OLAADEGBU:

I know you guys are in self denial, burying your heads in the sand like the proverbial ostrich. Since you have doubted, denied, disobeyed and replaced the Word of God with your church traditions and refuse to see the realities that are so glaring around you I don't expect you to see reason in what this man who had been operating in the powers of darkness but who have now been translated into the kingdom of the Son of God, exposing every evil work of darkness, said. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit of God is telling him today because tomorrow may be too late.

So people can still be as unobjective as this?!!

~Lady~:

Wait o ttalks, I didn't respond to this properly.

Do you mean to tell me that if I want to research christianity, I should go to a muslim website? Is that what you're saying?

ttalks:

To research on Christianity,go to the Bible.
To research on Roman Catholicism;one has to go else where and those are the Catholic Documents,articles,rules/regulations,constitutions,whatever,etc.
These Catholic sources as mentioned above are what any sincere Christian goes through to make conclusions on.We don't need any Catholic Priest or leader to explain them for us.
And the point we're stressing is that most of the contents of these Catholic sources do not agree with Scripture.
You might say that there are other books that support ur Catholic practices; but if that truly is the case,the little we have in the bible would also point out agreement one way or the other with ur doctrines.
But as we know,the bible does not in anyway support ur traditions/doctrines.

Exactly and that's why we tell you to go to Catholic websites to get the actual documents. Majority of the documents that bobyaf presented are no where to be found in Catholicism, why? Because they weren't by the Catholic Church. I know for a fact that people have made up documents and passed them off as Catholic documents and posted them on websites and people like you go there and believe that those are Catholic documents when infact they aren't.

And the point we are stressing is that the real Catholic documents and beliefs are rooted in scripture. If you guys will be truthful and logical and approaching the issue you will see so as well. I saw so and so have millions of protestant converts to Catholicism. I converted to Catholicism when I decided to stop going through hateful websites and went straight to the source. I went to a Catholic Church.
And dear you do need someone to explain it for you, sometimes our eyes can be misleading especially when we expect to see something. When you go looking for something you may find it even when it isn't there.

Instead of approaching this issue with us with an already made up mind, how about you actually reason with us and if our reasoning doesn't make sense to you then you can go on your way.

I will stress a point to you, that you do believe in what Catholics believe you just don't know it. If you wish for me to show you then I don't have a problem with that, as far as you promise to respect me as I promise to respect you.

One of the things i discovered from the Catholic's teachings that doesn't conform with the scriptures is having to pray to Mary instead of Jesus as it was written by Jesus himself.

Another is Having to confess your sins to the fathers and then giving you assurances that your sins has been forgiven is not what the scriptures Christians read spoke about,

Maybe you should start from there, I am just reading through and taking points from both parties =,

~Lady~:

First of all, we don't teach "pray to Mary instead of Jesus" even the prayers to Mary are not in the form of praying to Jesus, and when we pray to Mary all we do is ask her to pray for us. SO in essence when you ask someone to pray for you, you are also praying to them, as that is the actual meaning of prayer. So you are also guilty of it too, if it's a crime.

Praying to Jesus is in adoration, and that is reserved for God alone. Mary can never have that.

Also let's look at the prayer we have for Mary "Hail Mary, Full of grace or highly favored, the Lord is with you, blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb Jesus" These are the words of Angel Gabriel and Elizabeth in Luke 1:28 and Luke 1:42
Also Elizabeth called Mary the Mother of Adonai, Adonai is God, so the whole Mother of God title was given to her in the Bible also. But if you want further clarification on that, I am happy to oblige and give you the whole rundown of Mary in the Bible.

As for confession, how would you interpret this verse?

James 5:16
Therefore confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed.

And this one about the forgiveness?

John 20:20-23
20 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. The disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord.
21 Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you"
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.
23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

Thanks.

~Lady~:

You guys only make claims and cannot back it up. You say we are confused, Ok we accept now show us the way. Answer our questions, and when we post something be a good scholar and tell us where and how we went wrong, simply dodging will not change anything.

If I am going to leave catholicism and move to 33000 sects fighting for the right to proper interpretation of the Bible I will need for you to logically explain things to me. Simply calling the Church the LovePeddler of babylon will do you and us no good. Posting Bible passages from no where will do no good, afterall the devil quotes the Bible too. How am I supposed to know you are not the devil trying to mislead me? Look the only way I will know you are not the devil is by testing you o, so please explain things logically thank you.

It's unfortunate that catholics lack spiritual interpretations to alot of things Written in the bible, When Elizabeth called Mary the mother of God, which is Normal for anyone who knew how the pregnancy of Mary came about, but that does not guarantee catholics to use that as a Fact to use as their base for their church tradition.
Elizabeth must have been admiring the fact that Mary was opportuned to be having Jesus (Adonai) so came that statement from her.

Hebrew 8:6, spoke about the mediator and the only person that was authorized to pray for us in the realm of the spirit is Jesus, because he's the only person with the power of ressurution, so he can interceed for we christians here on earth and Heaven because he died and rose again.
Not even any of his disciples can interceed for us (Including Mary) because they all died and haven't risen yet until the trumpet sounds

The above quoted verse from John 20:20, The word Disciples there was his disciples then, And this present world we are now, We as Christians, in respective of our status in Christ, as far as we are True Christ-like (Christians), we are automatically a disciple too, so we have same attributes as the disciples of the old.
John 20:21, Peace be with "you" there referred to his disciples then, this present world, "true Christians are also his disciples, so we are also automatically commanded to go out as he commanded the then discciples as his father sent him.
John 20:22: As a true christian, we are in a position to receive the holy spirit, Act 1 vs 8, Mark 16:15 18. we have been given the power just like in the days of the apostles to preach, heal, and deliver. it was only in the OT that the holy spirit never came on all believers then, But when Jesus died, he promised to send us the holy spirit, So all christians with a ready mind have the same opportunity to receive the holy spirit just like the pastors.
John 20:23, It was simply saying as christians, we all have the same opportunity to forgive sins because God dwells in us through the Holy spirit. having said that, it's now left for God to differentiate between a spirit-filled christian to a non-spirit-filled christian.
some christians also have the gift of discernment. the discerning spirit help in testing the spirit behind every claimed christian.

Bottomline, we as "True"christians have equal rights to take our prayers and sins before God through one person JESUS CHRIST and no one else Because he's the mediator both here on earth and in Heaven.

St Paul:

THE SEAT OF THE POPE IS THE THRONE OF SATAN ON EARTH. MIND YOU SATAN IS A DECEIVER, HE COMES IN DISGUISE.
read Daniel chapter 9 and Revelation 13 for more information.

God Bless You!

As for Mary.

Let's look at Revelations 11:19- 12
11:19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of the covenant could be seen in the temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder, and earthquake, and a violent hailstorm.

12:1 A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
12:2 She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth.
12:5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne.

Mary is the ark of the covenant. She carried the Word of God in her womb for nine months, and we see in Revelations the ark of the covenant has now taken the shape of a woman.

~Lady~:

Please enough with the insults, if you are true christian, you would actually be Christ-like and stop insulting people anyhow.

How's this an insult? with the way most Catholics on here have been interpreting the bible, it's enough to make me think this is actually the way "most" Catholics were taught to understand the bible

So you admit that Mary is the Mother of God, if so why are you all whining and crying that we call her the Mother of God?
Hey lady, stop trying to paint me, Mary was the vessel which God used as his earthly mother to bring Jesus into this world to do his job, God would have as well just sent Jesus into this earth directly but because He wanted him to come in Flesh so that he can be justified through flesh his authenticity,Her Job has the mother stopped after Jesus started his ministry, that was why Jesus always used the word "Woman" to describe Mary in the scriptures

Also do you even know what the tradition of the Church is about Mary?
I think i do, that's why Catholics have her status in all of their cathedral

Do you even know that the Bible (the New Testament) is also a tradition of the Church? so you might want to discard it.
Not only the tradition of a true "church" but also the guidelines to be followed to the end with addition or subtraction.

Since you've admitted that Mary is the Mother of God, how infact do you expect God to treat his own mother?
If she was also born this same way Jesus was born, hers would have been different from other women, The fact that She gave birth to Jesus didn't make her an immortal, rather because she also believed and accepted Jesus, that's why she has a place in heaven come the last day.
Should he treat her like he treats the rest of us? Would you treat your mother the same way you treat any other person, or does she hold a special place in your heart?
Stop treating something unnatural with a natural thinking, Mary was favored by God for her role in the working of Jesus on Earth and nothing more and she got that favor by being the mother of Christ here on earth and she was honored among her peers back then.

Since you admit that Mary is the Mother of God, do you think she is so unimportant to him that he would let her body rot in the ground? If you had the power to keep your mother from rotting wouldn't you keep her from rotting?
You telling me Mary never died? show me with biblical backings, and i will stop debating on this issue

You're right Elizabeth was, infact it parallels to the what David said when the ark came to him, notice that it was almost the exact words used by both Elizabeth and David.
Mary was never the ark lady, well, i don't know how to tell you this, but i guess your interpretation of prophesies in the bible has to do with this.

David: How is it that the ark of the Lord would come to me? please you need to pray well, i mean the real prayer to God with a clear intention before you read the bible again so that the holy spirit can put forth a thorough explanation of prophesies in the bible for you to understand and interpret
Elizabeth: How is it that the Mother of my Lord would come to me?
For God sake, if you knew that your cousin was carrying an unnatural baby, and her knowing well that she was chosen by God to carry out his mission, wouldnt she have spoken out this way?

See the similarity there, what can you deduce from that?

David also leapt for joy when the ark came to him, guess who leapt for joy when Mary came to Elizabeth? God almighty, now i see, it's too late

The Catholic Church does not teach that Jesus isn't our mediator, and she doesn't teach that anyone is equal to Jesus or can take the place of Jesus. About the only one that is authorised to pray for us in the realm of the spirit is Jesus is false, the Bible disagrees with you on that. Jesus himself tells us that the angels of the little ones are praying for them and interceding on their behalf.
Matthew 18:10 See that you despise not one of these little ones: for I say to you, that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.
So even if that is "false as you claimed" where then did Jesus say Mary or the bible said Mary can intercede for us here on Earth, the angels of the lord are always there to take our prayers up to God, but Jesus is the mediator and intercedes on our behave. taking the prayers up to God and interceding is a two different thing

Nothing in the Bible states that we are in the Church are cut off from one another after death. How can we be one body if we are cut off from one another? When people die in Christ do they stop ceasing to be in the body of Christ?
There is no connection between the dead and the living lady, i forgot the bible chapter and verse that clearly stated that one, It's appointed unto a man to die once, and after that comes judgment. and there is no relationship with the dead and the bible, those that died in Christ remain dead until the resurrection hour.

We also know that it is possible for people to already be in heaven, as we see that in the transfiguration Moses and Elijah appear to Jesus and converse with him. According to the Bible it isn't unusual. Also in Revelations the twelve apostles and the twelve tribes of Israel are seen in the temple of God.
And why is it that They only conversed with Jesus and not with the rest of the disciples? Jesus also appeared to his disciples 3 times after resurrection and never did again.


Revelations 4:4 Surrounding the throne I saw twenty-four other thrones on which twenty-four elders sat, dressed in white garments and with gold crowns on their heads.
Not only were they there they also offered the prayers of the holy ones (US)
that was in the vision, is this how you interpret the bible why not pray to the angels instead of a status called Mary who is as human as another person on earth except for the fact that God used and honored her among women in her time just as he used many other people in the bible and blessed them?b]

Revelations 5:8 When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.
[b]same as above

So much for the apostles not haven been in heaven. Their bodies haven't risen but their souls are with the Lord. We all have our personal judgment that takes place at our death, but at the end time, all will be revealed for everyone to see and our souls will be reunited with our bodies. Our souls don't just wonder around.
their souls are in paradise and not heaven yet

As for Mary.

Let's look at Revelations 11:19- 12
11:19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of the covenant could be seen in the temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder, and earthquake, and a violent hailstorm.
Your interpretation says the ark is Mary?

12:1 A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
12:2 She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth.
12:5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne.

Mary is the ark of the covenant. She carried the Word of God in her womb for nine months, and we see in Revelations the ark of the covenant has now taken the shape of a woman.
According to your interpretation which is totally wrong, that prophesy wasn't referring to one person, someone already interpreted this verses in this thread before, please go take a clue from it
It also mentioned "whatever sins you retain are retained them" are we allowed not to forgive sins too?
We as individuals, we are allowed to forgive sins, so that makes it a job every believer should do and not one particular person in a church or a community. God is the supreme being who have the final right to accept the confession and dish out forgiveness not a pope, father, pastor or a priest.

Well thank God you believe the same thing we do. I was beginning to worry about you ya know.
We don't believe in the same thing, because what you practice is not what i practice. My bible states that I should not worship, bow down or praise any idols or images in any form or shape and that i believe in. and also should not erect any idol or image of any kind.

chukwudi44:

@ttalks,
please who gave birth to JESUS ,Isreal or Mary.Are trying to trivialiase the role of Mary in the incarnation?

ttalks:

As regards Revelation 12, a number of entities have been ascribed to the woman clothed with the sun, the moon at her feet and a garland of twelve stars on her head. The entities include:
- Israel
- Mary
- The Church

Now, in situations like this, the best way to determine the right entity to be associated with the woman is  by applying an elimination process.


Going further:

Revelation 12:6
(6)  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Now the above verse completely knocks off Mary from being the woman. There is nothing about Mary's life that refers to her fleeing into the wilderness to a place prepared for her of God. Rather, this can fully be related to Israel.

When it speaks of the woman fleeing into the wilderness for 1,260 days, it is referring to the future time called the tribulation period. Twelve hundred sixty days is 42 months of 30 days each. 42 months is 3 1/2 years. Halfway through the tribulation period, the beast will set an image of himself up in the temple that will be built in Jerusalem. This is the abomination that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14. When the beast does this, he breaks the peace pact he made with Israel, and the nation has to flee for safety (also see Matthew 24; Daniel 9:27). This is the picture of the woman fleeing into the wilderness

Revelation 12:12-17 speaks of how the devil will make war against Israel, trying to destroy her (Satan knows his time is short, relatively speaking—see Revelation 20:1-3, 10). It also speaks of how God will protect Israel while in the wilderness. Note Revelation 12:14 where it says that Israel will be protected from the devil for "a time, times, and half a time (a time = 1 year -- 3 1/2 years).

So, it is pretty clear from all these that the woman in Revelations 12 is none other than Israel and NOT MARY!!!

OLAADEGBU:

"The mother of God" that the RCC worship is not the same Mary of the Bible. She is the "queen of heaven" that has been carefully incorporated to deceive multitudes into worshipping the counterfeit goddess. Jeremiah 7:17-18;44:16-17,20-29

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0040/0040_01.asp

Mary: Queen Over All Things[/b]

Catholicism contends that at Mary's death, the Lord took her up into heaven and gave her the title, "Queen over all things:"

[list]
[li]"Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things." Pg. 252, #966 [/li]
[/list]

Once again, Catholic doctrine and the Word of God have a head-on collision. Scripture not only never teaches such a doctrine, it condemns it. In Jeremiah 44: 9, we read about the worship of a false goddess known as the "Queen of heaven," a practice which made God furious:

[list]
[li]"The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger." Jeremiah 7:18  [/li]
[/list]

Why did these people worship this false goddess called the Queen of heaven? It was a tradition of men that had been handed down to them:

[list]
[li]"But we will,  burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, " Jeremiah 44:17  [/li]
[/list]

Has Catholicism handed down the same pagan ritual that infuriates God?

Pagan religions

Although it is beyond the reach of this book, curious Catholics would be fascinated by a study of the many false religions which have worshipped a "Queen of heaven." Given that fact, Catholicism's insistence that God gave Mary a name so often used by false goddesses is remarkable.

Who should be exalted?

[list]
[li]Though Catholicism insists upon exalting Mary, the Bible exalts only God Almighty:
above the heavens; let thy glory be above all the earth." Psalm 57:5
", thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all." 1 Chronicles 29:11

", let the God of my salvation be exalted." Psalm 18:46

"Be thou exalted, LORD, in thine own strength, " Psalm 21:13

"Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth." Psalm 46:10

", the shields of the earth belong unto God: he is greatly exalted." Psalm 47:9

"The LORD is exalted; for he dwelleth on high, " Isaiah 33:5
"Be thou exalted, O God,[/li]
[/list]


God receives glory through Jesus Christ

The Bible declares that God receives glory through the Lord Jesus Christ. In the New Testament, the name " Jesus" appears 943 times. The name "Christ" appears 533 times, while the words "Lord Jesus" appear 115 times.

The first four books of the New Testament chronicle the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus, while the rest of the New Testament revolves around Him.

Mary, on the other hand, appears in God's Word only a handful of times, and is never referred to as a queen of anything:

[list]
[li]"Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him (Jesus), and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; Philippians 2:9-10
", Worthy is the Lamb that was slain (Jesus) to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing." Revelation 5:12 [/li]
[/list]

Who should receive all glory? God,  through Jesus Christ:

[list]
[li]", that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." 1 Peter 4:11
"Him (Jesus) hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins." Acts 5:31 [/li]
[/list]


I'm sure you see the pattern again. While the Bible strives to exalt Jesus Christ, Catholicism is determined to demote Jesus and exalt Mary.

Why is Jesus Christ, the One who sacrificed His life and suffered the cruel torture of the cross, set aside and replaced by a mere mortal woman?

Conclusion

Catholicism insists that the Lord elevated Mary to the rank of "Queen of all things." Yet, the Bible proclaims that worshipping a "Queen of heaven" provokes God to anger.

Where will you place your trust, in the traditions of men, or the Word of God?

[list]
[li]"Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him (Jesus), and given him a name which is above every name, " Philippians 2:9-11 [/li]
[/list]

http://www.chick.com/reading/books/160/160_21.asp