To get straight to the point, I'm sort of a freethinker that neither conforms nor bends to any particular side.
I'm not exactly an atheist because I feel it would be presumptuous of me to suppose with my limited knowledge that there is no greater force in the universe beyond my understanding, and yet at the same time I find it asinine to spend my Sundays praising the figures of Jewish lore as divine beings of fact and truth.

Either way, here are some questions I've been wondering for those of you Christians:

1. If Nigeria was never colonized by the white man, and the religion was never brought to Africa, would you believe honestly, that you would be a christian today?

2. If you were born in a non-christian household, and as such were not indoctrinated into christianity, would you still believe that Christ is your one true lord and saviour?

3. Do you believe that God created the world, or that mankind evolved to become who and what we are now?

A.If you believe that god created the world, are you aware of any scriptures referencing the creation of the other planets?
B.If you believe that mankind evolved, does that not cancel out the story of creation, of Adam and Eve, of the original sin and therefore make Christ's decision to die on the cross pointless?

4.If you were told, with utmost certainty, that there was no heaven and that there was no hell, would you still be a christian and would you still go to church?

And to the Atheists:

1.Do you simply dismiss the possibility of the Religious Gods and miracles, or do you feel that there is absolutely no possibility of the existence of any form of supernatural force in the vastness of the universe?

A.If you do feel so, what makes you so certain, that as a mere human with limited intelligence and lifespan, you can claim that there is no supernatural force in existence when you will live for less than a fraction of the time the earth has been in existence?

2.Why do most of you treat theists as though they are mentally incompetent, and simply cannot understand to let them believe what they wish to believe?

3.And lastly, most atheists claim that the theory of intelligent design is wrong, if so, then why can we not explain the discovery of overwhelmingly beautiful works of art naturally occurring such as the uniqueness of a Snowflake's shape and the arts of a butterfly's wings? Do you truly believe such beautiful works can occur naturally or by accident?

Reasonable answers please. Thank you.

Answer one:
I hope you use the Internet well and have found out that Jesus appears to people who by no means would have believed on him. Hence I know that if the white man never came... Somehow we would have gotten to know about Jesus. And I would always have believed else I would be a free thinker like you

Answer two:
Well I was born into a non Christian home and I still believed... Serving Jesus is not logical.. You can not reason it and it will make sense. God doesn't. Are sense... But when you have an encounter beyond books and theories you would simply believe in the spiritual world and the God who rules it.

Answer three:
I believe God created the world and the big bang theory was proven in Genesis 1 too. But man multiplied and improved as time went by.

Answer four:
Genesis 1 shows us about earth only and besides you can not make a firm argument unless you can tell me who called the name of this planet Earth.... Lols... It was God. So the scriptures you seek are Hebrews 11:3

Answer last question:
It's funny you expect us to believe in someone's proof without my own verification... After all in such things occur by seeing is believing... It's funny. I can't believe o unless I and the person can leave this world and come back... Someone who has not died is a fool to someone who has died and came back to life with a whole nation isreal as proof that he resurrected to this day. I can never allow a living human displace my faith in Jesus who died and rose again... Cos there is physical proof and I have seen it. I have had experiences and encounters.

But I have this to say to you... EVEN IF HEAVEN AND HE'LL WERE NOT REAL PLS LIVE A LIFE THAT WHEN YOU LIVE YOUR BODY ONE DAY WHICH IS COMPULSORY ENSURE THAT ANGELS COME FOR YOU OR JESUS KNOWS YOU AND ACCEPTS YOU. ELSE IF AS A FOOL YOU CONTINUE THINKING FREE AND WITHOUT DIRECTION FOR ETERNITY... YOU SUFFERING AND LONELINESS WILL BE UNBEARABLE. I WISH YOU WELL. SHALOM

Lucario007:


And to the Atheists:

1.Do you simply dismiss the possibility of the Religious Gods and miracles, or do you feel that there is absolutely no possibility of the existence of any form of supernatural force in the vastness of the universe?

Both Carl Sagan and Einstein great minds recognized that imaginations can take you beyond the limits of your reach, yet without empiricism imaginations becomes blind and uncertain.

So if we can imagine, there is a possibility of the existence of any form of force or forces call it what ever you will, supernatural, preternatural or even a confine of nature too.


In fact the universe itself is a collection of distinct forces so i am always at lost when people talk about what ever forces, i see a need for specification in order to derive a premise.

If you assert an independent persona because religious ideas of deities are always in the form of a person, so if by the supernatural force you are referring to an independent conscious persona out of nature but controls or created nature then since that is in the realm of imagination i see no reason why we should believe or agree to it as a truth.

Rather it should remain within the confines of imagination unless we empirically illuminates such manifestation.

Until then such speculation is blind in essence and i find it outrightly nonsensical to believe.

A.If you do feel so, what makes you so certain, that as a mere human with limited intelligence and lifespan, you can claim that there is no supernatural force in existence when you will live for less than a fraction of the time the earth has been in existence?

Nothing is impossible, that is a certain truth. . .But if you claim something to be, you've got to show 'how' you deducted that to be and demonstrate it in order to prove beyond doubt it's existentiality.

"Supernatural" is a vague term. You are a natural being, if you can ever perceive anything within this confines of nature then that thing must be another distinct manifestation of nature.

If you term something to be above nature and call it supernatural then you as a natural being will never perceive such vibrations, so there is no way for you to know if there is such a thing.

But if you claim to know there is then you either prove it or it is bogus... (My stance)

2.Why do most of you treat theists as though they are mentally incompetent, and simply cannot understand to let them believe what they wish to believe?

If everybody let anybody believe what they wanted, the church would have still maintained a Geocentric solar system (where the sun and other planets revolved around the earth)

If everybody let anybody believe anything they want people would still think epilepsy are demonic attacks.

No my good sir i say No to that, such beliefs are dangerous to human intellectual evolution.

Nothing should be above criticism, belief more so. we should place everything under the judgement of criticism, scrutiny because every ounce of idea out there has an effect on human collective intellectual evolution.

So we have gone past the era when truth is chastised in order to uphold gut feelings and personal beliefs that is totally absurd...


Nobody is stopping anybody from believing what they want but at the same time nobody should stop anybody from challenging these beliefs and how they affect the human society

That is the atheist stance at least mine as an atheist, so what are you saying, nobody is stopping anybody from believing anything we only scrutinize and challenge these beliefs and any belief that feels it is the truth should never be afraid of scrutiny or beg to deny others the right to criticize or challenge it's ideas.


because collectively it affects the human society and we are all humans living in a human society and so since it affects the human society it affects us and so by virtue of
being a part of the human society every human idea, belief, study is our business.

3.And lastly, most atheists claim that the theory of intelligent design is wrong, if so, then why can we not explain the discovery of overwhelmingly beautiful works of art naturally occurring such as the uniqueness of a Snowflake's shape and the arts of a butterfly's wings? Do you truly believe such beautiful works can occur naturally or by accident?
Reasonable answers please. Thank you.

Beauty is the product of the observer, and this complexity argument always brings about infinite regress.

-Here you are pointing at complex and beautiful natural manifestations to maybe suggest a designer.

-Now you are missing something, isn't this designer also complex? fully functional and intelligent? isn't it beautifully precise even more so than the nature you are pointing at.

So if nature needs to be designed then you'd also agree that this designer also must need to be designed, isn't?

and then the designer behind the designer must also require design and then we are in an infinite regress.

But if you argue the designer even though complex and precise and beautiful doesn't require a designer then all this above argument shatters since therefore you have shown something can be complex without being designed therefore nature does not also require a designer.

With the much about nature we know, it is that nature evolves it never stays the same and this natural development of self makes nature a complex system of random interaction filled with trials and errors.

Just how beautiful is nature in volcanoes, earth quakes, tsunamis, galaxies colliding, planetary bodies colliding, solar flares, solar winds, radiations?

Are these also the beautiful parts of nature that makes you assert a designer? beauty is a child of perception and from our perception there are things we can consider beautiful in nature and others we can consider absolutely horrible.

99.6% of this universe will kill you instantly, how is that so beautiful?

Nature has no goals or plans or set of desired design to achieve it just happens uncaring how it manifests, you think nature cares if people live in new york before an asteroid will crash down into the city?

Nature is very random and unplanned, beauty and horrible parts of natures speaks tons on how these manifestations are uncharted and unplanned but rather random.

there is no desired goal or scheme.

First instance, you as a natural entity was at a particular time in you development a tiny measly single cell then a zygote divides into more cells and keeps dividing into more cells and gets more complex.

You are an example of how nature derives complexity, from the simplest form it builds its way to complexity slowly and consistently even as you are now you are still developing and becoming more complex.


Early stars were just balls of burning hydrogen, the fusion created iron, oxygen and carbon and other heavier elements came into existence and then these elements joined the universal playing field and the possibilities of results widened.

now new stars formed with all these elements already present in them whereas older stars didn't have them originally.

development has taken place, nature have evolved and with the introduction of newer element from nuclear fusion a step of complexity has been achieved, that is how it keeps going, more interactions bringing out newer values and it gets even more.

-Take a look at a desertic sand dune, the lines are beautiful and precise and seems more likely to be a work of design by an artist but it is not, it is the chaotic random interaction of wind and dust and from whence a result emerges, a pattern.

from every random interaction there is always a pattern and a result.

Nature is always developing and this development makes it a MUST that it should be complex, if nature never evolves then the universe would have remained just a singularity..

Since Nature evolves then nature must, should and expectedly is Complex, shouldn't be a surprise

Yes as a human used to the works of human art and design, it is normal for one to attribute every other complex perception or manifestation as a work of design also but that is naive.

we are only quantifying everything that is within the confines of our own small ability or perception.

It is also normal for people to think the sun went round the earth merely by looking at the sun rise and set but that also is naive.

So you see, something being a normal line of thought doesn't always make it right it most times can be naive and overcoming naive ideas to find out the truth will be the only thing that can drive us into the next phase of our intellectual evolution.

Thank you

When you want to say something but Johnny says everything Lol.

All these people Mohammed, Jesus etc were real in the past world. But in the present world, we are being ruled by the books they wrote down and pass into the brains of the sincere seekers. However, the name of the TRUE GOD who created the UNIVERSE with a Big Bang is DOMINO REVERAD. he sent his sons into all the planets to do researches. JEHOVAH, EARTUM, EPHRADITE, MURMOH, CHALEB, EUCHLYDES, CHIMIDES and LARGAS were his sons who came to the earth.

JEHOVAH began to do evil and his name was changed to Satan by DOMINO REVERAD his father. Largas was influenced by the life of JEHOVAH(ALLAH) and his name was changed to LUCIFER. however, they agreed to work hand in hand to keep on deceiving the whole world, creating HELL FIRE for their worshippers, no matter how 'holy' they think they are.

read the DOCTRINE OF THE UFOS from my signature.

johnydon22:

"Supernatural" is a vague term. You are a natural being, if you can ever perceive anything within this confines of nature then that thing must be another distinct manifestation of nature.

If you term something to be above nature and call it supernatural then you as a natural being will never perceive such vibrations, so there is no way for you to know if there is such a thing.

But if you claim to know there is then you either prove it or it is bogus... (My stance)

your understanding or definiton of the Supernatural is not exactly what it is. Supernatural doesn't always have to mean something that can't be perceived with the senses. Supernatural rightly refers to processes, creatures or events that can't be explained by natural laws and seeming to involve powers that are not Limited by known natural laws. So you actually see the process or evidence in front of you, but no Universal law or logic can rightly explain the occurrence.

Beauty is the product of the observer, and this complexity argument always brings about infinite regress.

Its hard to find that people can't recognise beauty. I believe they just live in denial to suit their claims. Lets agree beauty is subjective, but Complexity!?!? No! Complexity can always be clear definited for every situation and system. Complexity is rightly defined as several different simple processes or structures, working together and interrelating and their independent activities collectively and consequently lead to achieving a common target or goal. The level of Complexity is determined by 2 factors. 1 is the level of difficulty of the feat actually achieved (for e.g catching a mouse with a mouse trap or flying into space with a rocket). Second is the number of these simple parts that play an active role in Making sure that the common goal of the whole system is achieved. A system is either Complex or simple. It is not subjective to observation or individual. Based on this definition, there are clearly numerous Complex processes in nature and no debate is required in this fact.

-Here you are pointing at complex and beautiful natural manifestations to maybe suggest a designer.

-Now you are missing something, isn't this designer also complex? fully functional and intelligent? isn't it beautifully precise even more so than the nature you are pointing at.

So if nature needs to be designed then you'd also agree that this designer also must need to be designed, isn't?

and then the designer behind the designer must also require design and then we are in an infinite regress.

the term supreme refers to "the greatest possible". If it has been established to you the possibility of the existense of a Supernatural realm where we know very little about based on our five sense, then its not so impossible that their are heirachies of power, position or influence of which one is supreme, having no other above him.

With the much about nature we know, it is that nature evolves it never stays the same and this natural development of self makes nature a complex system of random interaction filled with trials and errors.

Its true nature is constantly changing, but if you give an impression of nature "randomly" Making progress or increasing in Complexity when you previously established natural changes or processes have no aim, then you should rethink on the Complexity of life in itself and ask if such Complexities can exist randomly.
Based on your scientific knowledge, Maybe you should imagine what it was like several billions of years ago. Imagine yourself looking upon the hostility to life from space and think about the thousands of factors that you would have to put in place for life and habitability to exist. Do you really think all those factors were made available by random "trial and error"?. Trial and error is even a wrong term to use, since nature didn't have any aim or plan in mind, it wasn't trying to build or destroy anything, it was just taking random Steps as it was pushed aimlessly. If the process was indeed random, think of the several millions of wrong possible Steps away from life it could have taken. There are possibilities of million of hazardous changes it could have gone through that would make life on it totally impossible infinitely. But here we are today, teeming with millions of life on earth.

99.6% of this universe will kill you instantly, how is that so beautiful?

Exactly my point. The fact you are alive is a miracle as you can now see that 99.6% of the constituents and laws of the Universe are saying "no" to the idea of you existing. They have been screaming "No!" ever since the begining of time, through when life was said to be forming and evolving. But you are here today reading this.

First instance, you as a natural entity was at a particular time in you development a tiny measly single cell then a zygote divides into more cells and keeps dividing into more cells and gets more complex.

You are an example of how nature derives complexity, from the simplest form it builds its way to complexity slowly and consistently even as you are now you are still developing and becoming more complex.

Every possible thing an adult human can ever be or look like was already programmed in its DNA even as a zygote. Its not like some random forward changes occur that makes the infant grow into an adult which is the idea you are trying to portray. The process was confined to go that direction by the already programmed information it inherrited. It has been established that life always arises from former life, and this is what we can observe ongoing in nature. to think that the first life started from a random unsupervised chemical reaction in nature is what I would love to see explained and re-enacted. If the process happened a billion years ago, why did it stop? Why can't we readily observe it happening now, or was it a one time historical event that can never be repeated again? We should be able to relate to these scientific speculations if they are true. But what I can readily observe in my environment is that organic matter doesn't build in Complexity, Rather it degrades and decays with time.

Nature is always developing and this development makes it a MUST that it should be complex, if nature never evolves then the universe would have remained just a singularity..

Since Nature evolves then nature must, should and expectedly is Complex, shouldn't be a surprise

I have addressed this already, you are giving an impression of a random but uphill movement by nature which is not Exactly true. Complex is a very big term for something as mindless as nature to arrange. Think Of the Complexity of the eye and why it works so well. Light passes through the cornea to get to the inner eye. If the cornea wasn't translucent, seeing wouldn't be possible. Nature had a million options of the material to use in Making the cornea, yet it chose a translucent substance, perfect for the job. The fluid locked within the eye ball (in the aqueous and virteous cavity) has the exact viscosity and refractive index to cause light waves to refract (I.e bend) as it enter the eyes and hit relevant structures that would amplify sight (such as the lens and the retina). Nature had the choice of any other fluid at all, but it chose this particular fluid with the right refractive index that would make seeing this good. Nature also had a wide range of choices in determining the length of the eye ball space which would consequently alter the volumes of this fluid and also its refractive index which could potentially mess or make light target. But nature seemed to understand the basics of physics and placed exactly what was needed, right fluid, right volumes, right refractive index, et.c. This is the right example of a Complex system. Simple structures acting together, with different jobs, yet all achieving the same aim of ensuring sight. All these structures are arranged linearly to ensure light travels through the eye, and these structures even bend the light rays, making sure the light hits the intended targets.I don't have time to expound on the lens zooming capabilities or the retina, but the point im trying to make is if you just stop for a moment and think of the numerous possible wrong WAYS nature would have strayed (if it indeed proceeds undirected) you would find out such levels of luck is totally ridiculous. A perfectly working telescope can be built from a gas explosion if such levels of luck existed

Lucario007:

I'm not exactly an atheist because I feel it would be presumptuous of me to suppose with my limited knowledge that there is no greater force in the universe beyond my understanding.

I agree with this. I presume nothing. And yet i am an atheist. An agnostic atheist. Do you positively accept or believe in the existence of God? I.e. if your answer to the question "do you believe God exists" is anything other than yes then you are an atheist under a different name. You can call yourself agnostic, freethinker etc. The term atheist often carries a lot of unecessary baggage but really an atheist need not necessarily reject the possibility of a creator. Thats for a subset of atheists called strong atheists.

Lucario007:

And to the Atheists:

1.Do you simply dismiss the possibility of the Religious Gods and miracles, or do you feel that there is absolutely no possibility of the existence of any form of supernatural force in the vastness of the universe?

As I mentioned before I dont dismiss the possibility of anything. A supernatural force or a personal god may well exist. But any extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence. In the absence of such evidence to me everything man says about such a creator is merely a myth.

Lucario007:

A.If you do feel so, what makes you so certain, that as a mere human with limited intelligence and lifespan, you can claim that there is no supernatural force in existence when you will live for less than a fraction of the time the earth has been in existence?

See above.

Lucario007:

2.Why do most of you treat theists as though they are mentally incompetent, and simply cannot understand to let them believe what they wish to believe?

I dont think they are mentally incomptent. In fact they are some of the smartest minds around. Like most of us were, they have simply been brainwashed from an early age to live in an altenate reality. A bubble of delusion where for instance they are morally justified to own other humans as slaves because their book condones it. Its necessary to rebuke these ridiculous beliefs at every turn in order to reduce the number of victims in the next generation who blindly follow their holy book of choice rather than think critically. Just letting this delusion to fester and pollute generation after generation is not the best solution. Now not everyone needs to be a militant atheist but theists shouldnt expect to be left to continue to impact all members of society without any opposition.

Lucario007:

3.And lastly, most atheists claim that the theory of intelligent design is wrong, if so, then why can we not explain the discovery of overwhelmingly beautiful works of art naturally occurring such as the uniqueness of a Snowflake's shape and the arts of a butterfly's wings? Do you truly believe such beautiful works can occur naturally or by accident?

We have seen so many things naturally beautiful and complex for example a rainbow. But it has a well known scientific origin which conforms to the laws of nature as we currently understand it. You can look at nature with awe but theres no need to be so overwhelmed by its complexity and beauty that we jump to conclusions about supernatural reasons for their existence.