You

I hate to hear people argue about THE HOLY TRINITY. The baptism of Jesus explains it all. Thank Xynerio though u say crazy thing but I like u for that reply. When Jesus said I and my father ARE one. The ARE signifies two people in one body. John 1:1-3 says ' In begining was the word(jesus)and the word(Jesus)was with God and the word(Jesus) was God. The same was in the begining with God. All thing were made by him(Jesus)and without him not anything made that was made''.The heaven and the earth would not have been made without him. So he is God the son. May God forgive he who does not believe in the Holy TRINITY. Peace be unto you all.

@ Mr Blazer

I hate to hear people argue about THE HOLY TRINITY. The baptism of Jesus explains it all. Thank Xynerio though u say crazy thing but I like u for that reply. When Jesus said I and my father ARE one. The ARE signifies two people in one body. John 1:1-3 says ' In begining was the word(jesus)and the word(Jesus)was with God and the word(Jesus) was God. The same was in the begining with God. All thing were made by him(Jesus)and without him not anything made that was made''.The heaven and the earth would not have been made without him. So he is God the son. May God forgive he who does not believe in the Holy TRINITY. Peace be unto you all.

Thanks Mr Blazer

I read your posts, and unfortunately I know that you are an intellifgent man, but you suddenly jump to conclusion, without a methodical step by step process that is understandable, in human language and thoughts to get us from point A to point Z of the Trinity course, because you know that it does not make any sense!

How do you say you are a God when you are obviously a human, and say with your own mouth that you have limited knowledge, calling another God to help you, asking Him to aid you, saying you cant do anyhing of your own except He does it by allowing you to have the power of doing it, etc? If Trinity is the concept by which this fake God is calibrated to be God, then Trinity is destroyed by the simple fact that the human god is proven to be human alone and not in any shape a God! I read you Boobyaf, but your material is not qualified as a thing that proofs the existence of Trinity. Nothing does, and the more you struggle with it, the easier to see the follies of that effort!

You may have read my posts, but its either you do not understand, or you refuse to see the point I have made. Let me repeat:

1. Was Christ God before He became a man? The answer is yes because God the Father called His Son God. (see Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."

2. Angels could not have been allowed to worship Jesus if He were not God.  Note in particular that this command was applicable while Jesus became human[b]Hebrews 1:6[/b] says "And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him."

3. When Thomas the doubter finally believed he fell at the feet of Jesus and proclaimed "My Lord and my God" If Jesus suspected that Thomas went astray, or went too far in his approach, did Jesus reminded him that He Jesus should not have been worshiped since He was a man?

I could go on.

@Kolaxy: I love your attempt, but how do you prove that
1. they are equal
2. They are all complete Gods
3. They are still one God

The Trinity is hard to understand because we don't understand how three Gods who are equal is still one God. It is wrong to say that the earth was created by the power of the "WORD". It was created by the power of God. There is also the problem of gender. Since God created us in His image, does it mean that Both the Father is a Man, and the Son is His Son who is also a man, and the Holy Spirit is a Woman?

@skydancer. What are you saying?

@skydancer. What are you saying?

I'd really like to know myself what he's trying to explain.

He said trinity never exist in the bible therefore is just an illussion

@Abuzola. You are a muslim and no nothing about THE HOLY TRINITY. Even if it is written boldly in the bible u will still argue. So shut up. I just pity my christian brothers who do not believe in the HOLY TRINITY.

@ skydancer

@Kolaxy: I love your attempt, but how do you prove that
1. they are equal
2. They are all complete Gods
3. They are still one God

The Trinity is hard to understand because we don't understand how three Gods who are equal is still one God. It is wrong to say that the earth was created by the power of the "WORD". It was created by the power of God. There is also the problem of gender. Since God created us in His image, does it mean that Both the Father is a Man, and the Son is His Son who is also a man, and the Holy Spirit is a Woman?

Jesus said in ( Luke 10:22)

"All things have been handed over to me by my Father; and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."  

@ skydancer ,ask Jesus to reveal himself to you just as I did,

Deuteronomy 29:29

The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

There are some things about God we cannot understand on this side of heaven. As this verse states there are secrets that God shares with no one. The mystery of the Trinity is one of them. The Bible teaches us plainly that there is only one God of one essence from eternity past who is manifested in 3 individual persons who have independent intellect, emotion and will. This means that while these three persons who make up the ONE God are infinite God with all of the attributes of deity, yet their individual experiences and choices are unique. This does not mean that these are three individual God's, this means that the ONE God of one essence is manifested in three individual persons. God is Father and Son and Holy Spirit. Take any one of these away and you no longer have the ONE and only True God.

What am saying is that the held concept is that God consists of three persons who are also three complete equal Gods and yet one God.

@kolaxy: You still haven't corrected what you said. Why would you say that something was done by the power of the WORD instead of God. They are inseparable and work together as you said.

If you want, post your email, I have something that might interest you.

If trinity is in the bible i will convert to xtrianity. How can you let some set of people to be lying to you on trinity, did jesus not die ? And what about the two godhead

Stop sputtering your ridiculous crap here. All the bible quotes on prove of trinity is not enough for your dimnished mind

Abuzola:

If trinity is in the bible i will convert to xtrianity. How can you let some set of people to be lying to you on trinity, did jesus not die ? And what about the two godhead

John 10:30, My Father and I(the word that became flesh) are one, The Flesh was led by the Spirit, making Him the Son of God(Romans 8:14), its like this, God Spoke(word), The word  came out of God and Jesus came to Be, since the word turned to Jesus it means Jesus came out of God, and then if you read Ephesians 6:17 (''and the Sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God),it shows that God's Spirit is inside His word, God's Spirit can be defined as His Personality, for example you can tell who a man is just by listenening to what he says, Matthew 12:34, For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.


It's all God, i believe that the word trinity can be misleading but it should be explained to this people well because the lack they gift of the Holy Spirit which is wisdom.

@sleek, if God and jesus are one what i see is dual and not trinity, what about the ghost you people worship

@sleek, if God and jesus are one what i see is dual and not trinity, what about the ghost you people worship

You sure have a mental problem

@Abuzola,if you insult back now,they will all point at you that youre causing avoc,they are foolish anywayif they think like that.

I posted these earlier, but no Trinitarian had the balls to give me a point by point response to the verses cited here.

These verses show that Jesus HIMSELF never thought that he was God.

Only his apostles and other followers (typical humans inclined to deification of leaders and hro worship) began to call him God.



Did Jesus ever claim to be God? Please review these:

The words of Jesus:

John 8:40: “, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God.”

John 17:3: "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

Mark 13:32:"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

John 5:19: "Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does”

John 14:28: "You heard me say,'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

John 20:17: "Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them,'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”

Mark 10:18: “Do not call me good, only God is good.”

Guys from the foregoing there can be NO DOUBT, that Jesus NEVER, NOT EVEN FOR ONE SECOND, regarded himself as God. Notwithstanding anything the hero-worshipping Apostles will tell you. But even they said a lot to show that they didn’t think so –

1Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.


1 Peter 1:3: “Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Acts 2:22 - “Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.”

Acts 2:36: “God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

Let’s face it: the Trinity was created by the Roman Catholic Church and not Jesus Christ, and now people are ready to die to affirm the truth of it, disregarding Jesus’ own words.

So beware: calling him God – or “part of God” – is definitely blasphemy.

@Bobbyaf: « #67 on: Yesterday at 09:07:40 PM »  

You may have read my posts, but its either you do not understand, or you refuse to see the point I have made. Let me repeat:

Your points are understood alright. You can fool many hearts all the time or all hearts many times, but not all the time you can fool all hearts. With post Jesus Biblical Books as your weapon to educate believers, we see that Jesus was not the speaker, but zealots were! Read my responses below.

1. Was Christ God before He became a man? The answer is yes because God the Father called His Son God. (see Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."

Was I a soul in the spiritual realml before I became a man? Yes. Does that make me a God or Angel or other Spirit, Jinn? No! But how many men are there and am I the only one that pass this threshhold? Men in this case is every man and woman, all from Adam! Are we unique? Yes we are unique, more beloved to God than more powerful Elephants, Ananconda Snakes, Pythons, Lions, Crocodiles, each can crush individual man, if it is toe to toe!

Is God Unique if Jesus was God before he bacame man? No, because there will be at least 2 of His type, and He will not be a 100% Creator again because there will be at least one other which is not created. I factor out the Holy spirit for a moment, so that you can see how weak your argument is.

But Jesus did everything that I did, as a man! In a spiritual sense, Jesus performed miracles, so did Messengers and Prophets each by permission of God to let their audiences know that they are spiritual men, speaking the truth. And in all of these not a single prophet/messenger got everyone to follow him. Jesus did not as well! But Jesus said from his own lips, by himself he can do nothing. And the disciples who witnessed his ministry, not as strangers but as everyday followers and associates, said in acts of the apostles about Jesus "Jesus your SERVANT whom you sent!" Bobbyaf, did you know about these verses and you intentionally ignored them, along with many that proof Jesus to be man, messenger/Prophet, SERVANT and never, and I repeat, never God?

2. Angels could not have been allowed to worship Jesus if He were not God.  Note in particular that this command was applicable while Jesus became humanHebrews 1:6 says "And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him."

Post Jesus on earth statements from a tird party and not Jesus himself is not allowed because its "hearsay" at best! All worship is forbidden except what God permiited, and He allowed a single Prostrations from the angels to Adam, so that the disbeliever Jinn, Iblis who became Shaitan later intermost disbelief and arrogance and disobedience can be revealed because up till that time it was unknown to the angels! The other time a group of people was permitted to prostrate and not be disobeying God  in a disbeliever way, was the prostration to Prophet Joseph by his prophet father Jacob and the rest of the family, as a fulfillment of his dream, a honoring thing among his family as Allah has honored Adam in the community of Angels!

3. When Thomas the doubter finally believed he fell at the feet of Jesus and proclaimed "My Lord and my God" If Jesus suspected that Thomas went astray, or went too far in his approach, did Jesus reminded him that He Jesus should not have been worshiped since He was a man?

I could go on.

And you did not go on. In all of the hooplas, you forgot that Jesus himself said "my God, my God, forsaken me?" If what Jesus said is true, then all the others were liars as they called him what he truly not! If the others were not liars, then Jesus was not telling the truth on the cross. Or maybe both groups lied and the truth lied somewhere else!?

Jesus was God in human form.  If I give you a small slice of cheese from a large block (the taste being constant throughout the whole block of cheese), and you spit out the cheese saying you hate the taste, then you reject the whole block.  Jesus was God manifest in human form.  If the Jews rejected Him, they rejected the Father also.  He who is of God hears God's Words.  The Apostle John later stated in his epistle,

"Whosoever denies the Son, the same has not the Father: (but) he that acknowledges the Son has the Father also" (1 John 2:23)

An the Apostle Paul further explained:

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached to the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." -- 1Timothy 3:16

Deep Sight:

I posted these earlier, but no Trinitarian had the balls to give me a point by point response to the verses cited here.

These verses show that Jesus HIMSELF never thought that he was God.

Only his apostles and other followers (typical humans inclined to deification of leaders and hro worship) began to call him God.



Did Jesus ever claim to be God? Please review these:

The words of Jesus:

John 8:40: “, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God.”

John 17:3: "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

Mark 13:32:"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

John 5:19: "Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does”

John 14:28: "You heard me say,'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

John 20:17: "Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them,'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”

Mark 10:18: “Do not call me good, only God is good.”

Guys from the foregoing there can be NO DOUBT, that Jesus NEVER, NOT EVEN FOR ONE SECOND, regarded himself as God. Notwithstanding anything the hero-worshipping Apostles will tell you. But even they said a lot to show that they didn’t think so –

1Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.


1 Peter 1:3: “Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Acts 2:22 - “Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.”

Acts 2:36: “God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

Let’s face it: the Trinity was created by the Roman Catholic Church and not Jesus Christ, and now people are ready to die to affirm the truth of it, disregarding Jesus’ own words.

So beware: calling him God – or “part of God” – is definitely blasphemy.

Hi Deepsight. It seems to me that you are seeking for clarification on who Jesus is. I will attempt albeit in brief to offer my perception on the issue. My perception is not drawn from the bible, thus I will not quote or interpret the biblical verses. I draw from the Grail Message (which you have said that you have read) as well as my experiencing of the creations of God, those that are physically visible as well as invincible. I guess your questions can be broken into three points: Is Jesus Christ God? Is Jesus Christ one with God the Father? Is Jesus Christ equal to God the Father? Are there three persons in one God or one God in three persons?

There is only one God and he is called God the Father. Both Jesus and the HolySpirit are "parts" of God the Father. That means that God the Father "severed a small part of himself" a personification of his eternal love and that incarnate unsubstantiate love of God the Father is Jesus Christ. In the same vain, God the Father also severed a "small part of himself" a personification of his enternal will and that unsustantiate will of God became personal in the Holy Spirit. Thus it is a small part of God the Father that is Jesus and another small part of God the Father that is the Holy Spirit. Both Jesus and the Holy Spirit are parts of God the Father that became personal in their working. That is why it is correct to say that Jesus Christ is the son of God. Thus Trinity does not in my perception refer to three personalities in the Godhead rather it is God the Father that is God the Father, it is God the Father that is Jesus, it is also God the Father that is the HolySpirit. The small parts that God the Father severed from himself are naturally not "equal" to God the Father but are one with God the Father. A crude analogy may help you to form a crude picture. You can liken the primordial source of all life, that is God the Father as a man while the right arm of the man can be likened to Jesus Christ and the left arm of the man can be likened to the HolySpirt. What this analogy fell short is that even when the man severed his  right and the left arm to work independent of himself, the man still have left and right arm,  a paradox? , this is a process of radiation which will remain a mystery inspite of all attempts to explain it. God the Father severed a part of himslef out of Love for his unformed radiations that are longing to experience counsciousness. In the proximity of God, the divine sphere, these radiations of God cannot come to counsciousness. To grant counsciousness to these uncounscious radiations, God brought primordial spiritual creation into existence by an act of his his will. That act of will is embodied in "Let there be Light" and this will of God the Father that brought the primordial spiritual creation into existence is the Holy Spirit. The coming into existence of primordial creation also made it possible for the coming into existence of spiritual creation and subsequent creation as well. Even in the spiritual creation, the human spirit seeds were still uncounscious radiation of God, and yet they too have the longing to develop counsciousness. Subsequent creation of which the material universes (physically visible as well as invinsible) are the last outpust was the field of activity where the uncounscious human spirit germs can devlop to human spirits. Unfortuntunately, man lost his way and became a problem for himself and other creatures. Man became a disturbing element. God sent prophets in different cultures to help man change course but the power of the prophets were not enough as they are  simply creatures. The darkness snuffed the power of these prophets and humanity was on the road to eternal death. To prevent humanity from spiritual death, God intervened by severing a part of himself and incarnated it in fresh and blood in a male sex- Jesus Christ. Thus Jesus is the son of God, the incarnate word of God, this again is a process of radiation which will remain a mystery but a spiritual picture of it can be percieved if one is open to it. I hope that if you examine what I said you will hopefully find the answer why Jesus is the son of God and why Jesus is one with God the Father and yet God the Father is greater than his inborn son Jesus Christ as well his outborn son, the Holy Spirit. Stay blessed.

Abuzola:

@sleek, if God and jesus are one what i see is dual and not trinity, what about the ghost you people worship

Let me ask you a simple question, can you see God?

@Olaadegbu: « #84 on: Yesterday at 04:08:42 PM »

Jesus was God in human form. If I give you a small slice of cheese from a large block (the taste being constant throughout the whole block of cheese), and you spit out the cheese saying you hate the taste, then you reject the whole block. Jesus was God manifest in human form. If the Jews rejected Him, they rejected the Father also. He who is of God hears God's Words. The Apostle John later stated in his epistle,

"Whosoever denies the Son, the same has not the Father: (but) he that acknowledges the Son has the Father also" (1 John 2:23)

An the Apostle Paul further explained:

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached to the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." -- 1Timothy 3:16

so when the human form was killed then Christian God was killed, then? God of the Jews, when they were Children of Israel was not known as a triun, or in trinity! Moses aught to know God more than anyone, including Jesus who was reported to have seen God even in your Bible in any special ocassion that no one was there! And no one saw God.

Now, Moses was reported to have spoken to God many times, way more than Jesus did! Moses knew God to be One Single God! While Jesus first appeared at the first Word soken as God commanded light to come out, heavens and earth were aready commanded to come about! This tells you even from your Bible that God was always indepenedent and was able to do without Jesus, a mere word to the Speaker Who Spoke many many words; and will see that if your concept is true, everytime God spoke, a Jesus would be assumed to be accompanying the speech!? How many Jesus could we have had, if we shall only restrict this phenomial situation to just up to when the dove flew (this is ridiculous if one imagine the distance of heavens to out ability of sight!), from heaven with the "GATE" Opened, and specifically the manty conversations God had with Moses!?

Olaadegbu, it does not make any sense. Your concept that is. I will leave Paul alone so that he can lay shaitan with you, until you open your heart for guidance!

@olabs, Christ has 2 different personalities, Romans 1:3, and Romans 1:4, one is born of the seed of David according to the flesh, the other declared to be the Son of God, the fact that he carried God's Spirit in its wholeness is the reason for that declaration, the flesh was killed but the Spirit cannot and will never die as the Spirit that dwelled in Christ is the very Spirit of the Father, the flesh (the one your eyes can see), was crucfied, the same way you throw the torah or the bible into the fire and it will burn, they are both books that contain God's word, and God's Power and Spirit lives in His word, you can only burn the book but you can't kill His word, Jesus was a living being that housed God's Spirit(the Living word) they destroyed the house but the Spirit rebuilt it.

Jesus is the way . . . no one cometh to the Father, except through Him!

The Trinity Is God

Matthew 28:16-20 is a passage referred to as “The Great Commission.” In verse 19, Jesus states, “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,”

Why did Jesus tell his eleven disciples to baptize people in the names of all three members of the Trinity? Why not one or two? It is obvious from this passage that the entire Trinity is God.

Jesus Is God

We understand that many people agree that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit exist. (I'm sure that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are relieved to hear that! ) These same people may even agree that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are “working together.” However, the followers of several cults are taught that Jesus is “just a prophet,” or “only the son of God”—not God. This wrong viewpoint is easily clarified by looking at Bible verse: Isaiah 9:6,(below).

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Jesus Doing What Only God Can Do

Mark chapter 2 opens up with an interesting story about Jesus healing a paralytic man. Notice that Jesus forgives the man’s sins in verse 5 and the reaction of the teachers of the law (the religious experts of the day) in verses 6 and 7.


Mark chapter 2:1-12

1 And again He entered Capernaum after some days, and it was heard that He was in the house.
2 Immediately many gathered together, so that there was no longer room to receive them, not even near the door. And He preached the word to them.
3 Then they came to Him, bringing a paralytic who was carried by four men.
4 And when they could not come near Him because of the crowd, they uncovered the roof where He was. So when they had broken through, they let down the bed on which the paralytic was lying.
5 When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.”
[b]6 And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts,
7 “Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”[/b]8 But immediately, when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them, “Why do you reason about these things in your hearts?
9 Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise, take up your bed and walk’?
10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—He said to the paralytic,
11 “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.”
12 Immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went out in the presence of them all, so that all were amazed and glorified God, saying, “We never saw anything like this!”


The teachers of the law knew that only God could forgive sin. Since the people could not “see” sin being forgiven, Jesus proved He did indeed forgive the man’s sins by supernaturally healing the man’s paralysis (providing visible proof everyone could see). You can also read about this event in Luke 5:17-26. In both cases it is obvious that Jesus is God.

@Olaadegbu,

"Whosoever denies the Son, the same has not the Father: (but) he that acknowledges the Son has the Father also" (1 John 2:23)

Thanx

Abuzola why are you muslim people so attacking, is everything Jihad to you?

If u no believe in Trinity good for you life goes on BUT no you muslim go wan cut person head cos dem no believe in mohamed, na by force?

M_Nwankwwo -

Thank you always. You always go the extra mile and take the time to carefully try to explain and enlighten. You are one of the few whose participation on this Forum is wholly constructive and up building.

To assist further can you clarify for me:

   1. The place of the authour of the Grail Message within the Trinity if any (is he the Holy Spirit?)

   2. Who is Parsifal? Is Parsifal God? Is he perhaps the highest image of God? Is he part of the Trinity or is the Trinity Embodied in him?

   3. What's the relationship between Jesus and the Authour of the Grail Message?

   4. Do Parfisal & Jesus worship the father? If they do, can they be called God?

Thanks.