did it ever occur to you to ask just who made the sun?

the solar deity  

While you were bothering about who authored the bible,

wouldn't that be a legitimate inquiry for lost souls?

From amnestylaw:

To answer you I would say the earth did not and was not "designed" for man to live, rather, man adapted through evolution to the conditions of the earth. It took Millions or probalby billions of years for man to be able to adapt to living on earth.

But you dont know . . . you're merely speculating that we "adapted" to living on earth. Babies dont die when exposed to 100% oxygen, infact that is the therapy for premature babies born with BPD . . . why then did the earth arrive at 21% oxygen tension?

You seem to forget that Tsunamis, Earthquakes, natural disasters, ,  are natures way of "going bersek" and putting man in serious peril at one time or the other. It is possible that someday, the earth will no longer be or man may no longer find the earth suitable for accommodation. That is , evolution in action.

this has to go down as one of the most ridiculous statements i've heard all day. Mr . . . what do you know about evolution? Have you SEEN evolution occur in the lab? Do you know how extremely difficult it is to change EVEN ONE GENE out of over 35,000 in a single cell that is tinier than 1 micron? How then do you assume that accumulated changes in the genome of the cells that make up an entire body changed you from a monkey to a man?

why have bacteria (many of whom possess only circular plasmids as their entire genome) not evolved into some sort of higher and more intelligent organism?

Tsunamis, earthquakes and co are not nature's way of going berserk . . . those are simply natural changes in the earth. Why hasnt the earth changed its orbit in billions of yrs? why hasnt it dropped out of the universe entirely? What keeps it hanging in nothingness?

By the way . . . who is nature?

bindex:

If you bother to read my post you will see that I clearly stated that the theories are more plausible than the creation accounts we have in genesis 1 and 2 that have NO evidence to support them and go against what we see in the natural universe. I do not believe in the big bang or all the types of evolution that you have listed, but their assertions are much more plausible than the ridiculous drivel you have in your bible. The bible creation accounts should have some scientific evidence at least don't you think so?

Hello @bindex, please i like to put all ideas and notions on the table for easy access to analyses. Hence i don't like muddled up or evasive responses. Instead of long winded posts, i prefer question and answer sessions that show when there is an answer or when there is no answer.

The answer you provide to the questions are things that would determine my next question to you or comments to your answer, alternatively, you can consider it an opportunity to convert me into an atheist  or don't you want to do that.

I do not read minds hence my statements can only be based on your answers and not on what you might have said in the past.

so once again @bindex, kindly please provide answers to the following questions (I would appreciate if you can also tabulate the answers in correlation to the question so that it would make it easy to know which is which in your answers).

@bindex

1. Please explain the big bang theory to us in simple english.

2. What principles does the big bang entail.

3. What is evolution, please define.

4. Which evolution are you talking about. (is it Cosmic Evolution, Biological Evolution, Macro Evolution, Micro Evolution or Geologic Evolution).

5. Since you know so much about Genesis 1 and 2 can you please describe to us which World it is the those verses was talking about.

6. What is a Narrative.

7. What is a Fact.

8. What is Speculation.

9. What is repeatable Science.

Your simple and non-insulting response is highly appreciated

Thank you.

No2Atheism:


@bindex

1. Please explain the big bang theory to us in simple english.

2. What principles does the big bang entail.

3. What is evolution, please define.

4. Which evolution are you talking about. (is it Cosmic Evolution, Biological Evolution, Macro Evolution, Micro Evolution or Geologic Evolution).

5. Since you know so much about Genesis 1 and 2 can you please describe to us which World it is the those verses was talking about.

6. What is a Narrative.

7. What is a Fact.

8. What is Speculation.

9. What is repeatable Science.

Your simple and non-insulting response is highly appreciated

Thank you.

Why are you asking me all this? Aren't you on the internet? There are a lot of materials about evolution and the big bang on the internet. I said they are more plausible than the drivel we have in genesis 1 and 2 which makes absolute no sense and which you have NO scientific evidence for.

bindex:

Why are you asking me all this? Aren't you on the internet? There are a lot of materials about evolution and the big bang on the internet. I said they are more plausible than the drivel we have in genesis 1 and 2 which makes absolute no sense and which you have NO scientific evidence for.

So does that mean you prefer not to teach me what you know that i don't know. But is it not easier for you to teach me directly what you already know so that when i go back to the internet it becomes easier to build on what you would have already taught me by answering my questions.

Alternatively should i assume that you don't have answers the questions listed.

No2Atheism:

So does that mean you prefer not to teach me what you know that i don't know. But is it not easier for you to teach me directly what you already know so that when i go back to the internet it becomes easier to build on what you would have already taught me by answering my questions.

Alternatively should i assume that you don't have answers the questions listed.

that might be a safe assumption . , .

davidylan:



Tsunamis, earthquakes and co are not nature's way of going berserk . . . those are simply natural changes in the earth. Why hasnt the earth changed its orbit in billions of yrs? why hasnt it dropped out of the universe entirely? What keeps it hanging in nothingness?

Let me post one of my previous rejoinder on another thread. Every body knows that that there are things about the Earth and about the Universe that we can’t explain for now but that does not mean that we can not explain them in the future as our knowledge increases. But I don’t think these unexplained phenomena are sufficient to give rise to an inference of supernatural causation. Just 1000 years ago, we couldn’t explain lightning, earth quakes or why maggots seemed to form spontaneously on rotting meat, or why the other planets seemed to zigzag across the sky, or why human beings have a coccyx, or why the rainbow appears in the sky or countless other everyday phenomena. And 1000 years ago, people ascribed those events to God or to their various Gods.

Since then, however, we’ve developed very good and empirical explanations for these things and by extension I’m not ready to go with a “god of the gaps” for the remaining things we don’t understand today. I don’t see anything conceptually that requires a god for explanation. The fact that we do not know some things today does not mean that we will not know them in the future. The "god of the gaps" does not real explanation because so many times humans have discovered how things they once ascribed to their god works. Example rainbow.

bindex:

Why are you asking me all this? Aren't you on the internet? There are a lot of materials about evolution and the big bang on the internet. I said they are more plausible than the drivel we have in genesis 1 and 2 which makes absolute no sense and which you have NO scientific evidence for.

But you have no scientific evidence for your own claims. Dont we all get bored of illiterates talking up "science" all the time?

davidylan:

But you have no scientific evidence for your own claims. Dont we all get bored of illiterates talking up "science" all the time?

What are my own claims? We are tired of illetrates that claim to know how science works but when you ask them a simple question about the science the bible they are defending asserts they shout its a miracle. deluded goons

toneyb:

Let me post one of my previous rejoinder on another thread. Every body knows that that there are things about the Earth and about the Universe that we can’t explain for now but that does not mean that we can not explain them in the future as our knowledge increases.

this is a fraudulent smokescreen. What if i told you that we will explain the existence of God "in the future as our knowledge increases"? Would that be an acceptable explanation to you?

No matter how much our "knowledge" increases, we will NEVER be able to recreate life.

toneyb:

But I don’t think these unexplained phenomena are sufficient to give rise to an inference of supernatural causation.

Downright absurd. you cant explain the supernatural = fairy tales. But you cant explain the natural either = its true we will explain in future?

Just who are you arguing with? Kids born last week?

If you tell me the supernatural makes no sense then you better be darn well prepared to EXPLAIN NOW why you think so and not just from my own side. Tell me how YOU and the earth got here by magic.

toneyb:

Just 1000 years ago, we couldn’t explain lightning, earth quakes or why maggots seemed to form spontaneously on rotting meat, or why the other planets seemed to zigzag across the sky, or why human beings have a coccyx, or why the rainbow appears in the sky or countless other everyday phenomena. And 1000 years ago, people ascribed those events to God or to their various Gods.

Since then, however, we’ve developed very good and empirical explanations for these things and by extension I’m not ready to go with a “god of the gaps” for the remaining things we don’t understand today. I don’t see anything conceptually that requires a god for explanation. The fact that we do not know some things today does not mean that we will not know them in the future. The "god of the gaps" does not real explanation because so many times humans have discovered how things they once ascribed to their god works. Example rainbow.

You really dont know . . . some civilizations may have had prior knowledge of such phenomenon . . . again you are building a castle on speculation.

bindex:

What are my own claims? We are tired of illetrates that claim to know how science works but when you ask them a simple question about the science the bible they are defending asserts they shout its a miracle. deluded goons

science of the bible? How can the science of the supernatural be the same as the science of the natural?

Pls have you responded to no2atheism or is this the usual "dodge anything that forces us to acknowledge our own illogicality"?

One atheist neigbour around us just lost his job, he's now a baptist
He needs a miracle

davidylan:

science of the bible? How can the science of the supernatural be the same as the science of the natural?

Science of the supernatural or science of the ignorant? Was it your all supernatural who said breeding animals by striped sticks produced striped offsprings ? supernatural science indeed. Or was it your supernatural science that says that evil sprits cause diseases?

Pls have you responded to no2atheism or is this the usual "dodge anything that forces us to acknowledge our own illogicality"?

No2atheism has not asked me any question, I have already told him my position, I do not believe in the big bang or in evolution if he has questions he can ask those that believe in them and are defending them I am not one of them.

Wait till disaster hits, the atheists will start calling on God.
Didn't they say keep God in your bedroom yet we saw people holding hands at ground zero and Columbine including atheists.
give them time

$osisi:

Wait till disaster hits, the atheists will start calling on God.
Didn't they say keep God in your bedroom yet we saw people holding hands at ground zero and Columbine including atheists.
give them time

I watched a bit of Farah Fawcet's story on ABC the other day, it sickened me to hear the number of times she kept refering to God and miracles. These same people where probably laughing at those who bothered to go to church when they were younger. Why does God suddenly become the easy target to blame when problems bigger than science appear?

$osisi:

One atheist neigbour around us just lost his job, he's now a baptist
He needs a miracle

$osisi:

Wait till disaster hits, the atheists will start calling on God.
Didn't they say keep God in your bedroom[b] yet we saw people holding hands at ground zero and Columbine including atheists[/b].
give them time

 ROTFLOL . . .      It started with Pharaoh wey harden heart until the 7 plagues opened his eyes clearly  

davidylan:

this is a fraudulent smokescreen. What if i told you that we will explain the existence of God "in the future as our knowledge increases"? Would that be an acceptable explanation to you?

Are you kidding me? How can we explain the existence of god as our knowledge increases when we already have people telling us about his existence. Did you god not inspire people to write a book for him to prove his existence? People have alread said that god exists amongst humans and interacts with them, There is no evidence for that what so ever. Some one said that what we don't know we ascribe it to god and what we know we call science. The more our knowledge increases the more all the ideas of all the gods die away.

No matter how much our "knowledge" increases, we will NEVER be able to recreate life

How do you know this? 1000b years ago people like you will be saying that we can NEVER transplant a human heart or kidney to another human

Downright absurd. you cant explain the supernatural = fairy tales. But you cant explain the natural either = its true we will explain in future

Just who are you arguing with? Kids born last week??

What is the supernatural and how does it operate? When your ancient jewish fathers saw the rainbow they quickly ascribe it to their god and added it to the mythical Noah's tale. Which is a myth and a fairy tale because rainbows are not a covenant between any god and man.  You that believe in the supernatural will have to prove to us that light did not refract as it enters the surface of the water droplets or raindrop  prior to Noah’s flood?(Since refraction of light causes rainbow). By the way there is NO evidence to show that there is any supernatural inteferrance at all. Prayers with is supposed to serves as a supernatural phenomenum has does not work. Experiments were conducted in a hosptital in the united states to examine the effect of prayer on some patients and it showed that those that were prayed upon  even did worse those that were not prayed upon all at all because only 1 died amongst those that were not prayed upon while two amongst those that were prayed upon died. The recovery rate for those of them that did not die was also the same for both groups.

If you tell me the supernatural makes no sense then you better be darn well prepared to EXPLAIN NOW why you think so and not just from my own side. Tell me how YOU and the earth got here by magic.

I might not know  what 12345675*2336846374 but I know for sure that it isn't 5. The fact that we don't have answers today does not mean that we will not have answers in the future.

You really dont know . . . some civilizations may have had prior knowledge of such phenomenon . . . again you are building a castle on speculation.

I am refering to the civilization which you hold unto their words as the word of your god who said that their god was the force behind all these things.

JeSoul:


ROTFLOL . . . It started with Pharaoh[b] wey harden heart [/b] until the 7 plagues opened his eyes clearly

I thought the bible said that it was Yahweh that harden his heart?

It seems you guys beliefs are based on the fear of something bad happening to you if you lose faith.

what happened to the loving God?

toneyb:

I thought the bible said that it was Yahweh that harden his heart?

  Go back and read it in context. While you're at it and if you have time brush up on Hebrew writing styles of attributing everything to the plan of God. The same bible quotes in other places Pharaoh hardened his heart . . .

 but of course we already know you have no intrest in what the bible actually says, don't we?  

bawomolo:

It seems you guys beliefs are based on the fear of something bad happening to you if you lose faith.

what happened to the loving God?

I'm mighty glad you used the word seem. Becos it is a false assumption you have there. Re-read our entries and come back with a better assumption brotha .

bindex:

Science of the supernatural or science of the ignorant? Was it your all supernatural who said breeding animals by striped sticks produced striped offsprings ? supernatural science indeed. Or was it your supernatural science that says that evil sprits cause diseases?

No2atheism has not asked me any question, I have already told him my position, I do not believe in the big bang or in evolution if he has questions he can ask those that believe in them and are defending them I am not one of them.

1. What do you believe, since you do not believe in big band and evolution.

2. Please try and answer the questions that you have answers for, unless you do not answer for any of the questions listed.

3. Your adequate response is awaited.

JeSoul:

  Go back and read it in context. While you're at it and if you have time brush up on Hebrew writing styles of attributing everything to the plan of God. The same bible quotes in other places Pharaoh hardened his heart . . .

but of course we already know you have no intrest in what the bible actually says, don't we?  

I have talked about the hebrew ideas of attributing everything to their god. The bible already had established that yahweh harden his heart. What more are you trying to say? Are you now trying to say that the ancient jews got it wrong by saying that yahweh did what he did not? By the way there is a lot of historical evidence to show that the exodus narrative is pure fiction.

Even if god exist, he doesnt have anything to do with religion.
All those tales from jewish night are figment of people that should have audition for d role of joker in batman.
Jonah bin swallowed by a fish,
moses splittin d red sea wit a staff,
Noahs boat & d rainbow story,
d tower sum human were tryin 2 build 2 reach god (Explanatn 4 d reason why we have diffrent race) *space ship anyone*
i cud go on & on wit all d ludicrous stories from d bible & d quran.
Religion is a lie dat has bin told for so long it has now begin 2 sound true.
Watch out! Sum people actually believe in santa clus.
People will believe anything (hitler, )
i dont blame nigerians much, immediatly u are born.they force u to attend church & mosque. Most people do as long as they are under thier parents roof which they are until they are 30 by then the brainwash has been done.
They dont read & think. Most people just hear what d priest tells dem. If in doubt, conduct a poll & ask how many people has read d bible or quran from d begginin 2 d end.
D bible tells jewish fable of thier god
the quran is d arabian tale of thier own god.
D yoruba thinks obatala is god & creatd d world wit a chicken.
D greek think its zeus.
Everybody has thier version.

No2Atheism:

1. What do you believe, since you do not believe in big band and evolution.

2. Please try and answer the questions that you have answers for, unless you do not answer for any of the questions listed.

3. Your adequate response is awaited.

I believe in naturalism and by that I believe  that the world is a closed system where nothing out side of the world life super natural forces affects it. I believe in secularism, and I also believe that all gods were created by men to help them solve the pesky probelms that is associated with life and all its vagaries. Toneyb said and I agree that religion is the outcome of man’s struggle with natural phenomenon that is why there are so many religions all over the place. I might not know how we got hear but I KNOW for sure that I did not get here because a Jewish deity created this world with all the people in it as vegetarians initially before Adam and Eve ate the friut of knowledge. I do not know how we got here but I know that the entire creation account in genesis 1 and 2 are not true.

toneyb:


I might not know  what 12345675*2336846374 but I know for sure that it isn't 5. The fact that we don't have answers today does not mean that we will not have answers in the future.

@toneyb

1. Is your statement a pledge of certainty or mere expectation?

2. Do you just realised that your statement is implying an 100% certainty that you are going to have answers in future that support your world view.

3. Do you not realise that you are actually exhibiting what is known as "faith" and "believe" considering that you are expecting your hearer to believe you based on what you think you might prove in the future and not based on what you can prove now.

4. Do you mean you are 100% sure that we would have answers in the future.

5. How do you know the answers you might have in the future (if at all) would not contradict your position.

6. Mathematics is science, because it is repeatable and duplicatable by anybody (hence why you can be 100% sure that 12345675*2336846374 is not 5). However since Evolution is not repeatable or duplicatable by anyone else apart from the "evolutionist" who originated the idea, how exactly is it then science. Hence:
   - how exactly is that you are now 100% sure that you will have answers in the future.
   - how exactly are u 100% sure that the answers you have in the future would be ones that support your worldview.

---------------------------------------------------------

@bindex

I would really appreciate if you take the time to answer the questions i have listed earlier, we are all here to learn hence you deciding not to answer a questions means either you choose not to teach us what you know/believe or you prefer to disallow the possibility of an intelligent dialogue

bindex:

I believe in naturalism and by that I believe  that the world is a closed system where nothing out side of the world life super natural forces affects it. I believe in secularism, and I also believe that all gods were created by men to help them solve the pesky probelms that is associated with life and all its vagaries. Toneyb said and I agree that religion is the outcome of man’s struggle with natural phenomenon that is why there are so many religions all over the place. I might not know how we got hear but I KNOW for sure that I did not get here because a Jewish deity created this world with all the people in it as vedetarians initially before Adam and Eve ate the friut of knowledge. I do not know how we got here but I know that the entire creation account in genesis 1 and 2 are not true.

@bindex

1. But your statement I highlighted is a contradiction.

2. You are claiming to not know something , yet at the same time you are also claiming to know with 100% certainty that the opposite is true.

3. For you to know that the entire genesis account is not true means that you have a foolproof 100% guaranteed reference by which you came to that determination.

4. Can you please give us the reference that you used.


---------------------

Okay let us start our discussion from the basics:

Option 1: Everything was created.

Option 2: Nothing was created.


@bindex, which of the options above do you believe.

If someone really believes that
- A man spent 3 days and nights in the belly of a fish and survived
- The red sea parted so people could walk on dry land
- He/she is going to heaven and majority of earth's population will burn in torment forever

If someone really believes the above, you need to stop wasting your time trying to convince them. The most powerful truth is the one you discover yourself. It usually takes extraordinary happenings for such people to even begin to think critically about what they think they know. Add in the social pressure of Nigeria's church scene and you have a regressive religion, embracing elements which most of the rest of the christian world has moved on from.

I Believe, ?. Believe is a state or habit of mind in which trust, confidence or reliance is placed in some person or thing; faith, Hum! To believe is to assume a state of mind based on trust. A belief is not ,therefore ,based on Truth, it is based on unsubstantiated trust. Whether facts are present or not, Whether Truth is present or not, is basically irrelevant. No evidence or proof is needed to believe in Santa Claus or the Easter bunny, only trust in the stories and legends of their existence. If a person chooses to believe in Santa Claus, he or she has established a "Personal Truth" not "The Truth" 'The Truth’ is not subject to perspective and does not change as 'Personal Truths'can,and often do. 'The Truth’ is not dependent upon the special ness of its messenger, nor is it diminished when spoken by an Evil Person, or enhanced when spoken by a Good Person. You may not like The Truth you may even hate The Truth, you may even try to turn The Truth into something else, but the Truth, very simply 'Just is The Truth'. The Earth revolves around the sun, that is’ The Truth’. In the middle ages, however the Holy Roman Church dictated that the Sun revolved around the Earth. Copernicus and Galileo were punished, in fact, for trying to express 'The Truth'. The Beliefs of the Church could not change this 'Fact’, Faith could not change this 'Fact', The Church could not change this 'Fact'! THE TRUTH, therefore, is not founded on belief! 'Truth’ is based, ON FACT!. I believe does not express’ The Truth', it expresses the perspective of the individual making the statment.

The real god of 99% of Nigerians is envy, jealousy and greed.

No2Atheism:

@bindex

1. But your statement I highlighted is a contradiction.

2. You are claiming to not know something , yet at the same time you are also claiming to know with 100% certainty that the opposite is true.

3. For you to know that the entire genesis account is not true means that you have a foolproof 100% guaranteed reference by which you came to that determination.

4. Can you please give us the reference that you used.


---------------------

Okay let us start our discussion from the basics:

Option 1: Everything was created.

Option 2: Nothing was created.


@bindex, which of the options above do you believe.

Do you see how he has tactically avoided answering your question? Typical.

hmmnn,
interesting arguments and I must admit very intelligent posts on both sides of the warring parties. But I have a question for DAVIDYLAN my question is this

Did God create the universe? If yes, does he live in it (universe), if yes, can someone live in something he created?

This is a sincere question no strings attached. I am yet to decided whether to be an athiest or a theist I prefer to be on the fence then jump to the correct group when need be but for now I'm watching

pls I need a goodand logical answer