This thread reeks of nothing but ignorance and it's a perfect example of the failures of military rule.
The military destroyed this country. Simple and short. No singular real developmental factor can be attributed to military rule in Nigeria..

First of all who fought for independence? Were they men with guns or bright young men without guns?

Nigeria was one of the most promising countries after independence until the military struck and the country has never remained the same, in fact the country is dead.

That civilian governments have been unable to get it right is the fault of the military. The military killed Nigeria and handed it over as a corpse to civilians. Education was dead, health was dead, economy was dead, infrastructure was dead, security was dead, accountability was dead.

Sweetguy25:


This is nothing but an ignorant lie.

Can you explain please?... It's not enough to just say a statement is a lie without backing up your statement.

Take a look at Botswana and other Sub Saharan African countries that never experienced military rule. They are more developed than Nigeria and other countries that experienced military rule today.

obailala:
You can hardly find any developed country globally that became developed under a democracy.

I am beginning to wonder if we must practice democracy just because Amelika says so.

Can't we develope our own model that will work for us?

obailala:
Explain

You can check the top 50 countries in the HDI and tell me how many countries in the list were developed by undemocratic and military government.

richidinho:
Without borrowing up to $5bn, and crude oil price less than $20, were they really corrupt?

Aluminum Smelter Company of Nigeria - Ikot Abasi

Iron Ore mining company -Itakpe, kogi state

Ajaokuta steel company, Ajaokuta- kogi state

Nigeria Liquified Natural Gas Company - Bonny Island

4 Refineries

National theatre - Lagos

28, 000 duplexes estate, Gwarinpa-Abuja

Specialist hospitals in each state of Nigeria

Festac Estate in Lagos

Tin Can Wharf - Lagos

Such amount spent to move Hqtrs to Abuja

3rd mainland bridge

These things where built by our colonial masters. Our leaders has actually added nothing tangible to our development.

Lalasticlala please don't move this beautiful thread to fp. It promotes those guys in Khaki to come. We are indirectly inviting them back but democracy is still the best

Sweetguy25:


You can check the top 50 countries in the HDI and tell me how many countries in the list were developed by undemocratic and military government.

I will just take a jump to Singapore; this is one of the countries which became developed pretty recently under the rule of Lee Kuan Yew. I suppose in your imagination you think LKY was a democrat?.....

I see several countries on your list which practiced purely monarchical systems until recently and you suppose those systems were democratic when then got civilised?

See countries like Germany dancing in your list, I'm sure autocratic iron fisted leaders like Adolph Hitler and his saintly NAZI party were benevolent democrats right?

You probably ought to go back and read what I wrote properly. I didnt say the countries are undemocratic today, I said they were undemocratic when they got developed.

soulpeppersoup:


These things where built by our colonial masters. Our leaders has actually added nothing tangible to our development.

You are very very very wrong

TonyeBarcanista:
Don't mind Nigerians. The beauty of democracy is that the masses will always bear the consequences or reward of their action at the poll.

Are you really believing the masses has had any reasonable input in electioneering in Nigeria.

But Are these not the same military administrators then that are the same guys controlling our political.......is one of them not the president now.
Na the citizens I blame,I think the govs are another joke

Proudlyngwa:

Are you really believing the masses has had any reasonable input in electioneering in Nigeria.

100% Positive bro....

TonyeBarcanista:
100% Positive bro....

Count, Abia state our.
The elections that brought T.A orji in, I was at the p.u waiting to vote and results were being announced.
Obasanjos tenure second term, I witnessed same in Lagos.
We all know rivers election had a very low turn out, but had bogus results, so which is 100% positive

Proudlyngwa:

Count, Abia state our.
The elections that brought T.A orji in, I was at the p.u waiting to vote and results were being announced.

So what did you do about it? Did you offer to present yourself as witness at the tribunal?

Obasanjos tenure second term, I witnessed same in Lagos.

Well maybe you have a point but did you help by assisting at the tribunal?

We all know rivers election had a very low turn out, but had bogus results, so which is 100% positive

The masses know what to do to insist on having their way. What has been their attitude towards eventual result?

Akinwerndey:
US UK China Germany South korea Singapore Norway Sweden et al became develop under what system of government? The military? No under democratic rule. That's the fact! Why Nigeria is different is because we vote mediocres and nt leaders, wE vote looters and not builders, we vote destroyers and nt keepers, we vote bandits and not protectors of our interests.... Thank you!

Are china and UK democracies bros? Do u know that in the event of a hung parliarment the queen decides who becomes the PM so is that democracy? China is a communist country. All of russia's military advancement was achieved under what? Is russia a democracy in the real sense of the word? What about U.A.E ? Dubai we are all going to today became what it is under what? How bout libya, how is it doing now wit all the democracy noise NATO and allies came with. How bout iraq ? Is it better now ? .infact the almighty USA is the biggest debtor in the world. EU as a whole with the exception of germany all the rest are f-uckin debtors so u see there's no PERFECT system and african like arabs need strong hands not petty systems that work for caucasians. We hav our history and they have theirs. Democracy has failed us completely

zeestunner:


Are china and UK democracies bros? Do u know that in the event of a hung parliarment the queen decides who becomes the PM so is that democracy? China is a communist country. All of russia's military advancement was achieved under what? Is russia a democracy in the real sense of the word? What about U.A.E ? Dubai we are all going to today became what it is under what? How bout libya, how is it doing now wit all the democracy noise NATO and allies came with. How bout iraq ? Is it better now ? .infact the almighty USA is the biggest debtor in the world. EU as a whole with the exception of germany all the rest are f-uckin debtors so u see there's no PERFECT system and african like arabs need strong hands not petty systems that work for caucasians. We hav our history and they have theirs. Democracy has failed us completely

are U serious? Kai I can't argue with you because I'll end up dulling my brain! Do U know what is called socialist democracy? Do the presidents of Russia and china put themselves in power without elections being conducted from the parliament or even the public in the case of russia? And for your information the monarch in the UK is ceremonial and they have less powers... My friend get your facts right please.

obailala:
The nations you mentioned did not become developed today, I wasn't referring to the system of government they practice today. Those countries you mentioned have been developed and civilised for over a century. Using Germany as a case study, I suppose Germany under the iron claws of Adolph Hitler and his NAZI party is part of the governments you refer to as a democracy right?.. Or probably a Monarchical system practiced in france or the UK in the past is what you refer to as democracy?

was Hitler elected or nt? Did you know when the parliament seize power from the royal family in england and made it mere ceremonial? Or was it the monarchy system that was in place during the industrial revolution? Abeg bros no feed trash I no wan chop!

obailala:
I will just take a jump to Singapore; this is one of the countries which became developed pretty recently under the rule of Lee Kuan Yew. I suppose in your imagination you think LKY was a democrat?.....

I see several countries on your list which practiced purely monarchical systems until recently and you suppose those systems were democratic when then got civilised?

See countries like Germany dancing in your list, I'm sure autocratic iron fisted leaders like Adolph Hitler and his saintly NAZI party were benevolent democrats right?

You probably ought to go back and read what I wrote properly. I didnt say the countries are undemocratic today, I said they were undemocratic when they got developed.

You don start again.

When we talk about modern civilization, we're actually talking about the Second Industrial Revolution that started in late 1800s and entered into the early 1900s. Before then, we had the first wave (First Industrial Revolution), but it couldn't compare to the Second as it wasn't exactly widespread.

It was during the Second Industrial Revolution that most of Europe dumped absolute monarchy to adopt constitutional monarchy with parliamentary democracy.

In fact, in the 1840s, Norway (#1), Denmark (#4), and Netherlands (#5) made the switch from absolute monarchy to constitutional monarchy with parliamentary democracy.

Australia (#2) and New Zealand (#9) practice a similar system of constitutional monarchy with parliamentary democracy which they assumed after the British left.

Switzerland (#3) looked up to American values to draft a federal constitution to become a federal state in the mid 1800s. They revised the constitution again in the 1890s to make it a direct democracy (practically the best form of democracy on the planet). Thus they were well positioned to benefit from the Second Industrial Revolution.

Germany (#6) was an antithesis to most of Western Europe. Because when the rest of Europe was taking in democracy, they were still trying to find unity. Unity came late in the late 1800s when the Second Industrial Revolution was underway. But they didn't cool off immediately. It took a sound beating in the First World War and the German revolution in the late years of the first decade of the 1900s for Germany to dish their monarchy for the Weismic Republic. The Nazi party hijacked the system and failed couple of years later to win the WW2. After that, Germany was a mess with the Allied Forces occupying their land and them having plenty of debts to pay (like Japan). With the cold war starting to brew, Germany was a proxy state for the rising animosity between two former friends becoming foes (the US and the Soviet Union). The Berlin Wall came up, and while West Germany (the Federal Republic of Germany) became a democracy and flourished (in part thanks to excellent leadership of the first two chancellors and the well-administrated Marshall Plan), the same could not be said about East Germany choked by Communism. Therefore, one of the vital reasons for Germany rising from a pariah state with resounding humiliation in the 1940s to the largest economy in Europe (and de facto leader of EU) beyond the industrious nature of the Germans is DEMOCRACY.

Ireland (#6--tie with Germany) is a full-on parliamentary democracy actually called Republic of Ireland. It should not be confused with Northern Ireland, which is a part of the UK.

The United States (# had the civil war in the mid 1800s. But ended in just in time to take good advantage of the Second Industrial Revolution to boost their economy and cement their place as a global power. Every of American high-end industrialists we can't seem to get enough of owed their success to the Second Industrial Revolution. Cornelius Vanderbilt, John D. Rockefeller, and Andrew Carnegie led progess in railroad, petroleum, and steel industries. J.P. Morgan played a notable role in Banking. Edison and Tesla undertook the widespread distribution of electricity to industry, homes, and for street lightiing. Henry Ford revolutionized the automotive industry. All of these happened in the late 1800s and early 1900s. That's when real development happened in America and across the world.

Canada (#9) attained self-governance for most of their affairs from the UK thanks in major part to the Constitution Act in 1867. They quickly adopted the parliamentary system and although, they still had to wait for the Statute of Westminster in 1931 for full autonomy and the Constitution Act of 1982 to end all ties with the UK, they had already used Democracy to take full advantage of the Second Industrial Revolution and the rapid development of their neighbor the US to become a civilized and industrialized country.

Now that I've shown you that all of the first 10 were actually under democracy when they got civilized, can you kindly stick your failed, myopic assertion where the sun does not shine.

Any country can modify their type of democracy. Scandinavian Europe do not want to do away with their monarchy completely, so they modified it to become constitutional and added parliamentary democracy where the parliament is the head of Government. Switzerland made theirs a direct democracy where individual citizens can directly affect the law and vote on issues directly.

There are different forms of democracy and every country is using that which fits them most. Nigeria's current form does not fit us at all. Switzerland calls their administrative divisions Cantons. Canada call theirs Provinces. America call theirs states. In Switzerland, each canton has its own constitution, its own government, and courts.

True Federal Democracy in Nigeria is what will work. We can modify ours to be anywhere from four to six regions (call it whatever we want) with sub-regions (we can call them states or whatever) with a decentralized government at the center that only coordinates things, maintain security of our sovereignty, and maintains foreign policy for the polity. While the regions get full resource control and contribute to the FG.

The problem is that people like you and your political affiliation has called all form of restructuring treasonable and do not want dialog so that we can actually chart a course that'd suit Nigeria. Instead, you guys actually want Nigeria to be like Chad, Cameroon, Zimbabwe and elsewhere where there is dictatorship.

It is crass, stupid, and shameful.

So the next time you guys speak with glee about Military rule, you guys should know that nothing on this planet can make us go back to our vomit. It is gone for good, and anyone who gets elected on a democratic platform and tries to rear that ugly dictator-ish tendency will meet his doom sooner than later.

It's either we make democracy work in Nigeria or we go our separate ways.

Even communism is better than dictatorship.

-Lord

Akinwerndey:
are U serious? Kai I can't argue with you because I'll end up dulling my brain! Do U know what is called socialist democracy? Do the presidents of Russia and china put themselves in power without elections being conducted from the parliament or even the public in the case of russia? And for your information the monarch in the UK is ceremonial and they have less powers... My friend get your facts right please.

Look at the bigger picture dumbo. U are the one dulling my brain anyways I don't do insults buh since u decended this low I won't indulge u any longer so enjoy the rest of ur day

zeestunner:



Look at the bigger picture dumbo. U are the one dulling my brain anyways I don't do insults buh since u decended this low I won't indulge u any longer so enjoy the rest of ur day

abeg shift!

zeestunner:


Are china and UK democracies bros? Do u know that in the event of a hung parliarment the queen decides who becomes the PM so is that democracy? China is a communist country. All of russia's military advancement was achieved under what? Is russia a democracy in the real sense of the word? What about U.A.E ? Dubai we are all going to today became what it is under what? How bout libya, how is it doing now wit all the democracy noise NATO and allies came with. How bout iraq ? Is it better now ? .infact the almighty USA is the biggest debtor in the world. EU as a whole with the exception of germany all the rest are f-uckin debtors so u see there's no PERFECT system and african like arabs need strong hands not petty systems that work for caucasians. We hav our history and they have theirs. Democracy has failed us completely

If Democracy has failed you, you can leave the country (I'm quoting Buhari here) to any of the other 17 countries in Africa where dictatorship is rife.

Nonsense!

You talk about China, Russia, UAE (three nations) when the entire Europe, North America, most of South Africa, most of Asia are under democracy and prospering. Africa's top 5 economies are all democracies.

So you can port to North Korea if you like, leave Nigeria's democracy for us.

-Lord

LordAdam:


If Democracy has failed you, you can leave the country (I'm quoting Buhari here) to any of the other 17 countries in Africa where dictatorship is rife.

Nonsense!

You talk about China, Russia, UAE (three nations) when the entire Europe, North America, most of South Africa, most of Asia are under democracy and prospering. Africa's top 5 economies are all democracies.

So you can port to North Korea if you like, leave Nigeria's democracy for us.
-Lord

Don't get me wrong am not saying democracy is bad buh at this point its has not done much for us. With regards to the EU prospering bros re-evaluate ur reasoning. The EU is seriously in debt wit the exception of germany. Is that wat u call prosperity? Do u know the debt profile of america? Of france? Greece is practically in surgery and u talking bout prosperity. Show me ur so called democratic african nations doing as well as dubai or kuwait. South africa u talked about how far wit zuma? Like I said no system is perfect so let stop making it look like I said dictatorship is better. I stand by my word it failed nigerians yea it may hav worked in some countries buh here there's a long long way to go

LordAdam:


If Democracy has failed you, you can leave the country (I'm quoting Buhari here) to any of the other 17 countries in Africa where dictatorship is rife.

Nonsense!

You talk about China, Russia, UAE (three nations) when the entire Europe, North America, most of South Africa, most of Asia are under democracy and prospering. Africa's top 5 economies are all democracies.

So you can port to North Korea if you like, leave Nigeria's democracy for us.
-Lord

Don't get me wrong am not saying democracy is bad buh at this point its has not done much for us. With regards to the EU prospering bros re-evaluate ur reasoning. The EU is seriously in debt wit the exception of germany. Is that wat u call prosperity? Do u know the debt profile of america? Of france? Greece is practically in surgery and u talking bout prosperity. Show me ur so called democratic african nations doing as well as dubai or kuwait. South africa u talked about how far wit zuma? Like I said no system is perfect so let stop making it look like I said dictatorship is better. I stand by my word it failed nigerians yea it may hav worked in some countries buh here there's a long long way to go and pls if u gon qoute me make it civil k I don't do insults. Tanx

zeestunner:


Don't get me wrong am not saying democracy is bad buh at this point its has not done much for us. With regards to the EU prospering bros re-evaluate ur reasoning. The EU is seriously in debt wit the exception of germany. Is that wat u call prosperity? Do u know the debt profile of america? Of france? Greece is practically in surgery and u talking bout prosperity. Show me ur so called democratic african nations doing as well as dubai or kuwait. South africa u talked about how far wit zuma? Like I said no system is perfect so let stop making it look like I said dictatorship is better. I stand by my word it failed nigerians yea it may hav worked in some countries buh here there's a long long way to go

Oga, the Chinese and Japanese cannot ask for their money back, because the world economy will collapse.

What will happen at most is that the Western world will default on their debt, most of it will be written off and the borrowing will start again as feverishly as before.

The most important thing however is that the West has used the money to develop their economy, military, and build their influence to a point where they creditors can't say sh**.

It's the cycle of the world, it has never changed. Empires borrow too much, they default (in the past this often accompanied the fall of the empire but right now that is not feasible without taking down most of the world's economy with them), and creditors borrow again to another rising empire who borrows too much again.

You give democracy 17 years, and you do know we are NOT practicing the optimal form of democracy for a country like Nigeria and you've already given up on democracy...

In the 16 years of democracy in the fourth republic, the Nigerian economy has grown faster than during any period in our short history. Check all the indices.


So, speak for yourself!

Democracy has not failed Nigeria. It is Nigeria that has failed to take full advantage of democracy. Democracy in the first republic was the best thing to have happened to Nigeria, but it was cut short by the military. Imagine what Nigeria would be with each region managing their own resources and there's healthy competition?

Just imagine!

-Lord

OlujobaSamuel:
there is also the issue of human right abuse, except cases sponsored by the state, the police or any security agency will not abuse you for whatsoever, nothing like roger that, because the process of getting punished isnt the same with democracy that's cumbersome, and we have also witnessed numerous cases of abuse during democracy here in nigeria.

Human rights abuses have not ceased in the last 17 years of democracy, rather they have metamorphosized such that now the political class and their croonies can use the might of the state to crush those without power into submision.

Military generals still exist and continue to abuse us the “bloody civikians” ; and police officers continue to harass unabashed

extra judicial killings have increase per anum compared to the times of Abacha , the number of corrupted and corruptable individuals has ballooned out of control

We now have an assembly of koli koli and epa eaters who congregate for 180 days a year while receiving seating allowance and pay packages non relatable to their national worth

We have more MDAs and ministries than is required; I don't think Nigeria is ready for democracy the way we have it we have just got going and we already have big goverment problems , if we had a military council with a single merged parliament , state administrators and state council with LGA and ward councillors we would be better served

LordAdam:


Oga, the Chinese and Japanese cannot ask for their money back, because the world economy will collapse.

What will happen at most is that the Western world will default on their debt, most of it will be written off and the borrowing will start again as feverishly as before.

The most important thing however is that the West has used the money to develop their economy, military, and build their influence to a point where they creditors can't say sh**.

It's the cycle of the world, it has never changed. Empires borrow too much, they default (in the past this often accompanied the fall of the empire but right now that is not feasible without taking down most of the world's economy with them), and creditors borrow again to another rising empire who borrows too much again.

You give democracy 17 years, and you do know we are NOT practicing the optimal form of democracy for a country like Nigeria and you've already given up on democracy...

In the 16 years of democracy in the fourth republic, the Nigerian economy has grown faster than during any period in our short history. Check all the indices.


So, speak for yourself!

Democracy has not failed Nigeria. It is Nigeria that has failed to take full advantage of democracy. Democracy in the first republic was the best thing to have happened to Nigeria, but it was cut short by the military. Imagine what Nigeria would be with each region managing their own resources and there's healthy competition?

Just imagine!

-Lord

You've been watching too much Trump rallies; how else can you have come to the conclusion that USA would default on it's debt to China and the notion that somehow the USA is too big to fail. That economy has already failed once and that may still repeat itself.

sweetgala:


Human rights abuses have not ceased in the last 17 years of democracy, rather they have metamorphosized such that now the political class and their croonies can use the might of the state to crush those without power into submision.

Military generals still exist and continue to abuse us the “bloody civikians” ; and police officers continue to harass unabashed

extra judicial killings have increase per anum compared to the times of Abacha , the number of corrupted and corruptable individuals has ballooned out of control

We now have an assembly of koli koli and epa eaters who congregate for 180 days a year while receiving seating allowance and pay packages non relatable to their national worth

We have more MDAs and ministries than is required; I don't think Nigeria is ready for democracy the way we have it we have just got going and we already have big goverment problems , if we had a military council with a single merged parliament , state administrators and state council with LGA and ward councillors we would be better served

abeg leave those wey dey replace autocracy with devil name, anytime i'm enroute Island, Apapa, Surulere axis in Lagos, i go just smile curse those wey give us this fake system. lcda election na war, if you no be boss in military, stealing na taboo, in democracy, everyone can steal, autocracy; if you are not getting it right, person fit throw you out in hours, but democracy, removal of the president will take at least a month.
i dont know why we cant modify our autocracy to prevent abuse and forbids any decree that will override some of the t&c.
in costa rica, it is forbidden for any president or mp to try form a military force, till date, the law still stand.
if it's proven that autocracy or monarchy go help us beta, make we let go of this fake system abeg

sweetgala:


You've been watching too much Trump rallies; how else can you have come to the conclusion that USA would default on it's debt to China and the notion that somehow the USA is too big to fail. That economy has already failed once and that may still repeat itself.

Where did I give the impression that the USA is too big to fail?

And how do you think that the US would be able to pay back over 11 trillion dollars in debt?

-Lord

LordAdam:


Where did I give the impression that the USA is too big to fail?

And how do you think that the US would be able to pay back over 11 trillion dollars in debt?

-Lord

They'll never be able to pay it back, but they would never get a debt forgiveness off china, NEVER !

sweetgala:


They'll never be able to pay it back, but they would never get a debt forgiveness off china, NEVER !

You talk as if you are the Chinese Premier!

-Lord

LordAdam:


You talk as if you are the Chinese Premier!

-Lord

Like china would just wake up one day and give their number 1 competition free 11 trillion.

sweetgala:


Like china would just wake up one day and give their number 1 competition free 11 trillion.

It wouldn't be free. The US will have to make some deals that'd make Lincoln roll in his grave, but they'd get a pass nonetheless.

If you don't think so, then pray tell, what do you think will happen?

-Lord