4kings:


This universe has a beginning.
The ultimate dimension where it came from has to be eternal.

In otherwords that ultimate dimension wherewith it has evolved is only a frame of coincidence like a frame of reference in getting positions measured.If you agree so,then that ultimate dimension is just man-made and not actually the beginning as foremost put.

MrMontella:

the defects i listed/stated...are not caused by human interference.....
On your car issue...
You ignored my question on bacteria...thats a starting point to the car.....
On the statistics of the cars...
The number of birth defects are high...
Too high for a designer...
Unless a poor one...Nature

When something complex is produced and it has a defent how does it prove it was never created by an intelligent being? And what evidence do you have to show that birth defects are not caused by external influences and not by the creator making a mistake? Like I said before, when the condition is perfectly right without external influences, everything will always behave exactly the way it was made to behave.

Of cause an intelligent being is behind every bacterial fission. Whatever made it possible for human cells to multiply to complex and well arranged structures is the same force that makes it possible for other kinds of life living cells to multiply. They are powered by the same supernatural force.

MrMontella:

how do you know this?

And on time having a beginning...how do you know time started with our universe?
Time is just a measure of events you know

Ya, time is measure of events, and this event starts with the big bang.

I said "this universe" has a beginning; so when I used the word "time", I am referring only to "this universe", and not the dimension it evolved from.

DrLazDevitan:


In otherwords that ultimate dimension wherewith it has evolved is only a frame of coincidence like a frame of reference in getting positions measured.If you agree so,then that ultimate dimension is just man-made and not actually the beginning as foremost put.

What do u mean by "frame of coincidence being manmade".

By the way take note of the word "Ultimate"

promisechuks:

you would have sent your praise to the transparent unicorn. who cares about your delusion?

you apparently do judging by your reply

4kings:

What do u mean by "frame of coincidence being manmade".

By the way take note of the word "Ultimate"

Simple! The only way to learn the beginning of times is to state a frame of relativeness.This frame is not in itself,it is ours.

I am carefree of the word ''Ultimate'',since it can't be any better than the Principle of Causality,which in principle is far richer to any form of dimension.

4kings:

Ya, time is measure of events, and this event starts with the big bang.

I said "this universe" has a beginning; so when I used the word "time", I am referring only to "this universe", and not the dimension it evolved from.

The mention is of an assumption of a man whom has travelled half his trip just to find out he has either lost memory of the path to his way home or lost the reminiscence of his home.

If you exclude time to this universe only then you are only helping yourself not all of us.

DrLazDevitan:


The mention is of an assumption of a man whom has travelled half his trip just to find out he has either lost I of the path to his way home or lost the reminiscence of his home.

If you exclude time to this universe only then you are only helping yourself not all of us.

As indicated in my post, I was being subjective.

DrLazDevitan:

Simple! The only way to learn the beginning of times is to state a frame of relativeness.This frame is not in itself,it is ours.

I am carefree of the word ''Ultimate'',since it can't be any better than the Principle of Causality,which in principle is far richer to any form of dimension.

This frame can't be applied to this "Ultimate dimension".
That's why I said it's "eternal".
You can look at it as a rolling circle.

4kings:

As indicated in my post, I was being subjective.


This frame can't be applied to this "Ultimate dimension".
That's why I said it's "eternal".
You can look at it as a rolling circle.

You are abit confused.If you argue there is beginning of time,then there should be a frame which events is measured whether it is eternal or not.For the fact that it is eternal does not remove that frame,the problem is that you and I don't know where that frame is.
Your Ultimate dimension is just a philosophical verbal analysis of Principle of Causality-to causes and effect,there is no end on sliding back.

If you were presented with a circle(rolling or not),in how many patterns will you measured time?

To go over this,try solve this mathematical problem:

In how many ways can you arrange 4 students sitting in a circle?

DrLazDevitan:

You are abit confused.If you argue there is beginning of time,then there should be a frame which events is measured whether it is eternal or not.For the fact that it is eternal does not remove that frame,the problem is that you and I don't know where that frame is.
Your Ultimate dimension is just a philosophical verbal analysis of Principle of Causality-to causes and effect,there is no end on sliding back.

If you were presented with a circle(rolling or not),in how many patterns will you measured time?

To go over this,try solve this mathematical problem:

In how many ways can you arrange 4 students sitting in a circle?

24 ways. I don't see how this solves anything.
Here's my point of view; this our universe is a dimension of its own. It's already a fact that it has a beginning, therefore from another dimension.
This dimension might be ultimate or can go on and on till we get an ultimate dimension.
This ultimate dimension is "eternal" and cannot be explained by frames of events or even on a straight line. Therefore, I brought up a rolling circle analogy; as it beginning or end can't be ascertained and is uncaused.

If there is a frame like you claim, then that dimension is not ultimate. The only way it can go on and on, is if this "Infinite loop" itself is eternal, either ways eliminating the frame concept.

Confusion everywhere.....The mistake we make is trying to rationalise this with our finite minds. Because we live and die, sleep and wake, etc; we are inclined to think that everything must have a beginning and an end This is human nature. But the universe doesn't follow this pattern-linear time does not apply to the universe. It has no beginning and has no end. The universe has always existed and will exist forever.
God is impersonal. It is the all encompassing consciousness, the presiding consciousness that permeates everything and brought everything into existence. This sea of pure consciousness/energy is impersonal, doesn't reason, bear grudges, or hates one and loves another. But it is actively creating and renewing things in accordance to some natural laws and blueprint it set for itself.
The few that know this truth, have gained mastery over this eternal consciousness and can bend it's rule to do their bidding. Meditation is the gateway to getting this divine wisdom.
Stop being the biblical sheep. wake up to the everlasting truth by meditation.

The HOLY GHOST it self is a clear show of GOD'S existence, don't you see healing, miracles, deliverance,and prophecies? The Bible GOD is the only GOD, WHOME the christians and Muslims serve. After baptism I got so many revelation, believe not some but everything in the Bible. Stay blessed.

knowyaself2:
Confusion everywhere.....The mistake we make is trying to rationalise this with our finite minds. Because we live and die, sleep and wake, etc; we are inclined to think that everything must have a beginning and an end This is human nature. But the universe doesn't follow this pattern-linear time does not apply to the universe. It has no beginning and has no end. The universe has always existed and will exist forever.
God is impersonal. It is the all encompassing consciousness, the presiding consciousness that permeates everything and brought everything into existence. This sea of pure consciousness/energy is impersonal, doesn't reason, bear grudges, or hates one and loves another. But it is actively creating and renewing things in accordance to some natural laws and blueprint it set for itself.
The few that know this truth, have gained mastery over this eternal consciousness and can bend it's rule to do their bidding. Meditation is the gateway to getting this divine wisdom.
Stop being the biblical sheep. wake up to the everlasting truth by meditation.

What your mind can not converse,you can not reach.You spend less energy to accept the universe has beginning you know nothing of and to its end you're yet to know.This equally leave you in the middle to accept the fact the universe has no beginning neither an end.It's so simple.

Don't appear too rational by 'biblical' that and that.It is easy to reason than appear vain and ill-witted.

4kings:

24 ways. I don't see how this solves anything.
Here's my point of view; this our universe is a dimension of its own. It's already a fact that it has a beginning, therefore from another dimension.
This dimension might be ultimate or can go on and on till we get an ultimate dimension.
This ultimate dimension is "eternal" and cannot be explained by frames of events or even on a straight line. Therefore, I brought up a rolling circle analogy; as it beginning or end can't be ascertained and is uncaused.

If there is a frame like you claim, then that dimension is not ultimate. The only way it can go on and on, is if this "Infinite loop" itself is eternal, either ways eliminating the frame concept.

I think we are done with this proceedings if you argue no more further as you have supposedly ascerted just awhile that the universe has a beginning with respect to another dimension(serving as a reference gauge).My interest is not in your assumed 'other dimension.' It is in you to understand that universe in its vastness has a core beginning with respect to a frame(the other dimension) as put by you.

DrLazDevitan:

What your mind can not converse,you can not reach.You spend less energy to accept the universe has beginning you know nothing of and to its end you're yet to know.This equally leave you in the middle to accept the fact the universe has no beginning neither an end.It's so simple.
Don't appear too rational by 'biblical' that and that.It is easy to reason than appear vain and ill-witted.

The bolded explains why meditation and opening the soul is necessary to gain divine insight. Trying to explain certain things by words, spoil them many times. Open the 3rd eye and see things for yourselves.

DrLazDevitan:

I think we are done with this proceedings if you argue no more further as you have supposedly ascerted just awhile that the universe has a beginning with respect to another dimension(serving as a reference gauge).My interest is not in your assumed 'other dimension.' It is in you to understand that universe in its vastness has a core beginning with respect to a frame(the other dimension) as put by you.

OK.

ogoina87:
The HOLY GHOST it self is a clear show of GOD'S existence, don't you see healing, miracles, deliverance, and prophecies?

I don't believe that any miracles are happening. One can get people to testify that they have received miracles by teaching them certain doctrines such as: (1) when you feel you may have been healed, giving a testimony about it can make your healing permanent. (2) Anything good that happens in your life is a miracle, and if you give God the credit for those good things, more good things will happen to you.

.

Ontarget:
Some Atheists will say the God mentioned in the Bible is fake and doesn't exist due to some inconsistencies. The God of the Bible may be fake, but the God of creation is definitely not fake, and that is the God I am referring to in this topic; the intelligent invisible spirit behind the creation of the universe and everything within. This topic has nothing to do with the "fake" God of the Bible, but rather the real God behind creation.

If you are an Atheist, what if you were somewhere outside in a sandy area looking around, and suddenly you started seeing grains of sand slowly assemble themselves to form a perfect sculpture of a human form to the finest details? What exactly will be your conclusion while witnessing such? Definitely you will conclude that whatever force is making the grains of sand assemble themselves must be concious and very intelligent to be able to guide every individual grain of sand to position themselves at the appropriate places to carve out a perfect human sculpture to the finest details.

When a child is forming in the womb, billions of individual cells divide and arrange themselves to form the eyes, nose, teeth, brain and every other thing to the finest details to form a complete human being. Is it by chance or by evolution that billions cells coordinate themselves appropriately in the right place and time to form a complete human being? This is something evolution or chance cannot explain. For such a thing to take place there must be an intelligent spirit to provide the direction or source code that will guide every single billion cell to fit itself at the appropriate place without any disorganisation.

So what would an atheist think about this?

OP You have forgotten that ,this very arrangement of these billions of cell to form the eyes,nose, heart, e.t.c to fully from a human is not always perfect.A lot of people are born with different defects from birth due to the misarrangement of these billions of cells you are talking about. People are blind from birth,twins are joined from birth,sickle cell,Down syndrom,babies are born with an improperly formed heart that has other holes in it.I have seen online, a young Indian man by name Arun Kumar with two normal legs and two other deformed ones dangling at his back.People are born complete and in the future their body or body part start to degenerate or malfunction.
Then some things he created incomplete like viruses and bacteria infect humans and it's cells.Take for example HIV,the virus forces human white blood cells (T-cells) to produce its baby viruses for it to be able to reproduce/replicate because it's unable to do so by itself ,because the virus was created incomplete.The human T-cells are destroyed after being used by the HIV for replication/reproduction.A virus can make up to 10,000 baby viruses. The baby viruses go on to infect other T-cells and before you know it very few of the T- cells are left.Consequently making the human defenceless against other external attack ,attacks that are also from other microorganism the God of creation also created.Still talking about virus ,Polio virus makes a well formed baby to be deformed, the legs are destroyed.
There are so many problems with what your God of creation does.For the amount of intelligence the God of creation has, he ought to be creating infallible things not things that are full of errors

Realist1:




OP You have forgotten that ,this very arrangement of these billions of cell to form the eyes,nose, heart, e.t.c to fully from a human is not always perfect.A lot of people are born with different defects from birth due to the misarrangement of these billions of cells you are talking about. People are blind from birth,twins are joined from birth,sickle cell,Down syndrom,babies are born with an improperly formed heart that has other holes in it.I have seen online, a young Indian man by name Arun Kumar with two normal legs and two other deformed ones dangling at his back.People are born complete and in the future their body or body part start to degenerate or malfunction.
Then some things he created incomplete like viruses and bacteria infect humans and it's cells.Take for example HIV,the virus forces human white blood cells (T-cells) to produce its baby viruses for it to be able to reproduce/replicate because it's unable to do so by itself ,because the virus was created incomplete.The human T-cells are destroyed after being used by the HIV for replication/reproduction.A virus can make up to 10,000 baby viruses. The baby viruses go on to infect other T-cells and before you know it very few of the T- cells are left.Consequently making the human defenceless against other external attack ,attacks that are also from other microorganism the God of creation also created.Still talking about virus ,Polio virus makes a well formed baby to be deformed, the legs are destroyed.
There are so many problems with what your God of creation does.For the amount of intelligence the God of creation has, he ought to be creating infallible things not things that are full of errors

So because we have defects that definitely means there is no creator? When you purchase a car with defects does that mean there is no car manufacturer? What if humans are the cause of the defects due to one or two wrong practices or exposures to poisons? 5% birth defects still does not prove that nothing is behind creation. Even 90% birth defects still does not prove there is no creator. Maybe the creator is not perfect like the Bible says. If you wanna know whether a creator exists just do away with the Bible and think from a fresh perspective. Stop relying on the flaws in Bible.

One thing is just CERTAIN, there is something intelligent behind creation and we dont know exactly what it is.

Ontarget:

So because we have defects that definitely means there is no creator? When you purchase a car with defects does that mean there is no car manufacturer? What if humans are the cause of the defects due to one or two wrong practices or exposures to poisons? 5% birth defects still does not prove that nothing is behind creation. Even 90% birth defects still does not prove there is no creator. Maybe the creator is not perfect like the Bible says. If you wanna know whether a creator exists just do away with the Bible and think from a fresh perspective. Stop relying on the flaws in Bible.

One thing is just CERTAIN, there is something intelligent behind creation and we dont know exactly what it is.

I think you are the one thinking am bringing the Biblical God into this.

When an "Intelligent" being/creator creates something it is definitely for a PURPOSE. What is the purpose of creating a HIV or Ebola virus,or bacteria that is going to kill the other creations.What is the purpose of creating a snake, an apex predator dinosaur like the T Rex,a housefly,mosquito,the repetitious presence of billions of planets and stars.The repetition in creation is where I see lack of intelligence but chance.One kind of an animal or plant is okay not hundreds or thousands of the same plant or animal.It is bad enough to have a virus but to have different types of virus families, species is where intelligence vanishes for me and chance and randomness appears.Even in the same species they are still different strains e.g we have HIV 1 and 2 inshort we also have the monkey HIV called the Symian virus. Ebola we have the Congo strain and the other country strains.Thesame goes for snakes ,house fly different families,species inshort everything on earth and the universe is repetitious.
To me repetition shows a lack of intelligence but a hint of something happening by chance.I don't know the difference now between a crocodile and an Alligator or a Cheetah and a Leopard unless I go and find out,but to me they look strikingly thesame. I also know there are different species of crocodile and Alligator even though they look thesame or is it Leopard and Cheetah?So why the repetition of the same thing with various species and family why not just one?

As for creation new things are created in space everyday.Those new planets, stars,galaxies also clashes with each other sometimes and die out,why? I know that as I type this reply now, millions of stars and planets are being born right now, who is creating them? It's CHANCE! I also know that humans are not unique because I and those new planets and stars are the same.In the science world the planets formed from the stars, and humans formed from the planet.How? because everything in this world and in the universe are made of the same thing ATOMS!

Moreso intelligence is time-related at a given time humans might see themselves or what they created as intelligent or great but in the future when they look back it becomes stupid.We use to think Nokia 3310 was superb then but we now see it is crap compared to present day smartphones.So will humans in year 5,016 see our creations and thinking in year 2016 as stupid.Future humans are always going to see ancient creations as less intelligent creations.
Humans back then saw a lot of intelligence in creation but humans now see a lot of errors,dangers and randomness in creation.For crying out loud everything is trying to kill us,diseases,earthquake,volcanic eruptions,Tsunami,tornado,earthquake,asteroid collision,terrorist,the sun rays,cosmic rays, e.t.c

Finally to me creation with a purpose without unnecessary repetition shows intelligence .Repetition in creation shows a lack of intelligence but a happening by chance.

Realist1:


I think you are the one thinking am bringing the Biblical God into this.

When an "Intelligent" being/creator creates something it is definitely for a PURPOSE. What is the purpose of creating a HIV or Ebola virus,or bacteria that is going to kill the other creations.What is the purpose of creating a snake, an apex predator dinosaur like the T Rex,a housefly,mosquito,the repetitious presence of billions of planets and stars.The repetition in creation is where I see lack of intelligence but chance.One kind of an animal or plant is okay not hundreds or thousands of the same plant or animal.It is bad enough to have a virus but to have different types of virus families, species is where intelligence vanishes for me and chance and randomness appears.Even in the same species they are still different strains e.g we have HIV 1 and 2 inshort we also have the monkey HIV called the Symian virus. Ebola we have the Congo strain and the other country strains.Thesame goes for snakes ,house fly different families,species inshort everything on earth and the universe is repetitious.
To me repetition shows a lack of intelligence but a hint of something happening by chance.I don't know the difference now between a crocodile and an Alligator or a Cheetah and a Leopard unless I go and find out,but to me they look strikingly thesame. I also know there are different species of crocodile and Alligator even though they look thesame or is it Leopard and Cheetah?So why the repetition of the same thing with various species and family why not just one?

As for creation new things are created in space everyday.Those new planets, stars,galaxies also clashes with each other sometimes and die out,why? I know that as I type this reply now, millions of stars and planets are being born right now, who is creating them? It's CHANCE! I also know that humans are not unique because I and those new planets and stars are the same.In the science world the planets formed from the stars, and humans formed from the planet.How? because everything in this world and in the universe are made of the same thing ATOMS!

Moreso intelligence is time-related at a given time humans might see themselves or what they created as intelligent or great but in the future when they look back it becomes stupid.We use to think Nokia 3310 was superb then but we now see it is crap compared to present day smartphones.So will humans in year 5,016 see our creations and thinking in year 2016 as stupid.Future humans are always going to see ancient creations as less intelligent creations.
Humans back then saw a lot of intelligence in creation but humans now see a lot of errors,dangers and randomness in creation.For crying out loud everything is trying to kill us,diseases,earthquake,volcanic eruptions,Tsunami,tornado,earthquake,asteroid collision,terrorist,the sun rays,cosmic rays, e.t.c

Finally to me creation with a purpose without unnecessary repetition shows intelligence .Repetition in creation shows a lack of intelligence but a happening by chance.

Your write up is really funny. So when humans make a car design and produce the same design 5 million times it means humans are not intelligent? Humans do a lot of things repeatedly does it mean we are not intelligent? I am sorry to say you ain't making any sense here.

The fact that you dont know why the Ebola virus was created doesn't mean it serves no purpose. Human understanding and intelligence is very limited and the worst mistake we can make is it to assume we know when we actually dont know. Bottom line is YOU DONT KNOW ANYTHING beyond what your eye sees, ear hears and skin feels

I think u are getting it wrong here by using a car always as your example.
So if a well known fashion designer like Gucci,Tommy Hilfiger,Versace e.t.c keep making thesame type of design pattern,colour and sewing pattern for both males and females since their inception do you think they will still be existing? That shows they lack Ideas or inovation.It is even seen as a crime for a celebrity to repeat clothes.Even the car companies do they have one type of car design? Check how many cars designs and names Toyota has.

If a creator is responsible for the existence of over 7.5Billion people and he doesn't see it important for the creations to know him physically other than through signs and what not, then the creations have every right not to border to know him.Even if he exist or not.
Then it will be hypocrisy for the believers in that creator to scold earthly fathers that abandon their kids and run away

.

Brown47:




Here is my conclusion. If every assembled thing need an assembler, then who assembled the assembler?

You're asking a question that doesn't follow. "Every assembled thing needs an assmbler."

That doesn't mean the assembler is an assembled thing. So it'd be illogical for you to ask "who assembled the assembler?"

HE WASN'T ASSEMBLED!!!