ha ha ha ha , were you touched by the post or taken aback by it? sorry think twice ok

@Dankol: Common Logical Fallacies Made By Muslims « on: June 09, 2009, 11:52 AM »

Christians must be prepared to answer the typical objections made against the Gospel. Most of the objections are based on simple logical fallacies. The following is a list of some of the most common fallacies used by Muslims.
Note: The average Muslim does not know that his arguments are logically erroneous. He is sincere in his beliefs. Thus you must be patient and kind in sharing with him why his arguments are invalid.

1. The Fallacy of False Assumptions: In logic as well as in law, "historical precedent" means that the burden of proof rests on those who set forth new theories and not on those whose ideas have already been verified. The old tests the new. The already established authority judges any new claims to authority.

Deal with this and explain the Jews and Christianity. Now tell us about how you can explain the NT over the OT?

Since Islam came along many centuries after Christianity, Islam has the burden of proof and not Christianity. The Bible tests and judges the Qur'an. When the Bible and the Qur'an contradict each other, the Bible must logically be given first place as the older authority. The Qur'an is in error until it proves itself.
Some Muslims violate the principle of historical precedent by asserting that Islam does not have the burden of proof and that the Qur'an judges the Bible.

While you will not be able to argue for NT against OT, the Quran states very clearly that Bible is not a revealed Book, and it is Torah, Sabur, Injil that was revealed to specific prophet (AS)! Quran says that the Bible is corrupt and unprotected because it argues against itself. The OT is there before NT yet NT argues with OT! The laws of OT is turned upside down by just love God and neighbor short sentence! Thats tacky.

Quran says that God is One, Complete, no partnership, no father and no children and nothing like HIM! Whatever your heart can conjure up, is not God, His shape, etc. Yet everyone depends on Him while He depends on no one. He has sets of laws and commands and only He can give Mercy and prevent you from destructions by His every protection, Mercy, Forgiveness and Power. He has all knowledge and never dies. Are these enough or you still want more?

Allah says that Mary and her son Jesus are humans, and don't you see how they do things that are humans? Eat, drink, sleep, tired and needy? Where is your confusion, manThink hard.

2. Arguing in a circle: If you have already assumed in your premise what you are going to state in your conclusion, then you have ended where you began and proven nothing.

Circle If you end where you began, you got nowhere.

Examples:
#1 Proving Allah by the Qur'an and then proving the Qur'an by Allah.
#2 Proving Muhammad by the Qur'an and then proving the Qur'an by Muhammad.
#3 Proving Islam by the Qur'an and then proving the Qur'an by Islam.

Where o you proof Yahweh/ Jehovah or Eloi, etc except by the Bible? Where do you proof that Jesus is god, except from the Bible, sorry to my Israelite friends, the NT part? Where do you proof Judaism and Christianity, except by the Bible? You are guilty of the same accusation. Or you don't want us to be direct like that? Funny man.

3. False Analogy: Comparing two things as if they are parallel when they are not really the same at all.
Examples:
#1 Many Muslims erroneously assume that Muslims and Christians share the same concepts of God, revelation, inspiration, textual preservation, the Bible, prophethood, biblical history, conversion, etc,

What webste did you copy this from? They must be liars and you must be a sucker! I have a bridge in brooklyn that I need to sell. Can I send you the invoice man since you are this gullible? Muslims do not share Bible with you. I said above, and please go back and read: Bible is not a revealed Book of Allah! How then do we share it with you? There is nothing that is specific to Judaism or Christianity that we share.

I am a human being so sharing human history with you does not mean that when i give my account and you give your own account, you or I have copied from each other. Either one of us is correct or both of us are wrong. If we are not exactly sayong the same thing, we both can not be correct! THis is the case with Bible; Judaism and Christianity versus Quran and Islam. Ours is from Allah, while your is inspirations to many men/writers from Yahweh, Jehovah or Eloi!

#2 Because a false analogy is drawn between Islam and Christianity, some Muslims think that any argument which refutes the Qur'an will likewise refute the Bible; any argument which refutes Muhammad will also refute Jesus Christ, etc,
      #3 For example, many Muslims claim that Muhammad and all prophets were sinless. They even deny that Abraham was an idol worshipper. Thus when a Christian points out all the wicked things that Muhammad did (mass murder, child abuse, lying, etc.), the Muslims will say,

   "If you are right, then you must also reject your biblical prophets for doing wicked things as well."

If two people claimed that they are Doctors of Medicine, specializing in Neurology or even surgeons, we should expect some minimally common knowledge they both will share of the nervous system, brain and the vertebral column. But they do not necessarily have to go to the same University. This is the case with Bible and Quran. The Universities are different, but they should both have common and equal knowledge and information. The Quran have more direct and precise knowledge that we do not find in the Bible. In addition the Bible argues with itself between OT and NT, and even within verses opposing each other in the same Testament; NT; God is One and Jesus is a servant, prophet, son of man, worshpper of God. Yet another verse says no, he is God in the flesh. While still another says he is in God and God s in him, hence he is One with God. But the same verse or another continues this logic where he is in the disciples and the disciples are in him, yet arent these disciples Gods, too or by inference One God with Jesus and God and Holy Ghost? LOL. Sorry this is serious, but in the tradition of $Osisi, this is hilarious and deserves my 32!


It is very shameful that you call Abraham an idol worshipper! The man who destroyed idols, and you people always want to trace your religious heritage to him? Wow. A complete diffrenct position is what Islam holds; He was not a Jew, nor a Christian but a beliver in One single God and chose no partnership with his  LOrd!


@Noetics2" Shut up, you dont know how too argue, except the catch phrase that you got stuck in your head! Am tired of your ignorance. This is my last look at you.

"If you are right, then you must also reject your biblical prophets for doing wicked things as well."

What he is really saying is, "If you reject my prophet, then you must reject your prophets as well. If Muhammad was a false prophet, then your prophets are false as well."
The root problem is that the Muslim concept of prophethood is not the same as the Christian concept of prophethood. We teach that prophets sin like anyone else. Thus while Islam is refuted by the sins of Muhammad, Christianity is not jeopardized at all. The Muslim is guilty of setting up a "false analogy."

So the one who is tempted by the devil is not a sinner? The one who cursed an innocent tree to die is not a sinner? The one who make spirits/genies go into hard of pigs is not a sinner? The one who called his follwers fools and evil generation is not a sinner? What is the definition of a sin then?


Finally, if Jesus sinned by not being forgiven, is he still god? I remember the story of him telling the thief on his right about him going to paradise. Yet on his left he did not forgive the one there, even though he should have known that the guy was under duress of what is happening to him. What about him never forgiving his man, Judas Iscariot, who did exactly as he wished? By the way the Jews still bear Judas till this day! How about that?

Whenever a Muslim responds to a Christian attack on the Qur'an, Muhammad, or Allah by flipping the argument around and applying it to the Bible, Jesus or the Trinity as if Islam and Christianity either stand or fall together, he is guilty of the fallacy of false analogy. Islam can be false and Christianity be true at the same time

The Bible already fell. You are just arguing as a christian trying to spill over the Quran, too. It will be impossible for you to achieve. Flipping the argument aroundshows that we know that you are vunerable, hence you are finding a way to insult the Quran. If a man carries a none working phone and he is accusing a man whose phone was just completing his last call as a person who can't make any phone call. It is reasonalbe for this man to ask the one making such erronous statement to simply use his phone for everyone to see! Is that not a reasonable presentation, if your mind is sound?

But of course you nare christian. I was hoping you will be human, for a change. And not be so blind in your faith.

#1 Some Muslims argue, "The Qur'an is the Word of God because the text of the Qur'an has been preserved perfectly." This argument is erroneous for two reasons:
a. Factually, the text of the Qur'an has not been preserved perfectly. The text has additions, deletions, conflicting manuscripts, and variant readings like any other ancient writing.

where is the addition? Where is the delection? Where is the conflicting manuscript? The fact that what is abrogated remains in the initial oral recitation and was well known, cancels out the addition and deletion? To say addition means that after the original, something else was added. You can not prove that happened. Same case will be used fro deletion.

And as for manuscript, if a lecture is delivered to 100 students, some will take notes that will address various part of it, in different degrees. However it will be safe to say that maybe 5 of the students will have taking complete notes covering every part of the lecture. But definitely it is completely safe to say that when w=you combine the notes of all the 100 students together, you will have the complete lecture. This is the case with the Quran. So your many manuscripts makes no sense.

But this manuscripts are in pure arabic language. This is not the case with the Bible where what you have now are the most anscient manuscript, which are not in the language of any prophet but in greek or latin, and many centuries after the fact! You see why I said that your intention was to rubbish the Quran, in the same way that the Bible is?

Who is now trying to copy and argue unintelligently.

olabowale:

@Noetics2" Shut up, you dont know how too argue, except the catch phrase that you got stuck in your head! Am tired of your ignorance. This is my last look at you.

olabs This is hilarious.

1. why dont I know how to argue?
2. its not a catch phrase. . . .it is allah who has not provided the original bible. . .or has he?
3. how am I ignorant? please educate me.
4. Have u been looking at me before?

b. Logically, it is irrelevant whether the text of the Qur'an has been preserved because preservation does not logically imply inspiration. A book can be perfectly copied without implying its inspiration.

But what is written down through God's Inpiration on the Writer, should not be changing. Right? Look at your Bible and compare it to the Quran and tell me which one is changing? The one that is changing is the one that is not Inspired by God! I remember the Bible I used in High School, pre 1970. It was different from what the fresh crop that came in in 1971 was given. We compared it then, but since I was not a cHristian, it did not matter.

olabowale:

But what is written down through God's Inpiration on the Writer, should not be changing. Right? Look at your Bible and compare it to the Quran and tell me which one is changing? The one that is changing is the one that is not Inspired by God! I remember the Bible I used in High School, pre 1970. It was different from what the fresh crop that came in in 1971 was given. We compared it then, but since I was not a cHristian, it did not matter.

What was the difference between both bibles? why did u spend so much time on the bible?

#2 When Muslims attack the character and motives of anyone who criticizes Islam, they are using irrelevant arguments. The character of someone is no indication of whether he is telling you the truth. Good people can lie and evil people can tell the truth. Thus whenever a Muslim uses slurs such as "mean," "dishonest," "racist," "liar," "deceptive," etc., he is not only committing a logical fallacy but also revealing that he cannot intellectually defend his beliefs.

An evil person can also lie and often not tell the truth. This is the case with you christians when it comes to religion. Compare your opinion about Jesus being God to what the Jews who are your holders of salvation!

olabowale:

An evil person can also lie and often not tell the truth. This is the case with you christians when it comes to religion. Compare your opinion about Jesus being God to what the Jews who are your holders of salvation!

This is dishonest. I believe it has been REFUTED several times on this forum.

#3 When confronted with the pagan origins of the Qur'an, some Muslims defend the Qur'an by answering,

"But Christians celebrate Christmas and it was originally a pagan holiday! Thus both Muslims and Christians get their rites from the pagans."

As above, you have argued that evil people can speak the truth. The Pagan arabs were evil, but they have their limitations knowing that there is one God, even though as they had 360 gods that they go through to Him. They never built the Kaaba with any funds that had evil source or interest in their acquistion of it.

Finally, the rites that the Pagans observed which was preserved by the Muslims, were the only times the evil pagans spoke and did things that were true. Look, hajj was observed by Ibrahim and his son, Ismail (AS). Were they also pagans of arabs because there was no idol in the kaaba during their time!


I will not even respond to the Christian bit, except that I will like to see where Mary the mother of Jesus observed his irt on December 25? Or where Jesus himself obderved this? Or where the disciles observed it?

This argument is erroneous for several reasons.
a. It is a false analogy to parallel the pagan origins of the rites commanded in the Qur'an with the present day holidays nowhere commanded in the Bible. What some modern day Christians do on Dec. 25th has no logical bearing on what the Qur'an commands Muslims to do (eg. the Pilgrimage, the Fast, etc.).
b. It is irrelevant that some Christians choose to celebrate the birth of Christ. Since the Bible nowhere commands it, it is a matter of personal freedom. But Muslims are commanded in the Qur'an to believe and practice things many things which came from the paganism of that day.

So if an evil person slaughters a cow and left it on an alter of his god, and you slaughter a cow at the same time and feed people by it, you are blamed for your act, because you slaughter at the same time as an evil man? Are your deeds the same, having the same purpose, even though the act is similar?

For example while the Hajj of the pagans were done in nudity, clapping, whistling, etc, that of the muslim is different. I have to ask just because an evil man drives a car, does it mean that everyone who drives has the same evil purpose?

c. The Muslim by using this argument is actually admitting that the Qur'an was not "sent down" but fabricated from pagan sources. This means he has become an unbeliever (Surah 25:4-6).

This guy must be a man who jumps to conclusion, without any logical reason! Again, every animal eats and excretes #s 1 and 2! When humans do it are they animals like swine, or horse, or donkey, etc which do the same exact things?

Man, you are tripping.

#4 Some Muslims argue that the Qur'an is the Word of God because it contains some historically or scientifically accurate statements. This argument is irrelevant. Just because a book is correct on some historical or scientific point does not mean it is inspired. You cannot take the attributes of a part and apply it to the whole. A book can be a mixture of true and false statements. Thus it is a logical fallacy to argue that the entire Qur'an is true if it makes one true statement.
When a Muslim argues that history or science "proves" the Qur'an, this actually means that he is acknowledging that history and science can likewise refute the Qur'an. If the Qur'an contains just one historical error or one scientific error, then the Qur'an is not the Word of God. Verification and falsification go hand in hand.

However the Quran scientifical statement, even though it is not a book of science have not be proven. Whatever is not settled upon by scientific knowledge today, will in the future be settled upon and agreed by the scientific community of the coming generations, which I will argue must be more advanced compared to this present time!


But you can only argue against the muslims and indeed the Quran, if all of a sudden you discovered that what the Quran said and every knowledge has disproved it! For example, lat just say we now find the earth to be square, or some other shape but definitely not a sphere or circle like. Thats when you have an argument.

If you argue with an on going scientific process without a full and complete conclusion to try to discredit the Quran, you have displayed impatience and lack of good processing.

#5 The present meaning of a word is irrelevant to what it meant in ancient times. The word "Allah" is a good example. When confronted by the historical evidence that the word was used by pagan Arabs in pre-Islamic times to refer to a high god who was married to the sun-goddess and had three daughters, some Muslims will quote dictionaries, encyclopedias, etc. to prove (sic) that "Allah means God." They are thus using modern definitions to define what the word meant over a thousand years ago! What "Allah" means now has no bearing on what it meant before Muhammad.

Before Christianity arrived in English, I am going to go on a limb that the word "God"existed among them. But the word "Jesus" did not exist. So was the word "Holy Ghost/spirit," among them, even though he Jews were already living in England!

What was the word "God" standing for at that time? Did it mean theGod of the Jews? Now then, since the Jews do not believe that Jesus is anything and definitely not God, is that word now change in meaning to the Jews or the English? What about the English Muslims?


I am a yoruba man, Eledumare wasa a word meaning God the Creator before Christianity, Islam. It still means the same now that islam and Christianity have eaten up the society witha few animist left. The animist still use the same word to day, so do the Muslim and the Christians as well. Is there a meaning to each of these people the same exact word; Eledumare?

Sometimes the way the christian argue is sickening! And the Alawo or Oloya or Olrisha who says that Eledumare is the father or the friend of his idol will now force the Muslim to abandone the usage of that word when he is talking to another Yoruba Muslim? Maybe the Yoruba Christians dont use the word Eledumare to mean God the Creator, anymore? Ngbo Funmi and iwo no, Toyin! Eyin omode yi edamilowun, abi. LOL. Toyin o mo pee mo mo oruko owun.


Te idol worshippers saying Allah has 3 daughters, married have been refurted by Surah 112! And tere are other parts of the Quran that refuted it. This is why they are pagans. This is why the muslims say that Christianity is paganism, too.

5. The Fallacy of Equivocation: If we assume that everyone has the same definition of such words as God, Jesus, revelation, inspiration, prophet, miracle, etc., we are committing a very simple logical fallacy.
#1 When a Muslim says, "Christians and Muslims worship the same God," he is committing the fallacy of equivocation. While Christians worship the Triune God of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, Muslims worship a Unitarian deity. Obviously, they are worshipping different Gods.
#2 When a Muslim says, "We believe in Jesus too," he is committing the fallacy of equivocation. The "Jesus" of the Qur'an is not the Jesus of the Bible. Islam preaches "another Jesus" (II Cor. 11:4). The Jesus of the Bible is God the Son who died on the cross for our sins. But the "Jesus" of the Qur'an is not God the Son and he did not die on the cross for our sins. Thus it is erroneous for Muslims to tell Christians that they believe in Jesus too.

This is the reason I am not in the Muslim/Christian/Jewish dialogue club. The Jesus of the Bible is not the same as the Isa bin Mariam of Islam. Now compare your jesus god or son of god and dead jesus to Islam's position. You will see where we are different and no convergence at all. Please compare your condition of God to that of the Jews. There is no common ground that is significant, yet you share the same book; Bible or you borrow their part which you do not honor!


The believe that the Muslim have in Isa bin Mariam is exactly what he wishes people have of him. Your idolization of him, will be a detriment to your salvation starting at the point of deat. Oh and none of you will escape death!

Finally, you can call a person all the title you want or lack of his true identity, that will not change him! A slave of God is every human being. Wvery prophet. And the miracles of Musa were more and very significant at least as that of Jesus! Yet he was not God or "begotten" son or any son. Everyone knows that God has no need for a son, or daughter or both!

This is the reason I am not in the Muslim/Christian/Jewish dialogue club. The Jesus of the Bible is not the same as the Isa bin Mariam of Islam. Now compare your jesus god or son of god and dead jesus to Islam's position. You will see where we are different and no convergence at all.

Thanks for your sincerrity about that but not all muslims know that

Please compare your condition of God to that of the Jews. There is no common ground that is significant, yet you share the same book; Bible or you borrow their part which you do not honor!

And you are now saying, there was comparation between islam and judaisim right? same fallacy,you are shielded it from falling into the xtian path, now it is the jews they are now comparing, and may i say, you only speak your thought cos jews jews have common gorunds with xtianity, sure you will disagree and commit that same fallacy you all have been commiting if even though i explain and i do not have time to waist.


The believe that the Muslim have in Isa bin Mariam is exactly what he wishes people have of him. Your idolization of him, will be a detriment to your salvation starting at the point of deat. Oh and none of you will escape death!

Says who? muhammad , Allah or You, Jesus was before the creation of the world and was not revealed as a man because his time of glorification has not come. But whether you like it or not Jesus is God. We do not force to acknowledge but in the last days, you will bow to him and it is not a probability, it is a surelty.

Finally, you can call a person all the title you want or lack of his true identity, that will not change him!

Should I help you {He is the Alfa and Omega, the First and Last, the beginning and the End, the Bright and Morning Star, the Son of Rigtheousness, the First born of God, the only begotten of God, the First among the dead, the ressurection and the life, the Prince of Peace, the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords, the acient of Days, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the great I am, the great delieverer, the saviour of mankind, the most high}, if you want more i can help you with them, there is no other one like him not even muhammad could claim he is God, but he is God and there is nothing any one can do about it, not even till there, there have been proves that yes, jesus is God

A slave of God is every human being. Wvery prophet.

As far as our God not allah is concerned, We are not slaves, we are servants and children of God, muhammad and his followers are the slaves of allah, and there are clear and definite differences between a child and a servant not even of the same God. and seriously, you are a slave to you you believe you are a slave of allah, but you are also a slave to Sin. so i sometimes do not doubt muslims when they declare that they are slaves of allah, but i also add this in my heart that also they are slaves to sin and the father and propagator of sin is the devil and that brings my conclusion to this that, ye are not only slaves of allah but also of the father and propagator of sin.

And the miracles of Musa were more and very significant at least as that of Jesus! Yet he was not God or "begotten" son or any son. Everyone knows that God has no need for a son, or daughter or both!

really, it is just a pity, that muhammad did not leave the arab world to the roman world at his time and he would be told that reverse was the story he propagated. Wait tell me, more than twelve men(i mean the disciples) proclaimed the same gospel, and some 600 yrs later, one detrenched slave came up and said it was not so. he could not give proves that he was God sent talk more of his false report that jesus was not God and that he was not crucified. But sure he was sent by allah and not the God the disciples serve or proclaim.the name allah never left the shores of not untill muhammad did proclaim the cock and bull stories of prophethood and revelations. And if you fdo not know, allah got 3 "begotten" daughters which brought about the stanic verses, how could the devil speak through a prophet? absolute lies and propanganda, even the prophets before him never claimed that but his own case was different, why? he was allah sent not God sent.

tell me are angel danerous when they approach humans, mary had that experience but it was not violent, daniel, zechariah and others, angels spoke to them, the first word the angel says is "do not be afraid", so where did muhammad got his theory of a violent shaking and sometime throwing him up and down, could that be an angel , no one ever saw an angel and gave such report except for muhammad. well, i'm not surprised. Jesus expected it.

yet Jesus is not God, 12 witnesses or more to 1, even when taken to the law court, your jury's verdict will be be "there is no sufficient evidence".
yet Jesus is not God, he was not born of man
yet jesus is not God, he is still alive
yet jesus is not God, he was more beautified and characterised than muhammad
yet jesus is not God, he will come back
yet jesus is not God, he will judge the world
yet Jesus is not God, his impact 2000 yrs ago or more is still felt till date
yet jesus is not God, he saves, he delievers
yet jesus is not God, he performed sure miracles not tales we hear today about muhammad false so called miralces.

Think man, think, John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth and the life, no one cometh to the father except by me."

@Dankol: I have no intention of going to the father, so I have no need for Biblical Jesus! But then you say Jesus was not born of a man. But who is Mary from? The bloodline of other than man? I bear as last name, unfortunately my great grandfather, o at least my grandfather! My children even have this same last name!

Who is really the father of my children? Are we humans not called cildren of Adam? Was Jesus not called son of King David?

A real Alpha and Omega! What shape was Jesus before he came as a baby of his Mother Mary? What shape was Adam at creation?Who assumed the human shape first, Adam or Jesus? Who came as a full grown without a mother and or a father? Is that person's being to reality (human) not more miraculous than the one who came through pregnancy of a mother as an infant?

Is Eve being (Human) les miraculous than this since she was transformed to a grown woman, ready to be a mother from plain ol rib?

Please buddy, dont make me laugh!

We are not discussing you, we are discussing Jesus right, so you are inferior in reference to him, and what i mean there is that? he was not biologically born. so get me right
Moroever, well, sure you do know the meaning of alfa and Omega, let me help you with more to think of (El-shaddai, Elohim,Elolam,Tsidkenu, Adonai, Jireh, Rapha, Nissi, Shalom, shammah, Saboath, Rohi, Elyon, El-Gibor, the advocate, the atoner of sins, author of our faith, author of life, bread of life, the bridegroom, the chief cornerstone, the chief sheperd, faithful and true, the Good Shepherd, Head of the Church,Heir of all things, High Priest, Holy and True, Holy One, Hope of Glory, Horn of Salvation, Image of God, Immanuel, Judge of the living and the dead, King Eternal). if you want more, they are uncountable and can make people like you Uncomfortable.

dankol:

We are not discussing you, we are discussing Jesus right, so you are inferior in reference to him, and what i mean there is that? he was not biologically born. so get me right
Moroever, well, sure you do know the meaning of alfa and Omega, let me help you with more to think of (El-shaddai, Elohim,Elolam,Tsidkenu, Adonai, Jireh, Rapha, Nissi, Shalom, shammah, Saboath, Rohi, Elyon, El-Gibor, the advocate, the atoner of sins, author of our faith, author of life, bread of life, the bridegroom, the chief cornerstone, the chief sheperd, faithful and true, the Good Shepherd, Head of the Church,Heir of all things, High Priest, Holy and True, Holy One, Hope of Glory, Horn of Salvation, Image of God, Immanuel, Judge of the living and the dead, King Eternal). if you want more, they are uncountable and can make people like you Uncomfortable.

i can't stop laughing at the quality of some of the fools that follow osisi and nackson

islam is based on anti- Christian and anti-jewish mentality, its not new to me, i was born a muslim, they propagate the religion by finding faults in others, are they afraid of anything?

Never have i heard my pastor talk about islam( because it doesn't count), the bigger they are the easier they fall, they don't count.

JESUS IS LORD

and it has been getting swollen since 610! Islam is also ant atheism, agnostics, hinduism, taoism, confusionizm, buhddism, ifaism, shangoism, ogbanjeism, etc! and being born a muslim does not qualify anyone to islam! al aqeedah is what makes one a muslim.

I didn't know people were full of this much hate towards the religion of peace.yet u call muslims aggresive! subhanallah!love ur neighbour as urself,isn't that what the bible says?