lordnicklaus:
This thread is strictly a discussion between me (lordnicklaus) and johnydon22.

The hell fire doctrine is seen as one intrinsic to Christendom and is gobbled up by minds whose morality is imbued by fear. It is quite a pity that the masses readily accept such appaling doctrine as authentic and coming from a benevolent creator. Cultures all over the world in one form or another have this concept of a gory place of torture and eternal retribution for earthly wrongs. Tartarus, Ygdrassil, Hell Fire Jahannam, e.t.c. are abhorrent concepts used to scare morally vulnerable minds into seeing the benefits of a goodly life. This thread is set to reveal why such is far from the Bible and to delve into reasons such absurdity will continue to thrive in various cultures holding such teaching as right.

Cc johnydon22

dblackninja:


Not to intrude, just wanna ask you lordnicklaus, do you believe in any form of hell (a place of torture) whether biblical or not?

lordnicklaus:

No, I don't.

ValentineMary:
Make I spread mat here.

lordnicklaus:
This thread is strictly a discussion between me (lordnicklaus) and johnydon22.

The hell fire doctrine is seen as one intrinsic to Christendom and is gobbled up by minds whose morality is imbued by fear.

It is quite a pity that the masses readily accept such appaling doctrine as authentic and coming from a benevolent creator.

Cultures all over the world in one form or another have this concept of a gory place of torture and eternal retribution for earthly wrongs.

THE NINE REALMS ARE:

Ásgarðr (Asgard), the home of the Æsir

Álfheimr or Ljósálfheimr, the home of the Ljósálfar

Niðavellir or Svartálfaheimr, the home of the Dökkálfar or the Dwarves

Miðgarðr (Midgard), the home of humans

Jötunheimr or Útgarðr, the home of the Jötnar

Vanaheimr, the home of the Vanir

Niflheimr, a world of ice and snow, and home of the dishonorable dead

Múspellsheimr, a world of fire and lava and home of the Jötunn Surtr

Hel(heimr), the resting place for those souls who do not go to Valhalla, or Niflheim

This thread is set to reveal why such is far from the Bible and to delve into reasons such absurdity will continue to thrive in various cultures holding such teaching as right.

Cc johnydon22

oaroloye:
SHALOM!



Then what are you doing HERE?

Why don't you two just get a room?



Seen by whom?

Only Sinners have to fear Hell,



Why is it appaling?

Where did you learn that The Creator was Benevolent?

Is it just for Him to be benevolent to those who do not deserve it?



But you said that Hell Firer Doctrine is seen as intrinsic to Christendom.

Do you really know what you are talking about?

^{Tartarus, Ygdrassil, Hell Fire Jahannam, e.t.c. are abhorrent concepts used to scare morally vulnerable minds into seeing the benefits of a goodly life.}

TARTARUS is the Greek Abyss under HADES, the Realm of the Dead.

JAHANNAM is the Islamic Hell.

YGGDRASSIL is the Tree that connects the Nine Realms in the Norse Concept of Creation.

It is not an abhorrent concept.



THIS ESTABLISHES THAT YOU PROBABLY DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.



I DOUBT THAT VERY MUCH.

You have no Direct Knowledge of anything.

You think that the Ancients who Taught this just made stuff up?

There is nothing absurd about HELL, nor HELL FIRE.

FIRE and WATER are useful for Spiritual Containment and Conduits.

Hell is necessary to contain those few Evil Souls that survive the death of their Physical Shells and keep them from pulling Evil Stunts, like causing Fatal Accidents in order to feed off of the Spiritual Energies released by Grief and Death. Also, Said Spirits can possibly seize the Bodies of the Newborn, and deny them life, taking their bodies to live on, unjustly.

Why is it that the only people who blaspheme God for creating Hell are not even qualified to go there?

oaroloye:
SHALOM!



Then what are you doing HERE?

Why don't you two just get a room?



Seen by whom?

Only Sinners have to fear Hell,



Why is it appaling?

Where did you learn that The Creator was Benevolent?

Is it just for Him to be benevolent to those who do not deserve it?



But you said that Hell Firer Doctrine is seen as intrinsic to Christendom.

Do you really know what you are talking about?

^{Tartarus, Ygdrassil, Hell Fire Jahannam, e.t.c. are abhorrent concepts used to scare morally vulnerable minds into seeing the benefits of a goodly life.}

TARTARUS is the Greek Abyss under HADES, the Realm of the Dead.

JAHANNAM is the Islamic Hell.

YGGDRASSIL is the Tree that connects the Nine Realms in the Norse Concept of Creation.

It is not an abhorrent concept.



THIS ESTABLISHES THAT YOU PROBABLY DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.



I DOUBT THAT VERY MUCH.

You have no Direct Knowledge of anything.

You think that the Ancients who Taught this just made stuff up?

There is nothing absurd about HELL, nor HELL FIRE.

FIRE and WATER are useful for Spiritual Containment and Conduits.

Hell is necessary to contain those few Evil Souls that survive the death of their Physical Shells and keep them from pulling Evil Stunts, like causing Fatal Accidents in order to feed off of the Spiritual Energies released by Grief and Death. Also, Said Spirits can possibly seize the Bodies of the Newborn, and deny them life, taking their bodies to live on, unjustly.

Why is it that the only people who blaspheme God for creating Hell are not even qualified to go there?

lordnicklaus:


Yggdrassil connects the nine worlds including hell, I do not know the Norse version of Hell, so I rather picked Yggdrassil. Also, please do not quote me or I wouldn't hesistate to click the report link cause this thread is meant for only me and johnydon22 to discuss.

johnydon22:


Helheimr is the Norse underworld from whence the English word "Hell" is derived..

johnydon22:
Lordnicklaus please open the ground clearly for our discussion - on what premis is our debate based?

lordnicklaus:

I just want to show how the Bible doesn't vouch for eternal cremation or roasting.
The book or Revelation has been taken out of context and so has the Bible teachings as regards the afterlife. Now, other Christians support this erroneous teaching by quoting Mark 7:43-48 which was a later addition to the text of Mark. I will like you to table the verses you see as supporting the abhorrent concept and I would show how it is not.

johnydon22:


One thing is certain here and that is "You as a person find the very idea of hell repulsive and disturbing"

But let's be honest here the bible explicitly mentions a place of eternal punishment, you may try to rationalize these potions of the bible with your own interpretations [which is exactly the reason why we have almost 40,000 sects in Christianity]

Men always trying to dilute the very extreme measures of the bible with their own reason and opinion which gives rise to distinct interpretations for one potion of the bible.

Because we know if Christians were not subtle as to dump literal followership of the bible, they'd be more dangerous and extreme than muslims - but to this Saint Augustine once bemoaned.

"Anyman that believes a part of the scripture and reject the others, do not believe the scripture but himself"

The place of burning torment as a punishment for transgressors [Lake of fire, hell fire] is an intricate part of both the bible [NT] and the fundamental Christian doctrine..

You may argue that it never was part of the attributes of Yahweh as a Judaic deity and that'd be correct but as a Christian Deity, hell fire is a very intrinsic parcel of yahweh.

johnydon22:


One thing is certain here and that is "You as a person find the very idea of hell repulsive and disturbing"

But let's be honest here the bible explicitly mentions a place of eternal punishment, you may try to rationalize these potions of the bible with your own interpretations [which is exactly the reason why we have almost 40,000 sects in Christianity]

Men always trying to dilute the very extreme measures of the bible with their own reason and opinion which gives rise to distinct interpretations for one potion of the bible.

Because we know if Christians were not subtle as to dump literal followership of the bible, they'd be more dangerous and extreme than muslims - but to this Saint Augustine once bemoaned.

"Anyman that believes a part of the scripture and reject the others, do not believe the scripture but himself"

The place of burning torment as a punishment for transgressors [Lake of fire, hell fire] is an intricate part of both the bible [NT] and the fundamental Christian doctrine..

You may argue that it never was part of the attributes of Yahweh as a Judaic deity and that'd be correct but as a Christian Deity, hell fire is a very intrinsic parcel of yahweh.

lordnicklaus:


Yggdrassil connects the nine worlds including hell, I do not know the Norse version of Hell, so I rather picked Yggdrassil.

Also, please do not quote me or I wouldn't hesistate to click the report link cause this thread is meant for only me and johnydon22 to discuss.

oaroloye:
SHALOM- NO, SCRATCH THAT- NO "SHALOM" FOR YOU.



You were too lazy to GOOGLE or WIKIPEDIA the FACTS- so you just picked FALSE INFORMATION?



Then you THREATEN me?

What are you going to say- that you violated RULE 8: DON'T POST FALSE INFORMATION ON NAIRALAND- then, when somebody helpfully corrected you, you THREATENED them?

You say you can talk garbage about my Religious Beliefs, and I can't speak up, because you say so?

Where do you think you are- the Soviet Union?

Maybe you need to consult Google Earth to confirm your location, as well as their Search Engine, to confirm your information.

oaroloye:
SHALOM- NO, SCRATCH THAT- NO "SHALOM" FOR YOU.



You were too lazy to GOOGLE or WIKIPEDIA the FACTS- so you just picked FALSE INFORMATION?



Then you THREATEN me?

What are you going to say- that you violated RULE 8: DON'T POST FALSE INFORMATION ON NAIRALAND- then, when somebody helpfully corrected you, you THREATENED them?

You say you can talk garbage about my Religious Beliefs, and I can't speak up, because you say so?

Where do you think you are- the Soviet Union?

Maybe you need to consult Google Earth to confirm your location, as well as their Search Engine, to confirm your information.

lordnicklaus:


The said reference to hell in the bible are actually additions by editors for reasons best known to them. While the book of Revelations is filled with weird symbols which are not to be taken literally.

Metaphorism or poetry is a concrete part of prophecy.

Revelation does not reveal eternal torture but rather a final condemnation or a state of eternal non-existence. The Lake of fire is interpreted by this prophetic text itself as being "the second death". In the text, the only people thrown are those whose names are not found in "the book of life", hence are not worthy of life but will be blotted out of existence by "the second death". In the Greek New Testament, the word translated as "hell" is a word of Semitic origin. The word is "gehenna" which is the Aramaic form of the Hebrew "gehhinnom" and which means "valley of Hinnom". According to the Jews, dead bodies that are thrown into Gehenna are not worthy of resurrection, hence Jesus used "gehenna" to refer to non-existence or total death.
Besides, Yahweh once told Jeremiah,
"They did build the high grounds of Tophet which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to pass their sons and daughters in the fire, something I never commanded neither did it come into my heart" - Jeremiah 7:31.

One mistake Christians make is failing to compare each portions of the Bible. The Jews passed their children in fire and Yahweh never commanded such and so, He is clearly against cremation or eternal punishment by fire.

lordnicklaus:


Whatever! Just scram out of my thread for the last time and I promise you in God's name that if you post one more thing again, I will click the report link.

johnydon22:


To this i agree, one of the last books to be added to the cannon from an anonymous authour who borrowed the apocryptic style of Daniel to warn the christians of his time of Emperor Demitia he code named 666 [Christians were under heavy persecution from emperor Demitia] and also portray a happy ending after the trial and hedious punishment for the persecutors and those who fall out of faith from their influence.

Which makes it vague and ambigious - anyone can actually do it ..

I can in fact borror the argument of Thomas Paine [Age of Reason] and argue that prophecy means exactly a different thing in biblical terms [As songs, poems, music] from how it is used today...



You see just like i pointed out - in order to take Hell out of Yahweh's character you must first severe NT [Christian] yahweh from OT[Judaic] yahweh but clearly are almost unrecognizable.

Like you rightly pointed out, Christians always ignore the old testament in many doctrinal matters - that is why Christianity ended up creating a totally different deity from the Judaic [old testament] Yahweh.

They hoped to make the deity less primitive and savagery as seen in the old testament but by putting [Hell] in the spice they ended up making a far more disturbing character.

Let me continue to show how [hell fire] of eternal punishment is totally biblical [At least New Testamnt Biblical] - let me take you to the book of Luke..

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man, Jesus painted a picture of a punishment of sins by fire and a reward at Abraham's bossom Luke 16 :19–31

Let us now pay a visit to the book of Relevation

(Revelation 14:9-11).
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man
worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his
hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out
without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name"

Pay very close attention to the red part, not only are they going to be punished by fire but it will be forever, in fact Jesus and the angels are apparently going to be watching the eternal horror show..

Even the supposedly meek and humanitarian Jesus also often laid out explicit punishment plans for those who loose out of his earthly ministry.

(Mark 9:43-48).
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life
maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be
quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched . And if thy
foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having
two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where
their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched . And if thine eye offend thee,
pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye,
than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and
the fire is not quenched "

You see even here Jesus not only referred to hell as a place of fire, he also affirmed the eternal nature of it's flames and even added some extra twists for maximum horror effect [worms]..

Jesus wasn't so meek, humble and kind after all . . LOL..

Pardon - so brother, it is still very clear that place of eternal torture is like a butter in the very bread of not only Christianity, it's deity but the bible [New Testament] - therefore my brother with the above points up there, it is safe to say that Hell is Biblical.

lordnicklaus:

Exactly what I am totally trying to point out. The portion of Mark you quoted was actually a later addition which was not found in the oldest manuscript of Mark…
The scribe who added it was probably influenced by Greek philosophy.

Even in Revelations in which addition was prohibited, we can also see traces of additions and interpolations by considering different Bible translations.

Remember, I said Revelations is metaphorical, the beast is therefore symbolic of world powers and being thrown into the lake of fire burning with brimstone is also symbolic of non-existence or death-like inactivity. The torment is not a literal torment but a symbolic one.

Even the story of the rich man and Lazarus is a parable and I recall Jesus said in a verse "That which I tell you, I have told you in figurative language". Scribes who adhered to the debasing concept of Tartarus have tried to reconcile Greek culture with Judaic philosophy and thus, you can see a taint of the rather debasing, appaling and horrendous concept of a confine for subjection to infernal punishment for earthly wrongs. And the teachers of the Christian sacred text readily regurgitate such philosophy to get the masses to behave and infact it has proven quite effective than the promise of eternal bliss.

johnydon22 post=4
9967523:
The catholic church recognize this as Pius fraud, doesn't this make the bible more of a fraudulent book than one containing truth?



The symbolic nature of the apocrypha is almost self explanatory, when ever you see "the lamb" it is talking about Jesus and so it goes.

Then the explanations to these apocryphal language is where i think your generalization emerges, the verses is almost sel explanatory.

and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever:

it is highly unlikely that the lamb and his angels will be watching the inexistence of those with the mark of the beast forever - that completely rules out the idea o inexistence in the contex of that verses..

You'll have to severe the verse from it's originl intent if you aim to derive a different symbolical meaning from it's contents.



The New Testament was heavily influenced by Greek culture, philosophy and language - in act it was written in Greek, so if the argument is based on Greek influence on the addition of hell that is correct but whether this addition of hell to Yahweic Character is biblical it sorely is.

If you try to void this and maintain hell is allegorical then automatically heaven becomes so too because as we always see both are always used side by side.

If this is so then biblically as you are interpreting "there is no hell neither is there an actual heaven" [this murders the very foundation of Christian theology..]

And if we then take this meaning as you'd employ then hell fire means eternal inexistence while heaven means eternal existence [no matter the condition or place].i doubt if this is the context of these biblical constructs.

lordnicklaus:
One thing to note is that for we to believe in the idea of an eternal bliss in heaven, we would also have to believe in the destruction of the earth which is totally against bible teaching. The earth would only undergo a reformation. So, there are odds of everyone going to a place in the sky, though only a selected few will while the rest would enjoy bliss in earthly paradise.

Copies of biblical text were subject to additions by frauds who see the bible as not agreeing with their doctrine and so, they have to make it so. But with the discovery of older extant manuscripts, we are able to know what was originally not part of the text. For example, the event of the adulteress encountering Jesus was not originally a part of John's gospel but was a later addition to the text and so is Mark 16:9-20.

People have tried to make sure the bible supports their doctrine when it was at odds with them. Now as regards Revelations, the beast is not a person but a confluence of world empires and so being thrown into the lake of fire in presence of the Lamb means total inexistence for as long as the Lamb rules.

johnydon22:
This is quite similar to Jehovah witness doctrine on this, so you do not also think there is an actual heaven for human souls only a selected few.

144,000 from the tribes of Israel to be precise?

Do you then hold a transcention into earthly paradise by resurrection and not a continious transcension of a spirit from a body?

Just like Mary Magdalene being recognized as a prostitute was also a later addition - Hhmmm curious.

But the fact remains that these texts are found in the bible today, almost half of the epistles attributed to Paul has been found to be pious fraud rather, does this void their authority in the biblical canoon and doctrinal matters?

As a matter of fact most books in the New Testament are anonymous, some even claimed a false authorship like the revelation, does this void their usefulness in the theological foundation of Christianity or does it affect their usage in doctrinal issues?



Some interpretation of the Beast also recognize it as Emperors which gave credence to the code text the author used in encouraging Christians of that time who were under persecution from Emperor Demitia to be stead fast in their convictions and not fall for the whims of the beast.

The verse i quoted stated in the beginning

" And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man
worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in
his hand."

This spells it out the punishment for the "person" who recieves the mark of the beast not the beast itself.

johnydon22:


One thing is certain here and that is "You as a person find the very idea of hell repulsive and disturbing"

But let's be honest here the bible explicitly mentions a place of eternal punishment, you may try to rationalize these potions of the bible with your own interpretations [which is exactly the reason why we have almost 40,000 sects in Christianity]

Men always trying to dilute the very extreme measures of the bible with their own reason and opinion which gives rise to distinct interpretations for one potion of the bible.

Because we know if Christians were not subtle as to dump literal followership of the bible, they'd be more dangerous and extreme than muslims - but to this Saint Augustine once bemoaned.

"Anyman that believes a part of the scripture and reject the others, do not believe the scripture but himself"

The place of burning torment as a punishment for transgressors [Lake of fire, hell fire] is an intricate part of both the bible [NT] and the fundamental Christian doctrine..

You may argue that it never was part of the attributes of Yahweh as a Judaic deity and that'd be correct but as a Christian Deity, hell fire is a very intrinsic parcel of yahweh.