folaski:
All human beings are religious without any exception. It is what they worship and how they worship that differs. For anyone to say he/she does not have a religion is not true. This is because we all hold ideologies or believes systems. For instance if you are a strong believer in Carl Max's philosophy of life, that will be the guiding principle that governs your life. So in a sense Carl Max is your god who's opinion guides your life. You have idolised him.

If you are so bound to anything or anyone then you have a god in them ad so you are religious.

Atheist take note : you have a god and a religion .

Op, take note that the broader your definitions, the more meaningless the subject of definition becomes. If I asked you who the president of Nigeria is, and you said "some guy", you will be technically correct, but of what use will your answer be to me?

So when you imply that religion may be defined as an ideology one is passionate about, there may be some technical truth to such a proposition, but then, it becomes superfluous and the meaning you then try to convey by the consequent claim, that is, all atheists are therefore religious is totally lost.

laniyi07:
when u say 'follow' wat exactly do u mean? are you sayin gilgamesh (or watever u call it) flood event happened before the bible's.
which account do u believe in gilgamesh or genesis(bible)

For starters I don't have to believe either because the reality of the past is not contingent on my belief....
And geology does not support such wild tales..
You can't have a worldwide flood and have unique geographic structures and their respective animals living in distinct habitats with no identical fossil were it shouldn't be...

johnydon22:


He is saying that the gilgemesh fable is a myth from whence the bible's account was copied and reworked ...

substantiate ur claims sir

davien:
For starters I don't have to believe either because the reality of the past is not contingent on my belief....
And geology does not support such wild tales..
You can't have a worldwide flood and have unique geographic structures and their respective animals living in distinct habitats with no identical fossil were it shouldn't be...

you do believe in geology.....I see.......do u believe in the geologic time scale too?


try to get ur facts right before u post here next time, you only got people more confused on your take on the gigamesh saga.

laniyi07:
substantiate ur claims sir

a simple google search would have helped you but no you prefer blind belief of jewish mythology..

Wikipedia encyclopedia [b] Origins
See also: Panbabylonism
The Mesopotamian Epic of Gilgamesh, composed about 2500 BC, contains
a flood story almost exactly the same as the Noah story in the Pentateuch,
with a few variations such as the number of days of the deluge, the order
of the birds, and the name of the mountain on which the ark rests. The
flood story in Genesis 6–8 matches the Gilgamesh flood myth so closely
that "few doubt that [it] derives from a Mesopotamian account." [10] What
is particularly noticeable is the way the Genesis flood story follows the
Gilgamesh flood tale "point by point and in the same order", even when the
story permits other alternatives. [11]
The earliest written flood myth is found in the Mesopotamian Epic of
Atrahasis and Epic of Gilgamesh texts. "These mythologies are the source
of such features of the biblical Flood story as the building and provisioning
of the ark, its flotation, and the subsidence of the waters, as well as the
part played by the human protagonist." [12] The Encyclopedia Judaica
adds that there is a strong suggestion that[/b]

try and research more...

and below is a picture of the explanation as given by the New Community Bible ..

laniyi07:
you do believe in geology.....I see.......do u believe in the geologic time scale too?


try to get ur facts right before u post here next time, you only got people more confused on your take on the gigamesh saga.

You don't speak for everyone and I get what you're doing with the term "believe"..
You're basically using tautology as an escape tactic to meander around topics...
And to that I'll simply point out(once again) that reality is not contingent on belief(that-is things don't become true because you believe it, they are independent of your belief)...
So either tell me what's "confusing" you instead of replying with an empty response like "try to get your facts right"

johnydon22:

a simple google search would have helped you but no you prefer blind belief of jewish mythology..

Wikipedia encyclopedia [b] Origins
See also: Panbabylonism
The Mesopotamian Epic of Gilgamesh, composed about 2500 BC, contains
a flood story almost exactly the same as the Noah story in the Pentateuch,
with a few variations such as the number of days of the deluge, the order
of the birds, and the name of the mountain on which the ark rests. The
flood story in Genesis 6–8 matches the Gilgamesh flood myth so closely
that "few doubt that [it] derives from a Mesopotamian account." [10] What
is particularly noticeable is the way the Genesis flood story follows the
Gilgamesh flood tale "point by point and in the same order", even when the
story permits other alternatives. [11]
The earliest written flood myth is found in the Mesopotamian Epic of
Atrahasis and Epic of Gilgamesh texts. "These mythologies are the source
of such features of the biblical Flood story as the building and provisioning
of the ark, its flotation, and the subsidence of the waters, as well as the
part played by the human protagonist." [12] The Encyclopedia Judaica
adds that there is a strong suggestion that[/b]

try and research more...

and below is a picture of the explanation as given by the New Community Bible ..

He's the "if I don't believe it, it's not true" category...

davien:
You don't speak for everyone and I get what you're doing with the term "believe"..
You're basically using tautology as an escape tactic to meander around topics...
And to that I'll simply point out(once again) that reality is not contingent on belief(that-is things don't become true because you believe it, they are independent of your belief)...
So either tell me what's "confusing" you instead of replying with an empty response like "try to get your facts right"

I am just trying to be objective really cos this is the first time I am hearing of gilgamesh and the rest. i wanted you to convince me and you have not sir(u can try again) and from your comments I tried to understand your believe system because we all have wat we believe in like u cited geology.



so lemme ask again. what do u believe in?

"Atheists have a religion", says a nauseating fool.

johnydon22:

a simple google search would have helped you but no you prefer blind belief of jewish mythology..

Wikipedia encyclopedia [b] Origins
See also: Panbabylonism
The Mesopotamian Epic of Gilgamesh, composed about 2500 BC, contains
a flood story almost exactly the same as the Noah story in the Pentateuch,
with a few variations such as the number of days of the deluge, the order
of the birds, and the name of the mountain on which the ark rests. The
flood story in Genesis 6–8 matches the Gilgamesh flood myth so closely
that "few doubt that [it] derives from a Mesopotamian account." [10] What
is particularly noticeable is the way the Genesis flood story follows the
Gilgamesh flood tale "point by point and in the same order", even when the
story permits other alternatives. [11]
The earliest written flood myth is found in the Mesopotamian Epic of
Atrahasis and Epic of Gilgamesh texts. "These mythologies are the source
of such features of the biblical Flood story as the building and provisioning
of the ark, its flotation, and the subsidence of the waters, as well as the
part played by the human protagonist." [12] The Encyclopedia Judaica
adds that there is a strong suggestion that[/b]

try and research more...

and below is a picture of the explanation as given by the New Community Bible ..

mr oga! whet my appetite first before I do my own research ok. I am not impressed at what u put up already. give me links to the Gilgamesh original account of flooding so I can objectively read and get back to you. not some wikipedia write up (I fit edit article on wikipedia sef).




I cant do your wirk fir u sir

davien:
He's the "if I don't believe it, it's not true" category...

MY BELIEF IS MY REALITY.......hope this helps

I can see clearly now

"dreaming was considered a supernatural
communication or a means of divine intervention" en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_analysis

laniyi07:
I am just trying to be objective really cos this is the first time I am hearing of gilgamesh and the rest. i wanted you to convince me and you have not sir(u can try again) and from your comments I tried to understand your believe system because we all have wat we believe in like u cited geology.



so lemme ask again. what do u believe in?

I was not forwarding a claim...So no convincing needed to be done....all you had to do was read and follow up on the citations, that was it....
Either you don't know what/who bears the "burden of proof" in an argument and can't tell the difference between a citation and a claim...

folaski:
"dreaming was considered a supernatural
communication or a means of divine intervention" en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_analysis

the bolded already said it all... [size=20] was [/size]... lol ..now let me oblige you the definition of dreams since you purposely dont want to define dreams for me..

Dreams are successions of images, ideas, emotions, and sensations that
occur involuntarily in the mind during certain stages of sleep .
Dreams are just a figment of your mind, your brain to be precise so i wonder how you intend to make it help you say something like the spirit world exist.

now back to our discussion... How did you know the spirit exists?

laniyi07:
MY BELIEF IS MY REALITY.......hope this helps

I can see clearly now

what

woooooooooow and this is special.

nawa oo

laniyi07:
mr oga! whet my appetite first before I do my own research ok. I am not impressed at what u put up already. give me links to the Gilgamesh original account of flooding so I can objectively read and get back to you. not some wikipedia write up (I fit edit article on wikipedia sef).




I cant do your wirk fir u sir

I even provided a snap shot of a biblical explanation seems you failed to see that too..

It obvious you never knew about any other flood myth before, you are just hearing it today... lolzzz..

This is the stage i tell people google.com.ng is your best friend..

johnydon22:

a simple google search would have helped you but no you prefer blind belief of jewish mythology..

Wikipedia encyclopedia [b] Origins
See also: Panbabylonism
The Mesopotamian Epic of Gilgamesh, composed about 2500 BC, contains
a flood story almost exactly the same as the Noah story in the Pentateuch,
with a few variations such as the number of days of the deluge, the order
of the birds, and the name of the mountain on which the ark rests. The
flood story in Genesis 6–8 matches the Gilgamesh flood myth so closely
that "few doubt that [it] derives from a Mesopotamian account." [10] What
is particularly noticeable is the way the Genesis flood story follows the
Gilgamesh flood tale "point by point and in the same order", even when the
story permits other alternatives. [11]
The earliest written flood myth is found in the Mesopotamian Epic of
Atrahasis and Epic of Gilgamesh texts. "These mythologies are the source
of such features of the biblical Flood story as the building and provisioning
of the ark, its flotation, and the subsidence of the waters, as well as the
part played by the human protagonist." [12] The Encyclopedia Judaica
adds that there is a strong suggestion that[/b]

try and research more...

and below is a picture of the explanation as given by the New Community Bible ..

Johnny , 3 questions

is it impossible that these other folks copied the jewish tales on this matter.. knowing fully well that several times in history jews tribes are often driven out from their hosts communities and their historical records, torah, tamuld and other manuscripts etc stolen, confiscated or destroyed..?

Is it also impossible that such an event or something similar occurred and tales of it got passed from generation to generation and hence variations occur in different records by different civilizations. ..be it jewish or otherwise?

I would like to know how a young atheist such as urself reconcile the possibility of these 2 scenarios.

I have thought about some of these things..
The biggest argument for the christain scripture is the accuracy of its prophesies. ..

This bring me to my 3rd question... have u read anything on biblical prophesies ?

Peace.

Ifeann:


Johnny , 3 questions

is it impossible that these other folks copied the jewish tales on this matter.. knowing fully well that several times in history jews tribes are often driven out from their hosts communities and their historical records, torah, tamuld and other manuscripts etc stolen, confiscated or destroyed..?

The mesopotamian civilization thrive thousands of years before that of the jews.. stories like the mesopotamian creation story, gilgemesh fable have been there thousands of years before the emergence of jewish civilization...
It is possible they copied from the jewish fable just like it is possible that the bible copied from koran..

Ifeann:

Is it also impossible that such an event or something similar occurred and tales of it got passed from generation to generation and hence variations occur in different records by different civilizations. ..be it jewish or otherwise?

It is wolrd wide knowledge that the mesopotamian flood story is myth, their are no archeological evidence to support a world wide flood, neither is it possible for millions of species to fit into one ark and live for a year (carnivores eating herbs ..lol) . . .The story itself clearly shows it's implausibility.

Ifeann:

I would like to know how a young atheist such as urself reconcile the possibility of these 2 scenarios.

I have thought about some of these things..
The biggest argument for the christain scripture is the accuracy of its prophesies. ..

This bring me to my 3rd question... have u read anything on biblical prophesies ?

Peace.

The prophecy of the end of the world is a very wide spread prophecy that we all have heard about, which is causing so much scare in christiandom as it stands today...

folaski:
"dreaming was considered a supernatural
communication or a means of divine intervention" en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_analysis

Wow...so much dishonesty in that statement.

johnydon22:

The mesopotamian civilization thrive thousands of years before that of the jews.. stories like the mesopotamian creation story, gilgemesh fable have been there thousands of years before the emergence of jewish civilization...
It is possible they copied from the jewish fable just like it is possible that the bible copied from koran..



It is wolrd wide knowledge that the mesopotamian flood story is myth, their are no archeological evidence to support a world wide flood, neither is it possible for millions of species to fit into one ark and live for a year (carnivores eating herbs ..lol) . . .The story itself clearly shows it's implausibility.


The prophecy of the end of the world is a very wide spread prophecy that we all have heard about, which is causing so much scare in christiandom as it stands today...

Thrive is very different word from beginning. timeline of Ancient Mesopotamian civilization is 5000-3500 BC: The first city-states gradually develop in southern Mesopotamia. This is the achievement of the Sumerian people. The jewish records go as far back as this..bear in mind the jews were an oppressed people who didn't THRIVE in anyone place for long.. so u are right to say the mesopotamians thrived before the jews but did they exist or begin much before the jews.. so u saying this and I quote , "It is possible they copied from the jewish fable just like it is possible that the bible copied from koran.. " is without credibility.


You also said

their are no archeological evidence to support a world wide flood, neither is it possible for millions of species to fit into one ark and live for a year (carnivores eating herbs ..lol) . . .The story itself clearly shows it's implausibility.

Even tho there is evidence for sea shells on top of mountains whixh scientists have tried to explain..I won't try to convince u a great flooding may have caused this. ...Again ..Christains believe in a God that is all powerful ...if he could send all animals to a great big ark .. it is possible to make all of 2 species fit and not consume each other should he please. .this is far more believe literally than the garden and fruit and creation tale which I often view as allegorical. This is why your former church's Catholic universities teach evolution in their university..evolution is outrightly rejected by Muslims.


Now to the last point ... apparently u misunderstood me... I am not talking about end time prophesies. Not revelations but more of Isaiah, genesis etc from the OT. .I am talking about prophesies that have already been fulfilled about the the Messiah. .christains, Arabs, Mohammed, turkey, syria, Babylon.. etc haven't u read anything on these..

Ifeann:

I'm talking about prophesies that have already been fulfiled about the Messiah.

If your Messiah is the Jesus of the Gospels, I can relate. What prophecy did He fulfil? (let's assume He existed)

Ifeann:


Thrive is very different word from beginning. timeline of Ancient Mesopotamian civilization is 5000-3500 BC: The first city-states gradually develop in southern Mesopotamia. This is the achievement of the Sumerian people. The jewish records go as far back as this..bear in mind the jews were an oppressed people who didn't THRIVE in anyone place for long.. so u are right to say the mesopotamians thrived before the jews but did they exist or begin much before the jews.. so u saying this and I quote , "It is possible they copied from the jewish fable just like it is possible that the bible copied from koran.. " is without credibility.

Abraham the jewish patriarch is from the land of Ur in ancient mesopotamia.
Bearing this is in mind the mesopotamians clearly were in existence before the very founding fore-father of the jewish race Abraham..
The issue of jews being an oppressed nation is not a historical fact, cus their is no record or external historical source that suggests jews were ever in egypt..

Ifeann:

You also said


Even tho there is evidence for sea shells on top of mountains whixh scientists have tried to explain..I won't try to convince u a great flooding may have caused this. ...Again ..Christains believe in a God that is all powerful ...if he could send all animals to a great big ark .. it is possible to make all of 2 species fit and not consume each other should he please. .this is far more believe literally than the garden and fruit and creation tale which I often view as allegorical. This is why your former church's Catholic universities teach evolution in their university..evolution is outrightly rejected by Muslims.

The same way the christians believe this, is the same way the mesopotamians believe it was the supreme god Ea and indian mythology attributes it to vishnu, they are all implausible fables but as you said all points down to BELIEF...

Ifeann:

Now to the last point ... apparently u misunderstood me... I am not talking about end time prophesies. Not revelations but more of Isaiah, genesis etc from the OT. .I am talking about prophesies that have already been fulfilled about the the Messiah. .christains, Arabs, Mohammed, turkey, syria, Babylon.. etc haven't u read anything on these..

The messiah prophecy as listed in the talmud quite contradicts the Jesus messiah tale thats why adherents of judaism rejects the jesus messiah claim till today and which is why the jewish scripture of talmud is missing from the christian bible..... the Christian bible being a work of emperor constantine and early christian fathers in Nicene..

The gospel being second century christian write ups (this you must have known) is still a debatable source since it contradicts each other and proves not to be first hand accounts but second century work based on oral traditions.

check out the debates in a thread created by frosbe.l a christian

https://www.nairaland.com/2072612/wrote-new-testament

https://www.nairaland.com/2042507/why-deny-virgin-birth-jesus

johnydon22:
Abraham the jewish patriarch is from the land of Ur in ancient mesopotamia.
Bearing this is in mind the mesopotamians clearly were in existence before the very founding fore-father of the jewish race Abraham..
The issue of jews being an oppressed nation is not a historical fact, cus their is no record or external historical source that suggests jews were ever in egypt..



The same way the christians believe this, is the same way the mesopotamians believe it was the supreme god Ea and indian mythology attributes it to vishnu, they are all implausible fables but as you said all points down to BELIEF...



The messiah prophecy as listed in the talmud quite contradicts the Jesus messiah tale thats why adherents of judaism rejects the jesus messiah claim till today and which is why the jewish scripture of talmud is missing from the christian bible..... the Christian bible being a work of emperor constantine and early christian fathers in Nicene..

The gospel being second century christian write ups (this you must have known) is still a debatable source since it contradicts each other and proves not to be first hand accounts but second century work based on oral traditions.

check out the debates in a thread created by frosbe.l a christian

https://www.nairaland.com/2072612/wrote-new-testament

https://www.nairaland.com/2042507/why-deny-virgin-birth-jesus

I see how u cleverly skip my other question on prophesies. ..anyway that's besides the point..

Again Johnny there are things u say that shows ur naiveté.
For example

The issue of jews being an oppressed nation is not a historical fact, cus their is no record or external historical source that suggests jews were ever in egypt..

The jewish communities and lands have been attacked and destroyed hundreds of times throughout history..Google is ur friend....use it... I agree that one may say that there is little evidence to suggest jewish presence in egypt same as their is NO evidence to conclude that jews were never there.

But that said this one event doesn't mean that jews were or were not oppressed in egypt or elsewhere..besides you don't expect ancient records of Egyptians to contain significant information on a little slave tribe.. also bear in mind the Great Library of Alexandria which may have contained any such records was destroyed along with so many ancient secrets. Not to mention the destructions the muslims did to civilizations by annihilating records kept by scribes , monasteries etc after they took over...so much information has been lost.

U see ...the evidence to make absolute statements from an atheist perspective is lacking. The theists have concrete records informs of manuscripts no matter the perceived conflicts. Whereas the atheist has only conjecture.and assumptions. .


Hoold on.. I just saw u said that the gospels are second century write ups... tisk tisk tisk... who told u this Bart ehrman, Richard Dawkins,..for.bel? ?? Lol.. the latest gospel is John which is unconservatively estimated to be 90 years after Jesus.. the consensus and evidence point to the theory that apostle John died a very oldman.
.
The gospel according to mark is said to be 30 years after the fact..

Johnny boy u have a lot of reading to do.

folaski:

check this out: when you sleep in an air conditioned room and you had a dream that something is pitching you and you are running and sweating in the dream. when you wake up sweating, scared and tired. how do you explain what happened between the visible and invisible. between the physical and the superphysical. How would you explain the man that was running in the superphysical and the one sweating in the physical?
lets start from there.

Seriously dude, u need education. How do u KNOW the spirit world exist and you begin to talk about some things u don't understand just because u refuse to read wide and now that's how u know the spirit world exist?

The phenomena u described above have been studied and researched by ur fellow humans but ur lazy mind quickly concludes its the spirit world... Pls u might be ignorant but its pure foolishness when u just paint ur ignorance like knowledge.

Pr0ton:


If your Messiah is the Jesus of the Gospels, I can relate. What prophecy did He fulfil? (let's assume He existed)

I don't like answering a question with a question but before I continue , u said " let's assume he existed".. I would like to ask do u believe these 2 people existed
Apostle Paul
The Islamic Mohammed. .

Ifeann:


I don't like answering a question with a question but before I continue , u said " let's assume he existed".. I would like to ask do u believe these 2 people existed
Apostle Paul
The Islamic Mohammed. .

Yh. They did.

Ifeann:


I see how u cleverly skip my other question on prophesies. ..anyway that's besides the point..

How quaint you chose to forgo the jewish talmud messiac prophecy i told you and dabble into misinterpreted prophecies... can you list one of those prophecies for me and all to see?

Ifeann:

Again Johnny there are things u say that shows ur naiveté.
For example

too bad you can never argue without employing unnecessary ad hominem.. **sighs** anyways..

Ifeann:

The jewish communities and lands have been attacked and destroyed hundreds of times throughout history..Google is ur friend....use it... I agree that one may say that there is little evidence to suggest jewish presence in egypt same as their is NO evidence to conclude that jews were never there.

If you are referring to the various attacks and destructions as seen in the likes of nehemiah and meccabeus, its all part of the everyday events of ancient world.. every civilization face wars and attacks so the jewish attacks is nothing special..

Ifeann:

But that said this one event doesn't mean that jews were or were not oppressed in egypt or elsewhere..besides you don't expect ancient records of Egyptians to contain significant information on a little slave tribe.. also bear in mind the Great Library of Alexandria which may have contained any such records was destroyed along with so many ancient secrets. Not to mention the destructions the muslims did to civilizations by annihilating records kept by scribes , monasteries etc after they took over...so much information has been lost.

lmao.

i love the excusses..

Ifeann:

U see ...the evidence to make absolute statements from an atheist perspective is lacking. The theists have concrete records informs of manuscripts no matter the perceived conflicts. Whereas the atheist has only conjecture.and assumptions. .


Hoold on.. I just saw u said that the gospels are second century write ups... tisk tisk tisk... who told u this Bart ehrman, Richard Dawkins,..for.bel? ?? Lol.. the latest gospel is John which is unconservatively estimated to be 90 years after Jesus.. the consensus and evidence point to the theory that apostle John died a very oldman.
.
The gospel according to mark is said to be 30 years after the fact..

Johnny boy u have a lot of reading to do.

For this their is nothing i can say to make you drop your belief about the authorship of the supposedly synoptic gospels..leme drop some snapshots for you taken from the New community Bible on introductions to the gospels.

Now dude i bid you to go dabble more and check how these tales were concorted then come back

Pr0ton:


Yh. They did.

Okay..at least u are not one of those people who don't believe the existence of historical figures...
But I am puzzled .. if u believe Apostle Paul existed why then do u doubt the existence of Christ. He lived for only 33 years and changed the world yet u doubt he existed. . I just don't get it.. I am Goin to make a post about bible prophesies over the weekend, I will mention u.

@Ifeann

Your dating of the Gospel of John shouldn't be 90AD, but at least 90AD as the Gospel is arbitrary believed to be written within 90-120AD.

Mark was written between 60-75AD and should be at least 30 years after the fact. 1Peter was written 110AD, so falls in the second century.

Ifeann:


Okay..at least u are not one of those people who don't believe the existence of historical figures...
But I am puzzled .. if u believe Apostle Paul existed why then do u doubt the existence of Christ. He lived for only 33 years and changed the world yet u doubt he existed. . I just don't get it.. I am Goin to make a post about bible prophesies over the weekend, I will mention u.

Don't you know that Paul's version of Jesus is different? His Jesus was born of a woman and not a young virgin. His Jesus abolished the law while the Jesus of the Gospels denied abolishing it. He rebuked Peter in Gal 2:11-21 for heresy. He even warned against the preaching of another Jesus in 2Cor 10:4. His Jesus is spiritual. He might be someone suffering from hallucination as revealed in 2Cor 12:2-4.

And don't believe Paul wrote all the letters ascribed to him in the Bible.

Pr0ton:
@Ifeann

Your dating of the Gospel of John shouldn't be 90AD, but at least 90AD as the Gospel is arbitrary believed to be written within 90-120AD.

Mark was written between 60-75AD and should be at least 30 years after the fact. 1Peter was written 110AD, so falls in the second century.

Proton listen I said john is unconservatively estimated to be 90 years after Jesus. . It means at most 90+33 = 123 AD.. I didn't say 90 ad but 123 ad. Even tho some people say it's as early as 90AD that is 57 years after Christ. What's ur confusion.
2. I said mark is estimated to be 30 years after the fact...30+33 is 63 ad. .you say it's between 60 and 75 ad. .are we in conflict??

I like to give the date based on the period between the fact (death and resurrection ) to the estimated gospel date for a clearer picture

Ifeann:


Proton listen I said john is unconservatively estimated to be 90 years after Jesus. . It means at most 90+33 = 123 AD.. I didn't say 90 ad but 123 ad. Even tho some people say it's as early as 90AD that is 57 years after Christ. What's ur confusion.
2. I said mark is estimated to be 30 years after the fact...30+33 is 63 ad. .you say it's between 60 and 75 ad. .are we in conflict??

I like to give the date based on the period between the fact (death and resurrection ) to the estimated gospel date for a clearer picture

Ok then. And about Paul?