anonimi:

vanitty,

since you pay income tax on your salary or business profit why don't you refuse to pay VAT. that is just one example. I can give you more if/when you respond to this.
meanwhile, is your N/L name indicative of your priorities in life?

First of all what has the choice of my name got to do with my priorities, if you trying to be insulting you have to do better than that.

What has the question you asked got to do with my previous post? Ok let me try and explain again, maybe you will get it this time. A church do not pay tax because they are non-profit, if you check around you will see most non-profit organisation do not pay tax. So I really don’t see how the answer I gave got to me paying my tax and VAT. Paying income based taxes and VAT are not connected.

Just for the sake of it, VAT is value added tax; you get VAT on all products which could easily mean you are paying tax on the product get it now? Besides I am pretty sure all the equipment in the church were bought with the VAT already included. Churches do not pay tax on tithe and offering but they sure do with the goods bought and some services rendered to them .

Pastor AIO:

I don't need to pay tax because the people that pay for my services have already paid their taxes.

And I guess my accountant and my lawyer don't need to pay their tax either cos I've already paid mine through the people that employed my services in the first place.

You really don't know much do you? Go and read up on what a non-profit organisation is and see if your lawyer and accountant qualifies before you try and make jibes at others

vanitty:

You really don't know much do you? Go and read up on what a non-profit organisation is and see if your lawyer and accountant qualifies before you try and make jibes at others

I know that I know nothing; And that is more than most people know. - Socrates

vanitty:

Why should a church pay tax since they are non-profit , supported by people and it was 5 of this people that donated the money to buy the jet. I have found out the some people conveniently ignore that part and go on with the bashing of the reverend.

By the way churches are non-profit organisation, it is up to the so called gullible members to demand any financial information they want no one else and if they are happy with whatsoever that is happening in the church then I really don’t see what business it is off yours

They (churches) might be tax exempt but they do more for the society than the so-called government, don’t blame the tax-exempt churches for the woes of uncivilization that reigns in the country. That country can easily do all those things you mentioned if not for the thieving politicians that would rather have all for themselves and non for the masses

I doubt churches are classified as non-profit but rather exempted as defined below

the profits of any company engaged in ecclesiastical, charitable or educational activities of a public character in so far as such profits are not derived from a trade or business carried on by such company

Would a knowledgeable tax accountant/lawyer please shed more light on the issue. Of particular interest to me is how the church owned universities figure into it.

biina:

I doubt churches are classified as non-profit but rather exempted as defined below

the profits of any company engaged in ecclesiastical, charitable or educational activities of a public character in so far as such profits are not derived from a trade or business carried on by such company

Would a knowledgeable tax accountant/lawyer please shed more light on the issue. Of particular interest to me is how the church owned universities figure into it.

I don’t know about all churches but the churches I know off don’t get government funding, are not involved in politics i.e. they don’t go on TV & radio and start persuading people to vote for one person or the other and all funding are gift from the congregations but if you insist they are not non-profit maybe a unbiased lawyer or accountant could disprove me.

If a church owns a university, and it sells services for profit,  i think the  revenue of the university would be taxable

Pastor AIO:

I know that I know nothing; And that is more than most people know. - Socrates

Thank you for admitting that yourself but next time it is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt. unnecessary pettiness is not needed

vanitty:

Thank you for admitting that yourself but next time it is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt. unnecessary pettiness is not needed

I'm afraid I cannot oblige you there. Whether I'm stupid or not, apparently or without doubt, I will always speak my mind and you and your kind will never scare or bully me into doing otherwise.

This is a public forum for discussion. If I say something wrong or foolish even then the thing to do is to produce arguments to debunk what I've said. You've failed to do this and merely resorted to telling me how ignorant I am. Yes, I do know that I know nothing and that is obviously a damn sight more that you know.
Anyway you're right that this is unnecessary pettiness. Let's get back to the main issue of contention. Here's what I had to say about the matter we're discussing. Have you any comments?

Pastor AIO:

A number of things make the Thisday article appear inauthentic. 

1) Instead of reporting the facts as facts they seem to be hedging by saying: The purchase of a private jet, a Gulfstream 4XP with registration number 707EA, might have been attributed to the General Overseer of the Redeemed Christian Church of God (RCCG), Pastor Enoch Adeboye, in error.

Might?  Is that how you report a news story?  They either made an error or they did not make an error. 

If they made an error I am very interested to know how the error was arrived at. It is not an easy error to make. What was the initial source of the story? Some church members buy a jet for commercial purposes and this gets misconstrued and reported as Redeemed bought a Jet!

2) They claim to have seen documents but failed to narrate to us any of the contents of the documents that prove that it was purchased by 5 entrepreneurs. 

Now ever seen I've been aware of business dealings, I've never heard of business men that want to keep their names confidential.  I don't know about you o, but most business I know try to advertise. Thisday says: The five members of the church, whose names are being withheld for confidential reasons,

So, say, I'm a potential client and I want to charter their plane . . . I don't know who to go to to discuss terms or availability.  Remember, the plane doesn't belong to Redeemed so I can't go to Redeemed to negotiate terms for the charter.  How ridiculous is that?  A confidential business entrepreneur.  Not even 1, but 5. 

3)Who is this other source that ThisDay then quote.  He tells us that the business plan is well laid out.  Is he one of the entrepreneurs that he knows the business plan so well?  Does the document first alluded to also give details of the business plan?

Sorry but the whole things just smells very fishy.  It smells of a PR exercise in damage limitation.

vanitty:


They (churches) might be tax exempt but they do more for the society than the so-called government,

I am sure you can give a list of these things they do more for the society as you seem to know so much more than others on this forum.

vanitty:


That country can easily do all those things you mentioned

Are you a Nigerian?

vanitty:

don’t blame the tax-exempt churches for the woes of uncivilization that reigns in the country. That country can easily do all those things you mentioned if not for the thieving politicians that would rather have all for themselves and non for the masses

and who are the major recipients of the loot of these "thieving politicians" other than your reverends, GOs, pastors, imams, sheikhs, khadis etc., with Adeboye in the very ore front of the pack. Or maybe you do not see these thieving politicians in the front row seats on Sundays and ceremonies in your churches?
So do you see why the churches and mosques are to blame for the rot in "that" country?

All these facts are all lies .why did it take this long to come out with the so call facts? Why are the names of those that claimed bought it is still kept secret?what are thy doing for living to bd able to buy a jet for charter purpose? in NCAA,they are responsible for the regulatory of the aviation sector,we all are aware you cant use one aircraft for commercial purpose, Redeemed Authourity are still hiding the truth.So all these facts are just covering up. Adeboye bought that plane,cos he wants to flow with the big boys in the pentecostal circle that also have planes. So that plane belongs to him bicos he wants to belong.

@ Pastor AIO

Pastor AIO:

A number of things make the Thisday article appear inauthentic. 

1) Instead of reporting the facts as facts they seem to be hedging by saying: The purchase of a private jet, a Gulfstream 4XP with registration number 707EA, might have been attributed to the General Overseer of the Redeemed Christian Church of God (RCCG), Pastor Enoch Adeboye, in error.

Might? Is that how you report a news story? They either made an error or they did not make an error.

If they made an error I am very interested to know how the error was arrived at.  It is not an easy error to make. What was the initial source of the story? Some church members buy a jet for commercial purposes and this gets misconstrued and reported as Redeemed bought a Jet!

2) They claim to have seen documents but failed to narrate to us any of the contents of the documents that prove that it was purchased by 5 entrepreneurs. 

Now ever seen I've been aware of business dealings, I've never heard of business men that want to keep their names confidential. I don't know about you o, but most business I know try to advertise. Thisday says: The five members of the church, whose names are being withheld for confidential reasons,

So, say, I'm a potential client and I want to charter their plane . . . I don't know who to go to to discuss terms or availability.  Remember, the plane doesn't belong to Redeemed so I can't go to Redeemed to negotiate terms for the charter.  How ridiculous is that?  A confidential business entrepreneur.  Not even 1, but 5. 

3)Who is this other source that ThisDay then quote.  He tells us that the business plan is well laid out.  Is he one of the entrepreneurs that he knows the business plan so well?  Does the document first alluded to also give details of the business plan?

Sorry but the whole things just smells very fishy.  It smells of a PR exercise in damage limitation.

So because of the use of “might” you have come to the conclusion that they are trying to cover up.
Might is used when there is a possibility things could or could not have happened and I am sure you know the expression “innocent till proven guilty” until you can prove that the owner of the jet is Rev Adeboye, you have to be content with the explanation given by “thisday”
Besides if you are trying disprove the new article by thisday, your bone of contention should be with the journalists that wrote a totally fabricated story the first time round and his/her second article still raising doubt on the issue.


To come to that sort of conclusion that it is impossible for there to be that sort of business man in the world you must have encountered all the business man in the world so have you?
If you are trying to invalidate articles/people you have to have “facts” not just based on  personal intuition

2) They claim to have seen documents but failed to narrate to us any of the contents of the documents that prove that it was purchased by 5 entrepreneurs.

Now ever seen I've been aware of business dealings[b], I've never heard of business men that want to keep their names confidential.[/b] I don't know about you o, but most business I know try to advertise. Thisday says: The five members of the church, whose names are being withheld for confidential reasons,

So, say, I'm a potential client and I want to charter their plane . . . I don't know who to go to to discuss terms or availability. Remember, the plane doesn't belong to Redeemed so I can't go to Redeemed to negotiate terms for the charter. How ridiculous is that? A confidential business entrepreneur. Not even 1, but 5.

Are you for real??


Business confidentiality is absolutely necessary, especially when the SOURCE of the information has not received explicit instructions from the aforementioned investors to reveal their identity.

Why do businesses bother to sign confidentiality agreements? Why do people create Special Purpose Vehicles (SPVs) to conduct business on their behalf?? Why do they create companies owned by proxies?

If you are a potential client, you will be contacted by the Charter Airline registered to run the plane, not the five investors. They might actually have NO day to day involvement in running the business, so their identity is[b] completely irrelevant to the business.
[/b]

Advertising their business does not need to include their personal names. I don't see Otedola plastered across every AP ad, or Ibru's name being placed side by side every Guardian ad. You have no point in this regard.

anonimi:


I am sure you can give a list of these things they do more for the society as you seem to know so much more than others on this forum.

I do not claim to no more than anyone but then again i do not come up with random things just to thrust aside the main issues so i ask again what has my income based tax and VAT has to do with tax exempt churches?

anonimi:

and who are the major recipients of the loot of these "thieving politicians" other than your reverends, GOs, pastors, imams, sheikhs, khadis etc., with Adeboye in the very ore front of the pack. Or maybe you do not see these thieving politicians in the front row seats on Sundays and ceremonies in your churches?
So do you see why the churches and mosques are to blame for the rot in "that" country?

I think that the onus should be on the person trying to make us believe that the major recipients of the loot are the religious leader so i ask can you prove your stance on the matter?

vanitty:

@ Pastor AIO

So because of the use of “might” you have come to the conclusion that they are trying to cover up.
Might is used when there is a possibility things could or could not have happened and I am sure you know the expression “innocent till proven guilty” until you can prove that the owner of the jet is Rev Adeboye, you have to be content with the explanation given by “thisday”

Besides if you are trying disprove the new article by thisday, your bone of contention should be with the journalists that wrote a totally fabricated story the first time round and his/her second article still raising doubt on the issue.

To come to that sort of conclusion that it is impossible for there to be that sort of business man in the world you must have encountered all the business man in the world so have you?
If you are trying to invalidate articles/people you have to have “facts” not just based on  personal intuition

When someone tells me that they have documents proving something then I expect them to state the facts of the matter categorically and incontrovertibly.  As you say 'Might is used when there is a possibility things could or could not have happened'.  So even with the documents they've received they still can't tell us for certain that the plane could not have been bought by Adeboye. 

It is not because of the word 'might' that I've come to the conclusion.  The word 'might' merely raised the alarm. 

I don't know every single business in the world but I'm prepared to bet my bottom dollar that every business in the world seeks to advertise it's services.  Even the most clandestine businesses in the world, take drug dealers for instance, will try to let potential clients know that they've got 'some good stuff just flown in from columbia'.  The only people they will be hiding from are people that can spoil the business like the police. 

Perhaps you can tell me of a legitimate business that operates under secrecy.  Then I'll accept that I was wrong. 

debosky:

Are you for real??


Business confidentiality is absolutely necessary, especially when the SOURCE of the information has not received explicit instructions from the aforementioned investors to reveal their identity.

Why do businesses bother to sign confidentiality agreements? Why do people create Special Purpose Vehicles (SPVs) to conduct business on their behalf?? Why do they create companies owned by proxies?

If you are a potential client, you will be contacted by the Charter Airline registered to run the plane, not the five investors. They might actually have NO day to day involvement in running the business, so their identity is[b] completely irrelevant to the business.
[/b]

Advertising their business does not need to include their personal names. I don't see Otedola plastered across every AP ad, or Ibru's name being placed side by side every Guardian ad. You have no point in this regard.

Good lord!!   
Those planes were not bought by proxies of SPVs or whatever.  The documents that Thisday had said they were bought by 5 individuals for the purposes of commerce.  I'm only going by what the article said. 

Businesses sign confidentiality agreements with their employees.  Not with the media or with clients. 

Perhaps you can give me an example of businesses that don't advertise.  Yes, advertising a business does not need to include the personal names of the investors in the business, but the company involved must have it's name there.  When Guardian advertises you are informed that if ever you want 'conscience nurtured by truth' then the place to go to is Guardian newspaper. 

This jet was not bought by a company, according to ThisDay but rather by 5 individuals who don't want to advertise their business.

Pastor AIO:

Good lord!!   
Those planes were not bought by proxies of SPVs or whatever.  The documents that Thisday had said they were bought by 5 individuals for the purposes of commerce.  I'm only going by what the article said. 

How do you know the airline was not bought by proxies or SPVs? All you know is that 5 people put a down payment. On the jet. Do you know the legal entity that OWNS the jet? No - all you know is that 30% of the downpayment came from a set of individuals, SIMPLE.

Businesses sign confidentiality agreements with their employees.  Not with the media or with clients. 

Once again you display ignorance. My bank CANNOT disclose any of my financial dealings to ANYONE without my permission. That in itself is a CONFIDENTIALITY agreement. If the information was sourced from a bank official as it appears, obviously the person leaking the info will not want to get himself in trouble by naming the people involved.

Perhaps you can give me an example of businesses that don't advertise.  Yes, advertising a business does not need to include the personal names of the investors in the business, but the company involved must have it's name there.  When Guardian advertises you are informed that if ever you want 'conscience nurtured by truth' then the place to go to is Guardian newspaper. 

Once again you are off point. HOW DO YOU KNOW they don't advertise?? The jet landed a few weeks ago and you are making definitive declarations regarding their business model? Is all this going on in reality or in your fertile imagination?

This jet was not bought by a company, according to ThisDay but rather by 5 individuals who don't want to advertise their business.

This is yet another baseless assumption. You have NO information about the individual identities, neither do you have the details of the purchase agreement. All we KNOW is that 5 people paid the downpayment for the jet. The only reason the '5 individuals' are mentioned is to dispel the rumour that the money came from RCCG accounts.

I think we have here a bunch of sophisticated haters of Pastor Enoch Adejare Abeboye, cos it is uncalled for, there have been a rumour, then the truth came up, what else do you want?, please if you are jealous of his achievement, go and kill your self, cos God is not done with him, He has only been given a jet and noise has filled the air, when better and greater things begins to come, i wonder what you people will say, please let him be.

@ poster
God bless you concerning that piece of information, it has almost led to doubting of the servant of God. we need more of you in NL not jealous and haters of success

debosky:

How do you know the airline was not bought by proxies or SPVs? All you know is that 5 people put a down payment. On the jet. Do you know the legal entity that OWNS the jet? No - all you know is that 30% of the downpayment came from a set of individuals, SIMPLE.
Once again you display ignorance. My bank CANNOT disclose any of my financial dealings to ANYONE without my permission. That in itself is a CONFIDENTIALITY agreement. If the information was sourced from a bank official as it appears, obviously the person leaking the information will not want to get himself in trouble by naming the people involved.

Okay, I can buy that.

todak:

I think we have here a bunch of sophisticated haters of Pastor Enoch Adejare Abeboye, cos it is uncalled for, there have been a rumour, then the truth came up, what else do you want?, please if you are jealous of his achievement, go and kill your self, cos God is not done with him, He has only been given a jet and noise has filled the air, when better and greater things begins to come, i wonder what you people will say, please let him be.

@ poster
God bless you concerning that piece of information, it has almost led to doubting of the servant of God. we need more of you in NL not jealous and haters of success

and based on what do you deem one a 'rumor' and the other the 'truth'. After all they are both sourced from the same news agency with little to no evidence in support.

Q: Besides THISDAY, has any other news agency reported on the issue?

vanitty:

I do not claim to no more than anyone but then again i do not come up with random things just to thrust aside the main issues so i ask again what has my income based tax and VAT has to do with tax exempt churches?

I think that the onus should be on the person trying to make us believe that the major recipients of the loot are the religious leader so i ask can you prove your stance on the matter?

Can you re-read my post again, please and don't forget to put on your reading glasses in case you did not do so the first time.

I also confirmed from someone that they raised pledges/vows for it last year.

3 days ago I wrote the above (post # 21) to corroborate PM News story and thought some RCCG and Adeboye churchgoers and sympathisers would have denied that such an offering was raised about 10 months ago.
I guess silence means consent!

You talking about this?

anonimi:


I am sure you can give a list of these things they do more for the society as you seem to know so much more than others on this forum.

Are you a Nigerian?

and who are the major recipients of the loot of these "thieving politicians" other than your reverends, GOs, pastors, imams, sheikhs, khadis etc., with Adeboye in the very ore front of the pack. Or maybe you do not see these thieving politicians in the front row seats on Sundays and ceremonies in your churches?
So do you see why the churches and mosques are to blame for the rot in "that" country?

Why don't you reply the rejoinder instead of trying to manoeuvre your way out of it and oh please come up with facts not hearsays .

and will you stop with your embarrasing attempt at being insultive it does nothing to me but makes you sound unsure of yourself and silly

Or maybe you do not see these thieving politicians in the front row seats on Sundays and ceremonies in your churches?

I assume you did not see this part of my post? Or did you?

anonimi:

Or maybe you do not see these thieving politicians in the front row seats on Sundays and ceremonies in your churches?

anonimi:

I assume you did not see this part of my post? Or did you?

Oh I saw that and I am asking you again for the third time if you can in anyway prove with fact  not hearsay or personal intuitions what you said “ that the major recipients of the loots from those politicians are the religious leader”

If you cannot ,don’t bother replying because we will just be going round in circles.