KunleOshob:

Well this your so called men of God are always mis-appropriating God's money and the bible already warned us to be discerning about preachers that make up stories to get our money. If they claim to be men of God and they are not living according to the standards set out in the bible they have already Judged themselves. we are just commenting.

The Bible says that Satan is the accuser of the brethren

Keep on helping him expedite his job

.

tpia:

does this cover regular brethren or is it only when the upper echelon brethren are being accused, that these scriptures apply?

who cares about regular brethren?

What have they done to u David?

@ all 
see kobojunkie's defence for his idol's shameless purchase

'God never said it is MORALLY wrong to buy a jet, not once is that mentioned in the bible.

This one worse pass drug addiction

@ all I said

Also even where people are free to donate FREELY to charities, it is still goverment perogative to monitor the spending pattern of such charities that it is not misapplied. But yes this is religion and the goverment is handicapped b'cos of our recent politics and history.

Kobojunkie said

Misapplied?? You mean if a church asks people to donate money to support the causes of the church, it is “misapplied” when the church buys a jet and so government should step in? If I was the church, I would sue the government for all it has at that point for trying to tell the church what it can or cannot do when it is well within its rights to buy a jet.
Going by laws that exist for non-profits in Nigeria, it is not the case that the government is handicapped here. Not at all. As long as the purchase was made in the name of the church and for the church, it is legit, and I don’t understand why you choose to bring the government in here to somehow save the people from their own free right to donate to a cause no matter how ridiculous it may seem to you.

How, forumites can one conclude from my statement above that i implied goverment needs to arrest or prosecute anyone? except of course we have 1-dimensional thinker carrying out the analysis

But why Nigeria people don't ask questions, how dose he a pastor got the money because I know that most of them pastors doesn't work and even when they do he, can not earned more than 500,000N a month X 12 = 6M a year X 70 years = 420M this is if he start working the day he was born and if he is not 70 he has received his salaries in advance to 70, all together his worth is 420M any thing more than this he must explain how he got it, other wards if he got those money by making hell-fire fear talk to the people who can not asked him a question because of been afraid of going to hell-fire and then in return  contribute their hard earning Naira  to him for nothing absolutely for nothing then he must be charge with fraud and mass-bran-damaging, other wards mass laughter because when the bran is damaged all is gone, also rendering the nation useless.

we must not wait for others sins to caught them up but to bring them to their senses before our nation is finished, God made every thing and did not need any body's help, talk of those heartless that called themselves pastors and Imams still continue to use fear and tricky to collect people's money and mes with their feelings, Heaven is free just do good to others ( love ) otherwise those guys will continue to have reason to decisive you, by this, that what to kill you or your mother is a witch, when you love you are not afraid and nothing either will happen to you, note their don't know God for that they don't care and that's why they like money, money, money, even it is said that money is the root of evil they the pastors like it more than any thing, more than those they call sinners, more than the simple wards of God love, they like woman and power to manipulate others, if you wish take the freedom which God has giving to you as a human being and give it to them I promise they will be very glad to have it and controls you like an animal just as the masters of it all are in control today.

Why-me-why-not-me

Ovamboland:

@ all ,see kobojunkie's defence for his idol's shameless purchase

This one worse pass drug addiction

If you were close to being minutely intelligent, you would realize from reading my posts so far that I am not offering him any defense but actually considering the rights of people here since the only way the man could have been able to afford that jet (and since we have no record of him being involved in the bribery and corruption that mars that country) is through donations from private individuals, which you and I have no proof of as being illegal. So all you have done is try really hard to paint the man black and manufacture deluded ideas of people being addicted just because you cannot handle that some may actually not agree with you when it comes to how they spend their own money.
May I ask that you actually start thinking like a Christian in your dealings with others, as that to me is the biggest problem we have in Christianity when Nigerians are concerned? We have this need to REDEFINE it all according to how we perceive things, and not according to how it really is stated that we should.

Ovamboland:

@ all I said
Kobojunkie said
How, forumites can one conclude from my statement above that i implied goverment needs to arrest or prosecute anyone? except of course we have 1-dimensional thinker carrying out the analysis

Actually, that is what you stated above. Bringing Government into a church to decide how much people can donate and how much the church can use of that money is despicable and screams insecurity. People have a RIGHT; I would urge that you learn to respect that right, even when you do not agree with it.
Of course Government will arrest in a case where funds are ACTUALLY misused. You have provided ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF that this fund was misused in purchase of this Jet, so I don’t understand why you continue to claim you are justified in claiming government needs to come in to arrest in this case.
Here is something the bible says that many of us overlook in our rash judgments. The bible says “JUDGE RIGHTEOUS JUDGEMENTS”. If you can not

1) Verify that this purchase was illicit as you claim

2) If you cannot verify that the people did not donate the money of their own free will to the organization for organizational use

3) If you cannot verify that the claims you have made so far about the church and the members are true

How righteous have you been in your judgment of this case based solely on the article you read in the newspapers?? Now, I am guessing you are even a Christian as you earlier claimed, if not, please ignore all I have said so far as I doubt it would make any sense to you then.

Kobojunkie:

We have this need to REDEFINE it all according to how we perceive things, and not according to how it really is stated that we should.

Please name one church in Nigeria today that is practising christianity the way the apostles did when they first stated the church.

KunleOshob:

Please name one church in Nigeria today that is practising christianity the way the apostles did when they first stated the church.

Name one bible verse that tells you that christianity has to be practised exactly how it was 2000 years ago. I mean caves and all.  Even David himself did not practise it how the apostles did. I am not even in Nigeria but can tell that Christianity, worldwide, is not exactly as it used to be back during the days of Paul when the Christians had to hide, and had people who fed and gave them money for their feeding and their journey as well as a place to rest their heads on their journeys.

If you demand the churches apply it as it used to 2000 years ago, are you willing to play your own part? Are you willing to after paying your tithe ensure that the pastor and his family are fed and have a roof over their heads? Are you willing to house Christians passing by your area for free? Are you willing to do all you can to make sure that the gospel is spread or are you just ranting and throwing a fit because a pastor of some mega church makes huge purchases that your mind can not handle but feel it is your place to castigate him, without ensuring you have facts, even when you did not donate a DIME to that purchase?

Kobojunkie:

Name one bible verse that tells you that christianity has to be practised exactly how it was 2000 years ago. I mean caves and all. Even David himself did not practise it how the apostles did.

I am just beginning to understand your ignorance here, david was not a christian. Christianity did not start until after the death of christ.

Romans 16:17-18:
17 And now I make one more appeal, my dear brothers and sisters. Watch out for people who cause divisions and upset people’s faith by teaching things contrary to what you have been taught. Stay away from them. 18 Such people are not serving Christ our Lord; they are serving their own personal interests. By smooth talk and glowing words they deceive innocent people. The above passage makes it clear that christianity should be practised the way the apostles taught it cos they learnt first hand from the master himselfand your so called pastors learn from this same bible which there works are recorded in

Arrgh!!! The famous " I KNOW WHAT IT MEANS TO BE CHRISTIAN BECAUSE I SAY SO" argument !!! You can continue this without me then. I am not really bothered much cause I know how some of you Nigerian Christians act as if holiness starts and ends with you and the verses you pick and choose to define it. You have nice life now!!! OK!! lol

1 Timothy 6:10-11:
10 For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. And some people, craving money, have wandered from the true faith and pierced themselves with many sorrows.
  11 But you, Timothy, are a man of God; so run from all these evil things. Pursue righteousness and a godly life, along with faith, love, perseverance, and gentleness.

Men of God in the bible were warned to run away from the love of money, i wonder if buying a private jet does not translate to love for money and material acquisitions. It is quite evident that these men that claim to be men of god love money so much and this leads to evil.

Woah men that is some news
am i excited?
So the gospel can now be spread better. This is big and i hope it stirs faith in others to do same for the sake of the gospel.

KunleOshob:

Please name one church in Nigeria today that is practising christianity the way the apostles did when they first stated the church.

Kobojunkie:

Name one bible verse that tells you that christianity has to be practised exactly how it was 2000 years ago. I mean caves and all.  Even David himself did not practise it how the apostles did. I am not even in Nigeria but can tell that Christianity, worldwide, is not exactly as it used to be back during the days of Paul when the Christians had to hide, and had people who fed and gave them money for their feeding and their journey as well as a place to rest their heads on their journeys.

I'll name 2.

So then, brothers, stand firm, and cling to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.

Thessalonians, 2, 15

Jesus therefore said to those of the Jews who had now believed in Him, "As for you,
if you hold fast to my teaching, then you are truly my disciples; ,

John 8, 31

That christians met in caves was due to the circumstances of oppression not because meeting in caves was an essential practice of christianity. What is an essential practice of Christian fellowship is the sharing of a meal amongst the faithful.  This was the instructions laid down by Jesus.  'Do this as often as you drink it . . '.  This was the practice of christian fellowship.  Apart from churches that practice the Eucharist all those other churches are not practicing christianity.  Gbam!! I've said it.  


Acts2:42
And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.

Acts2:46
And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they partook of food with glad and generous hearts,

Even that Eucharist is a cop out because all you get is a little wafer and a sip of wine.

yet back in the days the eucharist was such that some could actually end up drunk.  I'm not saying that we should turn fellowship into a riotous party but Paul had stern words to say about people getting carried away like this.


Cor11:20-22
When you meet together, it is not the Lord's supper that you eat.  For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal, and one is hungry and another is drunk.  What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing?  What shall I say to you?  Shall I commend you in this? No.  I will not.  

We find even in the 2nd century that coming together to eat was the central practice.  In one of the first mentions of christianity from a non christian source Pliny describes what he has learned about christian practice to the Emperor trajan.  He says:

They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food--but ordinary and innocent food.

You can find the full letter here:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/pliny.html

So you see, there is hardly any churches today that are doing anything that is even remotely christian.  At least the catholics still have mass.  But the pentecostals are totally lost.

what happened to charity? ehn! members of the congregation dey wear one particular burial cloth dey attend service and church dey buy jet?! i never even talk of the welfare of the local community sef. people situation no dey improve.
look, if not for the terrible state of the government, i for propose taxing some of these churches at the corporate band because that is what they are - thriving institutions. they can no longer be classed as non-profit charitable organisations.

What Charity?  Pastor don Share all the Sharity amongst themselves, nothing left for the congregation.

Na now you just dey enter dey talk about sharity.

u don see am na. lol.

Actually @PastorAIO, those verses do not prove that we have to do it EXACTLY as they did it back 2000 years ago, but that we cling to tradition. It is possible to live in the year 2009, with technology, a jet, and all for your church and still cling to traditions. Not sure if the meaning ELUDES you, or something but it is possible and it happens all over the world each day. Even muslims are able to cling to the traditions of islam in their daily lives even as they enjoy their mercedes benz, businesses and what not. But hey, I am used to the way people interprete things according to their way without understanding how even their own lives contradict the meaning they give those words just so they can CONDEMN another. 

Kobojunkie:

Actually @PastorAIO, those verses do not prove that we have to do it EXACTLY as they did it back 2000 years ago, but that we cling to tradition. It is possible to live in the year 2009, with technology, a jet, and all for your church and still cling to traditions. Not sure if the meaning ELUDES you, or something but it is possible and it happens all over the world each day. Even muslims are able to cling to the traditions of islam in their daily lives even as they enjoy their mercedes benz, businesses and what not. But hey, I am used to the way people interprete things according to their way without understanding how even their own lives contradict the meaning they give those words just so they can CONDEMN another. 

I guess you'll just have to tell me what practices you consider to be essential to the christian tradition.

I don't know why you guys are crying more than the bereaved. If Redeem can afford a private jet, let them get one. Is it not their money?. If you did contribute to the church and feel that your money is being mismanaged, do write to their head office and demand for  a refund.

I like to believe your brain was on a long vacation that is why you cant recall the likes of OBJ, Atiku, James Ibori going to redeem camp before and during the third term saga, seeking the endorsement of a fellow thief

oluwdashmi:

@kunleoshob
I just pray you don't study the bible in vain cos you use it against pastors all the time.

Hosea 6:9:

9 Priests form bands of robbers,
waiting in ambush for their victims.

2 Peter 2:1-3:
The Danger of False Teachers
1 But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them. In this way, they will bring sudden destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their evil teaching and shameful immorality. And because of these teachers, the way of truth will be slandered. 3 In their greed they will make up clever lies to get hold of your money. But God condemned them long ago, and their destruction will not be delayed.

The false men of god/prophets we were warned about in the bible abound to day especially in the penticostal movement who use God's name to make money.

oluwdashmi:

From your responses so far, it shows you don't practise what you study cos yu like engaging in so much argument or haven't you studied the bible to that extent?

My diasgreement and arguements against these false doctrines as sound biblcal bases and i draw my inspiration from the word and spirit of God contrary to what you and our mordern day pharisees(pastors) would like people to believe

1 John 4:1-6:

1 John 4
Discerning False Prophets
1 Dear friends, do not believe everyone who claims to speak by the Spirit. You must test them to see if the spirit they have comes from God. For there are many false prophets in the world.

5 Those people belong to this world, so they speak from the world’s viewpoint, and the world listens to them. 6 But we belong to God, and those who know God listen to us. If they do not belong to God, they do not listen to us. That is how we know if someone has the Spirit of truth or the spirit of deception.

Now think who as the spirit of decption, is it me who preaches that we give to the poor as Jesus christ directed or is it the false prophets the bible warned us about would make up clever lies(tithes) to get hold of our money and use it for exotic, flamboyant and unGodly lifestyle.

At the end of the day This aircraft has increased in value , as it was brought when dollar was about N145. Now dollar is N200. Thank God for the men of God. That was a good buy

How is having a jet against the bible in itself?

If the church feels owning a jet is more beneficial for evangelism/church growth activities compared to chartering aircraft or flying commercially, then what is all the noise about?

Charity? RCCG is heavily involved in charity with motherless babies' homes amongst others - must they be involved in charity ALONE to prove their Christianity

Yes the monetary value of a jet is immense, but does that mean it is not the correct decision?

KunleOshob:

Men of God in the bible were warned to run away from the love of money, i wonder if buying a private jet does not translate to love for money and material acquisitions. It is quite evident that these men that claim to be men of god love money so much and this leads to evil.

Please show us how this is a 'love of money'. The best you can say is that, in YOUR OWN OPINION, these funds might have been better utilised. You are fully entitled to that opinion.

A Jet is a means of transport, nothing more. If buying a car is not 'love of money and material acquisitions' then how is a jet equivalent to that?

Why should Adeboye own or drive a car when there are poor people walking to church? Why should Adeboye eat food worth $20 when people can't afford $1? Why should Adeboye buy a microphone worth $100 when people cannot eat? Isn't food more important than a microphone?

Why did Jesus ride on a donkey instead of walking when that poor donkey could be used to carry a disabled person into Jerusalem?

Without evidence of how much time/money is spent on transportation either by road or air, and how much time/money will be saved or expended on this jet, you are simply making an emotional argument not based on fact.

@Debosky,

Remember the rich young man that went to meet Jesus on how he could make heaven and Jesus told him to go and sell all his belonging give it to the poor and follow him.

The love of money that left Eununch to see the truth and avoid it. His redemption camp is now the Jamboree for all corrupt politicians and business execs and heavily jazzed traditional rulers

So, kini big deal?

dayokanu:


Remember the rich young man that went to meet Jesus on how he could make heaven and Jesus told him to go and sell all his belonging give it to the poor and follow him.

The love of money that left Eununch to see the truth and avoid it. His redemption camp is now the Jamboree for all corrupt politicians and business execs and heavily jazzed traditional rulers

If you feel the redemption camp is for for Adeboye that means you as a person has the power to forgive sins and answer prayers.

Moreover it is not for anyone of you to judge leave him for God who called him.

i hope the world wont read all this shameless things happening in nigeria.
a country where 40 million youths are un employed
a country where average nigeria live under a dollar per day
a country where there is not power supply
a country owing around 40 billion naira
a country where there is no adequate water supply
a country where there is no good roads
a country where education is degenerating

this is the same country where a pastor can buy a jet and go on a trip for 15,ooo pounds.if this is the way christianity is all around the world then we need to think.

dejiariyo:

i hope the world wont read all this shameless things happening in nigeria.
a country where 40 million youths are un employed
a country where average nigeria live under a dollar per day
a country where there is not power supply
a country owing around 40 billion naira
a country where there is no adequate water supply
a country where there is no good roads
a country where education is degenerating

this is the same country where a pastor can buy a jet and go on a trip for 15,ooo pounds.if this is the way christianity is all around the world then we need to think.

keep thinking while others are flying all you who still belive that Christianity is poverty.

keep thinking while others are flying all you who still belive that Christianity is poverty.