kingkaspa:
Most of the stories in the supposed holy books are myths passed down to generations.

Emusan:


How does this address the OP

kingkaspa:
It is simple, all the stories as stated by the OP are myths.

Emusan:


From your own perspective!

kingkaspa:
Yeah, that's my perspective. The world will be a better place when we can all think out of the box and not just believe all we were taught as kids. Most of the stories in the holy books are middle east and roman mythologies that were modified and shaped to fit in to some individual's ideology some thousand years ago.

Emusan:


Since you've agreed that it's your perspective. I'm satisfied!

So kindly allow people to comment.

Thanks.

Emusan:


Since you've agreed that it's your perspective. I'm satisfied!

So kindly allow people to comment.

Thanks.

yazach:


why can't you continue with your orange as your name implies Since that is what you know how to do

Emusan:


Looking for opportunity to derail this thread, sorry such opportunity won't be given to you.

Address the OP.

Emusan:
I'll use the stone of this surah to kill two birds but I want the readers to have the following in mind as s/he reads through this article.
1) That Quran itself testifies that before Adam and Eve sinned they were living in PARADISE not on Earth.
2) That this conversation between Allah and Satan (Iblis) took place BEFORE Adam and Eve eventually SINNED.

Now in Allah’s command to the angels to bow down to Adam shortly after Adam was created, and what happened after that, is very interested to consider. This story was repeated at least seven times in the Qu’ran which can be found in Surah 2, 7, 15, 17, 18, 20, and 38.

But let me quote only Surah 15:35-37, 39.

35 "And the curse shall be on thee till the Day of Judgment."
36 (Iblis) said: "O my Lord! Give me then respite till the Day the (dead) are raised."
37 (Allah) said: "Respite is granted thee…
39 “…I will make (wrong) fair-seeming to them on the earth, and I will put them all in the wrong Y. Ali

Satan seems to know the unseen!
Here we see Allah talking about "The Day of Judgement," (When Adam and Eve were just created without sin or ever sinned) though one can say well it’s because Allah is All-knowing but the next statement by Satan is alarming, why? We see Satan talking about “The Day the (DEAD) are raised”, really!
How come Satan knows that there will be RESURRECTION of the dead when DEATH has not even occurred nor the event that leads to death had happened? In fact Satan reinforced his statement by saying “I will make (wrong) fair-seeming to THEM ON EARTH”. ON EARTH!!! How come? Does Satan actually know that Adam and Eve will sin and cast out from PARADISE to EARTH? Whereas Allah said this angels don't know what he knows.

Satan was led astray by Allah
In the same Surah I quoted above verse 39 reads “(Iblis) said: ‘O my Lord! Because Thou hast put me in the wrong,…’” Y. Ali

We see here that Allah led Satan astray.
Well if this translation seems not be cleared enough let’s see how other translations rendered this particular statement.

“He said: My Lord! Because Thou hast made life evil to me,...” M. Habib Shakir
“He said: My Lord! Because Thou hast sent me astray,…” M. Pickthall
“Iblis (Satan)] said: "O my Lord! Because you misled me,…” Mohsin Khan.
“He said 'O my Lord, I swear of that. You led me astray,…” Ahadees

The question one can ask is, how did Allah mislead Satan? Well Quran itself seems to have the answer when it says ONLY ALLAH should be bowing to NO other being, so Satan actually obeying the word of Allah but unfortunately Satan has to get the reward for his obedient by being cast out from paradise.

(Satan be like, since we’re being told that NO Being should be bowing to except Allah, this one now to bow for Adam again might be a test from Allah to know who will fall victim let me quickly obey the first instruction.)

Emusan:
I'll use the stone of this surah to kill two birds but I want the readers to have the following in mind as s/he reads through this article.
1) That Quran itself testifies that before Adam and Eve sinned they were living in PARADISE not on Earth.
2) That this conversation between Allah and Satan (Iblis) took place BEFORE Adam and Eve eventually SINNED.

Now in Allah’s command to the angels to bow down to Adam shortly after Adam was created, and what happened after that, is very interested to consider. This story was repeated at least seven times in the Qu’ran which can be found in Surah 2, 7, 15, 17, 18, 20, and 38.

But let me quote only Surah 15:35-37, 39.

35 "And the curse shall be on thee till the Day of Judgment."
36 (Iblis) said: "O my Lord! Give me then respite till the Day the (dead) are raised."
37 (Allah) said: "Respite is granted thee…
39 “…I will make (wrong) fair-seeming to them on the earth, and I will put them all in the wrong Y. Ali

Satan seems to know the unseen!
Here we see Allah talking about "The Day of Judgement," (When Adam and Eve were just created without sin or ever sinned) though one can say well it’s because Allah is All-knowing but the next statement by Satan is alarming, why? We see Satan talking about “The Day the (DEAD) are raised”, really!
How come Satan knows that there will be RESURRECTION of the dead when DEATH has not even occurred nor the event that leads to death had happened? In fact Satan reinforced his statement by saying “I will make (wrong) fair-seeming to THEM ON EARTH”. ON EARTH!!! How come? Does Satan actually know that Adam and Eve will sin and cast out from PARADISE to EARTH? Whereas Allah said this angels don't know what he knows.

Satan was led astray by Allah
In the same Surah I quoted above verse 39 reads “(Iblis) said: ‘O my Lord! Because Thou hast put me in the wrong,…’” Y. Ali

We see here that Allah led Satan astray.
Well if this translation seems not be cleared enough let’s see how other translations rendered this particular statement.

“He said: My Lord! Because Thou hast made life evil to me,...” M. Habib Shakir
“He said: My Lord! Because Thou hast sent me astray,…” M. Pickthall
“Iblis (Satan)] said: "O my Lord! Because you misled me,…” Mohsin Khan.
“He said 'O my Lord, I swear of that. You led me astray,…” Ahadees

The question one can ask is, how did Allah mislead Satan? Well Quran itself seems to have the answer when it says ONLY ALLAH should be bowing to NO other being, so Satan actually obeying the word of Allah but unfortunately Satan has to get the reward for his obedient by being cast out from paradise.

(Satan be like, since we’re being told that NO Being should be bowing to except Allah, this one now to bow for Adam again might be a test from Allah to know who will fall victim let me quickly obey the first instruction.)

Anas09:
@yazach.
You know for sure that ur god is false yet u still follow? If not, address the Ops.
Don't bring that tactics to derail it. Why will allah be talking abt dead, resurrection and judgement when sin, which brought death has not been committed yet?

Why did allah, after telling everyone to bowdown to him alone, turn around to command angels to bowdown to worship Adam? Why did he purnish satan for bowing down only to allah, but not to adam?
Answer and stop being stupid.

Repentance96:
Iblis does not have any knowledge of the unseen, except when informed by Allah or through the power of Allah.

I don't know why you think that Iblis when he was the leader of the angels, knew facts of the unseen [size=14pt]just because he knew that Man was destined to Earth[/size] unless I assume you are very ignorant when it comes to the Quran.
Iblis knew it simply because Allah informed the angels (of whom he lead):
[i]And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know. [/i]2:30

Allah never previously commanded the angels to bow to Him only alone.

The angels simply followed the orders of Allah, and in Islam the angels are thought to be different from Mankind and Jinnkind in that they are not burdened with a freedom of choice. Iblis was and is a Jinn.

Emusan:


So it was Allah who told Iblis that there will be RESURRECTION OF THE DEATH when the act that brought death on earth has never even happened.

Please did Allah also tell Iblis that he'll be one who will deceive Adam and Eve?

Lol...Allah's plan is to create Adam on earth but shortly after creating them, Adam and Eve were given a GARDEN IN PARADISE.

The key point you're missing is this, Iblis says "the Day the (dead) are raised"

Was it Allah who told Iblis this also?

Imaging, and you're the who said maybe I'm ignorant of Qur'an but we can see how this perfectly described you.

This is from the verse you quoted "while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?"

So you mean these angels are carrying out this specific task while STANDING or just feel relax on bed not by bowing down


Your post full of funny statements, so until Allah commanded Angels to declare his praise and sanctify him they ONLY do so, no Angel can do so on his own accord

Whereas we see Angel having his own choice in the Quran.

Emusan:


So it was Allah who told Iblis that there will be RESURRECTION OF THE DEATH when the act that brought death on earth has never even happened.

Please did Allah also tell Iblis that he'll be one who will deceive Adam and Eve?



Lol...Allah's plan is to create Adam on earth but shortly after creating them, Adam and Eve were given a GARDEN IN PARADISE.

The key point you're missing is this, Iblis says "the Day the (dead) are raised"

Was it Allah who told Iblis this also?




Imaging, and you're the who said maybe I'm ignorant of Qur'an but we can see how this perfectly described you.

This is from the verse you quoted "while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?"

So you mean these angels are carrying out this specific task while STANDING or just feel relax on bed not by bowing down



Your post full of funny statements, so until Allah commanded Angels to declare his praise and sanctify him they ONLY do so, no Angel can do so on his own accord

Whereas we see Angel having his own choice in the Quran.

Repentance96:


Unfortunately you are confusing Islamic theology with elements of Pauline Philosophy. Like the Jews, we Muslims don't believe in Original Sin (we don't take Paul's words as God's words). We believe that every soul is originally pure in the purest nature. We believe that Sin cannot be inherited, that every man bears the consequences of his actions. We believe that God is Most Merciful, and that He is a Great Forgiver.

We believe that it was always the plan of God to divide the passage of time, once He had begun it into two distinct phases. One temporary, the other eternal and everlasting. One where God is "veiled" and the other when all Sovereignty will be for him. The Quran repeats the fact that every soul will taste death. At the point of division everything (everyone plus everything - all the earths and all the heavens) will be destroyed and only God shall remain. Then the Resurrection, and Judgment.

The idea that death came into the world with man is baseless. The Quran acknowledges the presence of beasts before Mankind and throughout the universe. Death is predestined for everything and everyone except the Eternal One.



I believe yes, Iblis knew that Adam and Eve was destined to Earth. He might have known that Adam and Eve would be swayed into sin, and so equal him in sin. He would have been a witness to the covenant Allah established between Him and each and one of us before birth. God clearly informed Iblis of success with regards to a portion from Mankind

39. [Iblis (Satan)] said: "O my Lord! Because you misled me, I shall indeed adorn the path of error for them (mankind) on the earth, and I shall mislead them all.
40. "Except Your chosen, (guided) slaves among them."
41. (Allah) said: "This is the Way which will lead straight to Me."
42. "Certainly, you shall have no authority over My slaves, except those who follow you of the Ghawin (Mushrikun and those who go astray, criminals, polytheists, and evil-doers, etc.).
43. "And surely, Hell is the promised place for them all.
44. "It (Hell) has seven gates, for each of those gates is a (special) class (of sinners) assigned.
(Al-Quran, Surah Al-Hijr).





This is the beauty of Islamic theology. This is the Truth. We were meant for Paradise but destined to be tested on earth. Why test us though? Because of Satan's challenge. God expelled him for disobedience, so God should also expel anyone that disobeys him. He lets us prove ourselves better than Satan and his allies on earth. God's promise to Satan is that - take all your friends with you to Hell and I'll take my true slaves to myself.

Malik Muwatta
Book 46, Number 46.1.1:
Yahya related to me from Malik from Abu'z-Zinad from al-Araj from Abu Hurayra that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Adam and Musa argued and Adam got the better of Musa. Musa rebuked Adam, 'You are Adam who led people astray and brought them out of the Garden.' Adam said to him, 'You are Musa to whom Allah gave knowledge of everything and whom he chose above people with His message.' He said, 'Yes.' He said, 'Do you then censure me for a matter which was decreed for me before I was created?' "

This matter (the "Fall" was predestined so as to be just with regards to Iblis. God has to be consistent with his judgement. If He condemns Iblis for just one Sin, He cannot give a free pass to us. As for the sin itself, Adam bettered Satan and asked for repentance and forgiveness while blaming himself. Satan never asked for forgiveness, instead he blamed God himself. Adam blamed his own self (his free will), while Iblis blamed predestination. This is the essence of the sixth article of faith in the Islamic creed.



Yes. Iblis could have easily deduced this. If you know that God intends a Day of Judgement, and that death occurs on earth you can easily deduce that God intends Resurrection. Anyways, the angels immediately asked God when He first broke the news of Adam's role on earth why God intended bloodshed and evil on earth as per their understanding. Evolution involves bloodshed and freewill involved evil, why should God introduce man also to this? God answers them in a marvelous way if you read the entire passage.




I think English is not your first language but even so you must have understood what I had written. God didn't command the angels to bow to Him ONLY, there was no command to reject anyone else because firstly there wasn't anyone else and secondly the angels have no choice in the matter anyway. God ordered them to bow to Adam, so they all bowed except Iblis who was a Jinn who thought God was being unjust.

It is only in our Shariah that bowing down to creation is haraam. Previously literally bowing was allowed to Kings, prophets and their likes but not now. Angels "bowed" to creation because God commanded to do so. Their action is not one of worship to creation, but one of obedience to God. They all accepter that Adam has the potential to better them in the eyes of Allah. This acceptance and action is also a way in which they glorified the works of Allah.

Repentance96:
Unfortunately you are confusing Islamic theology with elements of Pauline Philosophy.

Like the Jews, we Muslims don't believe in Original Sin (we don't take Paul's words as God's words). We believe that every soul is originally pure in the purest nature.

We believe that Sin cannot be inherited, that every man bears the consequences of his actions. We believe that God is Most Merciful, and that He is a Great Forgiver.

We believe that it was always the plan of God to divide the passage of time, once He had begun it into two distinct phases. One temporary, the other eternal and everlasting. One where God is "veiled" and the other when all Sovereignty will be for him. The Quran repeats the fact that every soul will taste death. [size=14pt]At the point of division everything (everyone plus everything - all the earths and all the heavens) will be destroyed and only God shall remain.[/size] Then the Resurrection, and Judgment.

The idea that death came into the world with man is baseless. The Quran acknowledges the presence of beasts before Mankind and throughout the universe. Death is predestined for everything and everyone except the Eternal One.

I believe yes, Iblis knew that Adam and Eve was destined to Earth. He might have known that Adam and Eve would be swayed into sin, and so equal him in sin. He would have been a witness to the covenant Allah established between Him and each and one of us before birth. God clearly informed Iblis of success with regards to a portion from Mankind

39. [Iblis (Satan)] said: [size=14pt]"O my Lord! Because you misled me,[/size] I shall indeed adorn the path of error for them (mankind) on the earth, and I shall mislead them all.
40. "Except Your chosen, (guided) slaves among them."
41. (Allah) said: "This is the Way which will lead straight to Me."
42. "Certainly, you shall have no authority over My slaves, except those who follow you of the Ghawin (Mushrikun and those who go astray, criminals, polytheists, and evil-doers, etc.).
43. "And surely, Hell is the promised place for them all.
44. "It (Hell) has seven gates, for each of those gates is a (special) class (of sinners) assigned.
(Al-Quran, Surah Al-Hijr).

This is the beauty of Islamic theology. This is the Truth. We were meant for Paradise but destined to be tested on earth.

Why test us though? Because of Satan's challenge. God expelled him for disobedience, so God should also expel anyone that disobeys him.

He lets us prove ourselves better than Satan and his allies on earth. God's promise to Satan is that - take all your friends with you to Hell and I'll take my true slaves to myself.

Malik Muwatta
Book 46, Number 46.1.1:
Yahya related to me from Malik from Abu'z-Zinad from al-Araj from Abu Hurayra that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Adam and Musa argued and Adam got the better of Musa. Musa rebuked Adam, [size=14pt]'You are Adam who led people astray and brought them out of the Garden.'[/size] Adam said to him, 'You are Musa to whom Allah gave knowledge of everything and whom he chose above people with His message.' He said, 'Yes.' He said, 'Do you then censure me for a matter which was decreed for me before I was created?' "

This matter (the "Fall" was predestined so as to be just with regards to Iblis. God has to be consistent with his judgement.

If He condemns Iblis for just one Sin, He cannot give a free pass to us. As for the sin itself, Adam bettered Satan and asked for repentance and forgiveness while blaming himself. Satan never asked for forgiveness, instead he blamed God himself. Adam blamed his own self (his free will), while Iblis blamed predestination. This is the essence of the sixth article of faith in the Islamic creed.

Yes. Iblis could have easily deduced this. If you know that God intends a Day of Judgement, and that death occurs on earth you can easily deduce that God intends Resurrection. Anyways, the angels immediately asked God when He first broke the news of Adam's role on earth why God intended bloodshed and evil on earth as per their understanding. Evolution involves bloodshed and freewill involved evil, why should God introduce man also to this? God answers them in a marvelous way if you read the entire passage.

I think English is not your first language but even so you must have understood what I had written. God didn't command the angels to bow to Him ONLY, there was no command to reject anyone else because [size=14pt]firstly there wasn't anyone else[/size] and secondly the angels have no choice in the matter anyway. God ordered them to bow to Adam, so they all bowed except Iblis who was a Jinn who thought God was being unjust.

It is only in our Shariah that bowing down to creation is haraam. Previously literally bowing was allowed to Kings, prophets and their likes but not now. Angels "bowed" to creation because God commanded to do so. Their action is not one of worship to creation, but one of obedience to God. They all accepter that Adam has the potential to better them in the eyes of Allah. This acceptance and action is also a way in which they glorified the works of Allah.

Emusan:


You called it philosophy but let's see how his philosophy surpasses that of Allah.

So if there's no original sin and every SOUL was originally PURE, where does sin come from?
From this statement of yours "...pure in the purest nature" we can infer that SIN was not in the plan of MAN

Lol...
If sin can't be inherited and Allah is a great forgiver, why Allah didn't leave Adam and Eve in the so called paradise? AFTER ALL Quran claimed that Adam was forgiven
What did Allah see in Adam and Eve that made him banished them out of paradise after their sin has been forgiven?

Please please, the @bold statement not only laughable but utmost ridiculous, in fact it's just too funny that an educated person can reason in such way.

How did Iblis know that every soul will taste death, when is he Allah?
Where in the Quran that it was written that Allah explained in detail how the end of creation will be for the jins and angels?

Imaging everything (including everyone, earth and heavens will be destroyed) before resurrection, and judgment.
Please will Muhammad and the pious saints who are in heaven now according to Muslim also be destroyed?
Kia, no wonder Quran says ALL OF YOU (Muslims) shall not escape HELL.

Again after Allah destroyed EVERYTHING including Muhammad, he will then RECREATE (because it won't be resurrection again) everybody back to life and then Judge them and re-destroy them back by condemning them to HELL again. What a wasted effort and poor logic.

Ehh ehh, including the just Angels are predestined to past through death when they're ALWAYS IN OBEDIENT TO ALLAH.

Now you are using uncertainty word "He MIGHT"
If Iblis might have known that Adam and Eve will equal him in sin as it implies that Adam and Eve haven't been created, it proves my point that Iblis knows the unseen because Iblis ONLY SINNED when he failed to bow for Adam shortly after Adam was created.

You ignored the @bold part in the OP which I thought I'll remind you but you've finally re-posted it.
@underline-Why will Allah mislead Iblis?

Very funny of you, so after Allah pronounced HELL to those who will dance to tune of Iblis, Allah will later SEND ALL HIS FAITHFUL SLAVES TO EXTINCTION by destroying EVERYTHING including Muhammad and recreated them back, so what is the different between the punishment of those who follow Iblis from those Allah's slaves?

Very ridiculous theology! After Allah's faithful slaves pass his test, Allah will later DESTROY ALL OF THEM before recreated them back.

Then if this is true, Allah is not a great forgiver because I can't phantom claimed to forgive someone and still PUNISH the person.
Iblis disobeyed and he didn't ask for forgiveness Allah casting him out of heaven is justified but Adam and Eve disobeyed and asked for forgiveness, Allah forgave them AND STILL CAST THEM OUT of heaven. What is the different between the judgement of Iblis who isn't a repentance and Adam and Eve who repented and got forgiveness from Allah?

Then after Satan takes all his friends to HELL, Allah will later destroy both HIS OWN TRUE SLAVES and ALL Satan's FRIENDS together.
Which means the judgement that meant for Satan must spread to Allah's true slaves likewise.

This is an eyes opener for a true seeker of the True God.
Notice how the @bold part forfeited the claim that there's no ORIGINAL SIN. Musa used PEOPLE which means MANKIND here and he said ADAM BROUGHT THEM OUT OF THE GARDEN when in reality it was ONLY Adam and Eve that were cast out of the garden!
According to this Hadith, Musa himself knows that, it was as a result of Adam's sin that PEOPLE LED ASTRAY (BEGIN TO SIN) and SUFFERING ON EARTH TODAY. How dare you challenge the authoritative and inspired word of Apostle Paul?

I know majority of Muslims didn't know the meaning of "ORIGINAL SIN" whereas ORIGINAL SIN simply means everything MAN experienced on earth today was as a result of ADAM's DISOBEDIENT. Can you see how your Islamic theology also prove ORIGINAL SIN to be true?

He condemned iblis JUST FOR ONE SIN why Iblis never asked for forgiveness AND also CONDEMNED Adam and Eve JUST FOR ONE SIN after they asked for forgiveness and being forgiven yet you call him a great forgiver.

Imaging evolution involves bloodshed when man is not yet on earth or you mean people are already living on earth through the spontaneous soup of evolution before Allah later created Adam

Imaging the @bold, so if there's no anyone else Jinns and other angels are not being right? According to Islam theology, Jinn and Angel are not the same.

Lol...so those Kings and prophets are not creatures but divine that's why Allah will allow it for them and later reverted it for you.

Not one of WORSHIP! what kind obedience are you talking about here?

Imaging they all accepted that Adam has the potential to better them in the eyes of Allah whereas the angels are the messengers of Allah who can see Allah, talk to Allah but Adam can't do all these.

Repentance96:


It is but one man's fallible understanding of the life and death of Jesus (as), one man who never met the Blessed Messiah in front of independent witnesses and then gave contradictory accounts of his conversion. One man whose teachings contradict the Gospels as we know it, who argues with the disciples and who parted ways with James and the Early Church.




Yes. In the absence of external (demonic forces) man will be innocent and pure. All babies are born pure in the state of fithra and it is external forces that influence the soul in a negative way. If not for Satan, we wouldn't have sinned. Sin came from a conscious being that challenged the justice of God. We shouldn't lay the blame on Iblis though, we should accept that Adam and Eve sinned after letting their pure natures be tainted with false promises.

In Islam sin is not a state but kufr (rebellion) is. Sin is temporary injustice in the eyes of God. It is not a state we all are in.




Did Allah then not promise to return those who reject satan for Paradise? That is the forgiveness but His Forgiveness does not contradict His Justice, so He promises to put all of us, each and one of us, to the test. The consequence of Adam's sin was removed from Adam (he is returned back to Paradise), but the consequence for all of us were not. This is not due to Adam's sin though (as the Hadith clearly clarifies) - it was a matter predestined.



The Quran does not say that - instead it says that all of us (Muslims) will have to pass through it. This is in reference to the literal bridge over the Fire, as well as the figurative means by which we attain Paradise.

Everything will be destroyed and all souls will taste death, before everything is recreated as a new creation and all souls resurrected. By "everything" I mean everything in this world - where time and space is bound by God's laws of nature. As to Paradise and Hell, they are of the other world where time and space do not function the same way as in this world. For example we believe that all the Prophets (sal) are alive but in their graves. At the same time we believe that they met in heaven. How is that possible? That is because Paradise does not run like our world does. It is not bound by the same laws of nature. Bilal was alive on earth, but the Prophet (Sal) heard his footsteps when he visited the other world. I hope you get it. All angels, Jinn and man will face death again in the Day of Judgement while this world will be transformed to something new.



Only the evil of the evil will dwell eternally in Hell. It is not a wasted effort. It is justice served.



Again why Allah didn't leave Adam and Eve in PARADISE after he forgave them?

As I asked you at the beginning - do not confuse yourself by falsely premising Islamic theology on the phrase "the wages of sin is death". That is a premise in Pauline Philosophy, and it is not found in Judaism and Islam. Unless you are weak in your reasoning skills, you mustn't assume certain statements which you know is not a premise in the argument you are trying to refute. You are denying that death can be passed onto beings free of sin, as if death was the result of sin. What is death, anyway? Does it always have the same meaning? Is it the soul being separated from the body? Is it an everlasting state of no life? Is it the act of losing conciousness? What is it for it to be the wages of sin itself!




He might have known that Adam and Eve will equal him him in sin when he set out to seduce them into sin. God predicted to him that he would succeed anyway.




Come on, did Allah say that He misleaded Iblis? It was Iblis saying that. He was the first one to bring up the argument of determinism vs freewill. Iblis thought that he cannot bow down because Allah designed him that way. This is wrong and false and dangerous to think. This is the crown of Atheism and the Rebellion against God. Denying freedom of choice is disbelief in God.

Adam on the other hand fully acknowledges his freedom of choice and thus repents and his repentance is accepted.

If you don't get it please listen to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpZH1lQmuE4



Everyone will face death. Those who follow Iblis will then be thrown into a state between life and death in the Fire. Those who reject Iblis will be rewarded with eternal life in both spirit and flesh.





You are very shallow in your understanding.




I can't believe that you are asking this question. Adam and Eve will enjoy eternal life in Paradise while Iblis will enjoy tormenting himself and his followers in Hell forever and ever.





What do you think "destroying" means? Cannot Allah destroy everyone and create them in new forms in a new creation before the Day of Judgement?



Original sin is debunked in the very same hadith. It is not a sin that lead us to earth, it is the plan and decision of God. Earth is not our permanent home, it is only a testing ground. This life is not eternal. Allah created us from earth, for earth but when we are returned to him we will be as a new creation.




Everything? Disobedience? Where does Iblis come into the picture then? So according to Paul Adam is in hell?

Christians themselves differ as to whether or not Original Sin is a true concept, and what exactly it is. You cannot deny this





Yes. Adam and Eve was promised eternal life after they repented. But for us, their children, we have to prove ourselves on earth.

I think you are not aware that Adam and Eve repented only AFTER they came to earth. Their repentance was accepted because they blamed themselves. So yes the consequences of their sin was eliminated and transformed by their repentance. Sin is not inherited (no son will carry the burden of his father), but the consequences of sin can. We are still born in state of purity and this belief contradicts the mainstream understanding of Original Sin.




The beasts of the earth were - for example dinosaurs. The angels saw how evolution involved a lot of bloodshed - that's one possible reason why they questioned God (God allowed them to).




I mean that their weren't any other possible objects of worship - so no risk of shirk even if they had free will.




No. Bowing down was not considered an act of worship when done under the command of the God being worshipped.



We do works in obedience to God.



That's why Iblis didn't bow. The angels accepted that God knew better than them, so when He says to bow they all bowed. Iblis meanwhile acts as the champion of the Rebellious (atheists and their likes). He used his God given sense of rationality, forgetting that it was the same Creator asking him to bow down, to argue that what was being asked was unjust and illogical.

Anas09:
I just ve alil problem.
Adam and Moses having a conversation? Like seriously? Moses used a Time Machine to teleport back to Adams time to have a discussion with him?
A generation is 100yrs. How many generations spanned from adam to Abraham? From Abraham to Moses how many generations? Like I said, except am sick in my head, No one shd have the temerity to tell me that the koran is accurate and True. That book is full of shit and intelligent people just accept it.

Mose having a conversation with Adam is like me in 2015 having a conversation with Alexandert the Great.

Repentance96:
It is but one man's fallible understanding of the life and death of Jesus (as), one man who never met the Blessed Messiah in front of independent witnesses and then gave contradictory accounts of his conversion. One man whose teachings contradict the Gospels as we know it, who argues with the disciples and who parted ways with James and the Early Church.

Yes. In the absence of external (demonic forces) man will be innocent and pure. All babies are born pure in the state of fithra and it is external forces that influence the soul in a negative way. [size=14pt]If not for Satan, we wouldn't have sinned[/size] Sin came from a conscious being that challenged the justice of God. We shouldn't lay the blame on Iblis though, [size=14pt]we should accept that Adam and Eve sinned after letting their pure natures be tainted with false promises.[/size]

In Islam sin is not a state but kufr (rebellion) is. Sin is temporary injustice in the eyes of God. It is not a state we all are in.

Did Allah then not promise to return those who reject satan for Paradise? That is the forgiveness but His Forgiveness does not contradict His Justice, so He promises to put all of us, each and one of us, to the test. The consequence of Adam's sin was removed from Adam (he is returned back to Paradise), but the consequence for all of us were not. This is not due to Adam's sin though (as the Hadith clearly clarifies) - it was a matter predestined.

The Quran does not say that - instead it says that all of us (Muslims) will have to pass through it. This is in reference to the literal bridge over the Fire, as well as the figurative means by which we attain Paradise.

Everything will be destroyed and all souls will taste death, before everything is recreated as a new creation and all souls resurrected. By [size=14pt]"everything" I mean everything in this world - where time and space is bound by God's laws of nature. As to Paradise and Hell, they are of the other world where time and space do not function the same way as in this world.[/size] For example we believe that all the Prophets (sal) are alive but in their graves. At the same time we believe that they met in heaven. How is that possible? That is because Paradise does not run like our world does. It is not bound by the same laws of nature. Bilal was alive on earth, but the Prophet (Sal) heard his footsteps when he visited the other world. I hope you get it. All angels, Jinn and man will face death again in the Day of Judgement while this world will be transformed to something new.

Only the evil of the evil will dwell eternally in Hell. It is not a wasted effort. It is justice served.

As I asked you at the beginning - do not confuse yourself by falsely premising Islamic theology on the phrase "the wages of sin is death". That is a premise in Pauline Philosophy, and it is not found in Judaism and Islam. Unless you are weak in your reasoning skills, you mustn't assume certain statements which you know is not a premise in the argument you are trying to refute. You are denying that death can be passed onto beings free of sin, [size=14pt]as if death was the result of sin.[/size]

What is death, anyway? Does it always have the same meaning? Is it the soul being separated from the body? Is it an everlasting state of no life? Is it the act of losing conciousness? What is it for it to be the wages of sin itself!

He might have known that Adam and Eve will equal him him in sin when he set out to seduce them into sin. God predicted to him that he would succeed anyway.

Come on, did Allah say that He misleaded Iblis? It was Iblis saying that. He was the first one to bring up the argument of determinism vs freewill. Iblis thought that he cannot bow down because Allah designed him that way. This is wrong and false and dangerous to think. This is the crown of Atheism and the Rebellion against God. Denying freedom of choice is disbelief in God.

Adam on the other hand fully acknowledges his freedom of choice and thus repents and his repentance is accepted.

If you don't get it please listen to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpZH1lQmuE4

Everyone will face death. Those who follow Iblis will then be thrown into a state between life and death in the Fire. Those who reject Iblis will be rewarded with eternal life in both spirit and flesh.

You are very shallow in your understanding.

I can't believe that you are asking this question. Adam and Eve will enjoy eternal life in Paradise while Iblis will enjoy tormenting himself and his followers in Hell forever and ever.

What do you think "destroying" means? Cannot Allah destroy everyone and create them in new forms in a new creation before the Day of Judgement?

Original sin is debunked in the very same hadith. It is not a sin that lead us to earth, it is the plan and decision of God. Earth is not our permanent home, it is only a testing ground. This life is not eternal. Allah created us from earth, for earth but when we are returned to him we will be as a new creation.

Everything? Disobedience? Where does Iblis come into the picture then? So according to Paul Adam is in hell?

Christians themselves differ as to whether or not Original Sin is a true concept, and what exactly it is. You cannot deny this

Yes. Adam and Eve was promised eternal life after they repented. But for us, their children, we have to prove ourselves on earth.

[size=14pt]I think you are not aware that Adam and Eve repented only AFTER they came to earth.[/size] Their repentance was accepted because they blamed themselves. So yes the consequences of their sin was eliminated and transformed by their repentance. Sin is not inherited (no son will carry the burden of his father), but the consequences of sin can. We are still born in state of purity and this belief contradicts the mainstream understanding of Original Sin.

The beasts of the earth were - for example dinosaurs. The angels saw how evolution involved a lot of bloodshed - that's one possible reason why they questioned God (God allowed them to).

I mean that their weren't any other possible objects of worship - so no risk of shirk even if they had free will.

No. Bowing down was not considered an act of worship when done under the command of the God being worshipped.

We do works in obedience to God.
That's why Iblis didn't bow. The angels accepted that God knew better than them, so when He says to bow they all bowed. Iblis meanwhile acts as the champion of the Rebellious (atheists and their likes). He used his God given sense of rationality, forgetting that it was the same Creator asking him to bow down, to argue that what was being asked was unjust and illogical.

Repentance96:


I don't know if you are a believer of the unseen or not, but the religious followers of Abraham (AS) believe in an afterlife where we can meet those before us and those after us if God wills to, and we also believe in the truth of Revelation and in Prophets and their ability to have some firsthand knowledge of the unseen by the permission of Allah.

Anas09:
@yazach.
You know for sure that ur god is false yet u still follow? If not, address the Ops.
Don't bring that tactics to derail it. Why will allah be talking abt dead, resurrection and judgement when sin, which brought death has not been committed yet?

Why did allah, after telling everyone to bowdown to him alone, turn around to command angels to bowdown to worship Adam? Why did he purnish satan for bowing down only to allah, but not to adam?
Answer and stop being stupid.

yazach:


Emusan why can't you continue with your orange as your name implies (Emusan) Since that is what you know how to do

"Drink Orange"

plappville:


[s]Bro allah is the Arabian idol na. Among the 360. Allah was consarved. Thats how islam sprang up... [/s]