Jonathan:

And what silly question is that?

Keep beating about the bush, that's how we know people with no answers.

Many people are ignorant about the bible's teaching of Mary. In argument like this I don't talk... May God forgive all those speaking against Mary. Even God blessed,Favoured and singled her out amongst women. Jesus Never Disrespect Her. He also Honoured her Requests. If you want to condemn people not BVM.
May God Absorb us from our sins.


Proudly Catholic.

jnrbayano:


Answer my question first bro so that I can answer yours.

Here is it again,

"I delivered him (that target in my example) from that danger. No?"

no Bros u didn't but God used u to do it.who r u to deliver?be careful o!"I WILL NEVER SHARE MY GLORY WILL ANY BODY"

honourhim:
Luke 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. 28 [b][/b]But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

We can see in the scripture above that Christ didnt give support to the slightest worship of his mother yet people wont hear.

Jesus was a Jew and so cannot have sanctioned worship of his mother or of himself for that matter. In that regard Judaism and Islam are in agreement.This is just an academic point for me as I believe Africans must worship African Gods

jnrbayano:


Why then do you take the ones done by catholics literally (worship) whereas it can also be perceived in another way (honour and respect)?

Cuz its to do with religion n not traditions
Yes its just my opinion if i go to hell cuz i refuse to kneel to mary joseph , man, elders or whatever so be it ...

It shouldn't bother u that much ...

LadyBoss1:

Well cant say
Only God can judge just stating its in d commandments not to kneel ...

the commandments never said 'not to kneel' & if that's the case then kneeling to greet elders is also worshipping

I'm not a christian but I was once a catholic
& they don't worship Mary neither do they worship the statues & statuettes. that's just ludicrous.
whoever says that is just ignorant of their doctrines. ✘

dnawah:
no Bros u didn't but God used u to do it.who r u to deliver?be careful o!"I WILL NEVER SHARE MY GLORY WILL ANY BODY"

God uses her assistance to as well..

God can use anyone he likes to perform any task...no?

Mary, angels and saints assist me on matters with God...do you have any problems with that?

darkenedrebel:



the commandments never said 'not to kneel' & if that's the case then kneeling to greet elders is also worshipping

I'm not a christian but I was once a catholic
& they don't worship Mary neither do they worship the statues & statuettes. that's just ludicrous.
whoever says that is just ignorant of their doctrines. ✘

Well thats ur opinion
If u like call me ignorant thats ur own biz .. If i dont want to kneel except when i pray to God its not u to decide ..

LadyBoss1:

Cuz its to do with religion n not traditions
Yes its just my opinion if i go to hell cuz i refuse to kneel to mary joseph , man, elders or whatever so be it ...

It shouldn't bother u that much ...

In the same vein what we do in our religion shouldn't bother you that much too...

I don't want you to go to hell by the way.

jnrbayano:


In the same vein what we do in our religion shouldn't bother you that much too...

I don't want you to go to hell by the way.

But im also catholic sooo..., ur point is what exactly ..
Kneel if u want to .. Like im not doing it deal with it

ARE you God to judge what is wrong or right... Mind your business and Worship the one you believe in .... we Nigerians ... we just carry church for head pass the British way even introduce ammm... na waaa

It pains me to see Christians argue and fight over things like this. Like I have always said, the Bible isn't just a book you read and give meanings to it, we need to be spirit filled to understand the sacred words of the Bible. Humanly : thorough study of the Bible will show it to be self contradictory.
For even satan quoted the Bible to Jesus in the second temptation Matt 4:5 & 6. But Jesus rebuked him again using the scripture Matt 4:7. So Brethen, if you have anything you ain't sure about, ask the right person and be open to learn........#Shalom

SalC:
You can't be sure I haven't read that passage, but it proves nothing in the face of other scriptural verses

And as for what Christians believe or should believe, I choose to head to the scripture which admonishes us to believe the written scriptures and oral tradition 2Thess 2:15

I disagree based on scripture, so am not disagreeing with scripture but your conviction of that scripture.

Well this here is for you two

................
The popular scripture being used by many to prove that Mary the mother of Jesus had other children is Matt 13:55

Isn't he the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother Mary? And aren't James, Joseph, Simon and Judas his brothers?

Now comparing the above scriptural verse to others will show just how weak such assumption is.

Now let's slowly consider some scriptural passages

Matt 27:55-56 There were many women there looking on from a distance, who had followed Jesus from Galille and helped him, Among them where Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joseph and the wife of Zebedee.

From the passage above, we can deduce that there was a "Mary" who was with Mary Magdalene during the agony of Christ and this Mary is the mother of James and Joseph
Notice also that this happened after the crucifixtion of Jesus, infact when the writer put this forth, Jesus was already dead in v50. This shows that these women were somewhere around the site of the crucifixtion of Christ.

Again Mark in his narration of thesame incidence has this to say

Mark 15:40-41 Some women were there looking on from a distance, among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of the younger James and of James and Salome. They followed Jesus while he was in Galille and had helped him. Many other women who had come to Jerusalem with him were also there.

Here we see Mark narrating thesame story but he gives us a clearer view of whom these women are. Notice that there is still this "MARY" who is with Mary Magdalene and she is the mother of "the younger James and of Joseph"
This brings us to the question,"who is being referred to as the younger James"? (we will come to this later)

In Mark 16:1 Here we see Mark narrating the resurrection incidence yet thesame Mary the mother of James is still with Mary Magdalene
Mark 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Salome had brought sweet spices that they might come and anoint him.

In the last three scriptural verses provided, there was only one Mary who has been with Mary Magdalene and she is. [b]Mary the mother of James and Joseph

One may feel like arguing that this Mary the Mother of the younger James and Joseph is thesame as Mary the mother of Jesus, but if this Mary has always been with Mary Magdalene and so far no gospel writer deemed it fit to refer to her as the mother of Jesus, the next verse raises a serious question.

John 19:25 Standing close to Jesus' cross were his MOTHER, his mother's sister Mary the wife of cleopas and Mary Magdalene.

Interesting Jesus' mother (Mary) was mentioned, we suddenly had three Mary(s) instead of the usual two

Here we have three different people named Mary. One is the mother of Jesus, the other is Mary the wife of cleopas and the last is Mary Magdalene. Let's not forget that there has always been a "Mary" who was with Mary Magdalene. Matt 27:56 refer to her as the mother of James and Joseph Matt 28:1 referred to her as the other Mary Matt 27:61 referred to her as the other Mary, Mark 15:40 called her Mary the mother of the younger James and Joseph, Mark 16:1 called her Mary the mother of James
But none thought it wise to call her the mother of Jesus.

To avoid drawing a hasty conclusion, let's find out who is the younger James

Among the twelve apostles of Jesus, there were two people named "James" One is the son of Zebedee and the other is the son of Alpheus Mark 3:16-19, notably these two James have most times been distinguished as James the greater (son of Zebedee) and james the less or the younger (son of Alpheus)

......


From the above, we see that referring to him as James the less or the younger was merely to distinguish him from the greater James (son of Zebedee) and also this James the less is the son of Alpheus.

And this brings us to the question "who is Alpheus?"



Now that we know that Alpheus is same Cleopas of John 19:25, the husband of the other Mary who is the sister of Jesus' mother Mary and the mother of James and Joseph who Matt 13:55 called his brothers. We can now is why it is ideal to called them his "Adelphos" which could mean brothers, cousins, kinsmen etc but never where they referred to as the sons of Mary the mother of Jesus. And before you start wondering how I arrived at James the brother of Jesus being one of the twelve apostles please read Gal 1:19.

so its either u r telling us that joseph married anothher woman that gave him children or he died never having a child fathered by him,which do u mean?

LadyBoss1:

Well thats ur opinion
If u like call me ignorant thats ur own biz .. If i dont want to kneel except when i pray to God its not u to decide ..

I didn't call you ignorant.
I said Ignorant of their doctrines

Alright then. ✘

LadyBoss1:


But im also catholic sooo..., ur point is what exactly ..
Kneel if u want to .. Like im not doing it deal with it

Not pushing you to, that's not even the point of argument. Honouring Mary, mother of Jesus who is God, is...

We chating bout worship n bowing to mary, empty cells jump in A n B convo talking bout elders .. Like how do the two mix

Out of here .. U ppl just cant have healthy debate without thriwing sly digs ..
N yet dey claim to go to school

jnrbayano:


Who disvirgined her.

You?

Matt12:46, Lk 8:19, Mark 3:31...says Jesus' mother and brothers came to see him......Matt13:55...says James, Joseph, Simon (not Peter) and Judas (not the betrayer) were Jesus' brothers.

Jn 7:1-10; Jesus' brothers went to the festival while he stayed behind.

Acts 1:14; His brothers and mother were praying with the disciples.

Gal 1:19; James is Jesus' brother.

It is clear that Mary & Joseph birthed other kids after the miraculous conception of Jesus.

LadyBoss1:
We chating bout worship n bowing to mary, empty cells jump in A n B convo talking bout elders .. Like how do the two mix

it's an analogy..

statues are physical representations.
the idea is that they[statues] helps for better in connecting with the divine. ✘

darkenedrebel:



it's an analogy..

statues are physical representations.
the idea is that they[statues] help better in connecting with the divine. ✘

But what did the bible say about statues .. There was no but or exceptions nor explanations
Dark ur giving me headache mehn abeg free me
If im wrong den let me be wrong u guys should honour whoever whats my own

linearity:

Matt12:46, Lk 8:19, Mark 3:31...says Jesus' mother and brothers came to see him......Matt13:55...says James, Joseph, Simon (not Peter) and Judas (not the betrayer) were Jesus' brothers.

Jn 7:1-10; Jesus' brothers went to the festival while he stayed behind.

Acts 1:14; His brothers and mother were praying with the disciples.

Gal 1:19; James is Jesus' brother.

It is clear that Mary & Joseph birthed other kids after the miraculous conception of Jesus.

Were they called Mary's children?

kingsley3218:
Your such an id*** 4 an expression like that,how would u feel if they call ur mother a ho...... Activate ur 6th sense 4 once.

he would explain what ho means when Christ asks him what the foool called his mother

neocortex:


Note , I am not trying to disprove your believe because it is none of my business, but I have to answer
you.

Matthew 13:55-56 "Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56 "And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?" 57 And they took offense at Him. But Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his home town, and in his own household."


Mark 6:3 "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?" And they took offense at Him. 4 And Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his home town and among his own relatives and in his own household.

Here is a more subtle proof.

In the book of mathew

1:22 This all happened so that what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet would be fulfilled: 1:23 “Look! The virgin will conceive and bear a son, and they will call him Emmanuel,” which means “God with us.” 1:24 When Joseph awoke from sleep he did what the angel of the Lord told him. He took his wife, 1:25 but did not have marital relations with her until she gave birth to a son, whom he called Jesus.

1:25 told us that Joseph had marital relationship with Mary after the birth of Jesus.

Defence, Proofs Or Indicatuons That Presents MARY As PERPETUAL VIRGIN - Religion - Nigeria - https://www.nairaland.com/2428810/defence-proofs-indicatuons-presents-mary

goldenceo1:



Brother When trying to understand these verses, note that the term "brother" (Greek: adelphos ) has a wide meaning in the Bible. It is not restricted to
the literal meaning of a full brother or half-
brother as potray by our modern defination of same father or mother. The same goes for "sister" ( adelphe ) and the plural form "brothers" ( adelphoi ).
The Old Testament shows that "brother" had a wide semantic range of meaning and could refer to any male relative from whom you are not
descended (male relatives from whom you are
descended are known as "fathers" and who are
not descended from you (your male descendants,
regardless of the number of generations
removed, are your "sons", as well as kinsmen
such as cousins, those who are members of the
family by marriage or by law rather than by
blood, and even friends or mere political allies (2
Sam. 1:26; Amos 1:9).

Lot, for example, is called Abraham’s
"brother" (Gen. 14:14), even though, being the
son of Haran, Abraham’s brother (Gen. 11:26–
28), he was actually Abraham’s nephew.
Similarly, Jacob is called the "brother" of his
uncle Laban (Gen. 29:15). Kish and Eleazar were
the sons of Mahli. Kish had sons of his own, but
Eleazar had no sons, only daughters, who
married their "brethren," the sons of Kish. These
"brethren" were really their cousins (1 Chr.
23:21–22).

The terms "brothers," "brother," and "sister" did
not refer only to close relatives. Sometimes they
meant kinsmen (Deut. 23:7; Neh. 5:7; Jer. 34:9),
as in the reference to the forty-two "brethren" of
King Azariah (2 Kgs. 10:13–14)

Mary neva has any other child n thus Jesus has no Brothers or sisters as potray by sum pastors through their myopic sight of scriptural knowledge.

Proud Catholic!!!

1You seem to ignore the context of my first bolded sentence.
Because if brothers is unrelated to Jesus in that verse , then we can also claim that Mary isn't related to Jesus.

2. Looking critically at that verse you know that it wasn't just referring to "brothers" in general sense,
but it gave specific examples.

3.You totally ignored Mathew 1:25 , which proves that Joseph had "marital" relations with Mary after the birtyh of Jesus.
Should we even agree that Mary has no other children, her having marital relations with Joseph disproves her acclaimed
virginity.

SSPX:
Stop wondering you heretic dullard, Mary is the MOTHER OF Jesuse Daughter of God the Father and Spoues of Holy spirit so she divinely connected and all grace we receive from God pass through her hand that is why she is full of Grace.

u can only get to the Father (God) through his Son Jesus Christ

May God forgive whoever initiated this topic because the person does not know the gravity of the sin he or she just comited . First of all I would have recommended Niaraland to ban such person for life from posting to this medium; but be it as it may, I wish to advise that religious matters should not be discussed here. Having said all that it will be a deservice to my conscience to quit without saying one or two things concerning the issue raised. First of all note that Catholics honour Mary and as such do not worship her. If you are conversant with the commandments of God you will recall that God asked us to honour our father and mother ; therefore, it will amount to speaking from both sides of the mouth if the same God can turn back to say we should not honour Mary as you purport. I will rather attribute your lack of clear understanding of the passage to maybe your poor understanding of the old fashioned words used in the passage. Therefore, it is pertinent to use basic english for your clearer understanding. The Basic English Version of the Bible reads : Luke: 11. 27. And it came about that when he said these things, a certain woman among the people said in a loud voice, Happy is the body which gave you birth, and the breasts from which you took milk. 28. But he said, More happy are they who give hearing to the word of God and keep it. From this passage, God did not oppose what the woman said rather added that more happy are they who give hearing to the word of God and keep it of which Mary is the leader as exemplified in the scenarios that lead to the giving birth to the Christ Jesus. Going back to the version you used, 'yea' as used was used in affirmative and in agreement ; I therefore, wonder why your understanding is in the contrary. THANK YOU ALL.

There is really nothing in kneeling/prostrating or even worshiping the mother of God she deserves it but Jesus is not God he is a prophet like Abraham Moses ND co so why worship man

An2elect2:


1. You are "pro atheism", i get.

2.I believe in God, and if there is anything i need to know about how everything came about, i will look to the bible for explanation. And since i believe in its authenticity, anything contradictory or even close but not accurate would fall flat as hogwash.

Thanks.

1. Where did you get that from ?

2. You know the major aim of the bible is not to explain how things came about but to teach how to live life successfully and prepare for eternity.
So , very curious minds can't get their answers exclusively from the bible , they need to
excercise their intellect to answer some thoughts provoking questions even though the answers
might be incomplete.

God used Mary as a vessel ... that doesn't mean.. u should worship Mary.. Mary fought for her salvation like the rest of the good people in the Bible.. he simply used her and blessed her.. so Mary was just a mortal being.. thank you

charlsecy:

I do not subscribe to the idea of that prayer even though I am a Catholic. I think all requests for divine protection should be directed to the Living GOD alone.

@bolded what is it exactly that makes you a Catholic?

In that case, you provide the person with some information that saves their life. That is purely a physical act. Now see, assuming the name of the person who provided the life-saving information was James, would you now start saying in your prayers, "Oh James, despise not my petitions in my necessities, but deliver me always from all dangers?" How about millions of people praying to James for protection or deliverance from all dangers? If one billion Catholics ask Mary for protection, how could she respond to each and every of the requests?

The "We Fly To Your Patronage" prayer seeks both physical and spiritual protection from Mary. We might seek physical protection from a human as in the case of police bodyguards or the use of a vigilante group, but request for spiritual protection should be directed to Almighty GOD alone. If you ask Mary, instead of GOD, for deliverance, that should amount to idolatry, to the best of my knowledge.

I think you are trying too hard to justify what I think even you know is unBiblical just for the sake of "winning an argument." Certain words in the "We Fly To Your Patronage" prayer should arouse our curiosity. Such words clearly negate the Word of GOD at Psalm 7: 1, 1 Thessalonians 1: 10, 2 Timothy 4: 18, Luke 1:47, among others.

O Lord, my God, I come to you for protection; rescue me and save me from all who pursue me; Psalm 7: 1 (GNT).

And to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come; 1 Thessalonians 1: 10 (NKJV)

And the Lord will rescue me from all evil and take me safely into his heavenly Kingdom. To him be the glory forever and ever! Amen; 2 Timothy 4: 18 (GNT)

If you ignore these Biblical truths and say Mary is your deliverer, I don't have much to say again!

Finally, in Luke 1:47, Mary sang that GOD is her saviour. Doesn't that show Mary herself was looking up to GOD for deliverance? Shouldn't we imitate Mary by calling on GOD alone for deliverance and/or protection from all dangers?

I honestly don't get your point here.

I don't think the Bible records her death just like many others. There are many characters in the Bible whose end the Bible says nothing about. Perhaps, that's not the interest of the Word of GOD.

I am a Catholic and Catholics don't base their doctrinal teachings on the bible alone but on both the bible and the traditions of the church. The bible indeed does not mention anything of Mary's death like it didn't of many other characters in the bible. But the bible did mention of other characters who indeed never met their end and that to me is proof that it is indeed possible for God in his infinite power to prevent human's from seeing death. If you want my reason why I believe mary indeed never saw death I am more than willing to share that with you but to state definitely that Mary is dead without proof seems to me to be a complete fallacy.

Mary indeed, is blessed and gracious, but we shouldn't pray to her for deliverance.


You should understand the difference between physical death and spiritual (eternal) death.

You my friend are the who doesn't seem to understand the difference between the two.

Please read patiently:
"And when they saw him, they were. Amazed: and his mother said unto him, son, why has thou thus dealt with us? Behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. And he said unto them, how is it that ye sought me? Wist ye not that I must be about my father's business? And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them" (Luke 2:48-50).
"Then one said unto him, behold thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, who is my mother? And who are my brethren? ... Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever will do the will of my father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother" (Matt. 12:47-50).
"And when he saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he said unto his mother, woman, behold thy son! Then said he to the disciple, behold thy mother!" (John 19:26-27).
"These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his bretheren" (Acts 1:14).
"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed" (Gal. 1:8-9; Rev. 22:18-19).
Not my words. God bless you.

Tallesty1:
This short prayer says otherwise.




We fly to thy patronage, O holy Mother of God; despise not our petitions in our necessities, but deliver us always from all dangers, O glorious and blessed Virgin. Amen.

I wonder who gave her such power.

all d prayers re for her intercession