What is the wahala? Do you have a problem with people getting blessed?

Can you explain why the Pharisees and the Saducees that lived during the time of Jesus Christ kept feeling that Jesus was using beelzebub to perform His miracles ? Mat. 9:34; 12:24; Mar.3:22. Remember that they were the respected authorities as far as the analysis of the word of God was concerned then and yet Jesus said they were wrong. Only less than 3% Jews are Christians today.
Can you explain why men were created naked? Gen 2:25. What would have happened if they did not eat the forbidden fruit? Human senses are too unstable that they cannot be used to understand God. It is the Holy Spirit that can better explain the acts of God.

What do you make of Jesus' answer to his critics "And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?" Mat. 12:26 Mak 3:23;26.
I will advise that you act like Gamaliel :
"Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space;" Act 5:34-.


I am sure if Jesus had lived today people would still doubt the source of his power. Miracles differentiate churches from club houses. Why TB Joshua is popular today is because the pastors who claim to be true men of God are not doing what Jesus commanded them to do : "..If you believe greater miracle would you perform '. It was miracles that stood Jesus out from other mere teachers of the bible.

Read John 12:9-10 to see the impact of miracles.

9Meanwhile a large crowd of Jews found out that Jesus was there and came, not only because of him but also to see Lazarus, whom he had raised from the dead. 10So the chief priests made plans to kill Lazarus as well, 11for on account of him many of the Jews were going over to Jesus and putting their faith in him.


Once a person starts blowing English grammar, he is automatically the anointed man of God. It is because there is no true holy spirit that we have all of manner contradictions in the Christendom.[/color][color=#006600][color=Black][/color]

My mother always says dis yoruba proverb"oluwa ni o mo eni ti o si oun'meaning its only God dat knows who is serving him honestly..we human beings cos of our human nature are bound2 criticize wat we dnt feel2gud about.dis is a very controversial issue becos aldo iv things2 say..i dnt want2be a judge of others...d bible as stated in eccl 2.16 or dereabout dat everyone wld be judged according2 dere works weda good or bad..and d bible also says dat on d last day dat people will cry out2God.."we performed miracles in ur name,we called upon ur name.."and God wld turn2dem and say depart4rm me cos i knw u not..d bible also states dat by dere fruits ye shall know them..im admonishing u guys 2 continue believing d God u serve.and not base ur belief on ur pastors,bishops,prophets..havent u seen end time movies where d pastor of a church wld be left behind after rapture?i only pray dat people wnt kip falling prey of false doctrines...Greatpeter i admire ur courage...but pls dnt judge outrightly.we all v our reservations

donnie:

What is the wahala? Do you have a problem with people getting blessed?

Pls stop going off da handle. Why would i av a problem with pple getting blessed?I wonder why pple are getting uptight over issues that should not bother them? Only God knows those that serve him in spirit and in truth. So pls lets leave it.

Baby cute and Pretty H,

Why don't you come up with this your fine talk when we talk about pastor Adeboye or Bishop Oyedepo or even pastor Chris okotie:

"...and d bible also says that on d last day that people will cry out2God.."we performed miracles in your name,we called upon your name.."and God would turn2dem and say depart4rm me because i knw u not..d bible also states that by dere fruits ye shall know them..im admonishing u guys 2 continue believing d God u serve.and not base your belief on your pastors,bishops,prophets..havent u seen end time movies where d pastor of a church would be left behind after rapture?i only pray that people wnt kip falling prey of false doctrines...

Abeg let us hear.... we know already that there are false prophets . You don't need to remind us.

The truth still remains. God never sent a man without the necessary credentials. So enough grammer. If God called you, we want to see the demonstration of the Spirit and power in your life and ministry.

There is nothing wrong in packing up that business you call church and going ahead to submit yourself under the authority of one who is called.

See donnie stop fighting pples battles and stop going off the handle over nothin. I have said what i need to say and will continue to say it.

Donnie wats ur problem exactly?why r u picking on prettyh and myselfs post?

I really am not picking on your posts even though i used them for something like a reference point.neither am i fighting someone else's battles. I am  only dealing with certain mindsets which i think need to be corrected.

All i stand for is truth and nothing else. You see, it is easy to  move with the crowd because that way seems right. But when you check the Word, you will discover that the way most of us think is not according to the Word but according to the world.

Well, i guess i came down a bit too hard though. It is with the intention of directing peoples attention to the Word and giving the Word its rightful place of honour.

Most of the negative statements i have seen made here aginst the church are actually the thoughts of demons. It will take a spiritual mind to sense when the devil is talking even through the mouths of supposed God's people.

Consider for a moment.... Those who work in the miraculous so powerfully are quickly spoken evil of and called agents of satan. While those who pray and shout endlessly with no results are said to be true christians. Is that not what satan( the God of this world) will have us believe?

Check this out:

http://www.doveministries.com/frame.htm?URL=http://www.doveministries.com/tb-monitor.htm

It's interesting that opinions make us who we are. However, I wonder if anyone agrees that opinions do not stand with God - no matter how plausible they might sound? Is T. B. Joshua a man of God or not? Some would be quick to quote Matt.7:1 ("judge not"; but while that has it's value in context of the verses following, I do believe the Lord Jesus Himself asks us to judge. Hear Him: "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." (John 7:24). Too many times we are asked to accept a person as a man of God on the basis of outward improvements like dress codes and oratory powers of grammar. Okay, it's human to be nice and not controversial... but, I'm not too concerned with personalities; rather, if a man does not have God's faithful word, there would be a big question mark as to whether or not that man is truly God's servant.

By the way, how many people have heard of Dan Brown's novel, 'The Da Vinci Code'? Comments?

Dan Brown's novel, 'The Da Vinci Code' is only a fictional work. Don't get carried away by it.

Joftech,
Many thanks, but there was nothing in my post to sound like I was being carried away. I just wondered what folks in Naija think about the DC of Dan Brown.

donnie's post:
That is what etenal life is all about... you cannot recieve that life and remain sick or broke. This is the very life and nature of God!

I've heard this many times and similar lines, and this is just one of those extremes that keeps amazing me. Does it then mean that any believer who ever is sick did not receive eternal life? I wonder why some of the faithful servants of Christ actually experienced illnesses and hard finances.

Paul: (Gal 4:13) Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.

Paul: (2Ti 4:20) Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.

Concerning Timothy: (1Ti 5:23) Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

..and Paul: (Phi 4:12) I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.

Please note that I'm not advocating that believers must be sick and poor; but I can't agree with sweeping statements that you cannot be sick because you have received eternal life. Is there someone out there who cares for balance on this subject?

God Word is the only sure foundation

"for the lack of knowledge my people perish"

Not because he has not given tehm healing already!

Our healing has already been paid for by the death of Jesus christ.

By his wounds, we are healed!

Paul was not talking about physical infirmity there brother.

He was refering to something totally different. He was troubled by those who are refered to as 'Judaisers'. They sought to put those whom he had set free through the gospel back in bondage; commanding them to be circumcised and to keep the Law of Moses. This they did many times.

He also faught with the tendedcy to be proud because of the abundace of revelation he recieved from God.

The phrase, 'infirmity of the flesh' is like saying, 'pain in the neck' like we have it today.

Read Rom 8:11 and see Paul's revelation of divine health.

Paul suffered need by choice and not as a victim.

No balancing brother! At all times, ensure that you allign yourself with the mirror of God(His Word).

donnie: "Paul was not talking about physical infirmity there brother...He was troubled by those who are refered to as 'Judaisers'... The phrase, 'infirmity of the flesh' is like saying, 'pain in the neck' like we have it today. No balancing brother!"

There again, your choice to be extreme. Meanwhile, I've checked with Bible study materials and the phrase in Gal. 4:13 (infirmity of the flesh) was not an idiomatic expression like 'pain in the neck' nor does it point to some "judaisers"... it means just precisely as it reads - infirmity of the flesh, and most would agree that is its meaning in the text (see the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Vincent's Word Study, and Robertson's Word Pictures, to name a few). It is the same word and meaning in Luke 5:15 and I Tim.5:23 (and in the latter, Paul most definitely was pointing to the fact that Timothy suffered some physical illness of the body). However, infirmity in itself elsewhere in the New Testament does not always refer to sickness of the body: I know that for sure (see for example Rom.6:19, which would indicate a weakness of understanding to grasp the depths of Paul's discourse; and Rom.8:26, in context pointing to weakness in spiritual things, and that's where the Spirit comes to our help).

Romans 8:11. I do believe in divine health and have been enjoying that grace from God. But please read the other texts in my last post. I've known people who have prayed the prayer of faith for healing, but nothing seemed to change; rather, a few were more challenged and used more effectively in their witnessing and ministry. Unfortunately, the idea that if a person has eternal life, he or she cannot be sick has left some disillusioned and fearing that they did not have it (eternal life) afterall. God's word teaches that salvation is obtained by believing in the heart that Jesus Christ is Lord and confessing the same with the mouth (Rom. 10:8-13). I don't think that a person who has eternal life automatically becomes superhuman and therefore could never be affected by illness. Again, I'm not advocating that believers must be sick; my point is that, as long as we are in this mortal flesh, we are subject to imperfections and might sometimes be exposed to illnesses. We can be healed, thank God for that. But something is wrong with sweeping statements like the one you made earlier: "That is what etenal life is all about... you cannot recieve that life and remain sick or broke." Tell that to Paul or Timothy, and they would teach you the mind of Christ, dear brother.

With much love.
M.

Nice one there Seun, but I don't want to judge, I believe God knows those that are serving him(his own people). Any way, the man has really improved, thats a good thing about it all.

I said it before and i say it again, Paul and Timothy chose to live the way they lived. They were not victims. Are you trying to get me off God's Word to allign myself with you in talking like the world does?

Are you sure  you are enjoying divine health? I do not mean sick today and  then sick next 4 months. Divine  health is not something you get from God by  chance,  noooo not at all. You need to maintain your confession of faith, even when you face negative situtuations. Divine health is something you work out for yourself by Gods word. Not just the believing but the confession of God's Word!

1Peter 2:24
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.

If i was healed over 2000 years ago then i am still healed today. So let God alone be true and every man, symptom or devil be a liar!

If you do not say it, you will not experience it. That is the law of faith.

I refuse to be sick!  It dosnt matter what symptoms show up; i do not change my confession because i am not trying to be healed,  I am the healed of God. Healing is my birth right in Christ Jesus. The bible says, "by his wounds i was healed" , so therefore, i remain  healed no matter what i see or feel. Get that?

Faith is not subject to the five senses. It is the response of the human Spirit to the Word of God.

You cannot medidtate on the Word of God, speaking and muttering these Words long enough and remain sick or bound. It is  not possible.

The Word will  surely grow and prevail!!

@donnie, reading thru all your post, i can only conclude two things, u either pastor at tb joshua'a church, u are a a close relative or friend<jokes>, nwayz seriously, this is a site where everyone is entiled to their opinions ok.dont try washing someones opinion down just cos it dont go down well wit you, tkea

Donnie,

The remark on the web site cited was signed by the duo of Bishop (Dr) Benjamin Okoye and Alh. (Dr.) Usman Abdulkadir. Do you think an Alhaji is adept enough in the word of God to know the truth; and are mracles the yardstick by which a true man of God is identified?

I am defending my stand, not washing down anyones opinion. If in my defence their opinions are washed, fine.

If you check u'll see he came at me.

How come it's only donnie u saw?

Well for everyone information, I am a Pastor here in the USA, I am bringing this Man of God to US, I think most of the people who down the Man, have problems of there own, therefore they talk about someone else to cover themselves, for those spiritual retarded people, and I do mean retarded, they need to really know there bibles, and where it came from, they accused Jesus of being a devil, and hung him on a cross, so the man of God must take the back lashing of people also, keep listening and The Man of God will be here soon, I'll keep you posted.( I have a delegation from there here now with me) keep watching and you may be blessed.

I'm not particularly sure that I agree with your idea that just because someone performs miracles therefore he must necessarily be a man of God. The antichrist and false prophets will come with spectacular miracles that Jesus said if it were possible the very elect would be deceived (Matt.24:24). It's not in my place to judge as to whether or not TB Joshua is a man of God as I don' know much about him. Yet, I'm amazed that one in your position as pastor should refer to people as retarded (with emphasis). You may disagree with people or views that you read; but it just puts me off when leaders in the church speak the way you do  _{and that says so much about knowing "there bibles, and where it came from.}"

I use the word retarded, because so many of us Christan are just that, we are so bible smart, that were spiritually retarded. I believe the reason that so many of Gods people are still bound, even we are born again, is because of private interpretation of the word, we must separate what God says and man says, even when comes to the bible, take sometime my brothere and study your bible history, you'll find some suprising things, I believe it is the word of God but not the whole word, the red letters in the Bible which are the words of Christ, do you really believe thats all the son of God had to say? I don't think so, the bible tells us about the last days, but what are the last days, it appears we've been in the last days for over 2000 years. yet so people are still ignorant to Christ and his purpose. I I've studied for years, and earned my degree in theology, it thought my quite a bit, but mostly opened my eyes to the truth, that there so much more to our lord than we know, I hate to see brothers ans sisters judge each other, just by Hersey, it S actually a very hurting feeling, for none of us really know the whole truth, T B Joshua is much like the prophets old(strange) they were very different, as was Jesus, they did not follow the norm of the day, that why they were rejected, when Jesus performed miracles they called him a devil also, and if you know your bible well enough history has a way of repeating it's self, please don't think I'm protecting TB, for I'm not, but from what I've seen personally, he one of the most real men or women of God I've ever saw. We have problem judging people when there different form us. Jesus did tell us that in the last days, that many would come, false prophets, even with power to do miracles. but did he not also say that we should do greater works? well my brother were are the works. All the people that slander this man( and please reseach what I'm saying) have major problems, and have been caught in adulteress relationships, , stolen money, or been involved in scandalous situations, yet they point there finger in order to keep eyes off of themselves. I'm a man who loves controversy,why? because Jesus was very controversial, thats why they killed him, because he did not agree with the religious right. Our thinking in the church is far to the right, that we miss God everytime he wants to bless us.Our mindset must change in order to receive his promises.

secret_447:

I use the word retarded, because so many of us Christan are just that, we are so bible smart, that were spiritually retarded.

You've no excuse whatsoever to call people retarded the way you did, so don't even make matters worse by trying to justify it. Just because people don't agree with you is not reason enough for you as a pastor to throw words carelessly.

secret_447:

take sometime my brothere and study your bible history, you'll find some suprising things, I believe it is the word of God but not the whole word, the red letters in the Bible which are the words of Christ, do you really believe thats all the son of God had to say? I don't think so

So, tell me: what kind of a pastor are if you don't believe all in the Bible to be the word of God? Or, am I not reading you correctly? There's just no time to waste with you here - you said something wrong, and you need to be told that as a pastor such language was not expected of you.

Are you sure u dont have an opinion?

Dear Choice,

You do not seem to be taking a non-judgemental position. Infact, you seem to be of the opinion that he is not a man of God. Because if you were actually indifferent as you claim, you will just let the matter rest.

As for me, i do not comment on every issue or topic on Nairaland. I shoudnt take a stand or make an arguement if i am not sure of my opinion in  the matter.

Even Jesus, when they pointed out that there were others who were not of his fold performing miracles in his name, did not start quoting scriptures concerning the arrival of false prophets; he simply said, let him a alone, he who is not against us is on our side"

Why dont we just be like the master and let the matter rest afterall, I do not think secret_447's comment was in respose to people who have not passed any judgement against the man  but those who have.

let GOD be the judge, men shut up

Dear donnie,

First, if you'd read me well, you'd have seen that judging TB Joshua was not particularly my point. I wonder what you're doing here if you did not come to judge as well. No, I was not of any opinion about TB Joshua as you suppose - I clearly stated that it was "not in my place to judge as to whether or not TB Joshua is a man of God as I don't know much about him." You've tried to read into my statement things that I did not say.

Secondly, just because I don't necessarily agree with you or secret_447 does not make me a mute when he calls people retarded. He claimed to be a pastor for God's sake, and he had the temerity to try to defend his lack of grace and tact in addressing people as "retarded" with emphasis! I'll shut my mouth if that is what Jesus said we should do when people don't agree with us - please show me just one verse that justifies what secret_447 did by calling others 'retarded.' It doesn't matter to me who the people were that he was referring to; it is uncouth for someone with a badge to his shirt as "pastor" to have used such expression on any body on the forum.

Third, I still maintain that just because someone performs miracles does not necessarily follow that he is a man of God, and I quoted Matt.24:24 to that effect. I know and believe that some men of God are given the power to do signs and wonders; but we are told to 'test the spirits' because not every spirit is from God, even though they call on Jesus' Name (see I John 4:1). What is so offensive in people expressing their opinions of disagreement about whether someone is actually called of God or not, that a "pastor" would try to write them off as retarded? Please, don't even try to defend what is openly crass. secret_447 would've done better by apologising and then making meaningful contributions as to why he thought TB Joshua was whatever he thought of him. The anointing was not given to anyone to harrass people with sordid language - and that was what I tried to point out to secret_447.

Well, i know that the reason TB Josuah is here under scrutiny is because of the powerful miracles he performs in the name of Jesus.

I know that if he did not have the miraculous about him as he does, he will not be an issue on nairaland.

Oh Christians! they do not have a problem with those who throw water, oil, hankies etc all over the place but are against one man who has chosen to believe God and take him at his Word needing no assistance from material mediums, man or devils.

Dont you not know that there are more false preachers among the non-miracle performing pastors than there are among the miracle performing ones? These ones are quietly collecting money for so-called deliverance. Some are not born agian, nor do they know what the term 'born-again' means. Others came into ministry to make a living while some others came because they can speak clean english and have gone overseas for bible school.

How come we are attributing the more powerful works we see in the name of Jesus to devils. How come we question them? Ok where are the true miracles, like those of Peter and John who healed a lame man at the gate called beautiful, taking him by the hand and lifting him up?! Oh what boldness and faith in the all powerful name of Jesus!

No wonder atheists and freethinkers are happy when we condemn people like these, it only goes to butress their point that we are only praying, hoping , suffering and smiling with no results of power.

As for his doctrine, it i sound. His messages do not glorify himself or anyone but Jesus. They are simple but yet powerful. I get blessed each time i watch him.

Miracles wont take anybody anywhere neither would putting your faith in Man, People should shift their focus to God,

donnie:

Dont you not know that there are more false preachers among the non-miracle performing pastors than there are among the miracle performing ones? These ones are quietly collecting money for so-called deliverance. Some are not born agian, nor do they know what the term 'born-again' means. Others came into ministry to make a living while some others came because they can speak clean english and have gone overseas for bible school

Fascinating. I thought you had no intentions to judge, but forgive me if what you stated above is not a classic example of judging others. Doesn't it say in your own Bible that you should not condemn yourself in the very same things that you allow? (Rom.14:22). So, it's okay for you to condemn others, but sinful for others to disagree with your ideas about your choice of miracle worker?

donnie:

Ok where are the true miracles, like those of Peter and John who healed a lame man at the gate called beautiful, taking him by the hand and lifting him up?! Oh what boldness and faith in the all powerful name of Jesus!
No wonder atheists and freethinkers are happy when we condemn people like these, it only goes to butress their point that we are only praying, hoping , suffering and smiling with no results of power.

It is particularly sad that your ideas are lopsided as regards ministers - whether miracle on non-miracle workers. In the first place, you make it sound as if anyone who doesn't perform miracles is therfore not called of God. That idea is not sustained in the Bible, because John the Baptist (though he was not a pastor in the church) was mightily used of God even though he did not perform a single miracle (John 10:41); and in the church, the apostle Paul taught that not everyone works a miracle because we all have different gifts (I Cor. 12:10,29). The power to work a miracle is given by God to whomsoever He wills - it is not the minister who forces himself to perform miracles.

donnie:

Dont you not know that there are more false preachers among the non-miracle performing pastors than there are among the miracle performing ones? These ones are quietly collecting money for so-called deliverance.

And what would you say about those who perform miracles but whose focus on money is as equally hideous? How long ago was it reported that Benny Hinn was in Nigeria conducting a crusade that flopped on questions of how much money was being collected? (if you've forgotten, you can find the story here http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4619733.stm ). I don't care whose ox is gored or whatever big names they represent; the call of God upon a minister does not give him the license to use bad language (as secret_447 did) or use the ministry as a money-making enterprise. There are sound teachers who perform miracles and have a balanced view of money matters; and there are equally sound teachers who do not perform miracles and have godly respect for money matters. True servants of God will not focus on themselves, but rather turn people over to focus on God Himself.

Whatever your ideas or convictions, I don't make it my aim to judge TB Joshua (or any other minister) to be this, that or the other. Everyone who has worn the ministerial cloak is answerable to God. However, that does not mean that we should be gullible and swallow everything that is said or done in Jesus' Name. If I know nothing else, I know that my Bible says I should 'prove' (or, test) all things and hold onto that which is good (I Thes. 5:21). My salvation does not rest on what TB Joshua claims to be, or who is defending him. There is only one Name under heaven that saves - Jesus Christ (Acts 4:12).