@Noetics15: « #30 on: Today at 10:39:08 PM »

Quote from: olabowale on Today at 09:41:39 PM
@Noetic15: « #20 on: October 02, 2009, 09:37 PM » Show us the place, and is the Vine plant that they covered their unclothedness from its leaves and the apple or fruit that they ate from still there? I will love Noetic15 to show me these things!


hae u searched allah's original bible?

noetic15, show me in the many versions of Bibles within the Christian community. Then I will simply point out your fallacy. But did you see above how Allah explains everything on the issue of where Adam was created, and the short stay in paradise with his wife, and their momentary lapse which led them out of Paradise in heavens and to the earth where they have to have children anyhow (children of Adam; brothers and sisters of evil Cain and good Abel, similar to Maryam sister of Haruun), and the forgiveness of the man and his wife, while Shaitan who used to be Iblis ( similar to Paul who used to be Saul), did not seek forgiveness, because of pride and arrogance?

[quote author=ttalks link=topic=331148.msg4708522#msg4708522 date=1255209952][/quote]

Yes, God knowingly brought evil into this world.
All to the working of his purpose.

Isa 45:7
(7) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Please what kind of Bible are you using. Be very careful. Yes God destroyed sodom. But let's take your biblical mentality; where in the Bible is it written that God created the devil?

Where is it recorded in the bible that the devil disobeyed God?

Of course you don't know where, after all is not disobedience if someone choses not to do what he is supposed to do. It's simply pride.

All the devil has been doing is what he was created for.

All the devil has been doing?
I reallly thought this devil of a thing used to be a powerful and special angel so close to God before. I wonder whether it is that this angel is fighting against God, or whether it is that God has refused to forgive this angel in His infinte mercy. Or whether this angel is so confident and unrepentant. Maybe you should tell me more

What is this?
What is what??

lightwalk:

Please what kind of Bible are you using. Be very careful. Yes God destroyed sodom. But let's take your biblical mentality; where in the Bible is it written that God created the devil?

Gen 3:1
(1) Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Aside from the fact that the above shows that the serpent(devil) was part of God's creation, the devil is the personification of all evil;the source of all evil.
So when God says he creates evil, it's simple to deduce that his product of evil(the devil) is the one unleashing this evil.
Or do u assume that the devil just happened on its own?
Everything that is was created by God.

Of course you don't know where, after all is not disobedience if someone choses not to do what he is supposed to do. It's simply pride.

please state where this "disobedience" of the devil took place.

All the devil has been doing?
I reallly thought this devil of a thing used to be a powerful and special angel so close to God before. I wonder whether it is that this angel is fighting against God, or whether it is that God has refused to forgive this angel in His infinte mercy. Or whether this angel is so confident and unrepentant. Maybe you should tell me more

Now, that's where the confusion comes from; the assumption that the devil was an angel of God before who probably disobeyed him.
Well,sorry. That was never the case.
The devil has been evil from inception.

Joh 8:44
(44) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Someone who is declared to have been a murderer from the very beginning could not have been a loving and beautiful angel at the same time.

What is this?
What is what??

Don't mind me. i was trying to adopt the style of one of my favorite posters; noetic(1,2,3, . . . .15).

This arguer for God shows an adept erudition in matters of the bible.his argumentative skill is also commendable,displaying an effortless ability to stand by ones point and belief.however,his arguement is inconsistent with the widely held believe in the omniscience,omnipresence,omnipotence and benevolence of God.if he asserts that the devil has been evil from creation,he contradicts the infinte benevolence of God.more so is he confused if the point is that the devil became disobedient and rebellious-this is an aberration to the omniscience of God.his arguement is characterised by an inability to read and interprete the bible objectivey.otherwise,he would come to terms with inconsistencies in the biblical accounts which modern believers try to latch together.mood,reason,need and objectives influence record of events.why does he not consider a dialectical composition of the the universe;in which case he recognises the continuous struggle and inevitable unity of opposites.thus,the idea of an omni benevolent God is abandoned for a more realistic,protector-and-punisher concept.

Catch-22.

The Jehovah's Witnesses have been clever by half about this:

They say God could have known what would happen, but he simply chose to suspend his power of looking into the future in this one instance.

Amost clever explanation, one'd say, except it patently absurd.
.

The truth is that man can never fully comprehend nor understand God. The biblical writters wrote their accounts in their understanding which would have been very limited as at the time they were alive, that aprt it is quite evident that there is a lot which God is yet to reveal to mankind.

So Kunle is saying that what Christian and Jewish God provided is not enough to understand anything or enough to navigated the maze of life; from cradle to grave? When will this God provides you what is missing?

If you have no answer; Quran will be an adequate spiritual drinking fountain, to quench your taste, each time you need to replenish! Dont be arrogant to take me up on this offer; Its free.

'and even if We had sent down to you (O muhammad) a message written on paper so that they could touch it with their hands, the disbelievers would have said,' this is nothing but pure magic' Quran 6:7

@olabowale, you are very right. Islam has the perfect set of intelligent and wise people. In fact their believers have no questions in life, neither do they waste their time in trying to understand life because it is all already very clear to them.

@Ttalks:
First I must commend you for accepting your mistake. However, it seems your knowledge of the devil is very limited.
So I will give ye what thoust requires and let ye speak for thine own

Isaiah 14:12 goes in this way 'How You are fallen form heaven. O Lucifer(Lucifer also means day star), son of the morning!
How You are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!'
Is 14:13: For you have said on your heart:
'I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt omy throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest side of the norht;
Is:14:14: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.'

Now as for the significance of stars,
Revelations:9:1: And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Stars singify the angels

Re:12:1: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Re:12:2: Then being with child she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth
Re:12:3: And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Re:12:4: His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her Child as soon as it was born.
Re:12:7: And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon and his angelsfought,
Re:12:8: And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Re:12:9: So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devila and Satan, who decieves the whole world was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him
Re:12:10: And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for [bold]the accuser of our brethren[/bold] is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Re:12:12: Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. [bold]Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea![/bold] for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea:
Does this mean that there are other inhabiters of other stars and that earth is not special but doomed
Does this mean that there are beings of the sea like us in the sight of God (maybe in another realm)?
Or does it mean woe to all creation of the earth and the sea, thus insinuating that the devil has brought evil amongst animals and erasing the belief that animals are not important like us?

Anyway. If you read this well you will see the point of my question.
If the Devil can do such harm and you say God created him,
You should remember that God is the Father of all he created
So the same God that is all good,
and all powerful,
and all knowing,
and all merciful,

created Evil
and left it to damage his creation starting from the war in heaven
And his angels were able to defeat a power that drew a third of the stars with its tail
The angels rejoiced that this power has been chased down from the heaven (This clearly shows that he was being tolerated before)
and that God could not do anything about it although his all pwerful
and although He was all merciful, He will never forgive the devil who is bound to hades

If God is all knowing does that mean that when before you were born He knew whether you are going to heaven or hell?
If you say so, then you see why you are making the person who says
'A God that plays prank on his people'
A God watching His people wrath in pain and anger of the devil
This same God created the evil knowingly to punish man?

Now God can do everything
The only reason that man could have disobeyed was that man was not perfect
So it was God that created an imperfect creation
And knew he was going to disobey him
and created the evil to drive war against Himself
and then His own creation?
So those who say we have God to blame in all are then right?
Because He is then the behind-perpetrator of all that happen
Be careful in your accusations of God
because it will may be blasmpehmy when You say God created evil
There was nowhere it was written in the Bible either

The serpent is just an animal that was created by God
It was the wisest animal
So the devil used it for his purpose of deceit
And after that the serpent was punished (for contaminating man), so don't make childish inferencs using that

Peace

lightwalk:


@Ttalks:
First I must commend you for accepting your mistake. However, it seems your knowledge of the devil is very limited.
So I will give ye what thoust requires and let ye speak for thine own

Er, - what mistake did i accept? 

Isaiah 14:12 goes in this way 'How You are fallen form heaven. O Lucifer(Lucifer also means day star), son of the morning!
How You are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!'
Is 14:13: For you have said on your heart:
'I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt omy throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest side of the norht;
Is:14:14: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.'

Did you read the whole chapter?
if you did, u'll find out that the above verses were not in reference to the devil but to the king of babylon.
The clincher is in verse 16:

Isa 14:16
(16)  They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

We know that the devil is a spirit being and not a man.But this passage was referring to a man.
The truth is, the verses u quoted along with some before and after them are/were a chant/song/proverb against the king of Babylon and never satan.

And besides, Lucifer is never the name of the devil;it is a misplaced word in the king james bible.It is a latin word depicting a star;venus in particular.
the term son of the morning was a qualifier used on the king of babylon because of his status and position in terms of the nations and the world. he was a powerful king.

Now as for the significance of stars,
Revelations:9:1: And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Stars singify the angels

Re:12:1: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Re:12:2: Then being with child she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth
Re:12:3: And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Re:12:4: His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her Child as soon as it was born.
Re:12:7: And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon and his angelsfought,
Re:12:8: And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Re:12:9: So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devila and Satan, who decieves the whole world was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him
Re:12:10: And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for [bold]the accuser of our brethren[/bold] is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Re:12:12: Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. [bold]Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea![/bold] for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea:
Does this mean that there are other inhabiters of other stars and that earth is not special but doomed
Does this mean that there are beings of the sea like us in the sight of God (maybe in another realm)?
Or does it mean woe to all creation of the earth and the sea, thus insinuating that the devil has brought evil amongst animals and erasing the belief that animals are not important like us?

The theory u are building from this verses(especially chapter 12) does not support your claim that the devil was initially an angel of God.
This is because -
- the war here takes place when mankind is already in existence and not before as your 'devil - angel' theory suggests.
-if mankind was already in existence,then the devil could never have been that supposed angel because mankind started from adam and the devil was already the devil when he met with Adam/eve.

Verse 10 makes it very clear that this was takes place as mankind is in existence; because there is no way that the devil could have been accusing brethren before God day and night if there was no mankind.
that even shows that he has been his devil self ever since based on the fact that he was already the accuser of the brethren before this war.
so this war u are talking about or trying to present is not having to do with the supposed fall of the devil from his angelic position but a war which probably happened later long after mankind has already been on earth or is still a futuristic event yet to happen.

An example of the devil performing his accuser of the brethren activities is in Job 1:6-12.

Anyway. If you read this well you will see the point of my question.
If the Devil can do such harm and you say God created him,
You should remember that God is the Father of all he created
So the same God that is all good,
and all powerful,
and all knowing,
and all merciful,

created Evil
and left it to damage his creation starting from the war in heaven
And his angels were able to defeat a power that drew a third of the stars with its tail
The angels rejoiced that this power has been chased down from the heaven (This clearly shows that he was being tolerated before)
and that God could not do anything about it although his all pwerful
and although He was all merciful, He will never forgive the devil who is bound to hades

If God is all knowing does that mean that when before you were born He knew whether you are going to heaven or hell?
If you say so, then you see why you are making the person who says
'A God that plays prank on his people'
A God watching His people wrath in pain and anger of the devil
This same God created the evil knowingly to punish man?

Now God can do everything
The only reason that man could have disobeyed was that man was not perfect
So it was God that created an imperfect creation
And knew he was going to disobey him
and created the evil to drive war against Himself
and then His own creation?
So those who say we have God to blame in all are then right?
Because He is then the behind-perpetrator of all that happen
Be careful in your accusations of God
because it will may be blasmpehmy when You say God created evil
There was nowhere it was written in the Bible either

The serpent is just an animal that was created by God
It was the wisest animal
So the devil used it for his purpose of deceit
And after that the serpent was punished (for contaminating man), so don't make childish inferencs using that

Peace

I don't need to say much about these above cos I know your driving force is your understanding of some things.

But I'll respond to the last parts:

You say there is no where it was written that God created evil. But I gave a verse earlier showing where God said he creates evil:

Isa 45:7
(7)  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The devil has always been refered to as the serpent,so your claim saying that he just entered or used a serpent at the beginning is at most,funny.

Rev 12:9
(9)  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Isa 27:1
(1)  In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

The serpent above is in reference to the devil and not the literal sea monster.

As i said before, God created the devil; he didn't just happen,nor was he an angel of God before.

Job 26:13
(13)  By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

Isa 54:16
(16)  Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

The verse immediately above says a lot.The devil is the waster and he was created to destroy.

A lot might not be clear to you now, but they definitely will be soon.

The sooner we realize that God is at the helm of every affair;everything that takes place in this life, the better it is for us to understand him and his purpose.

Col 1:16-17
(16)  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
(17)  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

The verse above is more than enough to say that all things; whether good or bad, nice or evil, all things that exist(which includes the devil) were created by God and for him(for his purpose) and all things by him consist(Originate (in),Have its essential character; be comprised or contained in; be embodied in, Be composed of).

The devil at work was created by God;it is by him and for him(that is; for his purpose).

God's word tells us so and it stands no matter how uncomfortable it might make man feel or think about it.
Rather than wonder at how unimaginable it is,we should try to determine the purpose for it.

Eph 1:11
(11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Rom 11:34-36
(34) For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
(35) Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
(36) For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.