Henry240:


Is the A-Darter ready for the Gripen yet? ...... NO. It's all based on the current negotiations Denel has had with PAC and SAAB.
The meteor is a European missile, the PL-10 is a Chinese missile and the JF-17 is a Chinese plane.

The JF-17 carries the SD-10 and can fire the PL-15.


Again, it is clear who is getting value for money.

Ready.

Inaccurate! In diplomatic language.

Show us the PL-10!

In terms of weapon system again the Gripen still carries better.

Air to air and air to ground.

Patchesagain:


Exactly.

They dont have lots of money, hence pressure to buy cheaper aircarft.

They chose half a squadron of Gripen over a full squadron of something else. That tells you all you need to know.

Also, Gripen can match the Su30MKI without AWACS in a BVR fight
https://www.africandefence.net/angolas-su-30ks-are-not-a-serious-threat-to-the-south-african-air-force/

Did you type this by mistake?

also a su30mki with all modifications costs anywhere between 80-100 million dollars

Henry240:



You are right. I do get what i pay for. So let's compare what i pay for against what you pay for.

What source is this from?

This is riddled with errors

Henry240:
What I pay for against what you pay for.


This is what i pay for, for $25 million. JF-17.


That's what you pay for, for $65 million. Gripen C/D.


Even a blind man doesn't need to be told who has gained more value for his money.

Source

Any one can make erroneous info graphics

Henry240:
Patchesagain congrats to Mbeki for paying 65 million for a JF-17.

I have already shown it to be inferior

But please, tell me the source of your "information"

Lol JF-17 with the same engine is studdenly massively more capable because of the magic powers of writing "Block 2" next to it

Inferiority complexes are unseemly,

nemesis2u:






i have nothing against the gripen, i find it to be a very capable aircraft well suited for the purpose for which it was designed.

but to claim a gripen can run down a su30mki with or without AWACS is lolzzzz.

firstly Gripen is a light category fighter , SU30MKI is a heavy category aircraft.

maybe a flight of gripens running well though out tactics might corner a single su 3030mki , but against a similar no of su30mki , it will be out matched completely.

do u know a su30mki is by itself a mini AWACS . its 2 man crew provides better operational performance and situational awareness in high paced aerial engagements etc etc.

lets give u a small example......

Su-30MKI is an air superiority fighter and was designed from the outset to cruise at far higher altitudes than other combat aircraft. a Su-30MKI will always be cruising at least 10,000 feet/15,000 feet above its so called opponents like the F-16 , Gripens etc and that's because the Su-30MKI's RLSU-30MK/NO-11M 'Bars' PESA-MMR and OEPS-30 IRST sensor both function at their very best when operating in the look-down mode. In addition, a R-77 BVRAAM or R-73E WVRAAM when fired from a higher altitude against targets below will possess higher kinematic performance as well as greater engagement ranges.
for a moment lets assume that gripen has superior ranged BVRAAMS.
then also it should not be a problem because it is a fact that no AAM flies straight either in azimuth or elevation & therefore max range is never critical. all BVRAAMs use proportional navigation within a 3-dimensional spherical bowl that enables them to compute the most probable & optimum interception point. The dimensions of the 3-D bowl are entirely dependent on the mechanically scanning MMR antennae’s max gimbaled movements in azimuth and elevation and these in turn are the final determinants of an AAM’s performance parameters as far as effective range goes. Any aircraft cruising at higher altitudes will have a greater field-of-regard & expanded horizon & will consequently its on-board MMR’s antenna will require far less degree of movement in azimuth & elevation when compared the MMR performance of an aircraft cruising at a lower altitude. Thus, even if an adversary’s BVRAAM can fly a longer distance than an R-77, it will still require mid-course guidance cues from the MMR provided the MMR can keep a Su-30MKI within its field-of-view.

i am assuming the gripen is using PS05/A MARK 3 which is capable of detecting a fighter aircraft from 120 km distance and can see road traffic and count ships at anchor in a harbour at 70 km and Su-30MKI's RLSU-30MK/NO-11M 'Bars' PESA-MMR has a search range of 400 km and a tracking range of 200 km.

and what about the OEPS-30 IRST sensor of Su-30MKI which gives it an indomitable edge for passive engagement ?

and i gave one example , there are many others , but i am weary of the anti spam bot it might ban be again

at end of the day what matters is the pilot behind the seat and how smart he is and most importantly when a real fight does occur between a gripen or a su30mki only then we will be 100% sure.
rest of the time comparative analysis is better taken with a pinch of salt be it for gripen or su30 or f22 or any aircraft.

lets do it for fun or because we r defense nerds or lack a active social life or lack a girlfriend .
no need to loose sleep over it.
cheers

oh..u are also horrified

Henry240:


Is the A-Darter ready for the Gripen yet? ...... NO. It's all based on the current negotiations Denel has had with PAC and SAAB.
The meteor is a European missile, the PL-10 is a Chinese missile and the JF-17 is a Chinese plane.

The JF-17 carries the SD-10 and can fire the PL-15.


Again, it is clear who is getting value for money.

Yes

A-Darter is ready to go.

You get what you pay for.

nemesis2u:


That's block I not latest version

ur wrong , it is same for all versions, because the PAF has no problems with it and they are satisfied with it .
but they said they/chinese are ready to implement full FBW in JF17 if any user requests it. but the customer will have to pay for the same.

and i said nothing about Chinese FBW coding with C++ language. read again.

yes for a full FBW version of course costomer will pay more.

what pakistan has aquired are mostly block I,plus very little block II.The latest dual seats version is said to have full FBW to be deliver to Nigeria in this year end.

nemesis2u:






i have nothing against the gripen, i find it to be a very capable aircraft well suited for the purpose for which it was designed.

but to claim a gripen can run down a su30mki with or without AWACS is lolzzzz.

firstly Gripen is a light category fighter , SU30MKI is a heavy category aircraft.

maybe a flight of gripens running well though out tactics might corner a single su 3030mki , but against a similar no of su30mki , it will be out matched completely.

do u know a su30mki is by itself a mini AWACS . its 2 man crew provides better operational performance and situational awareness in high paced aerial engagements etc etc.

lets give u a small example......

Su-30MKI is an air superiority fighter and was designed from the outset to cruise at far higher altitudes than other combat aircraft. a Su-30MKI will always be cruising at least 10,000 feet/15,000 feet above its so called opponents like the F-16 , Gripens etc and that's because the Su-30MKI's RLSU-30MK/NO-11M 'Bars' PESA-MMR and OEPS-30 IRST sensor both function at their very best when operating in the look-down mode. In addition, a R-77 BVRAAM or R-73E WVRAAM when fired from a higher altitude against targets below will possess higher kinematic performance as well as greater engagement ranges.
for a moment lets assume that gripen has superior ranged BVRAAMS.
then also it should not be a problem because it is a fact that no AAM flies straight either in azimuth or elevation & therefore max range is never critical. all BVRAAMs use proportional navigation within a 3-dimensional spherical bowl that enables them to compute the most probable & optimum interception point. The dimensions of the 3-D bowl are entirely dependent on the mechanically scanning MMR antennae’s max gimbaled movements in azimuth and elevation and these in turn are the final determinants of an AAM’s performance parameters as far as effective range goes. Any aircraft cruising at higher altitudes will have a greater field-of-regard & expanded horizon & will consequently its on-board MMR’s antenna will require far less degree of movement in azimuth & elevation when compared the MMR performance of an aircraft cruising at a lower altitude. Thus, even if an adversary’s BVRAAM can fly a longer distance than an R-77, it will still require mid-course guidance cues from the MMR provided the MMR can keep a Su-30MKI within its field-of-view.

i am assuming the gripen is using PS05/A MARK 3 which is capable of detecting a fighter aircraft from 120 km distance and can see road traffic and count ships at anchor in a harbour at 70 km and Su-30MKI's RLSU-30MK/NO-11M 'Bars' PESA-MMR has a search range of 400 km and a tracking range of 200 km.

and what about the OEPS-30 IRST sensor of Su-30MKI which gives it an indomitable edge for passive engagement ?

and i gave one example , there are many others , but i am weary of the anti spam bot it might ban be again

at end of the day what matters is the pilot behind the seat and how smart he is and most importantly when a real fight does occur between a gripen or a su30mki only then we will be 100% sure.
rest of the time comparative analysis is better taken with a pinch of salt be it for gripen or su30 or f22 or any aircraft.

lets do it for fun or because we r defense nerds or lack a active social life or lack a girlfriend .
no need to loose sleep over it.
cheers

Read the write up

Thailand selected the Gripen specifically because it can handle the Su30MKi in BVR combat

They lay it out very simply for you

Patchesagain:


Read the write up

Thailand selected the Gripen specifically because it can handle the Su30MKi in BVR combat

They lay it out very simply for you

and exactly how did they find out gripen can handle the Su30MKi in BVR combat ?

gripen was evaluated along with rafale f16i typhoon mig35, with all of them being extensively flight tested by indian pilots in hot and cold conditions, at sea level and high altitudes , weapon test firing at all flight envelope etc etc.
typhoon and rafale came out tops on the basis of technical evaluations and later rafale was selected of of the two due to lower costs.

did Thailand testflight SU30MKI against gripen ?
the answer is a big no

i hope u realize articles / reports etc r not worth much in terms of credibility .

anyways good luck shooting down SU30MKI
u will need it, lots of it

and excuse me from any further discussion on this subject
thank u.

Henry, your pretty pictures come from a fvcking blog!!! A Pakistani blog no less!
http://defence.pk/threads/jas-39-gripen-c-vs-jf-17-thunder-block-2.419969/

You should have known I would have reverse image searched!

What's next? You going to quote the other thread as a source?

Come now, this is fair and honest debate in good spirit, vigorous? Yes! Heated? Yes! These are the qualities of any good debate!

But lets keep it to a high standard. Good research, reliable sources. We may actually learn something from each other. Steel sharpens steel.

Now:

Gripen has a more powerfull engine, is faster, is more maneuverable, has a bigger payload, more hard-points, has more advanced electronics (HMD, fly-by-wire, complete sensor fusion, EWS 39 amongst the most capable EW suite in existance) is combat tested and has over 20 years of operational history. Most importantly many customers have chosen it over the SU30 and chosen it to fight the Su30. Not to mention a full generation ahead of the JF-17 (according to its chinese designer)

You get what you pay for

Patchesagain:


I have already shown it to be inferior

But please, tell me the source of your "information"

Lol JF-17 with the same engine is studdenly massively more capable because of the magic powers of writing "Block 2" next to it

Inferiority complexes are unseemly,

The information on the block II is open-source. You can as well do you own research to verify data. Atleast we all saw the JF-17 at the Paris Air Show in 2015.

Sources are, SAAB, Aviation week, PAC & Janes.


Congrats on paying 65million on a Swedish JF-17. An aircraft that isn't even the match of an F-16 Block 52.

Patchesagain:


Henry, your pretty pictures come from a fvcking blog!!!
http://defence.pk/threads/jas-39-gripen-c-vs-jf-17-thunder-block-2.419969/
You should have known I would have reverse image searched!
What's next? You going to quote the other thread as a source?
Come now, this is fair and honest debate in good spirit, vigorous? Yes! Heated? Yes! These are the qualities of any good debate!
But lets keep it to a high standard. Good research, reliable sources. We may actually learn something from each other. Steel sharpens steel.
Now:
Gripen has a more powerfull engine, is faster, is more maneuverable, has a bigger payload, more hard-points, has more advanced electronics (HMD, fly-by-wire, complete sensor fusion, EWS 39 amongst the most capable EW suite in existance) is combat tested and has over 20 years of operational history. Most importantly many customers have chosen it over the SU30 and chosen it to fight the Su30. Not to mention a full generation ahead of the JF-17 (according to its chinese designer)
You get what you pay for

Let solve this amicably.

You want to prove the gripen is better at some aspect, Pick up a specific aspect and let debate on it. Not just all this it has a better this and that you're all saying without enough facts.

You want to tackle radar, discuss about the radar system, compare with facts before moving to another.

Patchesagain:

Henry, your pretty pictures come from a fvcking blog!!! A Pakistani blog no less!
http://defence.pk/threads/jas-39-gripen-c-vs-jf-17-thunder-block-2.419969/

You get what you pay for

The source has been provided. So, go do your own research.

Patchesagain:

Not to mention a full generation ahead of the JF-17 (according to its chinese designer)

[b]You get what you pay for

not a full gen ahead, half gen at most. JF17 latest block is 4 gen.

chinese8107:

not a full gen ahead, half gen at most. JF17 latest block is 4 gen.

You seem to be quite lily livered for this forum.

Henry240:


You seem to be quite lily livered for this forum.

now now why ru venting on him

i almost died laughing.

Henry240:


You seem to be quite lily livered for this forum.

yes.don't want much not necessary argue.sometimes no need to reply

chinese8107:


not a full gen ahead, half gen at most. JF17 latest block is 4 gen.

Classification of Fighter aircrafts in China differs from how the West or Russia classifies Fighter jets. The fact China missed the first Generation of fighters, it only has 4 generations of fighter jets.


The First Generation

Second generation

3rd Generation

4th Generation.

The J-10 and JF-17 are both classified as 3 Generation fighters, while J-20 and J-31 are 4th Generation.

nemesis2u:



now now why ru venting on him

i almost died laughing.

He doesn't seem to know a lot about weapons systems. Always apologising when you(Indian) and South-Africans get on his case.


Like a douchebag, no offence to him.

tdayof:


Let solve this amicably.

You want to prove the gripen is better at some aspect, Pick up a specific aspect and let debate on it. Not just all this it has a better this and that you're all saying without enough facts.

You want to tackle radar, discuss about the radar system, compare with facts before moving to another.

hooray for u sir

now this is what i call a sensible advice which sadly everybody will ignore

Henry240:


Classification of Fighter aircrafts in China differs from how the West or Russia classifies Fighter jets. The fact China missed the first Generation of fighters, it only has 4 generations of fighter jets.


The First Generation

Second generation

3rd Generation

4th Generation.

The J-10 and JF-17 are both classified as 3 Generation fighters, while J-20 and J-31 are 4th Generation.

Yes.China officially say J10 su30 jf17 are 3gen (4 gen Western standard)

chinese8107:


Yes.China officially say J10 su30 jf17 are 3gen (4 gen Western standard)

cn.hujiang.com/new/p404461/

Henry240:




He doesn't seem to know a lot about weapons systems. Always apologising when you(Indian) and South-Africans get on his case.


Like a douchebag, no offence to him.

let me get this straight and plz no offence to anybody including "me"

NOBODY HERE AND IN MAJORITY OF THE BLOGS / FORUMS KNOWS ANYTHING SUBSTANTIAL ABOUT WEAPON SYSTEMS.
ITS ONLY BITS AND PIECES PICKED UP FROM OPEN SOURCE WHICH THEMSELVES ARE NOT VERIFIABLE.

MAJORITY OF PEOPLE CONNECTED WITH THE DEVELOPMENT AND OPERATION OF WEAPON SYSTEMS DON'T HAVE THE TIME AND THE AUTHORIZATION TO POST AND ARE SANE ENOUGH TO NOT ENGAGE IN NEVER ENDING MEANINGLESS DICK MEASURING CONTEST ON THE INTERNET REGARDING THE SAME.

internet is a fools paradise if u know what i mean ie propaganda , sales gimmick, fanboy posts etc r the rule of the day.
and nobody including me is immune to this.

how many weapon systems became more potent and dangerous after being declared and vetted decisively in forums / blogs or by being declared and vetted decisively by news articles / reports etc ?
somebody help me here. plz

so as i always say and which everybody ignores "don't loose sleep over it"

and by the way i and chinese8107 like each other very much
we are like yin and yang
and i going to kill him someday
if he does not kill me first
he is a simple person most of the time and speaks his mind and the truth
and he brings diversity
oops henry240 i stole ur line

Henry240:



....But SAAF Gripens are not cheap to maintain. Where is your evidence to support the Gripen's EW suite is better than that on the J-10?

They are cheap to maintain and have excellent turn around time.

The J10 does not have a integrated EW suit and is depended on a external pod that by the way costs extra.

nemesis2u:


let me get this straight and plz no offence to anybody including "me"

NOBODY HERE AND IN MAJORITY OF THE BLOGS / FORUMS KNOWS ANYTHING SUBSTANTIAL ABOUT WEAPON SYSTEMS.
ITS ONLY BITS AND PIECES PICKED UP FROM OPEN SOURCE WHICH THEMSELVES ARE NOT VERIFIABLE.

MAJORITY OF PEOPLE CONNECTED WITH THE DEVELOPMENT AND OPERATION OF WEAPON SYSTEMS DON'T HAVE THE TIME AND THE AUTHORIZATION TO POST AND ARE SANE ENOUGH TO NOT ENGAGE IN NEVER ENDING MEANINGLESS DICK MEASURING CONTEST ON THE INTERNET REGARDING THE SAME.

internet is a fools paradise if u know what i mean ie propaganda , sales gimmick, fanboy posts etc r the rule of the day.
and nobody including me is immune to this.

how many weapon systems became more potent and dangerous after being declared and vetted decisively in forums / blogs or by being declared and vetted decisively by news articles / reports etc ?
somebody help me here. plz

so as i always say and which everybody ignores "don't loose sleep over it"

and by the way i and chinese8107 like each other very much
we are like yin and yang
and i going to kill him someday
if he does not kill me first
he is a simple person most of the time and speaks his mind and the truth
and he brings diversity
oops henry240 i stole ur line

The Yin and Yang got me. You once lived in china?


You all can take a chill and watch this;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO3iXNtLkug

chinese8107:


The latest dual seats version is said to have full FBW to be deliver to Nigeria in this year end.

source ?
but my info is different that the jf17b is still being pushed through final last stage testing in china and it does not have full FBW. plz provide the source where u read it.

Henry240:




Always apologising when you(Indian)

i really cant understand some of you fellows.
are you guys related to the Columbus the explorer , maybe inspired

he was so after Indians that he ended up with RED Indians
i don't know what u will end up with, BLUE Indians maybe

what does nationality have to do in the world wide web where anonymity is the rule ?

nemesis2u:


source ?
but my info is different that the jf17b is still being pushed through final last stage testing in china and it does not have full FBW. plz provide the source where u read it.

are you collecting intelligence?I am not eager to help.
no English media only China media ,no traslation,but you can make judgement,even L-15 is full FBW with redundency

chinese8107:

are you collecting intelligence?I am not eager to help.

oh god i am gonna die laughing, no need to kill me.