AnonyNymous:
If you've seen me on NL recently, you'll know that I'm not religious. My 'religion' is kindness. Humanism. I believe that we can learn to be kind to our fellow human beings and love one another without the concept of any god.

ANYWAY enough of me. As for the question, I heard two religious friends of mine arguing (different faiths) and the non christian posed this question: "In your bible, its clearly stated that god sent his son to die for our sins, that that was his mission on earth, (John 3:16) and Christianity as a whole recognizes that the blood of Jesus 'washes away' sin. If that is so, why are the people who facilitated the prophecy, such as Judas, the Roman Government, the Pharisees, etc not celebrated as heroes of Christianity? After all, if Jesus' mission was to come to earth and die, then surely the people who helped make that mission a as access should be celebrated!"


After this statement, my Christian friend could not speak. I'd like to know what you Christians have to say about this.

cc: Seun

MrPresident1:


Did your friend show your other friend this verse?

Matthew 18:7
Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

kestolove95:
Jesus died for his sins not ours.cox if he had..we won't b facin challenges In our life tym

AnonyNymous:

I want to make sure I understand you well. Can you please explain in relation to the question?

MrPresident1:


Christianity as a whole recognizes that the blood of Jesus 'washes away' sin. If that is so, why are the people who facilitated the prophecy, such as Judas, the Roman Government, the Pharisees, etc not celebrated as heroes of Christianity? After all, if Jesus' mission was to come to earth and die, then surely the people who helped make that mission a as access should be celebrated!"

the forgoing is your 'thought provoking' conundrum, innit? Now look again at the verse


Matthew 18:7
Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

AnonyNymous:


If it 'needs be' that offences come, then men cannot be blamed for their offences. Because its predestined.

AnonyNymous:


If it 'needs be' that offences come, then men cannot be blamed for their offences. Because its predestined.

Scholar8200:
It is NOT predestined but it is a prediction predicated on the state of depravity man fell into after the fall.

MrPresident1:



for it must needs be that offences come; woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

AnonyNymous:
If you've seen me on NL recently, you'll know that I'm not religious. My 'religion' is kindness. Humanism. I believe that we can learn to be kind to our fellow human beings and love one another without the concept of any god.

ANYWAY enough of me. As for the question, I heard two religious friends of mine arguing (different faiths) and the non christian posed this question: "In your bible, its clearly stated that god sent his son to die for our sins, that that was his mission on earth, (John 3:16) and Christianity as a whole recognizes that the blood of Jesus 'washes away' sin. If that is so, why are the people who facilitated the prophecy, such as Judas, the Roman Government, the Pharisees, etc not celebrated as heroes of Christianity? After all, if Jesus' mission was to come to earth and die, then surely the people who helped make that mission a as access should be celebrated!"


After this statement, my Christian friend could not speak. I'd like to know what you Christians have to say about this.

cc: Seun

NegusNegaste:
Nice food for thought bro. Christians, and indeed all religious people in their blind following of their various 'Gods' forget to observe that they shoot themselves in the leg.

AnonyNymous:

In other words, God did not consider the fact that man could repent? After all, we are supposed to have free will. If there is true free will, then anything is possible.

Look at this analogy:
A government decides that they want to give scholarship to a 100 students only, if they pass.
And instead of basing the cutoff mark from the results, they state before hand that the passmark is 50%
Yet, there are more than 100 brilliant students.
In a case like that, the only way to fulfill the conditions (the prophecy) is to make some students (who actually passed) fail! i.e make people who actually repented, sin, for the purpose of fulfilling the prophecy.

The only way that will not happen is if we don't have free will, and in that case, they can't be blamed for their actions

AnonyNymous:

You're just quoting the same sentence. If it 'needs' be, it is predestined, and therefore not their fault. in that case, you're basically saying 'Woe unto them (by God) for doing things which they were predestined to do (by the same God)'

Scholar8200:
Judas had as much opportunity as Peter a chance to repent. Concerning the former, did not Jesus openly say that he would do it?

That example is not applicable. That will be injustice at its worst and this is where the Calvinists are wrong!!!

What I believe is that we have a freewill but there is a choice/option not open to us viz neutrality!

To reject an option would bring us into the category of those that fulfill the other options.

truthmans2012:


Do you know that before Judas carried his evil assignment, Jesus on two or three occasions had warned him. Why? Because if there was anyone who would do the assignment, it should not be Judas as he was one of his own. If you are warned against something and you still do it, you deserve punishment, right?

For others who facilitated the killing, they were guilty: Firstly because Pilate (Governor) himself said he didn't find any offence Jesus committed, then, why punish the innocent? Secondly, their motive for killing him was wrong. If their intention was to kill him deliberately for washing away their sins with Jesus himself consenting to it, it would have a different ball game. But they kill him out of hatred and they did for prophets before him.

I know your next question will be "how would he have died"?. He could have surrendered himself to be killed in due time. It is predestination because God sees the end of things from the beginning. He knew that was how it would happen as it was prophesied by Isaiah (Isaiah 53:7).The important message is, he came to die for the sins of those who believe in his death.

AnonyNymous:

You believe in free will.
To state beforehand that a particular outcome has to happen means there isn't complete free will.

If there is complete free will, the possibility that none of them wish to betray/kill Jesus exists.
In that case, what happens to the prophecy that Jesus was sent to die for us?
He won't die anymore, because nobody is willing to kill him.
His blood would not be shed.
And there would be no blood to 'wash away' our sins.
Keep in mind that if we have free will, this will be a possible outcome.

truthmans2012:


Do you know that before Judas carried his evil assignment, Jesus on two or three occasions had warned him. Why? Because if there was anyone who would do the assignment, it should not be Judas as he was one of his own. If you are warned against something and you still do it, you deserve punishment, right?

For others who facilitated the killing, they were guilty: Firstly because Pilate (Governor) himself said he didn't find any offence Jesus committed, then, why punish the innocent? Secondly, their motive for killing him was wrong. If their intention was to kill him deliberately for washing away their sins with Jesus himself consenting to it, it would have a different ball game. But they kill him out of hatred and they did for prophets before him.

I know your next question will be "how would he have died"?. He could have surrendered himself to be killed in due time. It is predestination because God sees the end of things from the beginning. He knew that was how it would happen as it was prophesied by Isaiah (Isaiah 53:7).The important message is, he came to die for the sins of those who believe in his death.

Scholar8200:
There is but if you say there isnt, then it will be because God knew that after the fall, man became a slave to sin!!! A slave has no choice!

But man was a slave to sin, there was depravity in his heart. Hence his possible reaction to Jesus was predictable.

In Acts 7, Stephen showed how it had become a pattern for Israel to reject those sent to save them!A manifestation of their depravity to love their deceivers and hate their teachers.

Besides, there is NO prophecy that it had to be one of the 12 that will betray Jesus. It could have been one of the many repentant publicans and sinners that He ate with.

AnonyNymous:


1. If a slave has no choice, you're just confirming the absence of free will.

2. I never mentioned anything about the 12. Whoever it was, whether a Roman soldier, or a cattle rearer, is supposed to have free will to choose NOT to kill or betray Jesus.

AnonyNymous

It should not be Judas, since he was one of his(Jesus') own, right? But SOMEBODY had to do it to fulfill the prophecy. As you said, Jesus warned him. And he still did it. Since you believe we have free will, what if he did not do it? That's a possibility too, right?

Surrendered himself? To who? He broke no laws of the land: Christians commonly quote 'Give unto Caesar what is for Caesar'. Therefore he broke no laws! For doing nothing wrong, who, in his right senses, will kill him? Anyone who does that must be mad, and therefore not responsible for their actions....

AnonyNymous:

You're just quoting the same sentence. If it 'needs' be, it is predestined, and therefore not their fault. in that case, you're basically saying 'Woe unto them (by God) for doing things which they were predestined to do (by the same God)'

Scholar8200:
Remember he became a slave by choice not by Divine design! And like Esau, he can choose to be free! No Divine force on either side.


But the depraved nature was there to ensure that he might choose to do just that!

MrPresident1:


You are just wilfully blind. Offence will surely come but woe to him by whom it comes, it is left to you to make yourself a willing tool in the hands of the devil or not. You and your likers should open your heads to reason, men are predestined to greatness or poverty but men have been known to fight to overcome evil sentences and achieve greatness, if you say yes, your Chi will never say no.

Offence will surely come, it is left for you to choose to be the one through whom offence comes or not. If you allow offence to come through you, then it is your destiny to be damned, if you choose not to allow offence to come through you, then it is your destiny to be saved. Bottom line is, the ball is in your court, and the choice is yours.

truthmans2012:


Your free will should not make you independent of God. If your free will is against the will of God, you will suffer the consequence. If Judas didn't do it, God knew how to bring it about.



Since Jesus wanted to die for the sin of the world, he could surrender himself to anybody who could do it. He could convince his disciples to do it with the consent of the government authority. Like I said before God knows how to execute His plans, humans' ntelligence is too low to understand God entirely. People base their judgement on the limit of their wisdom, which is so little when compared to God's. Or are you claiming you know better than God?

AnonyNymous:

I am 'opening my head to reason' and you are not understanding me. If you say 'men are predestined to greatness or evil, but have been known to fight evil sentences and achieve greatness' then what you are saying is that destiny is based on your current circumstances, e.g a boy born into a family of gangs has the free will to change a bad destiny and become a president. ok. I agree with that.
That statement 'Offence will surely come' negates free will. I have the choice to be good and so do the other 7 billion people on the planet. In the event that that happens, even if its a 1 in a million chance, the chance exists. Saying 'offence will surely come' is eliminating that chance, and therefore eliminating free will of the person that will commit the offence.

MrPresident1:


You can choose to be the one or not to be the one, the choice is all yours because unfortunately what is written cannot be changed, that is what is destined to happen, it must happen. Good MUST come, offence MUST come, here comes your choice here comes your destiny, here you stand at the crossroads of life, the choice is entirely yours.

That fact remains that once you elect to be the bringer of offence, that is the destiny that is chosen for you, ratified by your own free will.

AnonyNymous:


Ok. I got you. Its impossible for everybody to choose good. Because offence MUST come i.e everybody does not have free will.

MrPresident1:


Good must come, offence must come, either must be ratified by your frre will, you are free to choose, it is called free will.

AnonyNymous:

The two options must both happen, yet you are free to choose. Where is the choice?
Are you listening to yourself?

MrPresident1:


Yin and yang, positive and negative, left and right, the balance of life. Choice is the exercise of freewill, you have alternatives, good or offence, your choice automatically becomes your destiny.