Predestination, in theology, is the doctrine[1] that all events have been willed by God


The words translated “predestined” in the Scriptures referenced above are from the Greek word proorizo, which carries the meaning of “determine beforehand,” “ordain,” “to decide upon ahead of time.” So, predestination is God determining certain things to occur ahead of time.
The verses below support predestination.
Ephesians 1:4-5 - According as he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Romans 8:28-30 - And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.

Romans 8:29 - For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

John 6:44 - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 15:16 - Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Like d bible said , he only is d author and finisher of our faith. We hav d choice to live how we choose too . But all dat happens in life is in d master plan

Cutehector:
Like d bible said , he only is d author and finisher of our faith. We hav d choice to live how we choose too . But all dat happens in life is in d master plan

So which is it... did he give free will or have predestined everything...? just answer one

God gave man both. Predestination is God's predetermined will for a man. But God also gave man the freewill to choose God's will for him or go his own way. Its clear from from scriptures that predestination is not cast in iron, in other words, it is not super-imposed.

Even in predestination man still reserves the freewill and power of choice to submit to it or to go his own way.

And there are examples of those who submitted and those who didn't.

Jesus is called the lamb "slain from the foundation of the world" in Rev 13v8.

Meaning His sacrificial death was predestined and pre-determined.

Also in 1Peter; it shows that his death and the shedding of His blood was FOREORDAINED.

1Peter 1v19-20 -But with the precious blood of Christ, as of the lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was FOREORDAINED before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.

But even though Christ's suffering and death was foreordained before the foundation of the world; He still said in Matthew 26v53 -

Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and He shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Meaning if Jesus had changed His mind about dying and requested to be rescued, the Father would have granted His request, even though it would have been contrary to what was foreordained.

Jesus still reserved the freewill and power to choose otherwise. He voluntarily submitted to predestination; it wasn't super-imposed on Him.

The bible also said indirectly in Rev 17v8 that names are written in the book of life since the foundation of the earth (which implies to preordained unto eternal life).

But then, Jesus also warned in

Rev 3v5 -He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life...

Jesus doesn't make threats, He just tells the truth as it is.

If your name being in the book of like, means you will make it no matter what, Christ will not warn us against doing something that will blot out our names.

The scripture shows that names written in the book of life can still be blotted. A man foreordained unto eternal life can by his own choices blot his own name out of the book of life. Predestination is not super-imposed or cast in iron.

Even Judas was foredained to sit on thrones and judge with the twelve in the age to come, according to Jesus.

Matthew 19v28 -Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me; In the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also (Judas inclusive) shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Judas was still among the twelve when Jesus made this statement. But we all know what happened to Judas, he, by his own choice, went his own way -the way of perdition.

So much so that Jesus said concerning him, that it would have been "good for that man if he had not been born. (Matthew 26v24)

These scriptures and a few others like it, show me that predestination is not cast in iron or super-imposed. Meaning it is possible for a man by his choices to refuse to accomplish or attain to something he was predestined for; something he was foreordained unto since the foundation of the earth to do, receive or attain.

So God gave man both predestination (God's predeterminate will for a man) and freewill (man's power of choice to submit to God's will or go his own way). We have both.

ayoku777:
God gave man both. Predestination is God's predetermined will for a man. But God also gave man the freewill to choose God's will for him or go his own way. Its clear from from scriptures that predestination is not cast in iron, in other words, it is not super-imposed.

Even in predestination man still reserves the freewill and power of choice to submit to it or to go his own way.

And there are examples of those who submitted and those who didn't.

Jesus is called the lamb "slain from the foundation of the world" in Rev 13v8.

Meaning His sacrificial death was predestined and pre-determined.

Also in 1Peter; it shows that his death and the shedding of His blood was FOREORDAINED.

1Peter 1v19-20 -But with the precious blood of Christ, as of the lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was FOREORDAINED before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.

But even though Christ's suffering and death was foreordained before the foundation of the world; He still said in Matthew 26v53 -

Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and He shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Meaning if Jesus had changed His mind about dying and requested to be rescued, the Father would have granted His request, even though it would have been contrary to what was foreordained.

Jesus still reserved the freewill and power to choose otherwise. He voluntarily submitted to predestination; it wasn't super-imposed on Him.

The bible also said indirectly in Rev 17v8 that names are written in the book of life since the foundation of the earth (which implies to preordained unto eternal life).

But then, Jesus also warned in

Rev 3v5 -He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life...

Jesus doesn't make threats, He just tells the truth as it is.

If your name being in the book of like, means you will make it no matter what, Christ will not warn us against doing something that will blot out our names.

The scripture shows that names written in the book of life can still be blotted. A man foreordained unto eternal life can by his own choices blot his own name out of the book of life. Predestination is not super-imposed or cast in iron.

Even Judas was foredained to sit on thrones and judge with the twelve in the age to come, according to Jesus.

Matthew 19v28 -Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me; In the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of His glory, ye also (Judas inclusive) shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Judas was still among the twelve when Jesus made this statement. But we all know what happened to Judas, he, by his own choice, went his own way -the way of perdition.

So much so that Jesus said concerning him, that it would have been "good for that man if he had not been born. (Matthew 26v24)

These scriptures and a few others like it, show me that predestination is not cast in iron or super-imposed. Meaning it is possible for a man by his choices to refuse to accomplish or attain to something he was predestined for; something he was foreordained unto since the foundation of the earth to do, receive or attain.

So God gave man both predestination (God's predeterminate will for a man) and freewill (man's power of choice to submit to God's will or go his own way). We have both.

You see why we always have an issue with you theists...
God gave man freewill but yet he predestined everything.. do you guys even hear yourselves..its like eating your cake and have it

[size=20] If man have freewill how can everything be God's plan, if everything is God's plan how then can man have freewill[/size]

johnydon22:



You see why we always have an issue with you theists...
God gave man freewill but yet he predestined everything.. do you guys even hear yourselves..its like eating your cake and have it

[size=20] If man have freewill how can everything be God's plan, if everything is God's plan how then can man have freewill[/size]

Predestination is what God wants you to be and do, your calling, the reason He created you. Freewill is what you choose to do, freewill is your power of choice to submit to God's will or do your own thing.

Not everything happening in the world or in our lives is God's will or His plan. Most or a lot are simply the consequences of man's personal choices. God's will for man is not always done, otherwise everyone will be born again.

Predestination is not cast in iron. God's predeterminate will for a man is not imposed, you have the choice to not submit to it. So yes, God gave man predestination, and the freewill to submit to it or not.

As I said if God's will is always done, everyone will be born again; and every born again christian will be Christ-like. Because that is God's predestination for everyone He foreknew according to Romans 8.

ayoku777:


Predestination is what God wants you to be and do, your calling, the reason He created you. Freewill is what you choose to do, freewill is your power of choice to submit to God's will or do your own thing.

Not everything happening in the world or in our lives is God's will or His plan. Most or a lot are simply the consequences of man's personal choices. God's will for man is not always done, otherwise everyone will be born again.

Predestination is not cast in iron. God's predeterminate will for a man is not imposed, you have the choice to not submit to it. So yes, God gave man predestination, and the freewill to submit to it or not.

As I said if God's will is always done, everyone will be born again; and every born again christian will be Christ-like. Because that is God's predestination for everyone He foreknew according to Romans 8.

Now you are redefining predestination just to suit your idea. Do you even know the meaning of predestination?
What do you mean by ... Predestination is what God want you to do and be... How does that sound like predestination.
Predestination is what you must do and be. Predestination means you must be that thing.

If God's will for man is not always done then call that another name but not predestination.

You Christians are the only people who like defining a term like "married bachelor" and you end up going round and round trying to make sense of the impossible.

frank317:


Now you are redefining predestination just to suit your idea. Do you even know the meaning of predestination?
What do you mean by ... Predestination is what God want you to do and be... How does that sound like predestination.
Predestination is what you must do and be. Predestination means you must be that thing.

If God's will for man is not always done then call that another name but not predestination.

You Christians are the only people who like defining a term like "married bachelor" and you end up going round and round trying to make sense of the impossible.

Predestination is what the bible says it is, not what humans or dictionary says it is. According to the bible, God's will for man is not always done. Do you have a problem with that?

Peter told the brethren to be diligent to make their calling and election sure (2Peter 1v10). If our callings are automatically fulfilled just because it is what we were predestined for, would there be a need to tell us to make our calling sure?

Use the bible to explain bible terms. And from bible terms, God's predestined will for individuals was not always done. Man still always had the freewill to not submit to God's will.

If God's will is always done, then all men would be saved. You can refuse to fulfil your calling. Man has the freewill to not submit to God's predestined will for him.

Use scripture to explain scripture, not personal opinion. I'm not making this definition up to suit my ideas. This is the definition of the scriptural application of predestination.

Predestination in the bible is God's predeterminate will; what He created someone to be or to do. It doesn't compulsorily mean that is what the person will be or do.

According to scriptural application, predestination is not cast in iron, it does not over-ride freewill. A man can still choose to NOT submit to God's predestined will for him.

Infact for God's will to be done in someone's life, the person must submit his will to God's will and give diligence to making his calling and election sure, just as Jesus submitted, "Not my will but yours be done." It is not automatic.

People who say predestination is what will happen no matter what or what will take place independently of your freewill, are not defining predestination by scriptural application.

By scriptural application, predestination is what God created you to be or do; His predetermined will for you. Freewill is your power of choice to submit to God's will or go your own way. Both are not mutually exclusive. Every man has both predestination and freewill. God gave us both.

Predestination is our calling from God. While freewill is our right of choice to make our calling sure. Something we can fail at or refuse to fulfill. That's why names can be blotted out of the book of life after they've been written.

ayoku777:


Predestination is what the bible says it is, not what humans or dictionary says it is. According to the bible, God's will for man is not always done. Do you have a problem with that?

Peter told the brethren to be diligent to make their calling and election sure (2Peter 1v10). If our callings are automatically fulfilled just because it is what we were predestined for, would there be a need to tell us to make our calling sure?

Use the bible to explain bible terms. And from bible terms, God's predestined will for individuals was not always done. Man still always had the freewill to not submit to God's will.

If God's will is always done, then all men would be saved. You can refuse to fulfil your calling. Man has the freewill to not submit to God's predestined will for him.

Use scripture to explain scripture, not personal opinion. I'm not making this definition up to suit my ideas. This is the definition of the scriptural application of predestination.

Predestination in the bible is God's predeterminate will; what He created someone to be or to do. It doesn't compulsorily mean that is what the person will be or do.

According to scriptural application, predestination is not cast in iron, it does not over-ride freewill. A man can still choose to NOT submit to God's predestined will for him.

Infact for God's will to be done in someone's life, the person must submit his will to God's will and give diligence to making his calling and election sure, just as Jesus submitted, "Not my will but yours be done." It is not automatic.

People who say predestination is what will happen no matter what or what will take place independently of your freewill, are not defining predestination by scriptural application.

By scriptural application, predestination is what God created you to be or do; His predetermined will for you. Freewill is your power of choice to submit to God's will or go your own way. Both are not mutually exclusive. Every man has both predestination and freewill. God gave us both.

Predestination is our calling from God. While freewill is our right of choice to make our calling sure. Something we can fail at or refuse to fulfill. That's why names can be blotted out of the book of life after they've been written.

Dude since you say predestination is what the bible says and not dictionary then their is no more need adding more cus obviously we are not talking about the same thing..

Op it is left for you to say the predestination you mean..

But i av never heard the bible is now used to know the meaning of a word tho ?

johnydon22:


Dude since you say predestination is what the bible says and not dictionary then their is no more need adding more cus obviously we are not talking about the same thing..

Op it is left for you to say the predestination you mean..

But i av never heard the bible is now used to know the meaning of a word tho ?

Its clear the OP is talking about predestination from the perspective of God and the scripture. That's why he used bible verses to explain his point and ask his question.

And yes, the biblical meaning of a thing can be different from the dictionary meaning.

Take for instance, everlasting life. Everlasting life in english dictionary would mean living forever. But those who will go to hell will also live forever yet according to the bible they don't have everlasting life.

John 3v16 -For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Meaning everlasting life is not just living forever, it is the life God gives to those who put their faith in Christ. It is Zoe not Bios.

So you see, a lot of the times scriptural definition and dictionary definition of a word can be different. That's why its good to use scriptural application to interprete and define scriptural term. Otherwise you will just be using personal and wordly opinion to interprete scripture.

ayoku777:

Predestination is what God wants you to be and do, your calling, the reason He created you. Freewill is what you choose to do, freewill is your power of choice to submit to God's will or do your own thing.
Not everything happening in the world or in our lives is God's will or His plan. Most or a lot are simply the consequences of man's personal choices. God's will for man is not always done, otherwise everyone will be born again.
Predestination is not cast in iron. God's predeterminate will for a man is not imposed, you have the choice to not submit to it. So yes, God gave man predestination, and the freewill to submit to it or not.
As I said if God's will is always done, everyone will be born again; and every born again christian will be Christ-like. Because that is God's predestination for everyone He foreknew according to Romans 8.

Man you have such a expert way of rationalizing the irrational. If you're not already making Oledepo-scale money as some sort of pastor somewhere, then you might be wasting your talent.

By getting hung up on the definition of predestination, you shift focus away from perhaps the most crucial point in this conversation -- God's supposed omni-xx qualities. OK let's assume God indeed has a will for us all, and we can choose whether or not to submit to it. Fine. But God is omniscient. Why would he have a plan/will for you that he knows you will not submit to? The bible claims that God knows the end from the beginning. To anyone with half a brain, that means he knows the totality of actions past, present and future. Every possible occurrence is covered within this pre-known path of events. If you were to sneeze in exactly 5 minutes from now, God already knew it would happen before he created the earth. Whether or not you chose to call this predestination is your cup of tea.

timmy2409:


Man you have such a expert way of rationalizing the irrational. If you're not already making Oledepo-scale money as some sort of pastor somewhere, then you might be wasting your talent.

By getting hung up on the definition of predestination, you shift focus away from perhaps the most crucial point in this conversation -- God's supposed omni-xx qualities. OK let's assume God indeed has a will for us all, and we can choose whether or not to submit to it. Fine. But God is omniscient. Why would he have a plan/will for you that he knows you will not submit to? The bible claims that God knows the end from the beginning. To anyone with half a brain, that means he knows the totality of actions past, present and future. Every possible occurrence is covered within this pre-known path of events. If you were to sneeze in exactly 5 minutes from now, God already knew it would happen before he created the earth. Whether or not you chose to call this predestination is your cup of tea.

What you're talking about here is foreknowledge. This is God's ability to know what you will do with the freewill He has given you. That's not predestination; it is foreknowledge.

That God knows what you will do with your freewill doesn't mean He's the one responsible for our choices.

God knows everyone who will reject His offer of salvation in Christ and go to hell, but He still gives them the privilege of that offer -because God does not judge us by His foreknowledge but by our choices and actions.

If God judges us by His foreknowledge, He would just create many people and throw them directly into hell, without even letting them live out their lives; since He knows that's where they will end up anyway. But if He does that He wouldn't be judging us based on what we did, but on what He foreknew we would do. That won't be pure justice.

So God gives man a destiny and a calling (predestination); and the power of choice to submit to that will or go his own way (freewill); and He also knows what you will choose or do with the freewill He gave you (foreknowledge)

There are four aspects of God that confuse many people. These aspects interface in scripture a lot. These are:

1: Sovereignty
2: Predestination
3: Freewill
4: Foreknowledge

But from your post, foreknowledge is what you're talking about not predestination, and God doesn't judge us by His forknowledge but by our actions and works.

ayoku777:


What you're talking about here is foreknowledge. This is God's ability to know what you will do with the freewill He has given you. That's not predestination; it is foreknowledge.

That God knows what you will do with your freewill doesn't mean He's the one responsible for our choices.

God knows everyone who will reject His offer of salvation in Christ and go to hell, but He still gives them the privilege of that offer -because God does not judge us by His foreknowledge but by our choices and actions.

If God judges us by His foreknowledge, He would just create many people and throw them directly into hell, without even letting them live out their lives; since He knows that's where they will end up anyway. But if He does that He wouldn't be judging us based on what we did, but on what He foreknew we would do. That won't be pure justice.

So God gives man a destiny and a calling (predestination); and the power of choice to submit to that will or go his own way (freewill); and He also knows what you will choose or do with the freewill He gave you (foreknowledge)

There are four aspects of God that confuse many people. These aspects interface in scripture a lot. These are:

1: Sovereignty
2: Predestination
3: Freewill
4: Foreknowledge

But from your post, foreknowledge is what you're talking about not predestination, and God doesn't judge us by His forknowledge but by our actions and works.

Foreknowledge?

Let me ask you something.... Can something God knows about us not cone to pass?

Let me rephrase the question with an example. If God knows I will eat rice this afternoon (which is foreknowledge) and since I have free will which he chooses not to infringe upon, can I east yam instead?

If I eat yam instead, that means God didn't actually know (have foreknowledge) of what I will eat.

If I eat rice because God knows... That predestination.

So I ask again, can what God knows about what we will do not come to pass?

@ayoku777, you have said it all. Very nice and elucidated.

frank317:


Foreknowledge?

Let me ask you something.... Can something God knows about us not cone to pass?

Let me rephrase the question with an example. If God knows I will eat rice this afternoon (which is foreknowledge) and since I have free will which he chooses not to infringe upon, can I east yam instead?

If I eat yam instead, that means God didn't actually know (have foreknowledge) of what I will eat.

If I eat rice because God knows... That predestination.

So I ask again, can what God knows about what we will do not come to pass?

Let me explain it step by step this way:

PREDESTINATION (Proorizo) God's predetermined will for a man. What He created a man to be an do.

Let me show you examples in scriptures of God's will for man.

2Peter 3v9 -The Lord is not slack concerning His promises, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY SHOULD PERISH, but that ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE.

God's will for everyman is for none to perish and for every to come to repentance.

1Timothy 2v3-4 -For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our saviour; who will have ALL MEN SAVED, and come unto the knowledge of the truth.

God's will is for ALL MEN to be saved and to come to the true knowledge of Christ.

FREEWILL: This is a man's power of choice or right of decision to choose to submit to God's will for his life or go his own way and do his own thing.

Everyone who is in hell or will go to hell will do so because of this factor -freewill. Because it is not God's will for any man to perish.

And it further goes to show that with freewill, God's will is not always done, and what He created a man to be and to do is not always fulfilled.

FOREKNOWLEDGE: This is God's ability to know beforehand what you will decide to do with the freewill and power of choice that He gave you.

God knows those who will reject or accept His offer of salvation in Christ Jesus. He knows those who will end up in hell and those who will make heaven.

But one thing you need to get straight is this all important fact: What God foreknows about what you will choose to do with your freewill is not decided by Him; and its not necessarily His predetermined will for you (predestination)

If a man goes to hell, God didn't predestine him for hell, the choices he made with his freewill took him to hell.

Infact Jesus said this concerning hell in:

Matthew 25v41 -Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed into everlasting fire, PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS.

Can you see? Notice hell was prepared only for Lucifer and his angels, not for any man. No man was predestined for hell. They go there of there own freewill.

So to answer your question; NO! I don't believe foreknowledge (what God knows beforehand about what you will do with your freewill) can change. But foreknowledge is not predestination. The two are different in scripture.

Predestination is what God created a man to be and do. Foreknowledge is what He knows you will be and do by the choices of your freewill.

But as I said earlier, God does not judge us by His foreknowledge, if He did, He would just create people and throw them straight into hell, without even letting them live out their lives, because He knows that's where they will end up anyway. But that will not be pure justice.

Justice is judging people by what they did, not by what you foreknew they would do.

You tried to make foreknowledge and predestination to mean the same thing. You are wrong!

You said "If I eat rice because God knows... That's predestination." No, you're far wrong; that's not predestination. You didn't eat rice BECAUSE God knows, you ate rice because you chose to eat rice. God just knew what you will choose; He didn't make you choose.

If you commit suicide, you chose to commit suicide. God only knew you will commit suicide, He didn't make you commit suicide or predestined you to commit suicide. You committed suicide of your own freewill.


Calling something the will of God, just because God knew it will happen is wrong. There are many things God knows will happen that are not His handiwork or even His will. Foreknowledge is not predestination.

If you want to know the meaning of a word in the bible, study how it was used and applied in the bible.

What God knows you will decide to be and do (foreknowledge) CAN BE DIFFERENT from what He created you to be and do (predestination).

God's foreknowledge of your choices doesn't mean He predestined you to make those choices. You make them of your own freewill. Get it now?

PRISTINEMUSCLES:
@ayoku777, you have said it all. Very nice and elucidated.

Thanks a lot.

Its hard enough explaining sovereignty, predestination, freewill and foreknowledge to christians who believe in God and the bible, much more now to those who don't believe in the bible or even in God.

God bless.

ayoku777:


Let me explain it step by step this way:

PREDESTINATION (Proorizo) God's predetermined will for a man. What He created a man to be an do.

Let me show you examples in scriptures of God's will for man.

2Peter 3v9 -The Lord is not slack concerning His promises, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY SHOULD PERISH, but that ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE.

God's will for everyman is for none to perish and for every to come to repentance.

1Timothy 2v3-4 -For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our saviour; who will have ALL MEN SAVED, and come unto the knowledge of the truth.

God's will is for ALL MEN to be saved and to come to the true knowledge of Christ.

FREEWILL: This is a man's power of choice or right of decision to choose to submit to God's will for his life or go his own way and do his own thing.

Everyone who is in hell or will go to hell will do so because of this factor -freewill. Because it is not God's will for any man to perish.

And it further goes to show that with freewill, God's will is not always done, and what He created a man to be and to do is not always fulfilled.

FOREKNOWLEDGE: This is God's ability to know beforehand what you will decide to do with the freewill and power of choice that He gave you.

God knows those who will reject or accept His offer of salvation in Christ Jesus. He knows those who will end up in hell and those who will make heaven.

But one thing you need to get straight is this all important fact: What God foreknows about what you will choose to do with your freewill is not decided by Him; and its not necessarily His predetermined will for you (predestination)

If a man goes to hell, God didn't predestine him for hell, the choices he made with his freewill took him to hell.

Infact Jesus said this concerning hell in:

Matthew 25v41 -Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed into everlasting fire, PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS.

Can you see? Notice hell was prepared only for Lucifer and his angels, not for any man. No man was predestined for hell. They go there of there own freewill.

So to answer your question; NO! I don't believe foreknowledge (what God knows beforehand about what you will do with your freewill) can change. But foreknowledge is not predestination. The two are different in scripture.

Predestination is what God created a man to be and do. Foreknowledge is what He knows you will be and do by the choices of your freewill.

But as I said earlier, God does not judge us by His foreknowledge, if He did, He would just create people and throw them straight into hell, without even letting them live out their lives, because He knows that's where they will end up anyway. But that will not be pure justice.

Justice is judging people by what they did, not by what you foreknew they would do.

You tried to make foreknowledge and predestination to mean the same thing. You are wrong!

You said "If I eat rice because God knows... That's predestination." No, you're far wrong; that's not predestination. You didn't eat rice BECAUSE God knows, you ate rice because you chose to eat rice. God just knew what you will choose; He didn't make you choose.

If you commit suicide, you chose to commit suicide. God only knew you will commit suicide, He didn't make you commit suicide or predestined you to commit suicide. You committed suicide of your own freewill.


Calling something the will of God, just because God knew it will happen is wrong. There are many things God knows will happen that are not His handiwork or even His will. Foreknowledge is not predestination.

If you want to know the meaning of a word in the bible, study how it was used and applied in the bible.

What God knows you will decide to be and do (foreknowledge) CAN BE DIFFERENT from what He created you to be and do (predestination).

God's foreknowledge of your choices doesn't mean He predestined you to make those choices. You make them of your own freewill. Get it now?

Paul writes in Romans chapter 9 " Why does God still blame us?"

why did Paul ask this question had it not been predestination?

And again Paul illustrates the relationship between God and man with a POTTER and a POT

A POTTER chooses the size, shape, colour and even purpose of a POT, and the POT cant change this nor question the POTTER

Agaiin, was it Essau's will or fault that he missed Isaac's blessings? NO. God wanted it that way

Seriously all these christian mumbo jumbo tire me...

they be like He already knows what you will do, but you still have freewill
how can you have freewill when someone already knows what you will do and you cannot do otherwise.

Your own words contradict each other so much..
God already knows those that will go to hell but those who go to hell did so by freewill.

How can it be freewill since God already know and those people must do it or else God is no longer ominscient.

If you read ur posts, i doubt if you do.. you will see that they contradict each other that it can show any sane man that you are just speaking with the bible as your brain, and whats worse they are very long and unbearably boring..

Not even ready to argue or say any further since you are convinced that white is red and still also is white

bingbagbo:



Paul writes in Romans chapter 9 " Why does God still blame us?"

why did Paul ask this question had it not been predestination?

And again Paul illustrates the relationship between God and man with a POTTER and a POT

A POTTER chooses the size, shape, colour and even purpose of a POT, and the POT cant change this nor question the POTTER

Agaiin, was it Essau's will or fault that he missed Isaac's blessings? NO. God wanted it that way

It wasn't Paul that asked that question. He said, "THOU WILT SAY THEN UNTO ME, why doth He yet find fault."

He was referring to the rational question someone who doesn't understand foreknowledge would ask. Be sincere please.

Was it God that made Esau sell his birthright? No! God only knew he would. Esau sold his birthright of his own freewill.

If you disagree please, show me then where the bible said or implied God made Esau sell his birthright?

This is what my own bible said:

Hebrews 12v16 -Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected; for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Read the passage very well.

According to hebrews; He lost his birthright cause of his own profanity, not because God made him sell it. And he was rejected from the blessing cause he refused to repent. That's what bible said. Please be sincere.

And then about Potter and clay

Jeremiah 18v6-7 -O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? Saith the Lord, Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;

If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Does this passage suggest to you that God does whatever He wants with us no matter what we do? Ofcourse not. God's dealings with us as His clay does not mean our actions can't affect anything. He said if the nation repents, they will not be destroyed.

Read the proceeding verses to see God's relationship with his own clay. Don't establish scripture with a single verse, read the passage in full context.

Let me ask you this simple question. A straight forward Yes or No will suffice:

Do you believe God predestines people for the lak of fire?

ayoku777:


Let me explain it step by step this way:

PREDESTINATION (Proorizo) God's predetermined will for a man. What He created a man to be an do.

Let me show you examples in scriptures of God's will for man.

2Peter 3v9 -The Lord is not slack concerning His promises, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY SHOULD PERISH, but that ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE.

God's will for everyman is for none to perish and for every to come to repentance.

1Timothy 2v3-4 -For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our saviour; who will have ALL MEN SAVED, and come unto the knowledge of the truth.

God's will is for ALL MEN to be saved and to come to the true knowledge of Christ.

FREEWILL: This is a man's power of choice or right of decision to choose to submit to God's will for his life or go his own way and do his own thing.

Everyone who is in hell or will go to hell will do so because of this factor -freewill. Because it is not God's will for any man to perish.

And it further goes to show that with freewill, God's will is not always done, and what He created a man to be and to do is not always fulfilled.

FOREKNOWLEDGE: This is God's ability to know beforehand what you will decide to do with the freewill and power of choice that He gave you.

God knows those who will reject or accept His offer of salvation in Christ Jesus. He knows those who will end up in hell and those who will make heaven.

But one thing you need to get straight is this all important fact: What God foreknows about what you will choose to do with your freewill is not decided by Him; and its not necessarily His predetermined will for you (predestination)

If a man goes to hell, God didn't predestine him for hell, the choices he made with his freewill took him to hell.

Infact Jesus said this concerning hell in:

Matthew 25v41 -Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed into everlasting fire, PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS.

Can you see? Notice hell was prepared only for Lucifer and his angels, not for any man. No man was predestined for hell. They go there of there own freewill.

So to answer your question; NO! I don't believe foreknowledge (what God knows beforehand about what you will do with your freewill) can change. But foreknowledge is not predestination. The two are different in scripture.

Predestination is what God created a man to be and do. Foreknowledge is what He knows you will be and do by the choices of your freewill.

But as I said earlier, God does not judge us by His foreknowledge, if He did, He would just create people and throw them straight into hell, without even letting them live out their lives, because He knows that's where they will end up anyway. But that will not be pure justice.

Justice is judging people by what they did, not by what you foreknew they would do.

You tried to make foreknowledge and predestination to mean the same thing. You are wrong!

You said "If I eat rice because God knows... That's predestination." No, you're far wrong; that's not predestination. You didn't eat rice BECAUSE God knows, you ate rice because you chose to eat rice. God just knew what you will choose; He didn't make you choose.

If you commit suicide, you chose to commit suicide. God only knew you will commit suicide, He didn't make you commit suicide or predestined you to commit suicide. You committed suicide of your own freewill.


Calling something the will of God, just because God knew it will happen is wrong. There are many things God knows will happen that are not His handiwork or even His will. Foreknowledge is not predestination.

If you want to know the meaning of a word in the bible, study how it was used and applied in the bible.

What God knows you will decide to be and do (foreknowledge) CAN BE DIFFERENT from what He created you to be and do (predestination).

God's foreknowledge of your choices doesn't mean He predestined you to make those choices. You make them of your own freewill. Get it now?

Instead of thinking my questions through and answering them clearly... You seem to be more interested in exonerating God from our choices.

Pls it seems the word predestination is causing so many confusion here since we both have different meaning of it. Me and u know what we are talking about...

Let's try again....without using the word predestination.

If I have the choice to eat rice and God knows I will eat rice... What really is the use of my choice again. Since my choice cannot go out of what God knows, do I really have a choice but to do what God already knows I will do?

If God knows that frank will be born on a certain day and he knows all the things that will happen to me in my life time, and he knows all the choice I am (free) to make bases on things that are happening around me.. And he knows my free choice will lead me to reject his word and he knows that eventually I will end up in hell... Remember he knows all these before I was born... He knows I will end up in hell before I was born, he know I will make the choice I will make and he knows these choices will lead me to hell...

Fine


Now the question is... Is it possible for me not to end up in hell despite God already knowing I will end up in hell even before I was born?

You say I have free will to make choices... Remember some being who created this world already knows every free choice I will make even before I will freely make them.

Pls critically answer this question... No digressing. Is it possible for me not to go to hell despite God already foreknowing I will go to hell?

johnydon22:
Seriously all these christian mumbo jumbo tire me...

they be like He already knows what you will do, but you still have freewill
how can you have freewill when someone already knows what you will do and you cannot do otherwise.

Your own words contradict each other so much..
God already knows those that will go to hell but those who go to hell did so by freewill.

How can it be freewill since God already know and those people must do it or else God is no longer ominscient.

If you read ur posts, i doubt if you do.. you will see that they contradict each other that it can show any sane man that you are just speaking with the bible as your brain, and whats worse they are very long and unbearably boring..

Not even ready to argue or say any further since you are convinced that white is red and still also is white

The worst part is the topic itself."Has God given humans freewill" Sounds like a little kid asking questions about Santa. A busy adult(hopefully the one who knows Santa is fake)will not bother to reply. Then I see Bible quotes flying around. That alone made me realize I opened a "typical" Nigerian thread that lacks proper educating ideas. No wonder the people as waaaay down the bottom.

frank317

This long stories is getting tiring.

Maybe your lack of faith in God is getting in the way of your objective response. So let's remove God from the explanation.

Let me put it this way now:

If I foreknow that you will reply this post I am making, did I predestined you to reply it or you replied it on your own freewill?

Is it my foreknowledge of your reply that made you reply my post or you replied my post of your own freewill?

ayoku777:
frank317

This long stories is getting tiring.

Maybe your lack of faith in God is getting in the way of your objective response. So let's remove God from the explanation.

Let me put it this way now:

If I foreknow that you will reply this post I am making, did I predestined you to reply it or you replied it on your own freewill?

Is it my foreknowledge of your reply that made you reply my post or you replied my post of your own freewill?

If frank317 doesnt reply this post, it means your foreknowledge of him replying this post is wrong.

But God as you all make us believe can never be wrong, If you do out of what he foreknows you will do, it means what he knew was wrong therefore he is not omniscient.

Or do you mean his foreknowledge of ur actions can be wrong?

So you see the flaw in trying to reconcile your foreknowledge of frank replying the post and God foreknowing someone will go to hell?

I think we need to go back to the basics.

I noticed no one else has given their own definition of predestination.

Maybe if we all give our own definition of predestination, we can start from there to know where exactly the disagreement is coming from.

This my definition of predestination based on scriptural usage and application.

PREDESTINATION (Proorizo): is the predeterminate will of God for a man. It is what God created and called a man to be and to do from the foundations of the earth.

This is my definition of predestination based on the scriptural application of the word.

If others can give their own definition of predestination, we will take it from there. Then we can see if predestination always happens no matter the person's choices or step of action -or if a man's choices can alter it.

Cc: ayoku777

Excuse me, are you saying God's foreknowledge of events is uncertain?

For the record: Its either God is in charge or man is!

You know about Jacob and Esau right?

what did the scripture say about them: one was loved and the other hated, even before they were born or did anything anything good or bad. It was for God's election to stand! Romans 9:13.

Do you realise this "free will" lie makes God seem weak?

My phone isn't in good condition now, will be back.

I've said it and will keep saying it Christians are morons

Maybe the religion turns them to morons
Or they are naturally moronic and so they all jst meet each other in christianity


How can a human being say an English word is defined by the Bible, which is originally not written in English...opposing dictionary definition by the masters of English

certainly any child of mine that follows Jesus had better keep off my property, I jst can't take such idiocy

An2elect2:
Cc: ayoku777

Excuse me, are you saying God's foreknowledge of events is uncertain?

For the record: Its either God is in charge or man is!

You know about Jacob and Esau right?

what did the scripture say about them: one was loved and the other hated, even before they were born or did anything anything good or bad. It was for God's election to stand! Romans 9:13.

Do you realise this "free will" lie makes God seem weak?

My phone isn't in good condition now, will be back.

You most probably have not carefully read through all I've been saying.

God's foreknowledge of a thing can never be wrong and I've never said it can. But I've maintained that foreknowledge is not predestination. That God knows what you will do doesn't mean He's the one that predestined you to do it.

So you believe "freewill" is a lie and man has no freewill over his choices?

Let me ask you. Is it God that predestines people to go to hell, or they go there by the choices of their own freewill?

Its not a trick question. I just want to understand your idea of God.

Is it God that predestines people to go to hell, or they go there by the choices of their own freewill?

Cutehector:
Like d bible said , he only is d author and finisher of our faith. We hav d choice to live how we choose too . But all dat happens in life is in d master plan

How does this make sense to you?

ayoku777:
frank317

This long stories is getting tiring.

Maybe your lack of faith in God is getting in the way of your objective response. So let's remove God from the explanation.

Let me put it this way now:

If I foreknow that you will reply this post I am making, did I predestined you to reply it or you replied it on your own freewill?

Is it my foreknowledge of your reply that made you reply my post or you replied my post of your own freewill?

Pls read my post again and reply me instead of asking a question that not related to what I asked.

I even said we should do away with the word predestination.

Pls read my post again and reply.

johnydon22:


If frank317 doesnt reply this post, it means your foreknowledge of him replying this post is wrong.

But God as you all make us believe can never be wrong, If you do out of what he foreknows you will do, it means what he knew was wrong therefore he is not omniscient.

Or do you mean his foreknowledge of ur actions can be wrong?

So you see the flaw in trying to reconcile your foreknowledge of frank replying the post and God foreknowing someone will go to hell?

Seriously Did he pretend not t see this perfect response?

ayoku777:
I think we need to go back to the basics.

I noticed no one else has given their own definition of predestination.

Maybe if we all give our own definition of predestination, we can start from there to know where exactly the disagreement is coming from.

This my definition of predestination based on scriptural usage and application.

PREDESTINATION (Proorizo): is the predeterminate will of God for a man. It is what God created and called a man to be and to do from the foundations of the earth.

This is my definition of predestination based on the scriptural application of the word.

If others can give their own definition of predestination, we will take it from there. Then we can see if predestination always happens no matter the person's choices or step of action -or if a man's choices can alter it.

predestination as given by the dictionary (theology) The doctrine that everything has been foreordained by a God…

Now we have gotten the definition of what predestination really is from the ENGLISH DICTIONARY... now tell me

If everything have been foreordained tell me how man still have freewill since all you do must go according that invisible plan already foreordained for you... If man have freewill how can everything be foreordained by any deity...