@abuzola

Salam Alaykum,

The hadeeth has only a single Isnad, which can still be re-interpreted. First, there is no single verse of the Quran that command killing apopstate. And in the light of sharia as practiced by prophet Muhammad, we should be able to reference to at least example. Apsotacy could killed if trace to treason or rebellion and in war, he can be forgiven if he mean no harm. There is evidence of someone who came to cancel his pledge from being a muslim, prophet never ordered him to be killed. However, there were examples where apostate killed during the throne of Abubakri,uthman and others. There are apostacy laws in Islam as stated by all four imama, I will be surprise if anybody say there is no killing it. However, one should understand from the fore knowldge of the principals to extract the circumstances around each individual incident of apsotate before pronounce death judgement. In other words, what I am clearly emphasising is the wisdom and the best guidance Allah endowed us before judgment is prnonounced. According to sharia, apostate has levels and the highest level is the one which death warant could be pronounced. I wish if you have more reference I think we can discuss it. Maa salam.

@aloy~emeka

I am coming for your response.

@aloy_emeka

Who said anything about manipulating the law?. The God of the bible is concise and clear on these issues and offers total forgiveness as long there is repentance. You Allah, on the other hand do not offer forgiveness, rather, he offers punishment as a form of absolution. Which do you think is better and more real?.

Oh brother, Sorry for not responding earlier, I am too busy these days. Almighty Allah encourages the believer to enter into his faith whole heartedly and follow the path which he recommended for them. In my last response, I suppose you got it right that I never says apostate can't be killed.

Undeniably, there is provision in the law of Islam that apostate is punishable by death. However, depends on the community, and the contemporary circumstance in such community. Moreso, I am not a judge or scholar to pronounce death warant on fatwah on someone who leave Islam. But if someone does in a particular community, such judgement can can be assessed whether it is in line with what Allah says and the way prophet Muhammad explained it or implemented it in his life. The essence of killing someone that leave Islam must be more that just ordinary conversion, which is permissible. However, killing everyone that leave Islam is not justified either in the Quran or Hadith. First, there is no single verse of the Quran that prescribe death punishment for apostate. The hadeeth that says the apostate should be killed has only a sinle isnad which is not enough for judgement, except with interpretation. There is evidence in the hadeeth described a bedouin who came to prophet to cancel his pledge, but prophet Muhammad never killed him ordered him to be killed. Summarily, killing apostate is subjected to many interpretations which actualy depends on the community and most of those killed are possibly trace to rebellion or treason.

Now, I need to highlight some of christians lies in your response:

The God of the bible is concise and clear on these issues and offers total forgiveness as long there is repentance.

I guess the gods of bible is different from one another, there is nothing like absolute forgiveness. The essence of having punishment is to deter others and the offender. The highest of all worldly punishment is death, which is actually the recommendation for apostate according to the bible. You can read the bold lines below:

"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people." Deut 13:6-9

"And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, , and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die." Deut 17:3-5

"All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman." 2 Chronic 15:13

Jesus never sanctioned killing of anybody anywhere in the bible. Mohammed was a murderer but Jesus is alive and a lover, not a murderer.

Math 15:4 "For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'" (by jesus)


See, I cannot present all what the bible says about punishment. However, if people are wrongly implementing the laws or not using it, I don't know which is better, I believe Alloy-emeka would never fit follow what the bible says!

@littleb
Don't tell me you did not see my Quranic quotation

if ibn Abbas lied then what about ibn mas'ud

from Abdullah ibn mas'ud that the messenger of God said,' it is not permissible to shed the blood of a muslim who bears there is no god but Allah and i am the messenger of Allah except in one of three, a soul for soul (murder), adultery and an apostate'
bukhari, 6484


A ruler can decide to forgive the apostate, it all depend on the ruler if he favor him or execute the law due to bonified reason

I will warn you guys not to follow ur heart and transgress despite showing u clear proof

'and whoever opposes the messenger (muhammad) after the right path has been shown clearly to him and follow other than the believer way,We shall keep him in the path he has chosen, and burn him in hell. What an evil destination' Quran 4:115

A word is enough for the wise, ibn mas ud and ibn abbas are well learned scholar, imam bukhari is the greatest of the scholar of hadith, bukhari dismissed thousands of hadith he doubts their authencity in his compilation

This is the 4th hadith am quoting to you people, if you like nullify it again

ABU DAWUD hadith, arabic version, vol 4, page 126. 'kitaab al hudud'

ibn Abbas reported the Holy Prophet saying,'whoever changes his religion should be put to death'




'and whoever opposes the messenger (muhammad) after the right path has been shown clearly to him and follow other than the believer way,We shall keep him in the path he has chosen, and burn him in hell. What an evil destination' Quran 4:115

from Abdullah ibn mas'ud that the messenger of God said,' it is not permissible to shed the blood of a muslim who bears there is no god but Allah and i am the messenger of Allah except in one of three, a soul for soul (murder), adultery and an apostate' bukhari, 6484

At the bolded;

1. Soul for a soul while Masjid Haram/the princinct of Kaaba a security place where the Murderer cant be hurt, when he gets there. Also there is
something called "blood-money" payment or complete forgiveness by the family of the victim. Their decision is the final human decision on the
matter. I am sure you do not the Quranic verse on this matter because you know it already.

2. And even at stoning, if the one being stoned for adultery says that he did not commit the sin, the prophet (AS) says that you must leave him for
Allah to decide, because maybe He has forgiven him or her. You do know that it happened, and Ali bin AbiTalib did not allow a woman to be
stoned based on her mental conditions.

3. The issue of apostasy, I have addressed it many times. I am certain that no muslim alive today is a better muslim than the weakest of those
who are companions; if Muhammad (AS) and Umar (RA) allowed people to go about their lives after they left islam, using Quran as their guide, then your understanding of the ahadith to "kill" a person who changes his religion needs a good and better understanding. If taking as it reads from the ahadith; no one should become muslim, from time that that ahadith was first uttered; those pagan should then be killed for converting to Islam! You see how wrong all of it could have been, if we do not go to the people who understand the meaning of ahadith? We will then kill all Hausas, Yorubas, Fulanis, etc who became muslims after that ahadith!

@Abuzola: Surah Nisaa explains the condition of soul for soul. You will see that blanketted forgiveness is expressed as follows: (92. It is not for a believer to kill a believer except by mistake; and whosoever kills a believer by mistake, he must set free a believing slave and submit compensation (blood money) to the deceased's family unless they remit it. If the deceased belonged to a people at war with you and he was a believer, the freeing of a believing slave (is prescribed); and if he belonged to a people with whom you have a treaty of mutual alliance, then compensation (blood money) must be paid to his family, and a believing slave must be freed. And whoso finds this beyond his means, he must fast for two consecutive months in order to seek repentance from Allah. And Allah is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise.) (93. And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell to abide therein; and the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a great punishment is prepared for him.)

@Abuzola: « #61 on: Today at 09:04:34 AM »  

Sir olabowale~ saudi arabia did not ban women from driving, i went to saudi arabia as a matter of fact I saw a woman driving jeep, this are lies by the media.

Saudi arabia are sunni nation, strictly Quran and hadith, anything that does not go with sunnah or Quran they dismiss it, this is the true doctrine of a true believer. So forget the fact that they may make mistake, Islamic scholars are the pillar of the nation

My dear brother do not worship Saudi Arabia, replacing Allah and His Messenger by Saudi. I do business there. I have a lawyer friend from America living there: Madina at the invitation of their government, for education policies. Saudi and indeed the larger arab and muslim world, ignorantly degress the conditions of women, from the full partnership that they had during the prophet (AS) to people walking at the fringes, right now. While many men think their wives are responsible for cleaning, cooking, housekeeping, etc. But thats not what one will find in the Quran! It is clear that the one who understands Quran best was Muhammad (AS) the receiver of this noble Book, hence, one will have to look at his interaction with women, etc to make pure judgement. I will not look at Saudi as an ideal Islamic country, but maybe the best that we have today. And that is not speaking volume about the state of Kalifah-less islam presently. It will just as naive to assume that Zamfara is an ideal islamic state, considering that wearing beard is not even the governor practices, yet, this particular injuction can be traced to Quranic verse of "not changing one gender natural appearnace!", and the ahadith supported it, since Allah also said whatever Muhammad gives take and what he forbids, walk away from it.

 

« #62 on: Today at 09:07:28 AM »
',,, but if they turn back (from islam) take hold of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither auliya nor helpers from them' Quran 4:89

Below is the Tafsir of this very verse; You will see that the former muslims are even divided into many subclasses and its their hostility and not their mere leaving Islam that warants a fight of kill or be killed towards them.

Combatants and Noncombatants: Allah excluded some people; (Except those who join a group, between you and whom there is a treaty (of peace),) meaning, except those who join and take refuge with a people with whom you have a pact of peace, or people of Dhimmah, then treat them as you treat the people with whom you have peace. This is the saying of As-Suddi, Ibn Zayd and Ibn Jarir. In his Sahih, Al-Bukhari recorded the story of the treaty of Al-Hudaybiyyah, where it was mentioned that whoever liked to have peace with Quraysh and conduct a pact with them, then they were allowed. Those who liked to have peace with Muhammad and his Companions and enter a pact with them were allowed.

It was reported that Ibn `Abbas said that this was later abrogated by Allah's statement; (Then when the Sacred Months have passed, kill the idolators wherever you find them) Allah said; (or those who approach you with their breasts restraining) referring to another type of people covered by the exclusion from fighting. They are those who approach the Muslims with hesitation in their hearts because of their aversion to fighting the Muslims. They do not have the heart to fight with the Muslims against their own people. Therefore, they are neither with nor against Muslims. (Had Allah willed, indeed He would have given them power over you, and they would have fought you.) meaning, it is from Allah's mercy that He has stopped them from fighting you.

(So, if they withdraw from you, and fight not against you, and offer you peace,) meaning, they revert to peace, (then Allah has opened no way for you against them), you do not have the right to kill them, as long as they take this position. This was the position of Banu Hashim (the tribe of the Prophet ), such as Al-`Abbas, who accompanied the idolators in the battle of Badr, for they joined the battle with great hesitation. This is why the Prophet commanded that Al-`Abbas not be killed, but only captured. Allah's statement, (You will find others that wish to have security from you and security from their people.) refers to a type of people who on the surface appear to be like the type we just mentioned. However, the intention of each type is different, for the latter are hypocrites. They pretend to be Muslims with the Prophet and his Companions, so that they could attain safety with the Muslims for their blood, property and families. However, they support the idolators in secret and worship what they worship, so that they are at peace with them also. These people have secretly sided with the idolators, just as Allah described them,

(But when they are alone with their Shayatin, they say: "Truly, we are with you.''). In this Ayah, Allah said, (Every time they are sent back to Fitnah, they yield thereto.) meaning, they dwell in Fitnah. As-Suddi said that the Fitnah mentioned here refers to Shirk. Ibn Jarir recorded that Mujahid said that the Ayah was revealed about a group from Makkah who used to go to the Prophet [in Al-Madinah] pretending to be Muslims. However, when they went back to Quraysh, they reverted to worshipping idols. They wanted to be at peace with both sides. Allah commanded they should be fought against, unless they withdraw from combat and resort to peace.

This is why Allah said, (If they withdraw not from you, nor offer you peace) meaning, revert to peaceful and complacent behaviors,(nor restrain their hands) refrain from fighting you, (take (hold of) them), capture them, (and kill them wherever you Thaqiftumuhum.), wherever you find them, (In their case, We have provided you with a clear warrant against them), meaning an unequivocal and plain warrant.

« #63 on: Today at 09:10:41 AM »  

If you believe tirmidhi hadith is a fake, then let me present Bukhari hadith, the highest authority in islam
Ibn Abbas said,'I heard the messenger of Allah said,' Whoever changes his religion should be put to death'

Sahih bukhari, hadith 6922

And the statement of Aisha of her age in marriage with the prophet (AS) was recorded as sahih in Bakhari. Right? Now tell me what is the definition of hadith, if not only what comes from Muhammad  or said in his presence, which he did not object to. Now reconcile that statement of Aisha to meet definition of ahadith and let me see how that will fly? Abbass (ra) was used as illustration of the ahadith of apostasy, during the end of the battle of Badr, where many were capture and ransome were sort! Remember that Abu Bakr position was taken over Umars? And remember that Umar was reading Torah in a later date and Abu Bakr had to correct him?

I put these human faces on these Sahaba of the prophet, so that they even make mistake, and will it be impossible for Bukhari to make mistake? When we have a disagreement between Quran and ahadith interpretation, guess which one that must be accepted? It is the Quran, so tell me where in Quran, as the prophet gives explanation of all possible verses he can explain, except the complete explanation of Riba, only left at 72 level, the least as if a man was sleeping with him mother, and the alphabet verses which are known to Allah alone.

@Abuzola: « #68 on: Today at 11:56:18 AM »

This is the 4th hadith am quoting to you people, if you like nullify it again
ABU DAWUD hadith, arabic version, vol 4, page 126. 'kitaab al hudud'
ibn Abbas reported the Holy Prophet saying,'whoever changes his religion should be put to death'

No relogion, no people to do the killing is specified. So by the face of it, anyone could kill anybody who change his/her religion to another or no religion at all. Even if from other religion to yours. This will be a horrible knowledge, except that the people of knowledge of ahadith will give a full explanation, and this must agree with Quran and the natural disposition of the prophet (AS)!

'and whoever opposes the messenger (muhammad) after the right path has been shown clearly to him and follow other than the believer way,We shall keep him in the path he has chosen, and burn him in hell. What an evil destination' Quran 4:115

This verse talks about allowing them to be alive, as it expresses "keeping him in the path", futhering the conclusion at death and day of judgement as "burning him in hell" is indicated, since no hell fire is on earth.

Smile*
@olabowale. You should know by now that i reason with mature mind.

My first thread this year is to condemn makkans for smoking. You see No one need to tell you i that i don't worship saudi.

Ibn abbas: in the first arguement you claim only one isnad exist after presenting ibn mas'ud hadith you then change ur earlier statement when refuting Abu dawud hadith that the matn 'whoever leave his religion' could mean any religion aside islam. This is hilarious


we don't need an intermidiary to explain that hadith, if i say the religion is good what do i mean, isn't it islam ?

I did hadith in school so i don't need any hadith scholar

You refuted Apostate in the Quran by quoting a verse after or before it, funny to me.

Quran 10:37 says The Quran is unique and a confirmation of torah and injeel. So ur point is the verse pre or post the verse can change its meaning, this is also hilarious. The Quran was not revealed chapter by chapter but revealed verse by verse and in different scenario

Sir olabowale, you gave example of murder, adultery that they cannot be executed unless they re guilty of it. The same thing with me, an apostate cannot be executed in doubt or ignominy

Check out the book 'Al mughni' 9/18

ibn Qudaamah said,' The apostate should not be put to death till he has been asked to repent three times. This is the view of majority of scholars, including umar, Ali, ata, Al nakhar, imam malik and a host of others'




'and whoever opposes the messenger (muhammad) after the right path has been shown clearly to him and follow other than the believer way,We shall keep him in the path he has chosen, and burn him in hell. What an evil destination' Quran 4:115

I have an assignment for you olabowale, You are quick to say any hadith that does not have backing with the Quran is invalid

Quote me in the Quran where muslim were instructed to perform zuhr and asr prayer with four rakat and starting with suratul fatiha as opening prayer. Waiting ,,,,

May almigthy Allah guides us right. I don't think I need to reharse what I have said earlier. The rullings regarding apostate is very broad and controversial one. It is beyond literal translation of hadith. One should be very careful in saying what it is what is not, by turnng internet ups and downs. The word 'kill him' in the hadeeth should be handle carefully. And in order to understand the Islamic legal cause, one should consult the authorities and the origins of Islamic laws.

The jurist on the issue of apostate generally place it in imperative mood, which is a command or order. The imperative in islam under sharia cannot be said to have a single meaning unless there is a factual evidence to support it. With this, first the Quran does not prescribe any punishment for apostate, though describe it as a great sin. And the prophet who said apostacy must be killed never he himself had an apostate put to death. There were cases in which people apostasized and never by any means ordered any of them to be killed. There was a case of apostate where jews would pretend to have accepted Islam in the part of the day and later show they did not believe. At that time, prophet was the ruler in medina. In consequent, one cannot imagine how such people would have done under this govt which punish apostates by death, wheras they were not in fact, punished in any way.

In the the interpretation of the law of apostate, there are other punishment for apostates according to sharia. During the caliphate of umar, a man came to him from a section of the army, and the caliph asked him what had been done to those people who were known to have apostatized. the man replied, they had been killed, Umar then said, if he could have taken them in peace it would have been the best thing for him and I would have imprisoned them. Ibn thaimiya, in his view support that apostate could be punished but not death penalty(subscribe to tazir).

There were some followers such as Ibrahim al-Nakh, sufyan alta-wri would hold to the oppinions that apostates should be invited back to islam and should never be sentenced to death.

In contrary, there were evidence in the life of sahabah where apostate were killed. An example is seen in the likes of moath who order a captive from yemen to be killed. Morover, the jurists who hold that the apostate should be sentenced to death never agreed upon this punishment in totality, they sometimes refer to tazir, which is lesser punishment.

All these few examples shows different examples and circumstances. However, it cannot be generalise every individual apostate should be killed. If someone think or has a glaring evidence of the law of apostates in line with its application in islam, both in history and in our contemporary, its is better we present it, rather than generalising it, and their is sin for not contemplating truth and misguiding others for it on issue we dont have full authority on it.

Walahu Almustaan

littleb:

@aloy_emeka

Now, I need to highlight some of christians lies in your response:

I guess the gods of bible is different from one another, there is nothing like absolute forgiveness. The essence of having punishment is to deter others and the offender. The highest of all worldly punishment is death, which is actually the recommendation for apostate according to the bible. You can read the bold lines

They are not. Trinity does not mean three Gods. It means three persons/forms in one God. The holy spirit is one of them which is the active force of God, Jesus is God personified etc.

Let me ask you the same question Olabowale asked me in another thread: If you believe that God is most powerful, why is it difficult for you to believe that he can manifest in different forms?.

below:

"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people." Deut 13:6-9

"And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, , and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die." Deut 17:3-5

"All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman." 2 Chronic 15:13

I guess I took care of this question in Mushin's thread. Christ came because of these laws. Didn't you notice they are Jewish laws found in the new testament?, duh.

[b]Math 15:4 "For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'" (by jesus)[/b]


See, I cannot present all what the bible says about punishment. However, if people are wrongly implementing the laws or not using it, I don't know which is better, I believe Alloy-emeka would never fit follow what the bible says!

I guess you meant Mattew or Matt and not Math 15:4?. Instead of copying and pasting wrongly, why not copy the whole text and you will notice it's a quotation in the old testament that Jesus used to answer the questions the threw at him. Read the full text and let me know where you read Jesus say such a thing:

Matthew 15

1Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,

2Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

3But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

4For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

5But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;

6And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

7Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9[b]But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.[/b]

10And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:

11[b]Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.[/b]

12Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?

13But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

14Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

15Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.

16And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

17[b]Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?[/b]

18But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

19[b]For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:[/b]

20These are the things which defile a man:[b] but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a ma[/b]n.

Aloy~Emeka:


They are not. Trinity does not mean three Gods. It means three persons/forms in one God. The holy spirit is one of them which is the active force of God, Jesus is God personified etc.

[b]Let me ask you the same question Olabowale asked me in another thread: If you believe that God is most powerful, why is it difficult for you to believe that he can manifest in different forms?.
[/b]


I guess I took care of this question in Mushin's thread. Christ came because of these laws. Didn't you notice they are Jewish laws found in the new testament?, duh.

I guess you meant Mattew or Matt and not Math 15:4?. Instead of copying and pasting wrongly, why not copy the whole text and you will notice it's a quotation in the old testament that Jesus used to answer the questions the threw at him. Read the full text and let me know where you read Jesus say such a thing:

Manifestation of God is a relative word. Can someone say God created himself in his own image, thereby imagine the kind of eye God has for possibility to see every activity at round 360 degree? Or can we say God appear in form of human being, which clearly evidensed that God is in human form? Or, there is no trust again in human being as a prophet and as a messanger, so God himslelf decided to appear in human form for people to comprehend his message?
These are some of the the thinking that troubled whoever studied bible.

However, Islam came with the best description God that clear all the chiristians freind ambiguity. Allah uses just a single verse and single surah to clear all these ambiguity, thus:


"Allah! There is no god but He - the Living, The Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him Nor Sleep. His are all things In the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede In His presence except As he permitteth? He knoweth What (appeareth to His creatures As) Before or After or Behind them. Nor shall they compass Aught of his knowledge Except as He willeth. His throne doth extend Over the heavens And on earth, and He feeleth No fatigue in guarding And preserving them, For He is the Most High. The Supreme (in glory)."
[Surah al-Baqarah 2: 255]


1 "Say (O Muhammad (Peace be upon him)): "He is Allah, (the) One.
2 "Allah-us-Samad (The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks).
3 "He begets not, nor was He begotten;
4 "And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him."
Surah Ikhlas


The question now is over to you, is it right in our own capacity to imagine a particular manifestation God? Which one?

@aloy-emeka
if u claim dat God is in three forms,can u give us one verse,any verse frm d Bible where Jesus said"i am a form of God"or"i am part of God"or where he ever said"do not follow the old testament laws".Jesus said he has not come 2 erase any law of God but to implement and also said he can of his ownself do nothing.Trinity was innovated after Jesus ,there was nothing like that in his lifetime.

@aloy-emeka
if u claim dat God is in three forms,can u give us one verse,any verse frm d Bible where Jesus said"i am a form of God"or"i am part of God"or where he ever said"do not follow the old testament laws".Jesus said he has not come 2 erase any law of God but to implement and also said he can of his ownself do nothing.Trinity was innovated after Jesus ,there was nothing like that in his lifetime.

@aloy-emeka
if u claim dat God is in three forms,can u give us one verse,any verse frm d Bible where Jesus said"i am a form of God"or"i am part of God"or where he ever said"do not follow the old testament laws".Jesus said he has not come 2 erase any law of God but to implement and also said he can of his ownself do nothing.Trinity was innovated after Jesus ,there was nothing like that in his lifetime.

Manifestation of God is a relative word. Can someone say God created himself in his own image, thereby imagine the kind of eye God has for possibility to see every activity at round 360 degree? Or can we say God appear in form of human being, which clearly evidensed that God is in human form? Or, there is no trust again in human being as a prophet and as a messanger, so God himslelf decided to appear in human form for people to comprehend his message?
These are some of the the thinking that troubled whoever studied bible.

I don't know what you are trying to say but the bible said :God created man in His own[b] IMage[/b] and LikeNess. Read isiah and you will will see the prophecy about the birth of Jesus Christ. I repeat, the holy spirit is our teacher and until you feel it, your head will continue to spin. God can appear in form of anything He wishes to appear for HE is God.

LittleBomb, read this thread and you will see so many anomalies in Islam:
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-327869.0.html

The question now is over to you, is it right in our own capacity to imagine a particular manifestation God? Which one?

You can't fathom God because He is indescribable. The holy spirit is our teacher and not some scholar with a goatee.

ruhu:

@aloy-emeka
if u claim dat God is in three forms,can u give us one verse,any verse frm d Bible where Jesus said"i am a form of God"or"i am part of God"or where he ever said"do not follow the old testament laws".Jesus said he has not come 2 erase any law of God but to implement and also said he can of his ownself do nothing.Trinity was innovated after Jesus ,there was nothing like that in his lifetime.

I just posted Mattew 15. Read verse 9 and determine why He used "worship" there. Are we supposed to worship prophets?

@Aloy~Emeka: « #80 on: Today at 01:19:41 AM »  

They are not. Trinity does not mean three Gods. It means three persons/forms in one God. The holy spirit is one of them which is the active force of God, Jesus is God personified etc.

Tri at least three. Is Trinity not a combination of Tri and Deity, meaning 3 Gods, since Deity means god? Aloy~Emeka, are you telling me that three persons in One God is what you a brainiac worship? Lol. (Wrong belief is a very wrong thing for a good heart; it polutes it!).

Let me ask you the same question Olabowale asked me in another thread: If you believe that God is most powerful, why is it difficult for you to believe that he can manifest in different forms?.

Some things forbids Himself; comingling with, or being one of or behaving like His creation is one of them; Jesus behaved and actually was one of the creations. God allows people to live out their lives; drink all the allotted liquids, eat all the foods allotted to them, breath all the air, without shortchanging them and no one can prolonged or increase any of them. The issue is this, Allah is different from Maqluq (creatures). Creator is different from creation.

I will in sha continue to respond later in sha Allah.

olabowale:

@Aloy~Emeka: « #80 on: Today at 01:19:41 AM »  Tri at least three. Is Trinity not a combination of Tri and Deity, meaning 3 Gods, since Deity means god? Aloy~Emeka, are you telling me that three persons in One God is what you a brainiac worship? Lol. (Wrong belief is a very wrong thing for a good heart; it polutes it!)

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Liar liar apata afaya. TriUnity= Trinity and not TriDeity. TriUne God it is so check your facts well before posting them.

I just have a low battery, alloy emeka never think more on the problem of their imagination which has no reference. In sha Allah, I need to sleep. May allah guides all.

I guess I took care of this question in Mushin's thread. Christ came because of these laws. Didn't you notice they are Jewish laws found in the new testament?

I guess you meant Mattew or Matt and not Math 15:4?. Instead of copying and pasting wrongly, why not copy the whole text and you will notice it's a quotation in the old testament that Jesus used to answer the questions the threw at him. Read the full text and let me know where you read Jesus say such a thing:

The same OT that you guys say its now a one line :love your God and neighbor? Are you paying attention to what Jesus said about not abrogating the laws and the prophets?

And are you denying that Jesus called himself Prophet or even son of man, yet you worship him, man?

@Aloy~Emeka: « #89 on: Today at 02:00:24 AM »

Quote from: olabowale on Today at 01:55:50 AM
@Aloy~Emeka: « #80 on: Today at 01:19:41 AM » Tri at least three. Is Trinity not a combination of Tri and Deity, meaning 3 Gods, since Deity means god? Aloy~Emeka, are you telling me that three persons in One God is what you a brainiac worship? Lol. (Wrong belief is a very wrong thing for a good heart; it polutes it!)
.
Liar liar apata afaya. TriUnity= Trinity and not TriDeity. TriUne God it is so check your facts well before posting them.

Lol! You become cranky; wow. Tri is 3, Unity is agreement in purpose or something like that. No? Then tell me you are not saying Trinity is 3 are in agreement in purpose? So where did God come in then; 3 gods in agreement in purpose?

You have to explain this out on your own, and I will not stop kneading you with it! So Aloy~Emeka, are you saying that you have 1 God in "3" persons? So what happened to the godly strength as in concentration of Godship when you claimed one of them died, or when he was fighting death in hell? All of these you Christians use to elevate Jesus, furthering your Trinity concept, while I am very certain that you insult the Creator Who is neither a father, nor a chair sitting, nor son, nor errant running spirit, or Jesus!

@Abuzola: #78 on: October 18, 2009, 09:00 PM »

I have an assignment for you olabowale, You are quick to say any hadith that does not have backing with the Quran is invalid
Quote me in the Quran where muslim were instructed to perform zuhr and asr prayer with four rakat and starting with suratul fatiha as opening prayer. Waiting ,,,,

we both agree, i think that zuhr prayer is instructed in surah muminu, and Muhammad (as) explains it by ahadith and or sunnah to be four (4) rakah. by the way the companions made exactly the same amount of rakah, after the death of the prophet, and no one has changed it yet. and if any does, it will be rejeceted and unacceptable, just like mommar ghadaffi's surah iklas without the beginnig "Qul!"

with the above in mind, please tell me where every apostate was killed by the prophet or the sahaba (RA) after him (AS), even with the singular ahadith which says "if anyone (meaning without any exception) changes his religion (all religions or every religion) kill him (without any other reason, in addition to just leaving islam)". that ahadith, if it has no further explanation for a specific group of those to be killed, then everyone would be killed by anybody.

if you specify islam as the religion, then those who come to it will be killed as well as those who leave it.

if you now say that it is is for those who leave it, reading your specific meaning, then the former sahaba who converted to christianity in abasha (ethiopia) would have been killed by the sahaba who remained in ethiopia, and they must have better understanding of islam than you and i, while the prophet was alive with them. now i wonder why muhammad (as) did not instruct wholesale killing of all apostate, including the ones who left islam immediately after Isra wa Miraj? you will expect that he will ask for their heads after Makka was conquered. dont do you think so?

@sir olabowale: if you people have heed to my instruction in my very first post on this thread we wouldn't ve argue much.


I wouldn't want to talk on this issue because of




Quran 4:59 'O you who believe ! Obey Allah and obey the messenger and those of you who are in authority

And if you differ in anything amongst yourselves refer it to Allah and His messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last Day. This is better and more suitable for final determination'

But because you raise the issue let me touch it


If you believe that the Quran mention zuhr and the hadith explains it then you affirm my word, see

Quran 4:89 ',,, but if they turn back (from Islam) take hold of them and kill them wherever you find them and take neither auliya nor helpers from them'

This hadith explains it,

Narrated ibn Abbas that the Prophet said,'whoever changes his religion should be put to death' Sahih bukhari, 6922




Not all apostate in the time of Prophet Muhammad were put to death because a law is implemented when it pass through legislature and the executive.

Islamic jurisdiction was not imposed on one night, it began gradually

Many muslim died before salat (salah) was prescribed.

Many muslim died before fasting of ramadan was prescribed

many muslim died before hajj was prescribed.

Many muslim die before the law of murder was prescribed


many muslim died before the law of adultery was prescribed



And lastly, many muslim died before the law of apostate was prescribed.

I hope you get my point