1 Corinthians 14:34,35 "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church."


1 Timothy 2:11,12 "Let a woman learn in silence with all submission.
And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence."

Certainly it seems that these passages enjoin women to “keep silent in the churches” and “learn in silence.” Paul even goes on to argue that he does not “permit a woman to teach” or to have authority over a man. Who could deny the clarity of these plain words?


One of the things I have learned over the years is that “a text without a context is a pretext.” It is a basic hermeneutical principle that, to be properly interpreted, passages must be considered in their immediate context, in their historical context, and in the context of the entirety of Scripture.

The Greek of 1 Corinthians 14:34, 35 by Dr. Spiros Zodhiates:

Dr. Spiros Zodhiates. Dr. Zodhiates is a native Greek and his work is very impressive. His notes deals with the possibility that perhaps many people have been misreading and misinterpreting 1 Corinthians 14:34,35. In his notes on this passage, he remarked:


"Under no circumstances does the injunction of Paul in 1 Cor. 14:34 indicate that women should not utter a word at any time during the church service…Furthermore, the word gunaikes (in v. 34) should not be translated “women” in its generic sense, but as “wives.” It is wives who should submit (hupotassomai,) to their own husbands (andras, v. 35). The whole argument is not the subjection of women to men in general, but of wives to their own husbands in the family unit as ordained by God."

Indeed, in Ephesians 5:22, where we find the admonition “Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord,” the Greek words translated as “wives” and “husbands” are the same as the words normally translated as “women” and “husbands” in 1 Corinthians 14:34,35. So the question naturally follows as to why we have the same Greek word translated one way (“wives” in Ephesians 5:22), but translated a different way (generically “women”) in 1 Corinthians 14:34.

The Greek of 1 Timothy 2:11,12 by Dr. Zodhiates:

After looking into the Greek of 1 Corinthians 14:34 and finding that it may have been mistranslated, he looks into the Greek of 1 Timothy 2:11,12. Again, Dr. Zodhiates made this interesting point:


Observe 1 Tim. 2:11. It does not say women but a woman, and better still, a wife. The word in Greek is gune, which indicates either a woman generically speaking or a wife, depending on the context. In this instance, since it stands in apposition to the word andros (the genitive singular of aner here meaning only “husband” and not “man” generically, 435), it must be translated as “a wife.” It is because of the mistranslations of these passages that the Christian world has had so much difficulty in understanding the proper position of a woman in the Christian Church…Verse 12 is again poorly translated in the K.J.V. It should not be “But I suffer not a woman to teach,” but “I suffer not a wife….”

He presupposes that public discussions during the services are the ordinary practice at Corinth, and he counsels that women keep silence at such times. Let them ask their husbands at home. Doubtless Paul does not mean to deny to women all opportunities for speaking under the impulses of inspiration (11:5, 13) or to imply that any speech by women in the church is shameful.

The point is that in the Church teaching is an exercise of authority, and for a woman to exercise authority over a man is to reverse the divine order of the family. Possibly “the man” is here her husband. The true subordination of women to men is in the family, not in the State or the Church. It is not that men in the mass are to command women in the mass, but that the man is to bear rule in his own house.

Some examples of women preachers in the New Testament:

# Junia and Andronicus (who may have been husband and wife) were members of the church in Rome; they may even have been the founders of the church there. Paul sends greetings to them in Romans 16:7 and speaks warmly of them, mentioning that he is relatives of them (or fellow Jews), and that they had become Christians before he did. Andronicus and Junia had suffered persecution because of their faith and at some point had been fellow prisoners with Paul. Paul also states that Andronicus and Junia were “outstanding among the apostles”. This is a wonderful commendation coming from someone who was himself an outstanding apostle.

#Philip’s daughters were highly respected female prophets and leaders in the early church, as was Ammia of the church in Philadelphia, and Quadratus of Athens. (Acts 21:9)

#Evangelists were men and women who preached the gospel of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Euodia and Syntyche of Philippi were coworkers of Paul, and he wrote that the women “contended at my side for the cause of the gospel” (Phil. 4:2-3). This is similar to what Paul says about Timothy in the same letter: that he had served with him “in the gospel”.

#There are several women in the New Testament who functioned as pastor-teachers. Priscilla, another close friend and coworker of Paul, was one of them. Together with her husband Aquila she taught the already learned and eloquent Apollos “the way of God” (i.e. theology) more accurately (Acts 18:24-26).

In the more reliable, earlier Greek manuscripts, Priscilla’s name appears first in four of the six mentions of this couple. This may denote that Priscilla’s ministry was more prominent than her husband’s, or it may indicate that she had a higher social status than Aquila.

And so many More.

This goes to prove that women preachers are supported by the scriptures, but because of the mistranslation of the original greek, many have gone into error by forbidden the ministry of women in the church.

The whole point once again is that the wife of the man heading a church should never usurp authority but be submissive to the leadership of her own husband.

your analogy does not follow if you are using the wife/woman stand.

The examples you have at the end are of women who were filled with the word of God, no account in the scriptures shows the stood up to speak.

Jesus Christ who is even the ultimate example didn't choose a female disciple, correct me if am wrong as no female elders, apostles were female in the bible.


let us speak where the bible speaks and be silent where the bible is silent.

Women preachers? I don't think that's any proof

[size=15pt]#SUGARBEE[/size]

INTROVERT:
your analogy does not follow if you are using the wife/woman stand.

The examples you have at the end are of women who were filled with the word of God, no account in the scriptures shows the stood up to speak.

Jesus Christ who is even the ultimate example didn't choose a female disciple, correct me if am wrong as no female elders, apostles were female in the bible.


let us speak where the bible speaks and be silent where the bible is silent.

Then you didn't understand the message that was passed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lr6sMxUSD88
^{by Derek Walker}

@INTROVERT @SUGARBEE - this is complementing some parts in Jeromejnr's original post

[size=18pt]1 Corinthians 14:34-35:
Should Women be Silent in Church?[/size]

[size=16pt]VIDEO'S TRANSCRIPT:[/size]
One controversy concerns the role of women in church ministry. One scripture in particular seems to exclude women from any public ministry:

'Let your women keep SILENT in the churches,
for it is NOT PERMITTED FOR THEM TO SPEAK;
but they are commanded to be under obedience,
as THE LAW also SAYS.
And IF they want to learn something,
let them ask their own husbands at home,
for it is SHAMEFUL FOR WOMEN TO SPEAK IN CHURCH.'
(1 Corinthians 14:34,35)

Some would explain this away as a special command to the unruly women at Corinth to straighten-up, rather than a general command to all women everywhere. But if we treat one scripture this way, what is to stop us treating every scripture this way? Surely the New Testament is written for the whole church.

The subject of the passage is: 'THE WOMEN IN THE CHURCHES (plural)'. This means-'all women.' Moreover the command is based on 'the law' which means it applies to all, rather than just to those in a particular culture or time.

Let us consider what this passage is literally saying. The word for 'silent' does not mean 'quiet' Thus it is not saying that women should have a quiet (meek) spirit. The word translated 'silent' means no word can be spoken!

It is saying WOMEN MUST BE (completely) SILENT IN CHURCH. This doesn't just disqualify them from teaching but also from testifying, praying, prophesing and moving in the gifts of the Spirit-the latter being the context of these verses (1 Cor 12:1)

The First Problem with this passage, is that it contradicts Paul's other teaching in this book.
For he says women may pray and prophesy in church (1 Cor 11:3-5).
In 1Corinthians 12, especially in v13-27 he teaches that all members of the church (men and women), are members of the body and thus have a function in the body working in co-ordination with each other, and so we can all be used in the gifts and ministries of the Spirit.

So, he says: 'if ALL (men and women) prophesy' (1 Cor 14:24)
'When you come together, EVERY ONE (men and women) of you has a psalm, has a doctrine, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation.' (v26)
'You may ALL prophesy one by one.' (v31)

So, why would he say 3 verses later that all women must be silent in church? Is he being doubleminded?
So the first problem is that in the middle of encouraging everyone to move out in ministry, he is telling all women to be silent!

This also contradicts the spirit of the New-Testament with Jesus treating women with honour, with the churches set free from all Jewish traditions (Acts15), with full equality in the church (Gal 3:28) and with the Spirit poured upon all flesh (male and female) to give power for ministry (Acts 1:8, 2:4,16-18)

A Second Problem is the discouragement upon women from even learning:
'and IF THEY WANT TO LEARN.' The tone of this is condescending to women, that not only should they not speak, it is optional for them to learn the Word (it is even mildly frowned upon as if it were not really their place.) This is clearly in contradiction to the New Testament teaching for women and contrasts with what Paul said in 1Timothy 2:11: 'LET a woman learn.' Here he encourages women to study the Word. Here he speaks against those who would discourage them.

A Third Problem is the AUTHORITY used:
'IT IS NOT PERMITTED FOR THEM TO SPEAK ..AS THE LAW ALSO SAYS.'

Which Law is this? There are 4 possibilities:
(1) The Old Testament Scripture. (The Law of Moses)
It is usually referred to by 'It is written' (1 Cor 1:19,31; 3:19,20; 4:6; 9:9; 10:11, 14:21; 15:45,51)

(2) The Teaching of Jesus (1 Cor 7:10).

(3) The Apostolic Teaching and Tradition
-that which Paul and others received by revelation from the Lord (1 Cor 7:12) Paul received special new revelations to meet the needs of a new situation (the Church Age where many Gentiles were becoming believers on an equal footing with the Jews). For example: 1 Cor 2:10-13,16; 4:1,15-17, 7:6,10,12,17,25; 11:1,2,16,17, 23; 14:36,37; 15:1,3

(4) The Oral Law of the Jews (later written as the Talmud)- the interpretation of Moses' Law by the Scribes and Pharisees. It is followed by the Orthodox Jews to this day as of equal authority to the Bible. They falsely claimed it was passed down from Moses by word of mouth. Jesus clashed with Pharisees over this law. He rejected it and came against it's legalistic spirit (Matt15:3, Mark7:3).

Now when 1 Cor 14:34,35 refers to a law of silence for women, it couldn't be:
(1) because there's no such law in the Old-Testament and he would say 'it is written';
neither is it found in the Gospels (2).
Neither is it (3) because it is clearly a pre-existing law.
Therefore by a process of elimination it must be (4) The Jewish Oral Law (the laws of the Pharisees)

This is confirmed by the phrase: 'As also SAYS the Law.' - a reference to the ORAL law rather than the WRITTEN law (scripture).
(see also Matt 5:21,27,31, 33,38,43)

Also, we know this because it agrees completely with the Talmud and applies to Orthodox synagogues today. The service is for men only. Women are discouraged from even learning, but are sometimes allowed to watch from the gallery, for their place is at home not with things too high for them! And it would be shameful for them to speak in a meeting.

TALMUDIC QUOTES illustrate this:
A Jewish Prayer:'Praise God He hasn't created me a gentile, a woman or an ignorant man.'
'The woman, says the law, is in all things inferior to the man.'
Only men could speak in public (Beraktoth 4,36; Mishnah Aboth 1,5)
No woman could give a testimony or conduct business. (Mishnah Shabbath 4,1)

Women were viewed with disregard and repression, and the Talmud contains many distasteful insults of women's character. They were to be avoided. They were not required to know or fulfil the law and so few were learned.

One said: 'May the words of the Torah be burned rather than be given to women.'
In public worship they were segregated and silenced and so had to ask questions of their husbands at home.

Clearly the writer of 1 Cor 14:34,35 reflected this Pharisaical attitude to women and used this Jewish Law to support his views.

So why would Paul say something that stands in contradiction to the immediate context and the rest of the New Testament? Why would he establish this teaching on Jewish Laws that elsewhere, both he and Jesus rejected?

The simple answer is these verses are not Paul's teaching!
Paul's letters are written in response church situations. 1 Corinthians is the most responsive of them all. Paul had received reports about what was going on (1:11, 5:1, 6:1,8 ), and the church had sent a letter to Paul with many questions (7:1,8,10,12,25; 8:1,4; 12:1; 16:1). There was disunity (1:10-12,3:3). In particular there were 2 groups of people saved from different backgrounds disputing -Jews who tended toward legalism, and Greeks who tended toward license. Paul goes through the issues and questions raised one by one.

Examples of when Paul is clearly responding to what one group has said are 6:15-20 (Greeks); 9:1-11; 11:1-16 (Jews) and 15:12,35,36.

Sometimes he refers what they are saying and then he answers them -e.g.1 Cor 4:8: 'You are already full! You are already rich! You have reigned as kings without us.' (this is what some of them had claimed) --'and indeed I wish you did reign, that we might also reign with you.' (Paul's answer - see also 4:10)

Sometimes he even quotes what they say and then answers them. The problem is that there are no punctuation or quote marks in the Greek and the translators often miss them out.

Some examples of this, are when he responds to the 'loose' Greeks as in 6:12,13:
(You say) 'All things are lawful for me.'
(I Paul) say: 'but all things are not helpful.'
(You say) 'All things are lawful for me.'
(I Paul) say: 'but I will not be brought under the power of any.'
(You say) 'Food is for the stomach and the stomach for foods.'
(I Paul) say: 'but God will destroy both it and them.'
We see the same in 10:23,24.

In questions about idols Paul challenges those who pride themselves in their knowledge but who do not hold it in love. (8:1-3) 8:4: 'We know that -'an idol is nothing in the world and that there is but one God' (again he quotes their words (their knowledge) before he answers as confirmed in v10,11.

Other examples are when he responds to the 'legalistic Jews', 7:1:
'Now concerning what you wrote to me,
(some of you said) 'It is good for a man not to touch a woman.'
(But I Paul say) 'Nevertheless because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife...'

Now we can understand what is happening in 1 Cor 14:34,35.
Paul is quoting what some Jewish converts to Christ, had written in a letter to Paul, complaining about women being involved in church services. Although they were saved they were used to male-dominated synagogue - worship and so found the equality of women in church life hard to take.

They were saying: 'Paul, these women are prophesying, praying out loud, speaking in tongues. The Oral law says it's shameful for a woman to speak in public. Tell them to shut-up!'

So as Paul is teaching on every member participating in church services, it is the natural place for him to deal with their objection. So he quotes what they say: 'Let your women keep silent in the churches, for it is not permitted for them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home, for it is shameful for women to speak in church' (v34,35)

Then he answers them: 'What, came the word of God out from you? or came it to you only? If any think himself a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things I write to you (not the Talmud) are the commandments of the Lord (the true authority) But if any (choose to be) be ignorant, let him be ignorant.' (v36-38) Paul replies by asserting his apostolic authority above the Talmud.

This also explains why these verses come out of the blue, interrupting the flow of thought, which is picked up again in v39,40: 'Therefore brethren, covet to prophesy and do not forbid to speak with tongues.'

The placement of v34,35 in the passage as a clear interruption and marked contrast to what Paul is teaching, serves to separate them from Paul's own views.

We conclude that Paul isn't silencing women, rather the opposite!

Those who are too quick to agree with v34,35 have unwittingly submitted to an unchristian pharisaical spirit

https://www.nairaland.com/2562744/opinion-women-preaching-church-not/4#37488867

@MuttleyLaff

Good thing you were able to expantiate it the more.

I wanted to point out that the passage actually came from something the Jews call the Halakhah. Were questions were written and sent to Paul and He would reply.

The Part you quoted were he says "What! Did the word of God come to you only....." Was his reply to the questions concerning women silence in the church.

Because they were trying to follow the old Jewish laws. I.e the Talmud.

1 Timothy 2:8-13New International Version (NIV)

8 Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing. 9 I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

11 A woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[b] she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.

Does it even remotely appear like Paul is quoting confused Jews who are trying to impose their Jewry in congregations here?

Mutleylaff, don't be carried away by fancy but hollow arguments

Jeromejnr:

The point is that in the Church teaching is an exercise of authority, and for a woman to exercise authority over a man is to reverse the divine order of the family. Possibly “the man” is here her husband. The true subordination of women to men is in the family, not in the State or the Church. It is not that men in the mass are to command women in the mass, but that the man is to bear rule in his own house.

One needs to examine the logical conclusion of their exegesis or eisegesis in his case.

Since 'teaching is exercise of authority, and for a woman to exercise authority is to reverse the divine order of the family', women did not teach in public worship. This is exactly what that verse is saying.

That there were coworkers means whatever they did, they never taught men. Ministry is more than teaching in other words

[size=3pt]

MuttleyLaff:

@INTROVERT @SUGARBEE - this is complementing some parts in Jeromejnr's original post

]1 Corinthians 14:34-35:
Should Women be Silent in Church?

VIDEO'S TRANSCRIPT:
One controversy concerns the role of women in church ministry. One scripture in particular seems to exclude women from any public ministry:

'Let your women keep SILENT in the churches,
for it is NOT PERMITTED FOR THEM TO SPEAK;
but they are commanded to be under obedience,
as THE LAW also SAYS.
And IF they want to learn something,
let them ask their own husbands at home,
for it is SHAMEFUL FOR WOMEN TO SPEAK IN CHURCH.'
(1 Corinthians 14:34,35)

Some would explain this away as a special command to the unruly women at Corinth to straighten-up, rather than a general command to all women everywhere. But if we treat one scripture this way, what is to stop us treating every scripture this way? Surely the New Testament is written for the whole church.

The subject of the passage is: 'THE WOMEN IN THE CHURCHES (plural)'. This means-'all women.' Moreover the command is based on 'the law' which means it applies to all, rather than just to those in a particular culture or time.

Let us consider what this passage is literally saying. The word for 'silent' does not mean 'quiet' Thus it is not saying that women should have a quiet (meek) spirit. The word translated 'silent' means no word can be spoken!

It is saying WOMEN MUST BE (completely) SILENT IN CHURCH. This doesn't just disqualify them from teaching but also from testifying, praying, prophesing and moving in the gifts of the Spirit-the latter being the context of these verses (1 Cor 12:1)

The First Problem with this passage, is that it contradicts Paul's other teaching in this book.
For he says women may pray and prophesy in church (1 Cor 11:3-5).
In 1Corinthians 12, especially in v13-27 he teaches that all members of the church (men and women), are members of the body and thus have a function in the body working in co-ordination with each other, and so we can all be used in the gifts and ministries of the Spirit.

So, he says: 'if ALL (men and women) prophesy' (1 Cor 14:24)
'When you come together, EVERY ONE (men and women) of you has a psalm, has a doctrine, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation.' (v26)
'You may ALL prophesy one by one.' (v31)

So, why would he say 3 verses later that all women must be silent in church? Is he being doubleminded?
So the first problem is that in the middle of encouraging everyone to move out in ministry, he is telling all women to be silent!

This also contradicts the spirit of the New-Testament with Jesus treating women with honour, with the churches set free from all Jewish traditions (Acts15), with full equality in the church (Gal 3:28) and with the Spirit poured upon all flesh (male and female) to give power for ministry (Acts 1:8, 2:4,16-18)

A Second Problem is the discouragement upon women from even learning:
'and IF THEY WANT TO LEARN.' The tone of this is condescending to women, that not only should they not speak, it is optional for them to learn the Word (it is even mildly frowned upon as if it were not really their place.) This is clearly in contradiction to the New Testament teaching for women and contrasts with what Paul said in 1Timothy 2:11: 'LET a woman learn.' Here he encourages women to study the Word. Here he speaks against those who would discourage them.

A Third Problem is the AUTHORITY used:
'IT IS NOT PERMITTED FOR THEM TO SPEAK ..AS THE LAW ALSO SAYS.'

Which Law is this? There are 4 possibilities:
(1) The Old Testament Scripture. (The Law of Moses)
It is usually referred to by 'It is written' (1 Cor 1:19,31; 3:19,20; 4:6; 9:9; 10:11, 14:21; 15:45,51)

(2) The Teaching of Jesus (1 Cor 7:10).

(3) The Apostolic Teaching and Tradition
-that which Paul and others received by revelation from the Lord (1 Cor 7:12) Paul received special new revelations to meet the needs of a new situation (the Church Age where many Gentiles were becoming believers on an equal footing with the Jews). For example: 1 Cor 2:10-13,16; 4:1,15-17, 7:6,10,12,17,25; 11:1,2,16,17, 23; 14:36,37; 15:1,3

(4) The Oral Law of the Jews (later written as the Talmud)- the interpretation of Moses' Law by the Scribes and Pharisees. It is followed by the Orthodox Jews to this day as of equal authority to the Bible. They falsely claimed it was passed down from Moses by word of mouth. Jesus clashed with Pharisees over this law. He rejected it and came against it's legalistic spirit (Matt15:3, Mark7:3).

Now when 1 Cor 14:34,35 refers to a law of silence for women, it couldn't be:
(1) because there's no such law in the Old-Testament and he would say 'it is written';
neither is it found in the Gospels (2).
Neither is it (3) because it is clearly a pre-existing law.
Therefore by a process of elimination it must be (4) The Jewish Oral Law (the laws of the Pharisees)

This is confirmed by the phrase: 'As also SAYS the Law.' - a reference to the ORAL law rather than the WRITTEN law (scripture).
(see also Matt 5:21,27,31, 33,38,43)

Also, we know this because it agrees completely with the Talmud and applies to Orthodox synagogues today. The service is for men only. Women are discouraged from even learning, but are sometimes allowed to watch from the gallery, for their place is at home not with things too high for them! And it would be shameful for them to speak in a meeting.

TALMUDIC QUOTES illustrate this:
A Jewish Prayer:'Praise God He hasn't created me a gentile, a woman or an ignorant man.'
'The woman, says the law, is in all things inferior to the man.'
Only men could speak in public (Beraktoth 4,36; Mishnah Aboth 1,5)
No woman could give a testimony or conduct business. (Mishnah Shabbath 4,1)

Women were viewed with disregard and repression, and the Talmud contains many distasteful insults of women's character. They were to be avoided. They were not required to know or fulfil the law and so few were learned.

One said: 'May the words of the Torah be burned rather than be given to women.'
In public worship they were segregated and silenced and so had to ask questions of their husbands at home.

Clearly the writer of 1 Cor 14:34,35 reflected this Pharisaical attitude to women and used this Jewish Law to support his views.

So why would Paul say something that stands in contradiction to the immediate context and the rest of the New Testament? Why would he establish this teaching on Jewish Laws that elsewhere, both he and Jesus rejected?

The simple answer is these verses are not Paul's teaching!
Paul's letters are written in response church situations. 1 Corinthians is the most responsive of them all. Paul had received reports about what was going on (1:11, 5:1, 6:1,8 ), and the church had sent a letter to Paul with many questions (7:1,8,10,12,25; 8:1,4; 12:1; 16:1). There was disunity (1:10-12,3:3). In particular there were 2 groups of people saved from different backgrounds disputing -Jews who tended toward legalism, and Greeks who tended toward license. Paul goes through the issues and questions raised one by one.

Examples of when Paul is clearly responding to what one group has said are 6:15-20 (Greeks); 9:1-11; 11:1-16 (Jews) and 15:12,35,36.

Sometimes he refers what they are saying and then he answers them -e.g.1 Cor 4:8: 'You are already full! You are already rich! You have reigned as kings without us.' (this is what some of them had claimed) --'and indeed I wish you did reign, that we might also reign with you.' (Paul's answer - see also 4:10)

Sometimes he even quotes what they say and then answers them. The problem is that there are no punctuation or quote marks in the Greek and the translators often miss them out.

Some examples of this, are when he responds to the 'loose' Greeks as in 6:12,13:
(You say) 'All things are lawful for me.'
(I Paul) say: 'but all things are not helpful.'
(You say) 'All things are lawful for me.'
(I Paul) say: 'but I will not be brought under the power of any.'
(You say) 'Food is for the stomach and the stomach for foods.'
(I Paul) say: 'but God will destroy both it and them.'
We see the same in 10:23,24.

In questions about idols Paul challenges those who pride themselves in their knowledge but who do not hold it in love. (8:1-3) 8:4: 'We know that -'an idol is nothing in the world and that there is but one God' (again he quotes their words (their knowledge) before he answers as confirmed in v10,11.

Other examples are when he responds to the 'legalistic Jews', 7:1:
'Now concerning what you wrote to me,
(some of you said) 'It is good for a man not to touch a woman.'
(But I Paul say) 'Nevertheless because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife...'

Now we can understand what is happening in 1 Cor 14:34,35.
Paul is quoting what some Jewish converts to Christ, had written in a letter to Paul, complaining about women being involved in church services. Although they were saved they were used to male-dominated synagogue - worship and so found the equality of women in church life hard to take.

They were saying: 'Paul, these women are prophesying, praying out loud, speaking in tongues. The Oral law says it's shameful for a woman to speak in public. Tell them to shut-up!'

So as Paul is teaching on every member participating in church services, it is the natural place for him to deal with their objection. So he quotes what they say: 'Let your women keep silent in the churches, for it is not permitted for them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home, for it is shameful for women to speak in church' (v34,35)

Then he answers them: 'What, came the word of God out from you? or came it to you only? If any think himself a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things I write to you (not the Talmud) are the commandments of the Lord (the true authority) But if any (choose to be) be ignorant, let him be ignorant.' (v36-38) Paul replies by asserting his apostolic authority above the Talmud.

This also explains why these verses come out of the blue, interrupting the flow of thought, which is picked up again in v39,40: 'Therefore brethren, covet to prophesy and do not forbid to speak with tongues.'

The placement of v34,35 in the passage as a clear interruption and marked contrast to what Paul is teaching, serves to separate them from Paul's own views.

We conclude that Paul isn't silencing women, rather the opposite!

Those who are too quick to agree with v34,35 have unwittingly submitted to an unchristian pharisaical spirit

https://www.nairaland.com/2562744/opinion-women-preaching-church-not/4#37488867

[/size]

A single blow to this theory is verse 33

1 Corinthians 14:33 King James Version (KJV)
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.


1. Paul is giving UNIVERSAL and not a local solution or rules. Note the highlighted

2. These are HIS words and not Q&A

1 Corinthians 7:17 King James Version (KJV)
17 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.
IN ALL CHURCHES shows that is a standard

3. There is no contradiction; teaching is not prophesying not is it praying

No matter how hard they try to twist that scripture to mislead women, the truth of the holyghost will never changed; the bible doesn't allow a woman to Pastor a Church or take a position of leadership in things pertaining salvation in the Church of Jesus Christ, period!

Mother Eve messed up our first chance, which is why God is not allowing it happen again! It's as simple as that...

So let's add v14 and v15 to that scripture and see how it plays out!

1Timothy 2:14-15

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self- control.

DoubleDeeX:
No matter how hard they try to twist that scripture to mislead women, the truth of the holyghost will never changed; the bible doesn't allow a woman to Pastor a Church or take a position of leadership in things pertaining salvation in the Church of Jesus Christ, period!

Mother Eve messed up our first chance, which is why God is not allowing it happen again! It's as simple as that...

So let's add v14 and v15 to that scripture and see how it plays out!

1Timothy 2:14-15

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self- control.

Question for you
What about the childless or the celibate women? Are they never saved since they never beat children?

vooks:
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A single blow to this theory is verse 33

1 Corinthians 14:33 King James Version (KJV)
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.


1. Paul is giving UNIVERSAL and not a local solution or rules. Note the highlighted

2. These are HIS words and not Q&A

1 Corinthians 7:17 King James Version (KJV)
17 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.
IN ALL CHURCHES shows that is a standard

3. There is no contradiction; teaching is not prophesying not is it praying

Go do your research well, that scripture was from the Jewish Halakah were questions were written to Rabbis and the Rabbis would respond back to them using that same Halakah.

In this case Paul was the Rabbi and a question concerning women and their positions based on the former old testament laws were was asked if it was still necessary in the modern church.

That was why he responded with "What! Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only? If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord's commandment.…"

Let me give you an acid test. They were Jews who knew and observed all the laws strictly. Anything that tried to come against that law was seen as heretic. That was why Jesus was constantly criticized when he brought forth laws that seemed to oppose the former and that was also why Peter faced criticism when he went to preach to the gentiles.

The Jews were already used to leaving women out of public matters so it won't have been a problem observing that in the modern church. But Paul comes along and says something different which surely gains criticism. So he ends by saying "But if anyone ignores this, they will themselves be ignored."

If he had said women shouldn't speak, that will never generate criticism because the men and women themselves had already been used to it by tradition.

So that is to show you that because there was a dispute, Paul had to have said something contrary to the norm of their beliefs. Otherwise were will the women have gotten the boldness to stand and speak in Church?

You need to understand that even after this period most Christians of that time still struggled with the old testament practices (E.g. Circumcision). But Paul constantly tried to tell them they were free from all that. If they could struggle with practicing something like circumcision, how will women of that time without commandment come out in public to teach? This practice had been since the time of Abraham.

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Jeromejnr:


Go do your research well, that scripture was from the Jewish Halakah were questions were written to Rabbis and the Rabbis would respond back to them using that same Halakah.

In this case Paul was the Rabbi and a question concerning women and their positions based on the former old testament laws were was asked if it was still necessary in the modern church.

That was why he responded with "What! Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only? If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord's commandment.…"

Let me give you an acid test. They were Jews who knew and observed all the laws strictly. Anything that tried to come against that law was seen as heretic. That was why Jesus was constantly criticized when he brought forth laws that seemed to oppose the former and that was also why Peter faced criticism when he went to preach to the gentiles.

The Jews were already used to leaving women out of public matters so it won't have been a problem observing that in the modern church. But Paul comes along and says something different which surely gains criticism. So he ends by saying "But if anyone ignores this, they will themselves be ignored."

If he had said women shouldn't speak, that will never generate criticism because the men and women themselves had already been used to it by tradition.

So that is to show you that because there was a dispute, Paul had to have said something contrary to the norm of their beliefs. Otherwise were will the women have gotten the boldness to stand and speak in Church?

You need to understand that even after this period most Christians of that time still struggled with the old testament practices (E.g. Circumcision). But Paul constantly tried to tell them they were free from all that. If they could struggle with practicing something like circumcision, how will women of that time without commandment come out in public to teach? This practice had been since the time of Abraham.

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Am not one given to wresting scriptures
What is the purpose of 'as in all the churches of the Saints'? Was that part of the question?

(ESV) 36 Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached?

Paul has just instructed Corinth to conduct themselves like other churches, not to feel special. He now sarcastically wonders why they should act differently by asking whether they originated the gospel or are the only recipient. The answers to these two questions are in the negative so there is no ocassion for them to think or act differently hence the In Corinth, as in all the churches of the saints, women should keep silent

vooks:
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Am not one given to wresting scriptures
What is the purpose of 'as in all the churches of the Saints'?

Was that part of the question?

You know what, just google Maria Etter and read her story. Right now I am busy and can't start expounding scriptures.

If God is opposed to Women teaching in public, why will he allow so much power in this woman's ministry? Power that affected streets far away from her camp meetings.

And you know Jesus only confirms His will with signs and wonders following. Jesus is not confused like you said. He will not confirm and give full support to something that is against His will.

Jeromejnr:


You know what, just google Maria Etter and read her story. Right now I am busy and can't start expounding scriptures.

If God is opposed to Women teaching in public, why will he allow so much power in this woman's ministry? Power that affected streets far away from her camp meetings.

And you know Jesus only confirms His will with signs and wonders following. Jesus is not confused like you said. He will not confirm and give full support to something that is against His will.

There are two things;
1. God allowed and regulated divorce yet He hates it all because of the hardness of men's hearts
2. We do not derive doctrine from practice but practice from doctrine. We establish what scriptures say FIRST and then we walk in it. If same-sex unions turned out happier and more stable than heterosexual unions, this would not overturn the truth that God is against homosexuality. You can't go running around saying, 'hey, look how gays are gay and we are busy divorcing and fighting. Gay is good'

Remember it is the inspired words that say this not me

Winsomex,
What is your take on this?
Personally I regard it a puzzle that women were recipients of the highest of all gifts; prophecy but they were not to teach men. The culture view is quite appealing except Paul appeals to scriptures not culture and it also opens a can of worms. I hon LGBT have argued that anti-homosexuality stance in NT is a 'cultural issue' as well.

The scripture said the daughters of Philip prophesied.

Acts 21v9 -And the same man (Philip) had four daughters, virgins, WHICH DID PROPHESY.

The gift of prophecy is for speaking unto the edification of the church

1Cor 14v3 -But he that prophesieth SPEAKETH UNTO MEN to edification, and EXHORTATION, and comfort.

Scripture went further;

1Cor 14v4 -...but he that prophesieth EDIFIETH THE CHURCH.

If the Holy Spirit wanted women to keep quiet in church, why would He give women the gift of prophecy -the gift of speaking unto men to edification and exhortation of the church?

The gift of prophecy is to speak unto men to exhortation and comfort; and to edify the church. That gift should be forbidden to women; if God wanted women to keep quiet in church, and to not exhort in church.

On the day of pentecost, it wasn't only the men that spoke in tongues of men, there were women among them too; and they all spoke out in tongues of men. And that was the move of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 1v14 -These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, WITH THE WOMEN, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

Acts 2v4 -And they were ALL (the women inclusive) filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to SPEAK with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Women spoke out in tongues of men just like the other brethren, to the amazement of the heathens and the exhortation of everyone.

Acts 2v11,12 -...we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. And they were all amazed, ...

The Corinthian church was a very rowdy church, so disorderly in their conduct of worship; in holy communion, in practise of tongues etc. And Paul wrote to them to set things straight and in order.

We should understand some things in the epistles in this context; so that we would be more spiritual and less dogmatic in interpreting the instructions Paul gave to some churches in the conduct of worship.

Because if we are to judge by the antecedents of the move of the Spirit in the scriptures, even in the biblical church; we will see that God also gave women the gift of exhortation and edification of the church in word (either through prophecy or interpreted tongues).

This should not be, if God wanted women to shut up in church, and/or have nothing to do on the pulpit.

1Cor 14v31  -For ye may ALL prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

If God gave women the gift of prophecy, it means God also has something to say and teach through women, and He wants the church to also learn from them. If God wants to exhort through a woman, who are we to shut them up in the name of dogmatism?

Let us apply more spirituality and humility, and less dogmatism and legalism in interpreting the instructions Paul gave to some churches concerning conduct of worship.

Shalom.

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ayoku777:
The scripture said the daughters of Philip prophesied.

Acts 21v9 -And the same man (Philip) had four daughters, virgins, WHICH DID PROPHESY.

The gift of prophecy is for speaking unto the edification of the church

1Cor 14v3 -But he that prophesieth SPEAKETH UNTO MEN to edification, and EXHORTATION, and comfort.

Scripture went further;

1Cor 14v4 -...but he that prophesieth EDIFIETH THE CHURCH.

If the Holy Spirit wanted women to keep quiet in church, why would He give women the gift of prophecy -the gift of speaking unto men to edification and exhortation of the church?

The gift of prophecy is to speak unto men to exhortation and comfort; and to edify the church. That gift should be forbidden to women; if God wanted women to keep quiet in church, and to not exhort in church.

On the day of pentecost, it wasn't only the men that spoke in tongues of men, there were women among them too; and they all spoke out in tongues of men. And that was the move of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 1v14 -These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, WITH THE WOMEN, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

Acts 2v4 -And they were ALL (the women inclusive) filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to SPEAK with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Women spoke out in tongues of men just like the other brethren, to the amazement of the heathens and the exhortation of everyone.

Acts 2v11,12 -...we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. And they were all amazed, ...

The Corinthian church was a very rowdy church, so disorderly in their conduct of worship; in holy communion, in practise of tongues etc. And Paul wrote to them to set things straight and in order.

We should understand some things in the epistles in this context; so that we would be more spiritual and less dogmatic in interpreting the instructions Paul gave to some churches in the conduct of worship.

Because if we are to judge by the antecedents of the move of the Spirit in the scriptures, even in the biblical church; we will see that God also gave women the gift of exhortation and edification of the church in word (either through prophecy or interpreted tongues).

This should not be, if God wanted women to shut up in church, and/or have nothing to do on the pulpit.

1Cor 14v31  -For ye may ALL prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

If God gave women the gift of prophecy, it means God also has something to say and teach through women, and He wants the church to also learn from them. If God wants to exhort through a woman, who are we to shut them up in the name of dogmatism?

Let us apply more spirituality and humility, and less dogmatism and legalism in interpreting the instructions Paul gave to some churches concerning conduct of worship.

Shalom.

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Obviously prophesying and praying is not TEACHING. Isn't this why there is a gift of prophecy and another of teaching?

vooks:
Obviously prophesying and praying is not TEACHING. Isn't this why there is a gift of prophecy and another of teaching?

Prophecy means to speak under the inspiration of the Spirit. Whether the Holy Spirit chooses to teach (exhort) or pray or sing or fortell through the prophecy is up to Him. And He does that through women too.

Shalom

ayoku777:


Prophecy means to speak under the inspiration of the Spirit. Whether the Holy Spirit chooses to teach (exhort) or pray or sing or fortell through the prophecy is up to Him. And He does that through women too.

Shalom

What is the difference between prophecy and teaching because these are two distinct gifts as far as Paul is concerned?

vooks:
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Obviously prophesying and praying is not TEACHING. Isn't this why there is a gift of prophecy and another of teaching?

But don't forget it was in the SAME Corinth that FEMALE Priscilla TAUGHT Apollos the WORD OF GOD more adequately. Why would she do that?

vooks:

What is the difference between prophecy and teaching because these are two distinct gifts as far as Paul is concerned?

When I study the bible and I gain some insight and I'm explaining the insight to others in my own words, I am teaching.

But when you prophesy, you are speaking under the inspiration of the Spirit. It is the Spirit supplying the utterance. Prophecy is like speaking in tongues in a language all can understand.

The Holy Spirit can teach through prophecy too. He can exhort, comfort or fortell through prophecy. But the utterance are directly His, like in speaking in tongues.

But then again, teaching itself is a form of prophecy. Because the bible says;

Rev 19v10 -For the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy.

So to testify of Christ is to prophesy and to prophesy is to testify of Christ. So everytime you preach or teach Jesus; that is prophecy on a level.

And to God, there is no gender restriction on the gift of prophecy (the gift of speaking unto men to edification, exhortation and comfort of the church).

Acts 2v17 -...I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons AND YOUR DAUGHTERS shall prophesy, ...

But what's your deal on this arguments of prophecy and teaching? If a woman can prophesy to the edification of the church, it means not only does God not want a woman to be silent in church; He wants her to be heard in church.

Whether the prophecy is in the form of exhortation or prayer or fortelling changes nothing.

This argument of teaching versus prophecy is useless in this discussion.

Shalom

vooks:
A single blow to this theory is verse 33

Did you say single blow?
You extrapolated to 1 Corinthians 14:33, in order to punch a blow below the belt to score an illegal point

1 Corinthians 14:33 is not part of 1 Corinthians 14:34-35
1 Corinthians 14:33 is the conclusion to having prophesy in turns, so that everyone may be instructed properly and encouraged clearly

vooks:
1 Corinthians 14:33 King James Version (KJV)
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

1. Paul is giving UNIVERSAL and not a local solution or rules. Note the highlighted

Of course, its a universal guideline to any gathering of believers, however up till this point has to do with prophesying and nothing to with what will unfold in the next verses (i.e. 1 Corinthians 14:34-35)

vooks:
2. These are HIS words and not Q&A

1 Corinthians 14:33 is his own words
however 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 is repeating another's statement (i.e. the antagonists' statement)
before making one's own comment (i.e. before Paul is making his own response/reply to that statement)

vooks:
1 Corinthians 7:17 King James Version (KJV)
17 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.
IN ALL CHURCHES shows that is a standard

Here, on an extrapolating excursion you go again.

vooks:
3. There is no contradiction; teaching is not prophesying not is it praying

This is a long letter addressing several issues,which you've muddled up

Orderliness was the theme of this letter.

Paul in the letter, was addressing the confusion and disorder emanating from how the Corinthians were conducting themselves in believers' gatherings
Part of the chaos, confusion and disorder were created by those bent on maintaining the marginalisation of women status quo
hence the reason how 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 crept into Paul's comments or responses in his letter to the Corinthians

Am so happy I entered into this thread this morning. I have learn loads. I now can go on a do what I like to do, preach. although not in church, but in my Neighbourhood. Broadcast evangelism.
Someone told me, God will allow me preach, because someone may believe and repent, but it wasn't my place to preach, so I'll go to hell eventually for disobidience.
Ah, my church, women can only minister in songs. My Pastor's (G.O's) wife takes offerings rarelly, and takes prayer points rarelly too. Every other woman sit down and shut up.
So many spirit filled women, sitting down and shutting up, but privately, when they speak, my God. But in church, young men who know virtually nothing exert upon them.
At least I now know for myself. Well, I used to know, but counter views just like the views in this thread. But am certain, now for sure that women can teach.
I love to teach.

Thanks Jeromejnr.