Religious Forgiveness Or Escape Route? - Religion - Nairaland
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| Religious Forgiveness Or Escape Route? by johnydon22(m): 11:37am On Jan 28, 2016 |
[b]It is a normal mantra both in Islam and Christianity and many other religions around for people to seek forgiveness from God(s) for their actions towards one another. . This is a way to rid the culpable of the responsibilities of their actions towards others. Such ideas not only is it disturbing but is a societal vice and a detriment to the well being of a societal system. I have once mentioned this on my diary, an instance where i heard a female pastor giving prayer line to her congregation said .. "Let us ask God for forgiveness for anyway we sinned against him by offending a fellow human " As a normal occurrence as this, it is a ridiculous idea.. Why should humans beg their respective God for forgiveness and not the actual victims of their ill action? We humans live in societies and this one reality inclines us towards modifying our actions in relation to others around us. Forgiveness is a vital aspect of human socialism because it ensures continuation of societal relationships. But to who? Consider these examples. You offended Mr A. afterwards feels the weight of your actions towards him and seek to gain closure. You enter your room, church, mosque or confess to a priest. then beg God for forgiveness while Mr A. who is the real victim of your actions is still hurting from the effects of that action? Is this really forgiveness? On a second instance you offend Mr A. Afterwards feels the weight of your actions towards him and to gain closure you go back to Mr A and ask for his forgiveness... Who out of the two instances actually gained forgiveness and which out of the two instances would you agree is necessary for continual mutual societal relationship? Should humans seek forgiveness from deities or rather should that act of contrition be exercised towards the actual victims of our ill actions? This is one of the disturbing dangerous ideas i have observed from religious practises, it leaves the culpable begging their respective God(s) for forgiveness instead of the actual victims of their actions.. A woman once put up a defence for this, she said: "We ask forgiveness from God because by offending others we offend God therefore we need forgiveness from God.." My reply to this was "Since by offending a fellow human you offend your God, doesn't it appeal to logic that by obtaining forgiveness from that same person you also gain it from your God?" why should we leave the victims of our actions and seek to obtain forgiveness from deities? It is an untold form of societal injustice, a lurking cankerworm to societal health and healthy relationship. That selfish, unjust, unfair and absurd idea of begging a deity for forgiveness instead of the one you offended in particular is a very dangerous aspect of religious doctrines. People should be honest enough to own up to their mistakes, own up to their actions and their achievements. Our actions are towards humans, and so our reconciliation always should be towards humans. this is like covering a piece of dirt with a cloth deluding ourselves we have gotten rid of the dirt that is exactly the delusion one exercises when they ask their respective God for forgiveness to the detriment of the victim. It is a pitiable reality that many humans cannot derive ethical directions from their relationship with others in the society but requires the prospect of torture and promise of reward from the claim of an external authority in order to exert ethical actions towards others. we are indeed a sorry lot. Why should we care what deities lurking only in the pages of a book thinks of our relationship with fellow humans, why do we need such preposterous claims to modify our behaviours in relation with others in the society? If we humans can be more loyal to ourselves and our society and less so to abstract concepts like deities then we would treat each other a little better ... If people considered this, we wouldn't have people killing or discriminating against others in the name of deities.. Why should people delude themselves with the "forgiveness" mantra from their God(s) when the actual victims still bear the negative effects of their actions. Another of this preposterous lines, one i find to be very idiotic is "It is the devil's handiwork" Reveals a selfish human who cannot own up to the responsibility of their actions but needs an escape goat to heap the blame on. Our actions are as a result of our own volition and not the string play of some devil puppeteer. A rapist is not driven by any devil or the clothing of the victim, but only acted stupi_d because he is too stupi_d to stop himself from doing stupi_d things. Shifting the goal post of blame from the culpable to a fictional escape goat is the worse form of psychological cowardice. I can never trust a person who blames a devil for his/her mistakes. I am human, my actions are of my own volition. I neither blame a devil for my mistakes or give a deity credit for my achievements or that of mankind.. My actions good or bad are mine and my responsibility. We live in a human society, our actions towards each other must gear towards mutual societal well being. Our actions are for ourselves and other humans in our society. when we realize this, we will understand that we neither need forgiveness from angry deities but from ourselves and others around us, it is necessary for our own relationship. [/b] 23 Likes 10 Shares |
| Re: Religious Forgiveness Or Escape Route? by onetrack(m): 11:54am On Jan 28, 2016 |
It's a way of getting rid of the cognitive dissonance (i.e. the guilt for having wronged somebody), without having to deal with the damage to our egos by actually having to apologize to someone. 4 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: Religious Forgiveness Or Escape Route? by Nobody: 12:05pm On Jan 28, 2016 |
Hello Johnydon22. Although your post is quite long (as usual  ), it is also quite relevant and to some extend true.However, you seem to imply that asking God for forgiveness and asking the victim of our wrongdoings for forgiveness, are mutually exclusive. This of course is not true. It makes perfect sense to someone who believes he was created by God and who deviated from the will of that God, to ask God for forgiveness first, then ask the victim of his evil act also for forgiveness. Nonetheless, you are absolutely right in my perception in this: The religious belief, held by some religious groups, that it is enough to ask God for forgiveness, quote any prayer, confess before a religious leader or call upon the blood of Jesus and the right like, to have one's sins miraculously wiped away, contradicts Justice and Love. Whatever a man sows that shall he reaps in multiple. There is no religious ceremony or invocation, that can take away the wrongs of someone. Everyone must himself atone for his wrongdoings, or face the full consequences of his actions/words/thoughts in this life or the next. Sincerely changing one's attitude, asking the offended person for forgiveness, and helping others who are tempted to do the same wrong in overcoming the trial, are good steps to atone for your sins, and are likely to either reduce the consequences of those, or in some case completely eliminate them. Above all, we should all love our neighbour as (and possibly more than) ourselves. That is the way to true happy living, and spiritual ascent. Thank you Johnydon22 once more, for your objective analysis. Cheerful greetings. 3 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: Religious Forgiveness Or Escape Route? by menesheh(m): 12:18pm On Jan 28, 2016 |
People, feeling that god is by their sides often say "god is JUST and MERCYFUL". I always feel with amazement how some smart dudes always fail to oberve the aperent law of non-contradiction voilated. Perfect justice with ill mercy are counter intuitive. That's the reason why Christianity and its kinds allow people to do immoral things with the hope that mere babbling and kneeling down will get things solved. There was this chat between Dillahunty and a caller asking him "what if somebody kill a bunch of people and kill himself, what will be his spiritual punishment" Dillahunty answered that the punishment is that the perpetrator will be dead. Dillahunty asked him in return "what if somebody killed a bunch of people and prayed, then he got saved, what will be his punishment?" the caller couldn't answer anything. This is a situation where hideous crimes are meted with ill mercy through praying and believing while potential justice and punishment or even restitution are overlooked. It is a crazy concept of which any society that takes the teaching of christain forgiveness and justices serious, dystopia sort of living will emerge in such a society. 7 Likes 2 Shares |
| Re: Religious Forgiveness Or Escape Route? by Oluwaseytiano(m): 12:24pm On Jan 28, 2016 |
Very true. It seems the human mind has been programmed to always seek the easy way out. 9 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: Religious Forgiveness Or Escape Route? by dorox(m): 12:51pm On Jan 28, 2016 |
@jonnhdon22. Matthew 5:23 makes it clear that we must be at peace with our neighbors before coming to God's altar. Anyone who understands the message of christ knows that we cannot ask God fod forgivenes for something we did against our fellow man without first of all asking that person for forgiveness. |
| Re: Religious Forgiveness Or Escape Route? by johnydon22(m): 4:48pm On Jan 28, 2016 |
onetrack:Truer than true |
| Re: Religious Forgiveness Or Escape Route? by hahn(m): 5:09pm On Jan 28, 2016 |
| Re: Religious Forgiveness Or Escape Route? by johnydon22(m): 5:18pm On Jan 28, 2016 |
hahn:Lol.. there are always room for others to add their own views |
| Re: Religious Forgiveness Or Escape Route? by hahn(m): 5:21pm On Jan 28, 2016 |
johnydon22: Ifa hear! Wetin I wan talk after that epistle?  |
| Re: Religious Forgiveness Or Escape Route? by johnydon22(m): 5:23pm On Jan 28, 2016 |
hahn:Lmao... Your own opinion na |
| Re: Religious Forgiveness Or Escape Route? by hahn(m): 5:56pm On Jan 28, 2016 |
| Re: Religious Forgiveness Or Escape Route? by Outofsync(m): 6:49pm On Jan 28, 2016 |
Word 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: Religious Forgiveness Or Escape Route? by Nobody: 12:04am On Jan 29, 2016 |
menesheh:True. 1 Like |
| Re: Religious Forgiveness Or Escape Route? by johnydon22(m): 1:08pm On Jan 29, 2016 |
hahn:Then lets invite the mods to do the needful lets hear more opinions. Cc. Lalasticlala Mynd44 2 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: Religious Forgiveness Or Escape Route? by bqlekan(m): 3:00pm On Jan 29, 2016 |
johnydon22: Stop wasting your time abeg... those mods won't show up In Islam, you ask God for forgiveness for committing a sin against a fellow human. But the one you commit the sin against must forgive you too, if not, he can ask for retribution on the day of judgement.. So one must ask the offended human for forgiveness... Nice write up 1 Like |
| Re: Religious Forgiveness Or Escape Route? by johnydon22(m): 4:08pm On Jan 29, 2016 |
bqlekan:This remains the point, you owe no one an apology but the person who your action is directly directed to. We do not need forgiveness from God(s) over our relationship with one another but rather we need forgiveness from ourselves and all others around us who are victims of our ill action. Our loyalty should more be to our own kind than to vague concepts 2 Likes 2 Shares |
| Re: Religious Forgiveness Or Escape Route? by bqlekan(m): 5:04pm On Jan 29, 2016 |
johnydon22: According to my doctrines, I was commanded not too cheat an orphan. Let is assume I did mistakenly cheat an orphan, I've not only disobeyed God, I've also offended an innocent orphan. So I have to ask for God's forgiveness for disobeying him. Also I have to ask the orphan for forgiveness for cheating him/her. |
| Re: Religious Forgiveness Or Escape Route? by johnydon22(m): 5:10pm On Jan 29, 2016 |
bqlekan:So i take it if your doctrine does not tell you not to cheat you couldn't have deducted it is a societal vice to cheat on your own? If you cheat your crime is cheating and that action remains one towards the person you cheated. If following your logic you offend God by cheating the orphan doesn't it appeal to logic that by making amends you should also have appeased God.. Or is God some egocentric entity that demands you beg when your action is not towards him neither can it be.. 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: Religious Forgiveness Or Escape Route? by bqlekan(m): 5:33pm On Jan 29, 2016 |
johnydon22:Lol, I can't debate God with you.. nothing I say here will convince you.. And yes, it is a social norm to be upright, religion only thought us how to be more upright. And you don't believe in any... |
| Re: Religious Forgiveness Or Escape Route? by johnydon22(m): 5:37pm On Jan 29, 2016 |
bqlekan:Lmao.. But you don't need religion to teach you to be ethical unless of course you lack independent moral basis which is a sorry state for sure. in fact i can point out to you many of these religious ethics that are not even near moral. So now let me show you that you don't need religion to be ethical.. "So if your religion didn't say Don't kill, you cannot figure out killing was wrong on your own?" 2 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: Religious Forgiveness Or Escape Route? by bqlekan(m): 5:45pm On Jan 29, 2016 |
johnydon22: Johnny, abeg.. leave me alone... religious thought me not to gamble, it thought me not to take alcohol (not even a pint) taught me not to eat pork, taught me not to smoke there are many actions the society sees as norms but really aren't norms.. |
| Re: Religious Forgiveness Or Escape Route? by johnydon22(m): 5:52pm On Jan 29, 2016 |
bqlekan:I do not do any of these like gamble or smoke and am not religious... Moreover i don't see why your religion sees nothing wrong in a 59 year old man marrying a 9 year old but is telling you not to eat pork, that is a misplaced moral idea. So you cannot determine and make your own choice of life based on what you find to be good for you but relies on the idea of another to do that for you? Thats more like having no mind of your own.. You see, religion is not a determinant of ethics unless for one who lacks independency in principle and reason.. I decide my own life and live my own life and not off people's idea this makes my life my own. I ask again "Without religion telling you not to do the things you listed above or kill, you would be doing them?" You dodging you know  2 Likes 2 Shares |
| Re: Religious Forgiveness Or Escape Route? by Nobody: 6:02pm On Jan 29, 2016 |
bqlekan: You coulda learnt those things yourself too. Religion taught people at a time when people needed inspiration as far as right and wrong. Today religion is redundant unless you still need to be taught basics. Today science is my teacher. Religion is my friend. Not teacher thou lol |
| Re: Religious Forgiveness Or Escape Route? by johnydon22(m): 6:06pm On Jan 29, 2016 |
Nubian113:Someone gets the point i was trying to drive into bqlekan. You do not need religion to be moral or have a healthy ethical attitude in a society.. If you cannot determine what is right from wrong then you lack empathy not religion. If people cannot determine what they find to be ok in relation to others around them but needs to be coerced into submission by religious ideas mostly with the threat of torture and the promise of reward then we are in a sorry state.. 2 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: Religious Forgiveness Or Escape Route? by bqlekan(m): 6:08pm On Jan 29, 2016 |
johnydon22: I'm a man because I can make my own choice.. that is the difference between me and angels.. our self will is not just a blessing, it also makes us prone to errors.. so yes, I can make a mistake, I can eat pork, gamble, smoke etc. Religion is there as a guide and also as a fear factor for us to be upright. If there were no religions, I probably might decide to be a hired killer (at least it pays well), or be an armed robber, or eat snakes, pork, etc. I won't have this fear of the afterlife in me.. so it helps me to be more upright... And no, I'm not dodging  |
| Re: Religious Forgiveness Or Escape Route? by johnydon22(m): 6:18pm On Jan 29, 2016 |
bqlekan:From what you have shown us here you do not make your own choice, your religion does that for you. If i gamble or smoke it will be because i choose to do them not a mistake but an act of my own volition.. You see the difference between us? I do things because i want to, you do them out of obligation .. I cannot wrap my head around the fact that there are humans who wouldn't find the need to be ethical unless coerced with fear into it. You have shown to be roped into your religious ideas in determining your moral outlook, worse of all you require to be coerced by fear... Surely you have shown to lack independent principle and reason as regards morality. ISIS and BOKO HARAM both have religion and still they kill and maim and cause untold mayhem on the planet... You see, religion is not a determinant of morality. And you need to be threatened into conformity with the threat of torture and promise of a reward ? this of course shows you never really have been good but is using the act of "goodness" as a means to achieve "selfish" goals of evading punishment or gaining a reward not because you really wanted to be good. You have only shown you lack independency in your own reason to formulate your own principles and live by them but need to be leashed by religious ideas of another human for guidance. that is a sorry way to live.. You are.. the question remains. "So if religion did not tell you that killing is wrong, you couldn't have figured it out on your own? YES or NO 2 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: Religious Forgiveness Or Escape Route? by bqlekan(m): 6:29pm On Jan 29, 2016 |
Nubian113: Nah, religion is not redundant.. the extremist makes it look so. We all have our brains for a reason.. we should not just follow blindly, we are to re-analyse and see how our beliefs suites us and our enviroments.. most people today just follow the scriptures blindly.. Study it, re-gurgitate on it apply it to your environment, then live by it..that has always been how I do mine |
| Re: Religious Forgiveness Or Escape Route? by bqlekan(m): 6:39pm On Jan 29, 2016 |
johnydon22: Chai... you didn't get my point.. but I understand yours.. I won't discuss religio. With you abeg Don't worry, I will someday, not just today.. The answer remains I don't know which choice I would have made.. maybe right or wrong |
| Re: Religious Forgiveness Or Escape Route? by johnydon22(m): 6:43pm On Jan 29, 2016 |
bqlekan:Then my advice is, Find out now that which you should have made that is the mark of independent reason and principles... 1 Like 1 Share |
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