I continued and said if you believe there is an Antichrist who is the Christ?

There was no answer.[/Quote]Jesus can't judge me and it is impossible to judge his master in prophetic mission. read surah Al Maida and you will know the condition of jesus. read surah Maryam and the one who will be given the right of intercession, first is Muhammad [AS]. again, your arab man shows what we already know; islam is not arab religion.



[Quote]I leave you with these words "If your holy book says that Jesus would someday judge the world why don't you take time and know more about Jesus."[/Quote]show me where in the Quran that it is stated Jesus will judge the world. show me in your bibles that jesus says he will judge the world and the Judge is not God Who sent him. and i already have Jesus beside me. me and Jesus are together as muslims lining behind Muhammad [as], our leader our imam.[/quote]

@ albadry,
Jesus died and resurrected on the third day. His death was prophesied many years before he was born. He himself said he would die and be raised on the third day. Those to whom he appeared at resurrection testified about his resurrection. Even historians attest to it.

[center]By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken.b
He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.[/center] - Isaiah 53: 8 - 9

Jesus declared: "I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades." - Revelation 1: 18

Why did Jesus die?
These are some reasons:

1. He died to become the final sacrifice of sin. Before Jesus when the Jews sin they make sacrifices for their sins. Sacrifice was a requirement to cover up sin. But confession and repentance through the blood of Christ is all we need today. Our sins are not forgiven because we hurt our bodies or kill some animals but because we approach God on the basis of Christ's death. That is why Jesus is figuratively called the lamb of God that takes away our sins. i.e the only acceptable sacrifice for sin that we need.

2. Jesus died to open salvation to all men. Now all men of all nations can approach God through Christ

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. - John 3: 16 - 18

3. Jesus died and rose again to give believers in him hope. How shall we claim that there would be resurrection if our saviour lay in the grave or no one has ever been resurrected. Jesus died and rose again.


God doesn't contradict himself and he doesn't lie. He would not say Jesus would die and be resurrected and then make him not to die. One question would be why then did Jesus come the first time? Shall we say so that He can fake some sort of death? Certainly not

You asked how is it that He would die and still perform some functions when He returns.

Jesus did not start to exist when He was born by Mary. He has always been from the beginning, before the Sun or the universe was made He has always been. Joseph cannot claim to be his father for God is His father. It was love that brought him to deliver men from sin hence his death and resurrection. John recorded one of Jesus' claims

"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" - John 8:58

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. - John 1: 1,2,14

To think Jesus is a prophet is not to understand his person. He would return in his glory. He has always been with God and we would see him in glory. Angels and demons also know this truth.

When you say Jesus is the Christ then I would say what would you do with this Christ? I understand that Muslims always claim that Jesus is just a prophet and did not die. The fact is Muslims are not the only people who think this way. The Jews too think this way. And such was Paul's commitment that he even went about killing Christians for what he considered blasphemy before He met the Lord Jesus Christ . I can only pray that you would come to understanding because Christ shall be revealed at the end of time and it shall be clear to all humanity that he is Lord.

@ Sweetnecta,

I pray your eyes are opened before the appearing of Jesus Christ. But shall you claim ignorance on his day or say "I never heard the gospel"defintely not for you have heard it at least through NL but you are free to either accept or reject.


"In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge." - 2 Timothy 4:1

"Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or motherf or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life."- Matthew 19: 28 - 29


This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares. - Romans 2: 16

^^^^^^
[Quote]« #61 on: Yesterday at 10:27:45 PM »

@ Sweetnecta,

I pray your eyes are opened before the appearing of Jesus Christ. But shall you claim ignorance on his day or say "I never heard the gospel"defintely not for you have heard it at least through NL but you are free to either accept or reject.[/Quote]i am very satisfied at the rejection. mashaAllah.



[Quote]"In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge." - 2 Timothy 4:1[/Quote]who is the 'one' 2 timothy 4;1 talking about God or Jesus? please read the verse very thoroughly before you respond. who judges the living and the dead; God or Jesus? who is the boss; God or Jesus, because one is the boss of the other? if its Jesus, what is God and if its God, what is Jesus and who really has power and who is faking power?



[Quote]]"Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when[b] the Son of Man[/b] sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or motherf or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life."- Matthew 19: 28 - 29[/Quote]it is son of man from the lips of Jesus, unless that verse is mistaking, Jesus is no son of God.accordingly, there is a glorious throne, for Jesus, so i ask what Throne belongs to God since God is different from Jesus when you read 2 timothy 4;1, above? now there are 12 thrones for his followers. the whole christian population is 12, since they are the ones who follow him? these 12 christians are to judge the 12 tribes of israel. i am not an israel tribe man, so i will not be judge by any of the 12 judges. but above, in 2 timothy 4;1, it states Jesus judges the living and the dead. this verse of matthew 19;28 proves it wrong because the whole community of christianity, numbering a mere 12 entities shall judge the 12 tribes of israel. are the 12 tribes neither living nor dead, being of different category altogether? please explain. finally, it s amusing that this statement of matthew 19;28 was made before it was stated judas iscariot betrayed him. please name the 12 judges because i am certain that judas iscariot must be among them, and if you replace him, you will have explain it from the context of jesus said in matthew 19;28 and no other verse allowed.



[Quote]This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares. - Romans 2: 16[/Quote]roman2;16 disagrees with 2 timothy 4;1 and matthew 19;28; neither one mentions God as the Judge, alone nor through Jesus. both both even differ with each other and with romans 2;16 in plain view we now have 3 scenarios of the day of judgement only on who will judge! this is pure confusion. but i am willing to read your trying to untangle yourself out of the pickle you 'jar' yourself.

@ Sweetnecta,

You sure sound like one who doesn't believe the bible. As for your questions they are not uncommon because the Holy Ghost does not indwell you neither are you ready to accept Him. And what more shall I say unto you since you have chosen to reject Christ.

"And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave, as a testimony against them." - Mark 6:11