DeepSight:
It is quite amusing to see Messrs Plaetton and Homer refer to self evident evil and the like, after such a long and tiresome insistence on moral subjectivity.

If morality is relative and subjective, I really don't know on what ground Yahweh can be condemned for even the most seemingly heinous acts. Nothing can be condemned, frankly, with such a worldview. In fact, words such as "evil", " bad" and "wrong" should not even exist.

However I expect these folk - Messrs Homer, AIO, Plaetton, Wiegraf and co - to continue chasing their tails in this matter ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

Go home Deepsight, you're drunk.

Yes, really.

Now tell me, what is the difference between Deuteronomy 22:28-29 you quoted where he seized the woman and Exodus 22:16-17 where he seduced the woman? What is the difference between seduction and seizing?

Joshthefirst:
Oh really?

Deut 22:25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die:*n25.1
Deut 22:26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:
Deut 22:27 For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.


Deuteronomy 22:28-29 “If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days."

Exodus 22:16-17 “If a man seduces a virgin who is not betrothed and lies with her, he shall give the bride price for her and make her his wife. If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money equal to the bride price for virgins."


The bolded talked about the same issue.

Note that throughout the Old Testament no rape victim is ever recorded as being forced to marry a rapist.

KingEbukasBlog:


Women remain protected as the raped unbetrothed woman is now married to the man who raped her and the man is told sternly not to divorce her . Isn't it fair enough

Your depravity is beyond anything that I've seen on nairaland yet.

thehomer:


You don't think there's something wrong with thinking that the aftermath of rape should be marriage to the victim and money being paid to the father? Would this be your position if you had a daughter or sister who isn't engaged? What is wrong with you?

One of the punishments of rape is death . The other is to force the man to marry who he raped . The Israelites were nomadic at that time and there is no time to throw someone in prison . So its immediate judgement that was the course of action taken against offenders in accordance to rules .

So you think the fact that rape victims are prone to committing suicide isn't something important to be considered but to be banished as an ordinary appeal to emotions? Sheesh. You people.

"You people" - that's offensive

Anyway . I was not to there to know how rape victims fared . But the man the rape victim got married to is expected to take care of her . And off course her family is there to monitor her well being .

PastorAIO:


Your depravity is beyond anything that I've seen on nairaland yet.

From someone who has no moral guide . From someone who lets the society detect what's right or wrong for him ?

PastorAIO:

The proof that this moral instinct comes to expression subjectively can be found throughout human history and also in the bible where we see an evolution of morality. In fact I think the bible is the best document to support the subjectivity of morality.

God does not confer morality otherwise atheists would not be moral. However God does buttress whatever moral stance you've already taken and if that moral stance allows rape then God might even encourage you to rape.

I enjoyed your entire post but especially this part.

We already exist as morally-inclined beings innately; if some semblance of "rightness", cooperation, & concern for the collective wellbeing of our groups was not indeed inherent, our species would have died out long ago. We as humans are, and have always been dependent on eachother to survive. Thus it is clear that some form of morality would need to exist biologically. And of course, we do see this played out in light of the brain. Individuals with a damaged pre-frontal cortex in the areas known to contribute to self-restraint and compassion, display a markedly decreased capacity for sympathy or regret in harming others.

Invoking any deity in the question of morality is superfluous and not useful. It is clear just by reading the bible (which indeed justifies slavery and murder among other atrocities) that Yahweh did not grant us anything close to a perfect understanding of good and evil, if there were one. We can already see that the secular governments of today are light years ahead of the laws that were followed in biblical times (like paying the equivalent of a few bucks to the father of the girl you raped, or stoning a women that was found not to be a virgin on her wedding night). The onus is, and has always been on humans & their societies to determine what is morally ideal for their collective wellbeing - with our innate moral compasses as a starting point.

Not to mention, the writers of the bible did not come up with anything revolutionary by any stretch. If there WERE some ideal objective moral code, I would quicker look to Buddhist texts which promote unconditional compassion and liberation from anger, impulsivity, and wrath (and ironically preceded the bible by over 1,000 years). Yahweh could probably learn a little something from the Buddha. But I digress, lol.

Assertions , assertions . Morality is innate . What put it in us ? She'll invoke evolution . Ignorance

PastorAIO:


Your depravity is beyond anything that I've seen on nairaland yet.

I genuinely don't think he's capable of processing ideas that deviate from his preconceived notions - which he's set on defending regardless of how ridiculous he makes himself out to be in the process. I've personally given up on engaging him, it's a dead end.

KingEbukasBlog:


"You people" - that's offensive

Not as offensive as dismissing the suicidal tendencies of rape victims as 'bs' and an 'appeal to emotions'.

Anyway . I was not to there to know how rape victims fared . But the man the rape victim got married to is expected to take care of her . And off course her family is there to monitor her well being .

When a guy resorts to raping a woman I presume that it is because the woman has not desire to have sex with him. If he then marries her it just means that she is condemned to having life long sex with a guy who she doesn't want to have sex with. Where is her well being in that?

The shocking thing in all of these passages is that there is absolutely no concern for the welfare of the girl in question. Sad!!

KingEbukasBlog:


From someone who has no moral guide . From someone who lets the society detect what's right or wrong for him ?

LOL

I do have a moral guide, as does everybody in this world. And you too!! But you've rejected your true moral guide and sought guidance from a nasty text full of depravities and it's showing in your words.

I don't let society 'detect' right or wrong for me either. I don't know where you get these from. Obviously not from anything I've said. You're just inventing stuff now out of frustration.

KingEbukasBlog:
Assertions , assertions . Morality is innate . What put it in us ? She'll invoke evolution . Ignorance

Who put it in us is a different issue altogether. What is certain is that it is not a Character that endorses rape, murder and plunder.

KingEbukasBlog:


From someone who has no moral guide . From someone who lets the society detect what's right or wrong for him ?

Isn't that the great irony here ?

Your sense of right and wrong are very very scary.
Very.

cloudgoddess:

I enjoyed your entire post but especially this part.

We already exist as morally-inclined beings innately; if some semblance of "rightness", cooperation, & concern for the collective wellbeing of our groups was not indeed inherent, our species would have died out long ago. We as humans are, and have always been dependent on eachother to survive. Thus it is clear that some form of morality would need to exist biologically. And of course, we do see this played out in light of the brain. Individuals with a damaged pre-frontal cortex in the areas known to contribute to self-restraint and compassion, display a markedly decreased capacity for sympathy or regret in harming others.

Invoking any deity in the question of morality is superfluous and not useful. It is clear just by reading the bible (which indeed justifies slavery and murder among other atrocities) that Yahweh did not grant us anything close to a perfect understanding of good and evil, if there were one. We can already see that the secular governments of today are light years ahead of the laws that were followed in biblical times (like paying the equivalent of a few bucks to the father of the girl you raped, or stoning a women that was found not to be a virgin on her wedding night). The onus is, and has always been on humans & their societies to determine what is morally ideal for their collective wellbeing - with our innate moral compasses as a starting point.

Not to mention, the writers of the bible did not come up with anything revolutionary by any stretch. If there WERE some ideal objective moral code, I would quicker look to Buddhist texts which promote unconditional compassion and liberation from anger, impulsivity, and wrath (and ironically preceded the bible by over 1,000 years). Yahweh could probably learn a little something from the Buddha. But I digress, lol.

Excellent piece, for those capable of comprehension.

cloudgoddess:

I genuinely don't think he's capable of processing ideas that deviate from his preconceived notions - which he's set on defending regardless of how ridiculous he makes himself out to be in the process. I've personally given up on engaging him, it's a dead end.

That's the problem with these guys.
They seek to define everything only on their own preconceived terms, including your own words.

Joshthefirst:


Note that throughout the Old Testament no rape victim is ever recorded as being forced to marry a rapist.

Throughout the bible nowhere is toilet roll mentioned. Can we hereby conclude that Moses never wiped his yansh after taking a poo?

KingEbukasBlog:


One of the punishments of rape is death . The other is to force the man to marry who he raped . The Israelites were nomadic at that time and there is no time to throw someone in prison . So its immediate judgement that was the course of action taken against offenders in accordance to rules .

You think a man marrying someone he raped is punishment? Are you serious or just joking?

KingEbukasBlog:

"You people" - that's offensive

I intended offense. I find it offensive that you think someone marrying the person they raped is punishment fitting the crime.

KingEbukasBlog:

Anyway . I was not to there to know how rape victims fared . But the man the rape victim got married to is expected to take care of her . And off course her family is there to monitor her well being .

Whether you were there or not is irrelevant. We have statistics today showing suicide rates among rape victims. Do you think the person who was raped would be happy living with her rapist? Do you think women living in those times were better off than women today?

PastorAIO:


Not as offensive as dismissing the suicidal tendencies of rape victims as 'bs' and an 'appeal to emotions'.

Sharap . Can you provide biblical proof that indeed rape victims committed suicide . Or are you going to make senseless assumptions as usual

When a guy resorts to raping a woman I presume that it is because the woman has not desire to have sex with him. If he then marries her it just means that she is condemned to having life long sex with a guy who she doesn't want to have sex with. Where is her well being in that?

The shocking thing in all of these passages is that there is absolutely no concern for the welfare of the girl in question. Sad!!

You exude ignorance with no shame . During the bible times , men do not marry non-virgins . Non-virgins are usually stoned to death . A rape victim is not culpable of the loss of her virginity - she has that impunity from the law

A rape victim has to marry her defiler so that she would not be lonely or fail to procreate . If she fails to marry her defiler and conceived from the coi.tus she had with him then her child becomes a bastard - rejected by the society , has no rights to any inheritance .

Hebrews were nomadic and immediate judgement were made to punish any offender

1. Since she would not be accepted by any man , she has no other choice than obey the law and marry her defiler - this happens when she is unbetrothed .

a. They are obligated to be in love as a married couple - a commandment by God . God 's law admonishes the Israelites to forgive , so its rational to assume that she must have forgiven her man for the love and respect she has for God and will learn to love him as commanded by God .

b. Her family monitors her well being in the marriage .

2. The rapist is put to death . She is then lawfully permitted to marry her lover as a non-virgin - accepted by the society , ordained by God . This happens if she is betrothed .

One more thing , you are talking as if rape was prevalent at that time . The laws against rape would certainly deter one from committing such heinous act . They were nomadic with God as their judge so no evil goes unpunished .

PastorAIO:


LOL

I do have a moral guide, as does everybody in this world. And you too!! But you've rejected your true moral guide and sought guidance from a nasty text full of depravities and it's showing in your words.

I don't let society 'detect' right or wrong for me either. I don't know where you get these from. Obviously not from anything I've said. You're just inventing stuff now out of frustration.

So who /what laid down the moral guide for you ?

Moral guide should from the embodiment of moral good - I imbibed my good morals from studying the life of Christ - the embodiment of moral good - God .

Its easy . Here are three depravities which certain societies now deem lawful

1. Abortion
2. Prostitution
3. Homosexuality

With God's laws as my moral guide , I know that the above are wrong regardless of what the society thinks of it .

Now if you were a citizen of the society that condones this "supposed" depravities , what will be your opinion ? Huh ?

And if you are against the law . What makes your dogmatic stance right or true ?

It's funny and ironic that those who come here to defend and promote their faith , actually end up woefully disgracing their faith.

KingEbukasblog, JOshthefirst.. is Truth Eternal? Can Truth Change?

KingEbukasBlog:


So who /what laid down the moral guide for you ?

Moral guide should from the embodiment of moral good - I imbibed my good morals from studying the life of Christ - the embodiment of moral good - God .

Its easy . Here are three depravities which certain societies now deem lawful

1. Abortion
2. Prostitution
3. Homosexuality

With God's laws as my moral guide , I know that the above are wrong regardless of what the society thinks of it .

Now if you were a citizen of the society that condones this "supposed" depravities , what will be your opinion ? Huh ?

And if you are against the law . What makes your dogmatic stance right or true ?

Another funny thing is that the societies where abortion, prostitution and homosexuality are legal are by far predominantly Christian Nations.

Secondly, a simple statistics taken from Nigeria, for example , would show that the far majority of Abortions, prostitution and homosexuality are by people who are Christians, or who subscribe to one of our two Abrahamic religions.

So what gives ?

plaetton:


Another funny thing is that the societies where abortion, prostitution and homosexuality are legal are by far predominantly Christian Nations.

Secondly, a simple statistics taken from Nigeria, for example , would show that the far majority of Abortions, prostitution and homosexuality are by people who are Christians, or who subscribe to one of our two Abrahamic religions.

So what gives ?

They are not TRUE Christians. They do not properly reflect Christ.


Seriously, go through NL's frontpage. You'd find the vilest comments are usually made by those who proclaim their religion loudly. There's a stark difference between what people profess to believe and their own values. Their morality came ready-,made, from Israel, in 2000 BC. They never put it through reason and thought. GOD said, so I shall follow.

KingEbukasBlog:


Sharap . Can you provide biblical proof that indeed rape victims committed suicide . Or are you going to make senseless assumptions as usual

I guess it's okay for God to tell his people to rape women because we have no proof that they committed suicide thereafter.

You exude ignorance with no shame . During the bible times , men do not marry non-virgins . Non-virgins are usually stoned to death . A rape victim is not culpable of the loss of her virginity - she has that impunity from the law

Boaz married Ruth.

David married Bathsheba

Why was this written in Deuteronomy24?

Laws Concerning Divorce
24 “When a man takes a wife and marries her, if then she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and ehe writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, and she departs out of his house, 2 and if she goes and becomes another man’s wife,

Ignorance with no shame. Yes, very.

One more thing , you are talking as if rape was prevalent at that time . The laws against rape would certainly deter one from committing such heinous act . They were nomadic with God as their judge so no evil goes unpunished .

Excuse my ignorance with no shame but I believe that the Israelites settled in Canaan and had a very sedentary life. Unless you want to say that the law was given for them only for when they were 40 years in the wilderness.

I don't know how prevalent rape was at the time but the way they mention it in the bible without even batting an eyelid makes me fear for woman kind that lived in those times.

So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. “This is what you are to do,” they said. “Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin.” Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, “How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God’s curse.

Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, “Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, ‘Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn’t find enough wives for them when we dest60royed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'” So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.
Judges 21

It sounds pretty damn prevalent to me. Can you see how casually they go about raping and pillaging. I didn't see any deterrence from the Law against Rape. Attacking a city just to get it's virgins. And if it is Mohammed now, you would have opened at least 20 threads on this subject matter alone.

KingEbukasBlog:


So who /what laid down the moral guide for you ?

I don't know what this has to do with anything. yoruba says that we discovered our palm prints on our hands but we do not know who wrote them. I found a sense of morality within me.

Moral guide should from the embodiment of moral good - I imbibed my good morals from studying the life of Christ - the embodiment of moral good - God .

I didn't ask you anything, so please shut up. I have no desire to know where you got this depravity that you call your morality from.

sonOfLucifer:

They are not TRUE Christians. They do not properly reflect Christ.


Seriously, go through NL's frontpage. You'd find the vilest comments are usually made by those who proclaim their religion loudly. There's a stark difference between what people profess to believe and their own values. Their morality came ready-,made, from Israel, in 2000 BC. They never put it through reason and thought. GOD said, so I shall follow.

Who is a true Christian?

plaetton:


Another funny thing is that the societies where abortion, prostitution and homosexuality are legal are by far predominantly Christian Nations.

Secondly, a simple statistics taken from Nigeria, for example , would show that the far majority of Abortions, prostitution and homosexuality are by people who are Christians, or who subscribe to one of our two Abrahamic religions.

So what gives ?

Abeg don't indulge him with this abortion prostitution crap. Let us stay on topic. Is Zizek right when he says (I paraphrase) that God is a tool for validating atrocities?

lepasharon:


Who is a true Christian?

A true christian is one for whom, thanks to God, 'Everything is permitted'.

PastorAIO:


Is Zizek right when he says (I paraphrase) that God is a tool for validating atrocities?

Absolutely.

lepasharon:


Who is a true Christian?

A standard easy to define, hard to achieve, a mirage.

thehomer:


We have statistics today showing suicide rates among rape victims.

Ok bro thehomer . Kindly hold this popcorn for me while I get the soda from the refrigerator as I await your retrieval of statistics that showed the rate at which victims of rape in Israel committed suicide 3000 yrs ago .

As you can see I brought enough tho

uncle plaetton , PastorAIO , kay17 should join the waiting party .

PastorAIO:


I guess it's okay for God to tell his people to rape women because we have no proof that they committed suicide thereafter.




Boaz married Ruth.

David married Bathsheba

Why was this written in Deuteronomy24?

Laws Concerning Divorce
24 “When a man takes a wife and marries her, if then she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and ehe writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, and she departs out of his house, 2 and if she goes and becomes another man’s wife,

Ignorance with no shame. Yes, very.




Excuse my ignorance with no shame but I believe that the Israelites settled in Canaan and had a very sedentary life. Unless you want to say that the law was given for them only for when they were 40 years in the wilderness.

I don't know how prevalent rape was at the time but the way they mention it in the bible without even batting an eyelid makes me fear for woman kind that lived in those times.

So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. “This is what you are to do,” they said. “Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin.” Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, “How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God’s curse.

Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, “Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, ‘Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn’t find enough wives for them when we dest60royed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'” So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.
Judges 21

It sounds pretty damn prevalent to me. Can you see how casually they go about raping and pillaging. I didn't see any deterrence from the Law against Rape. Attacking a city just to get it's virgins. And if it is Mohammed now, you would have opened at least 20 threads on this subject matter alone.

KingEbukasBlog:

…unless question marks