"All of life’s a stage" It’s an old question in philosophy and religion:

Is our experience of life in this world real?

It sounds a little crazy to ask the question, doesn’t it? It makes you think of people who are mentally unbalanced, who can’t tell the difference between the world they live in and the hallucinations that run around in their heads.

What do people mean when they ask if our experience of life in this world is real?

There are many questions hiding behind the simple world “real”

Do our senses give us an accurate picture of the world outside of us, uncolored by our personal experience and expectations? Here we’re asking whether we get a clear picture of the “real” world, or whether we’re at least partially living in a world colored by our fears and desires.

Is this world and our experience of it a superficial or limited experience of a deeper, larger, more profound reality? What if our life on this earth is just a brief moment in a much greater existence. What if there are other dimensions of existence that we live in before and after we come to this world? If true, then our life on earth has a certain reality to it, but it pales when compared with our broader existence.

Is this world planned, structured, and orchestrated with some purpose in mind? This question is an add-on to the last one. What if our time in this world is somewhat scripted and purposeful. What if we’re here to learn some lesson, or accomplish some spiritual task before moving on to another existence? If so, this world is real to a point. Like a play or a simulation, it may have meaning, but there’s so much going on beyond the stage and beyond the simulator.

Is this world an illusion? Does this world, like a magician, use some kind of misdirection to get me to focus on the more trivial aspects of existence and ignore more fundamental, more important aspects of existence?

What’s the difference?

Ok. What’s the difference whether this world is real?
What’s the difference to me right now if there are other realities that I’m not aware of.
Even if I was some sort of lab rat being observed, who cares?
I’m here, I’m alive. I’ve got to play the game according to what I can see.

I could imagine a thousand alternate stories for what’s beyond this world.
But they might be pure fantasy. Seems better then, to just focus on what I can see, doesn’t it? Even if we’re like the people in The Matrix, serving as unwitting but happy slaves, wouldn’t we rather not know?

Brave new world, Maybe, or maybe not. It depends.

It depends on whether we have the ability to see beyond the world that we’re currently living in.

It depends on whether we have the capability to use knowledge of other realities to change ourselves and this world to become something much greater.

If we can rise up, take off the blinders and live differently, then there is a point in knowing whether there’s more to the world than what we’ve been told.

Not yet
Let’s say this all sounds pretty far fetched to you, and way beyond your experience.
What then?

Well, I have one more uncomfortable version of “is life real” to throw at you.

Am I living the life that I’m capable of living with all my talents? Have I fully explored the possibilities within me?

Can any of us really say that we’re living life 100%, and living up to the possibilities hidden away within us?

Can you and I live lives dramatically more powerful than the lives we’re living now?

If we feel and know that we can find and live a greatness that we’ve only seen hints of, then our current lives must be looked at as shadows of the real life that we can live in this world.

The answer to the question, “Is life real?”, might just be: “Not yet.”

http://fearlessdreams.com/blog/is-life-real-or-just-a-dream_78.html

Please I need some inputs from you guys, what could have made Kind Solomon say Life is vanity upon vanity, all is vanity, Is there a way to prove that our reality is the real reality? are we all living in our dreams here on earth, when shall we wake up from this dream?

Would a loving father, all powerful, all knowing be responsible for this imperfect world, if we all know how to give good things to our children, how much more the almighty father? how would you feel if you are the almighty father monitoring all daily activities in this imperfect world for 6,000+ years, how much headache would you have if you care really?




Friends!

Gen 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept:

Since this story of Adam may be symbolic as to what happens to all men pre-material world, could it be that men are yet to wake up from that deep sleep, hence all we see in this imperfect world.

Would you worry less, forgive and love more if all we see and going through are just dream




If you ever thought about this, kindly share what you think

Ecc

1:1 The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.

1:2 Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all [is] vanity.

1:3 What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?

1:4 [One] generation passeth away, and [another] generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.


1:11 [There is] no remembrance of former [things]; neither shall there be [any] remembrance of [things] that are to come with [those] that shall come after.

1:12 I the Preacher was king over Israel in Jerusalem.

1:13 And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all [things] that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.

1:14 I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all [is] vanity and vexation of spirit.



Why would God create vanity upon vanities unless if truly this life is all but vanities and just a dream?

Sometimes when we dream in a deep sleep, the dream becomes so real but still is a dream

Some other time we realise even in the dream that it's just a dream

If you relate this also to this material world, we might be having dreams within dream

nice thought, but unfortunately, the world is all too real.

Even if its a dream, its a very realistic one.

I'll bother about this question after I've woken up from the dream.

This is a very deep and interesting matter for contemplation.

Pastor AIO:

This is a very deep and interesting matter for contemplation.

Absolutely intereting one, i never even though of it.

Can't we be dreaming.

tpiah:

nice thought, but unfortunately, the world is all too real.

Even if its a dream, its a very realistic one.

The world is all too real, but that's what we think even when we are deep asleep, most of the time it's always very real to us, could this be a pointer to something higher.

One day dream from outside of this material world may be equivalent to a 100years here on earth, so to us it seems real but to them, here is unreal.

sarmy:

The world is all too real, but that's what we think even when we are deep asleep, most of the time it's always very real to us, could this be a pointer to something higher.

One day dream from outside of this material world may be equivalent to a 100years here on earth, so to us it seems real but to them, here is unreal.

Where exactly are you going with this and how useful is this question to us?

Is it your hypothesis that we are in a dream? If so, what are your reasons for coming up with such hypothesis?

Do you want us to wake up? if so how exactly do you intend to do that?

Why not bother about this after yu've woken up to actually discover that you were dreaming or in an illusion?

It seems obvious to me that you will never be able to understand that you are in a dream or an illusion until you are out of it and my reason is simple as I've never seen someone discussing with their dreaming selves or interacting with any of the entities in their dreams.

Did you just watch the Matrix?

duduspace:

I'll bother about this question after I've woken up from the dream.

Yes, but genuine love is far less among men, most often our love is really based on what we can get in return, if we know our real self and that we are of a family over there, we may begin to see things differently, this unreal world may begin to be of a more pleasant dream

OK, how do we explain various behaviors of others, how could a loving father be watching his children killing themselves thousands of years as if we made ourselves, what of those natural events we can not directly control

What if we are all related and one over there, but here, our dream has made us all seem separate from one another and separated from our original source, hence all we see.

How do we genuinely appreciate almighty God and our fellow men, if we are totally disconnected from our real self and if this life is the real one.

sarmy:

Yes, but genuine love is far less among men, most often our love is really based on what we can get in return, if we know our real self and that we are of a family over there, we may begin to see things differently, this unreal world may begin to be of a more pleasant dream

You can only speak for yourself and not for anyone else, there are people selfless in loving others both within the religious and atheistic camps. You don't need to turn reality (as we know it) into a dream before you realise that we are all of a family, the name of the family is mankind.

quote author=sarmy link=topic=275193.msg3913089#msg3913089 date=1243102691]
OK, how do we explain various behaviors of others, how could a loving father be watching his children killing themselves thousands of years as if we made ourselves, what of those natural events we can not directly control

[/quote]
The behaviour of man is studied in various subjects such as sociology, psychology, philosophy e.t.c that is to say the behaviour of man is complex therefore your questions have no easy answers.
Where did you get the idea that reality means you must be able to control everything? I always beleived that it is in dream and illusions that you can control everything, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

[quote author=sarmy link=topic=275193.msg3913089#msg3913089 date=1243102691]
What if we are all related and one over there, but here, our dream has made us all seem separate from one another and separated from our original source, hence all we see.
How do we genuinely appreciate almighty God and our fellow men, if we are totally disconnected from our real self and if this life is the real one.

We are all related, in fact we are not only related to other men but also to apes, baboons, monkeys and other animals (if the theory of evolution and genetic analysis are true), we don't have to disconnect from reality before understanding or accepting that as a fact.
I don't believe in God but we can genuinely appreciate our fellow men without disconnecting from the reality we now know.

Please feel free to answer my earlier questions.

@duduspace

Where exactly are you going with this and how useful is this question to us?

This is just a question, I may not have all the answers but this question may point us to identifying our true identity outside of this material life which may be unreal in itself.

This could assist us in providing answers to the many other questions of life, promote love, forgiveness and many more

Is it your hypothesis that we are in a dream? If so, what are your reasons for coming up with such hypothesis?

Not mine, but occurred to me long time ago @ age 12, I thought I was alone until recently I read about this question from somewhere else.

What if, our consciousness is awaken to the realization that this world we live could be less than real to our real self, what if in our real life, we are all in oneness.

Do you want us to wake up? if so how exactly do you intend to do that?

The more we are awaken, the better we would be generally, that's the core message of Christ, he associated with the supposed sinners because he saw things differently.

The starting point will be to promote the core message of Christ, love, NOT religion, church, color or race

Why not bother about this after yu've woken up to actually discover that you were dreaming or in an illusion?

Yes, one can do this. What, if one has journeyed to a strange land and came back home before realizing his neighbor over there was his lost cousin, what if he awaken to that realization while over there.

It seems obvious to me that you will never be able to understand that you are in a dream or an illusion until you are out of it and my reason is simple as I've never seen someone discussing with their dreaming selves or interacting with any of the entities in their dreams.

It all depends on our level consciousness as @ the time of the dream.

Did you just watch the Matrix?

No

@duduspace

You can only speak for yourself and not for anyone else, there are people selfless in loving others both within the religious and atheistic camps. You don't need to turn reality (as we know it) into a dream before you realise that we are all of a family, the name of the family is mankind.

Not enough, we need more selfless people, this can only be possible with more insight.

No one can turn reality in to dream, but dream can be turned into reality, that is when this world will be of a better place.

We are all related, in fact we are not only related to other men but also to apes, baboons, monkeys and other animals (if the theory of evolution and genetic analysis are true), we don't have to disconnect from reality before understanding or accepting that as a fact.

I'm not disputing that, but that we should consider and see far beyond this material world, probably we could find out a more real life exist outside of this present one, we don't need to disconnect from here but could be re-connected back to our original source

I don't believe in God but we can genuinely appreciate our fellow men without disconnecting from the reality we now know.

I appreciate you and what you believe in, we do not really need to disconnect from here to be awaken to the consciousness of our origin which may be far more real than this present one.

Interesting thread. I'm not sure if it is a "dream" as such,  but I do believe our experience of reality is limited.

We have 5 senses, and our experiences are limited to the signals these senses send to the brain. So, for a totally blind person does light really exist? I guess what i'm trying to say is just because we cannot sense something does not mean it does not exist,  If we had 7 sensory organs, we might just be able to experience more of reality. Just a lil simple theory.  Might be bulls!t though. I ain't no expert on this stuff.


Is light a particle or a wave? well, as i'm sure you all know it is both, depending on the conditions. (i'm not a science expert so some of my knowledge of this stuff is somewhat superficial,  if anyone knows more about the physics/quantum physics/string theory, please add to it). The scientific model that we have been using for centuries is based on the assumption that all of reality is matter. That all that can be observed is all that exists. Scientists have recently been rocked to find out that a lot of their old assumptions were misguided. That all of matter also has wave like properties that our senses do not register. Quantum physics is now being used to explore other dimensions of reality that our old scientific models had ignored. Like I said I'm no expert on the scientific side of this stuff so i'm hoping someone with more knowledge can elaborate.


Basically, in my opinion the EXCLUSIVE dominance of our everyday material world and the mechanistic/ materialistic world-view that underlies much of science has been called into question. "From the materialistic vantage-point, human beings are separate physical entities, the human being is a biological machine composed of cells, tissues, and organs, and consciousness is a function of the brain's psychological processes. This view denies the non-material aspects of reality that are not observable in ordinary states of consciousness."

Below is an excerpt from a book "Religion and spirituality in the Life Cycle" written by James Gollnick, a professor of the psychology of religion at the University of Waterloo.

Stanislov Grof (1985)reflects on the implications of trans-personal psychology and consciousness research for a broader and more accurate model of the human being. In his view the situation in the human sciences parallels the dilemma modern physicists encounter in the wave-particle paradox regarding light and matter in subatomic processes: under certain experimental conditions light behaves as a wave phenomenon, while under other experimental conditions it behaves as a particle phenomenon. Each view has partial validity and a limited range of applicability. The experimenter and the experimental setup determines which of these two behaviors will be manifested. Niels Bohr maintains that both the wave picture and particle picture are complementary and necessary for a comprehensive understanding of this paradoxical reality. He summarizes the general principle of complementarity:  "the opposite of a correct statement is an incorrect statement, but the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth" (Bohr 1958). Grof insists that to describe human beings in a more comprehensive fashion, we must accept the fact that they are somehow at once both biological machines (particles) and extensive fields of consciousness (waves)

In Grof's view, the body of controversial data accumulated by the sciences of medicine, psychiatry, psychology, parapsychology, anthropology, and thanatology is now sufficient to justify the formulation of a comparable principle of complementarity in the human sciences. At the present time, the complementary model of the human being emerging from trans-personal studies has the value of recognizing the complex, and even paradoxical, reality of human nature. This new model, with it's juxtaposition of two contradictory images of the human being, may be only a stepping stone to a more elegant and comprehensive theory. Grof believes that theoretical physicist David Bohm may have opened new possibilities for synthesizing and integrating two seemingly irreconcilable images of human nature. According to Grof, the hologram may contribute to our understanding of the nature of wholeness, including human wholeness.

In Particular, Grof finds Bohm's notion of reality as an unbroken and coherent whole in constant flux (the theory of "holomovement" to have revolutionary implications for understanding not only the material universe (the theory's original aim), but also the phenomena of life and consciousness. In Bohm's view, life and inanimate matter cannot be absolutely distinguished from one another. They represent an inseparable unity and cannot be explained from, or reduced to, each other. Science studies only a fraction of reality, what Bohm calls the explicate (unfolded) order. In the implicate (enfolded) order, various aspects of existence function in relation to the whole of reality. For example, the ordinary consciousness involved in the world of work and problem-solving operates at the level of the explicate order, while a spiritual/mystical experience of union with nature or the divine would access the implicate order. Non ordinary states of consciousness  can be interpreted to mediate direct experiences of the implicate order, intuiting those archetypal and mythic images that symbolize the wholeness of the universe and human reality.

, Grof holds out the hope that even more powerful models may derive from disciplines that study human experiences directly, such as psychology, psychiatry, psychotherapy, and anthropology. In Grof's view, we are approaching a major shift that will mark a radical departure from the mechanistic models that still dominate much of mainstream science

[flash=400,400]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSk51Lp-vHU&hl=en&fs=1[/flash]

sarmy:

This is just a question, I may not have all the answers but this question may point us to identifying our true identity outside of this material life which may be unreal in itself.

This could assist us in providing answers to the many other questions of life, promote love, forgiveness and many more

There are a lot of assumptions here which throw up a lot of even more questions, for example why do you beleive our present identities is a false one?

sarmy:

What if, our consciousness is awaken to the realization that this world we live could be less than real to our real self, what if in our real life, we are all in oneness.

The more we are awaken, the better we would be generally, that's the core message of Christ, he associated with the supposed sinners because he saw things differently.

A lot of questions and no anwers, I can see from the portion in bold that your working theory is that the answer to your question is yes but you have not stated exactly why you beleive this. My point precisely is that the answer to your question does not have to be yes for mankind to be better generally.

sarmy:

Yes, one can do this. What, if one has journeyed to a strange land and came back home before realizing his neighbor over there was his lost cousin, what if he awaken to that realization while over there.

It wouldn't matter would it, cos yu would just be waking up for something akin to a bad dream anyway?

sarmy:

The starting point will be to promote the core message of Christ, love, NOT religion, church, color or race
It all depends on our level consciousness as @ the time of the dream.

If the core message of Christ needed such a belief before it can be promoted, Jesus himself would have answered that question for us, besides Jesus himself never said that we were in some sort of dream state did he?
You haven't shown that we are in a dream yet, but you are already suggesting levels of the dream?
Also, you have not answered the question if you've ever known of anyone actually interacting physically with any entity from their dreams (apart from lunatics that is).

@Krayola

What yu're talking about is totally different, it is true we might not know the absolute truth as everything we know is to an extent relative and one can't really rule out any possibiblities but until someone conclusively proves these theories (as was done with the dual nature of matter which you pointed out) and make them pragmatic, the only reality we need bother about is the one that stares you and I in the face. Any other reality is the stuff of research and sci-fi movies.

@ duduspace,

duduspace:

@Krayola

What yu're talking about is totally different, it is true we might not know the absolute truth as everything we know is to an extent relative and one can't really rule out any possibiblities but until someone conclusively proves these theories (as was done with the dual nature of matter which you pointed out) and make them pragmatic, the only[b] reality we need bother about is the one that stares you and I in the face.[/b] Any other reality is the stuff of research and sci-fi movies.

I sorta agree with u, for all we know even the dual nature of matter might be misguided.   But you are being very dismissive of information that I doubt you have given as much thought or study as the people that have presented them. I could be wrong, so please don't take that as an insult. 

and the 1st thing my post said was that i would't call it a"dream"    I actually thought dream was being used as a kind of metaphor for an incomplete state of consciousness. But it seems you mean dream as in sleep, dream up stuff, and think its real.

why do you beleive our present identities is a false one?

This is not to say that this present life is a false one but [b]may [/b]not be the real one, we can't just rule out the fact that it could be a dream of the choices that we've made to try and exist eternaly as children of God outside of this present life

I'm sure you will agree that life here is for a brief moment, the brief moment here on earth definitely can not be all that is, we came from somewhere and we would go back to our source.

A lot of questions and no anwers,

Like I said before, I don't have all the answers

I can see from the portion in bold that your working theory is that the answer to your question is yes but you have not stated exactly why you beleive this. My point precisely is that the answer to your question does not have to be yes for mankind to be better generally.

This is only a matter of opinion

It wouldn't matter would it, cos yu would just be waking up for something akin to a bad dream anyway?
If the core message of Christ needed such a belief before it can be promoted, Jesus himself would have answered that question for us, besides Jesus himself never said that we were in some sort of dream state did he?
You haven't shown that we are in a dream yet, but you are already suggesting levels of the dream?
Also, you have not answered the question if you've ever known of anyone actually interacting physically with any entity from their dreams.

It's difficult to proof and I'm not in a position to convince you or anyone on this matter, it's difficult to explain,

from  A Midsummer Night's Dream


If we shadows have offended,

Think but this, and all is mended,

That you have but slumber'd here

While these visions did appear.

And this weak and idle theme,

No more yielding but a dream


its a tempting thought, but unfortunately, the world is all too real. In which case, the dream is substance.

Krayola:

@ duduspace,

I sorta agree with u,for all we know even the dual nature of matter might be misguided. But you are being very dismissive of information that I doubt you have given as much thought or study as the people that have presented them. I could be wrong, so please don't take that as an insult.

and the 1st thing my post said was that i would't call it a"dream" I actually thought dream was being used as a kind of metaphor for an incomplete state of consciousness. But it seems you mean dream as in sleep, dream up stuff, and think its real.

I don't take your conclusion as insulting at all , I am not as abrasive as some of my posts might suggest.

I agree that I might not have given as much thought or study as the people who presented these ideas and that is the reason why I'm asking the questions I did.
My first answer was a tongue in cheek answer to the literal meaning of the title of the thread.

duduspace:

I don't take your conclusion as insulting at all  , I am not as abrasive as some of my posts might suggest.

I agree that I might not have given as much thought or study as the people who presented these ideas and that is the reason why I'm asking the questions I did.
My first answer was a tongue in cheek answer to the literal meaning of the title of the thread.

When deep asleep, our dreams are as real as anything, similarly what if this present life is a dream though it appears real, what if our actual life exist outside of this present one.

Many will agree with the following that:-

1. This present life is for a brief moment, at most 150years or less, to be fair enough

2. It's also full of happiness to some while some live their entire life full of sorrows

3. We are not made of body alone, there is a spirit also in us

4. If our body evolved from apes, where did our spirit come from

5. Who made what we are made from both body & spirit

6. If someone contributed to our making, where is he and where does he live

7. How come he has not shown himself physically to proof that he exist or do something to let at least 60% of life inhabitants enjoy

8. To him who made us, how important is this our physical life which is for a brief moment and also with more than 50% of it's people suffering daily

9. What if to him, this our physical life is just dream or unreal or a movie, and knows we would soon wake up, would he be so concerned

10. There are so many things that point to the fact that this life may [/b]not be as real as it seems

[b]Please note: this is not to say that this present life is worthless or useless, we might all be going through this phase as part of a bigger picture in the scheme of things in order to fulfil the original plan of our maker.

One thing is sure, Whoever made us could only have been a loving father, caring and almighty one. This present life has not presented him in such a good light (reason why so many people does not believe he exist) but to him, we may all be dreaming.

2Tim 2:16

Gen 1:27 [/b]So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. (God is Spirit so man must have been created as a Spirit Man)

[b]Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. (Everything was made satisfactorily)

[b]Gen 2:17 [/b]But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. (a good God would have prevented a sudden death of his new creature by all means knowing fully well their innermost thoughts)

[b]Gen 2:21 [/b]And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

Before he ate the forbidden fruit, he had a deep sleep, he slept, what happened after he slept could be dream.

Alternately, could it be that he actually died after eating the forbidden fruits as warned by God in verse 17 above, that death could also be a separation from God or a deep sleep, or a cut off from source / from paradise, or a blind folding or an illusion, hence all we see here on earth

solosimple:

2Tim 2:16

Please, I'm not making any assertion or preaching any religion doctine, this is just a question, it's not to promote any kind of ungodliness. Thanks

sarmy:

When deep asleep, our dreams are as real as anything, similarly what if this present life is a dream though it appears real, what if our actual life exist outside of this present one.

Many will agree with the following that:-

1. This present life is for a brief moment, at most 150years or less, to be fair enough

2. It's also full of happiness to some while some live their entire life full of sorrows

3. We are not made of body alone, there is a spirit also in us

4. If our body evolved from apes, where did our spirit come from

5. Who made what we are made from both body & spirit

6. If someone contributed to our making, where is he and where does he live

7. How come he has not shown himself physically to proof that he exist or do something to let at least 60% of life inhabitants enjoy

8. To him who made us, how important is this our physical life which is for a brief moment and also with more than 50% of it's people suffering daily

9. What if to him, this our physical life is just dream or unreal or a movie, and knows we would soon wake up, would he be so concerned

10. There are so many things that point to the fact that this life may [/b]not be as real as it seems

11. [b]Please note: this is not to say that this present life is worthless or useless, we might all be going through this phase as part of a bigger picture in the scheme of things in order to fulfil the original plan of our maker.

12. One thing is sure, Whoever made us could only have been a loving father, caring and almighty one. This present life has not presented him in such a good light (reason why so many people does not believe he exist) but to him, we may all be dreaming.

1. True, but that is speaking in relative terms of human history. Relative to the life span of say an ant or a cell in the body, 10 human years is a very long time.

2. Very true

3. This is speculation and not proven in any way

4. You are assuming the existence of the spirit,  can you prove the existence? anything the spirit supposedly does that cannot be attributed to anything else?

5. The question might not be who made? but what made?

6. You are assuming their is an entity/personality involved, but as I said earlier this is yet to be proven.

7. Maybe becos there is no such being and our answers lies elsewhere, science and research perhaps (usually shows consistent results but I do agree there are no answers there yet )

8 & 9. see above

10. Like what exactly? please give examples.

11. Point taken, but yu still haven't proven that there is a firstly a maker and secondly a plan.

12. On what basis do yu make these assumptions? whoever made us might as well have been barmy, bored and looking for some entertainment or more likely nonexistent.

Gnosticism has a few interesting takes on this matter.

GNOSTICISM IS THE TEACHING based on Gnosis, the knowledge of transcendence arrived at by way of interior, intuitive means. Although Gnosticism thus rests on personal religious experience, it is a mistake to assume all such experience results in Gnostic recognitions. It is nearer the truth to say that Gnosticism expresses a specific religious experience . . . .

[center]The Cosmos
[/center]

All religious traditions acknowledge that the world is imperfect. Where they differ is in the explanations which they offer to account for this imperfection and in what they suggest might be done about it. Gnostics have their own -- perhaps quite startling -- view of these matters: they hold that the world is flawed because it was created in a flawed manner.

Like Buddhism, Gnosticism begins with the fundamental recognition that earthly life is filled with suffering. In order to nourish themselves, all forms of life consume each other, thereby visiting pain, fear, and death upon one another (even herbivorous animals live by destroying the life of plants). In addition, so-called natural catastrophes -- earthquakes, floods, fires, drought, volcanic eruptions -- bring further suffering and death in their wake. Human beings, with their complex physiology and psychology, are aware not only of these painful features of earthly existence. They also suffer from the frequent recognition that they are strangers living in a world that is flawed and absurd.

[center]The Human Being
[/center]
Human nature mirrors the duality found in the world: in part it was made by the false creator God and in part it consists of the light of the True God. Humankind contains a perishable physical and psychic component, as well as a spiritual component which is a fragment of the divine essence. This latter part is often symbolically referred to as the “divine spark”. The recognition of this dual nature of the world and of the human being has earned the Gnostic tradition the epithet of “dualist”.

Humans are generally ignorant of the divine spark resident within them. This ignorance is fostered in human nature by the influence of the false creator and his Archons, who together are intent upon keeping men and women ignorant of their true nature and destiny. Anything that causes us to remain attached to earthly things serves to keep us in enslavement to these lower cosmic rulers. Death releases the divine spark from its lowly prison, but if there has not been a substantial work of Gnosis undertaken by the soul prior to death, it becomes likely that the divine spark will be hurled back into, and then re-embodied within, the pangs and slavery of the physical world.

Not all humans are spiritual (pneumatics) and thus ready for Gnosis and liberation. Some are earthbound and materialistic beings (hyletics), who recognize only the physical reality. Others live largely in their psyche (psychics). Such people usually mistake the Demiurge for the True God and have little or no awareness of the spiritual world beyond matter and mind.

http://www.gnosis.org/gnintro.htm

The term Demiurge derives from the Latinized form of the Greek term dēmiourgos, δημιουργός, (literally "public or skilled worker" and refers to an entity responsible for the creation of the physical universe and the physical aspect of humanity. The term dēmiourgos occurs in a number of other religious and philosophical systems, most notably Platonism. Moral judgements of the demiurge vary from group to group within the broad category of gnosticism - such judgements usually correspond to each group's judgement of the status of materiality as being inherently evil, or else merely flawed and as good as its passive constituent matter will allow.
Like Plato, Gnosticism presents a distinction between a supranatural, unknowable reality and the sensible materiality of which the demiurge is creator. However, in contrast to Plato, several systems of Gnostic thought present the Demiurge as antagonistic to the Supreme God: his act of creation either in unconscious and fundamentally flawed imitation of the divine model, or else formed with the malevolent intention of entrapping aspects of the divine in materiality. Thus, in such systems, the Demiurge acts as a solution to the problem of evil. In the Apocryphon of John (several versions of which are found in the Nag Hammadi library), the Demiurge has the name "Yaltabaoth", and proclaims himself as God:
"Now the archon who is weak has three names. The first name is Yaltabaoth, the second is Saklas, and the third is Samael. And he is impious in his arrogance which is in him. For he said, 'I am God and there is no other God beside me,' for he is ignorant of his strength, the place from which he had come."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism

[center]The phenomenal world[/center]

The soul, as a moving essence, generates the corporeal or phenomenal world. This world ought to be so pervaded by the soul that its various parts should remain in perfect harmony. Plotinus is no dualist in the same sense as sects like the Gnostics; in contrast he admires the beauty and splendor of the world. So long as idea governs matter, or the soul governs the body, the world is fair and good. It is an image - though a shadowy image - of the upper world, and the degrees of better and worse in it are essential to the harmony of the whole. But in the actual phenomenal world unity and harmony are replaced by strife or discord; the result is a conflict, a becoming and vanishing, an illusive existence. And the reason for this state of things is that bodies rest on a substratum of matter. Matter is the indeterminate: that which has no qualities. If destitute of form and idea, it is evil; as capable of form it is neutral. Evil here is understood as a parasitic, having no-existence of its own (parahypostasis), unavoidable outcome of the Universe, having an "other" necessity, as a harmonizing factor.[8]
The human souls which have descended into corporeality are those which have allowed themselves to be ensnared by sensuality and overpowered by lust. They now seek to cut themselves loose from their true being; and, striving after independence, they assume a false existence. They must turn back from this; and, since they have not lost their freedom, a conversion is still possible.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoplatonism

Gnosticism, Neoplatonism, many philosophies utilize this idea of the world being illusory, or a poor copy of a better reality.

We are in deep sleep, illusion and the only time we are going to wake up from it is when Christ comes back.

The brain is a monstrous engine whose whole capability am afraid might never be deciphered, such that can be effectively programmed and reprogrammed. So I guess that the world we see today is just what the brain wants us to see. And who are this 'we' if not but the brain, then we are a working puppet in the hands of who?

About 'Life' well, should be a product of choice (not too sure about this cause grace is one of the major factors in distinguishing life). two things that are imminent in life and that's the good and the bad they are indispensable and irrefutable trust me that in life you move forward forever approaching your death date. imagine you're in a tunnel made up of a network of choices labelled good and bad (some good and some bad) and there is no going back. The whole thingy sounds scary to me.

duduspace:

4. You are assuming the existence of the spirit,  can you prove the existence? anything the spirit supposedly does that cannot be attributed to anything else?

Can you assume that you had the first class knowledge of what you are experiencing here, can you prove Karma if no why can't you get all you want?

Let me come down can you explain wizardry, hypnosis and the saying 'wat goes around comes around'. do you know why things are not exactly the way they should be do you know why you are not suffering as one of those terrorist or disaster victim if by chance tell me you are better than they are?

Assuming this world is a matrix... for example a cat can't grasp the clatter I make while typing this sentence but it senses that the keyboard is a great place to be and leave a scent... what if like that cat we also are a small fraction of a bigger accomplishment that we don't even understand to begin with... all the same it makes sense to believe in God.