From the foregoing, It is clear that man has a designer.

"For every design, there is a designer"

"For every move, the must be a mover"

Now, who/what brought about the existence of God? Who/what designed God?

As long as God, would not intervene, in real terms to address this, the debate must go on. The explaination by Genesis, is not very convincing-There is a discrepancy of how old human has been around compared to today's reasonable explanation.
Also the fact dat many religion differs in explanation and beleive, has not help in convincing anyone.

if you are interested, let us look at it from scriptural point of view. the bible has answer.

Life—How Did It Start?

LIFE is everywhere around us. It is evident in the humming of insects, the singing of birds, the rustlings of small animals in the underbrush. It exists in the icy polar regions and in parched deserts. It is present from the sea’s sunlit surface to its darkest depths. High in the atmosphere tiny creatures float about. Beneath our feet untold trillions of microorganisms are at work in the soil, making it fertile for the growing of green plants, which sustain other forms of life.

2 Earth is packed with life so abundant and varied as to stagger the imagination. How did it all start? This planet of ours and all its inhabitants—how did they come to be here? More particularly, how did humankind get started? Did we evolve from apelike animals? Or were we created? Just how did we get here? And what does the answer imply for the future? Questions like these have been around for a long time and they are still unanswered in the minds of many.

3 Perhaps you feel that these questions do not really affect you. You may think: ‘It doesn’t matter how I got here—I’m here. And I’ll probably live for 60, 70 or maybe 80 years—who knows? But whether we were created or we evolved, it changes nothing for me now.’ On the contrary, it could change a great deal—how long you live, the way you live, the conditions under which you live. How so? Because our entire attitude toward life and the future is influenced by our viewpoint on the origin of life. And how life came to be here will definitely affect the future course of history and our place in it.

Differing Viewpoints

4 In the view of many who accept the theory of evolution, life will always be made up of intense competition, with strife, hatred, wars and death. Some even feel that man may destroy himself in the near future. A prominent scientist stated: “We may have only another few decades until Doomsday. . . . the development of nuclear weapons and their delivery systems will, sooner or later, lead to global disaster.”1 Even if this did not happen soon, many believe that when a person’s life span runs out in death he is then nonexistent forever. Others feel that, in the future, all life on earth will end. They theorize that the sun will expand into a red giant star, and as it does, “the oceans will boil, the atmosphere will evaporate away to space and a catastrophe of the most immense proportions imaginable will overtake our planet.”2

5 Recoiling from these conclusions are the “scientific creationists.” But their interpretation of the Genesis creation account has led them to claim that the earth is only 6,000 years old and that the six “days” allowed in Genesis for creation were each only 24 hours long. But does such an idea accurately represent what the Bible is saying? Was the earth, and all its life forms, created in just six literal days? Or is there a reasonable alternative?

6 In considering questions related to the origin of life, popular opinion or emotion sway many. To avoid this and to reach accurate conclusions, we need to consider the evidence with an open mind. It is interesting to note, too, that even evolution’s best-known advocate, Charles Darwin, indicated an awareness of his theory’s limitations. In his conclusion to The Origin of Species, he wrote of the grandeur of the “view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one,”3 thus making it evident that the subject of origins was open to further examination.

Science Not at Issue

7 Before proceeding further, a clarification may be helpful: Scientific achievement is not at issue here. Every informed person is aware of the amazing accomplishments of scientists in many fields. Scientific study has dramatically increased our knowledge of the universe and of the earth and of living things. Studies of the human body have opened up improved ways of treating illnesses and injuries. Rapid advances in electronics have ushered in the computer age, which is altering our lives. Scientists have performed astounding feats, even sending men to the moon and back. It is only right to respect the skills that have added so greatly to our knowledge of the world around us, from minutely small things to infinitely large ones.

8 It may also be useful to clarify definitions at this point: Evolution, as used in this book, refers to organic evolution—the theory that the first living organism developed from nonliving matter. Then, as it reproduced, it is said to have changed into different kinds of living things, producing ultimately all forms of life that have ever existed on earth, including humans. And all of this is believed to have been accomplished without intelligent direction or supernatural intervention. Creation, on the other hand, is the conclusion that the appearing of living things can only be explained by the existence of an Almighty God who designed and made the universe and all the basic kinds of life upon the earth.

Some Vital Questions

9 Obviously, there are profound differences between the theory of evolution and the Genesis creation account. Those who accept evolution contend that creation is not scientific. But in fairness, it could also be asked: Is evolution itself truly scientific? On the other hand, is Genesis just another ancient creation myth, as many contend? Or is it in harmony with the discoveries of modern science? And what about other questions that trouble so many: If there is an all-powerful Creator, why is there so much war, famine and disease that send millions to an early grave? Why would he permit so much suffering? Also, if there is a Creator, does he reveal what the future will hold?

10 It is the aim of this book to examine such questions and related issues. The publishers hope that you will consider its contents with an open mind. Why is this so important? Because this information could prove to be of greater value to you than you may yet realize.


Some Things to Think About

Our world is filled with so many marvelous things:

Big things: A setting sun that turns the western sky into a blaze of colors. A night sky, packed with stars. A forest of towering trees, run through by shafts of light. Jagged mountain ranges, their icy summits glistening in the sun. Surging, wind-tossed oceans. These things exhilarate us, fill us with awe.

Little things: A tiny bird, a warbler, flying high over the Atlantic, heading toward Africa on its way to South America. At some 20,000 feet it picks up a prevailing wind that turns it toward South America. Directed by its migrating instinct, it follows its course for several days and 2,400 miles—three quarters of an ounce of courage wrapped in feathers. We are filled with admiration and wonder.

Ingenious things: Bats that use sonar. Eels that make electricity. Gulls that desalt seawater. Wasps that make paper. Termites that install air conditioners. Octopuses that travel by jet propulsion. Birds that do weaving or build apartment houses. Ants that do gardening or sewing, or keep livestock. Fireflies with built-in flashlights. We marvel at such ingenuity.

Simple things: As life nears its end, it is the small things that we often focus upon, things that we had so often taken for granted: A smile. The touch of a hand. A kind word. A tiny flower. The singing of a bird. The warmth of the sun.

When we think about such big things that are breathtaking, little things that stir our admiration, ingenious things that fascinate us, simple things belatedly appreciated—to what do we attribute them? Just how can such things be explained? Where did they come from?

asoderock:

"For every design, there is a designer"

Not necessarily. What is a design?

@Aftertech

Well I agree with you in so many points: Looking around, there a lot one can see that are marvelous, and will suggest the hand of a designer. But some questions still remain, for instance:

"Who/what designed God"  - since from the foregoing logic, 'every design has a designer'


If God is the ultimate designer, himself being undesigned(It contradicts the logic), and if God is all loving why has evil persisted? -You may answer by explaining he is not responsible, that it is because of the "free will" he gave to man. But like someone, had asked earlier,
Why couldn't he remove the "free will"

The truth is that no one has offered a conclusive explanation, about this question of God's existence.

We are often afraid to deny God's existence. We all we be happy to be convinced beyond reasonable doubt, that he really exist.

asoderock:

@Aftertech

Well I agree with you in so many points: Looking around, there a lot one can see that are marvelous, and will suggest the hand of a designer. But some questions still remain, for instance:

"Who/what designed God" - since from the foregoing logic, 'every design has a designer'


If God is the ultimate designer, himself being undesigned(It contradicts the logic), and if God is all loving why has evil persisted? -You may answer by explaining he is not responsible, that it is because of the "free will" he gave to man. But like someone, had asked earlier,
Why couldn't he remove the "free will"

The truth is that no one has offered a conclusive explanation, about this question of God's existence.

We are often afraid to deny God's existence. We all we be happy to be convinced beyond reasonable doubt, that he really exist.

Could I make some observations, asoderock?

While it is true that design may point to a designer, not everything observable necessarily needs to point to a designer, even though some may have the appearance of 'design'. The logic you posit does not have universality in its application, for you will first need to define what you mean by 'design' before coming to any conclusions as to make applications of that logic.

Therefore, if that logic cannot stand universality in its application, you cannot use it as the prism to narrow all things about the Creator (the 'Ultimate Designer') to a point. As you pointed out, God Himself being undesigned would contradict your logic, and quite well so, because your logic contradicts reality as to its universality. Not everything that appears to be designed is actually pointing to a 'designer'.

To the question of whether anyone is often afraid to deny God's existence: that one still does not stand logic. Denying the existence of God (howsoever termed, whether 'Ultimate Designer', Creator, or Uncaused Causer) leaves the denier with more questions than answers.

Let us even grant, for the sake of argument, the denial of God's existence - no Ultimate Designer, no Creator, no Uncaused Causer. .and thus, no 'free will'. . nothing, nada, zilch. Right? Now, the denier has some work to do: he would have to tell us how the Universe sprang into existence on its own. At least, no one has blamed the Universe for 'free will' or the fact of evil in our world and experiences; so start from this basic question to fathom any mathematical or philosophical deductions for a cosmos that just sprang into existence on its own. That would indeed take away your own fear and help you to be less concerned about what theists think.

DN what?

Will be back

The Bible is so clear in its explanation of the begining of things and how things are, and to crown it all- how they will all end. The Problem is People tend to read the Bible just the way they do Novels and the likes.

To set the stage, please answer these question sincerely in your Heart:

1) which is more complex? (a) An insect. (b) A cell phone.

2) If you are walking along the Road and you see an insect and a cell phone what will be your conclussion about their Origin. Choose two best options
     (a) a cell phone cannot just come to be there, it has a designer that has carefully designed it.
     (b) a cell phone came into existence by chance therefore it has no creator
     (c) an insect is too complex and should have a designer that has carefully designed it.
     (d) an insect came into existence by chance therefore it has no creator.

If you have answered the above questions, look at your anwers and have a deep thought within you? One thousand super computers cannot be compared to the human mind. How complex then can an ordinary computer be as compared to your Brain? Still Foolish people conclude that the computer has a designer but the human came to be as result of some manipulations here and there, it says we came to be by chance-How posible could that be, that something so complex would just come to be?

The idea about creation as recorded in the Bible is even scientifically true. The six days recorded in the Bible are only Figurative, they (the six days) actually coincides with what Evolution actually says.

There are historic times in Evolution and these periods are actually what the Bible refer to as DAYS.what does Evolution says about the coming of man on the scene? As compared to the others like bacteria, trees, and all, humans are the last to come on scene. The Bible actually says God created man after he created the Others. Go and look at it but this time more carefully and you will see that it actually says what Science is trying to say. THE SIX DAYS OF CREATION ARE FIGURATIVE.

Now come to look at science on the other hand as a whole- it is one thing today and another tommorrow. Recent discoveries in science are putting away some thories that had long existed about The universe and Life. Go and update yourselves about these (Thank God for the wealth of information on the  internet).

Some 3,500 years ago, the Bible stated that the earth is hanging “upon nothing.” (Job 26:7) In the eighth century B.C.E., Isaiah clearly referred to “the circle [or, sphere] of the earth.” (Isaiah 40:22) A spherical earth held in empty space without any visible or physical means of support—does not that description sound remarkably modern?

Many mistaken beliefs gained wide acceptance in ancient times. Views about the earth ranged from the idea that it was flat to the notion that tangible substances or objects held it aloft. Same beliefs are held today but as science progresses, it will surely uncover some things that will prove what you know today to be wrong.

While it is true that design may point to a designer, not everything observable necessarily needs to point to a designer, even though some may have the appearance of 'design'. The logic you posit does not have universality in its application, for you will first need to define what you mean by 'design' before coming to any conclusions as to make applications of that logic.

@VIARO

Encarta dictionary defines Desing as:

de·sign [di zn]
verb (past and past participle de·signed, present participle de·sign·ing, 3rd person present singular de·signs)
1.  transitive and intransitive verb create detailed plan of something: to make a detailed plan of the form or structure of something, emphasizing features such as its appearance, convenience, and efficient functioning
a well-designed car interior

2.  transitive and intransitive verb plan and make something: to plan and make something in a skillful or artistic way
3.  transitive verb intend something for particular use: to intend something for a particular purpose
The scholarship was designed to aid foreign students.

4.  transitive verb invent something: to contrive, devise, or plan something

Microsoft® Encarta® 2009. © 1993-2008 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

What were you saying again about a design and designer?

DEOXYRIBRONUCLEIC/ RIBRONUCLEIC ACID, ARENT YOU PEOPLE TIRED OF PROVING WETHER GOD ACTUALLY EXIST, LOOKING FOR PROOF WILL ONLY MAKE YOU TO LOOK MORE HARDER, HE EXIST BELIEVE OR NOT IF YOU LIKE.

iorhenter:

@VIARO

Encarta dictionary defines Desing as:

de·sign [di zn]
verb (past and past participle de·signed, present participle de·sign·ing, 3rd person present singular de·signs)
1. transitive and intransitive verb create detailed plan of something: to make a detailed plan of the form or structure of something, emphasizing features such as its appearance, convenience, and efficient functioning
a well-designed car interior

2. transitive and intransitive verb plan and make something: to plan and make something in a skillful or artistic way
3. transitive verb intend something for particular use: to intend something for a particular purpose
The scholarship was designed to aid foreign students.

4. transitive verb invent something: to contrive, devise, or plan something

Microsoft® Encarta® 2009. © 1993-2008 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

What were you saying again about a design and designer?

Thank you, iorhenter. This was what I said about a design and designer:

While it is true that design may point to a designer, not everything observable
necessarily needs to point to a designer, even though some may have the
appearance of 'design'.

That statement was made from the backdrop of this question I offered asoderock:

viaro:
Not necessarily. What is a design?

Which one of those definitions do you want to apply in your own meaning of 'design'?

I beleive by faith the existence of God, that is the only way anybody can possibly beleive in the existence of God.

The Genesis account is not convincing at all:

That the universe, and life were created, within 7 days.

Also biblical Chronolygy is out of place with the reality. If you trace backward from the time of Jesus Christ through the generations; Moses, Abraham etc uptill Adam, you discover we are talking about less than 10,000 years.

In reality, The universe is more than a billion years old, life first emerge on earth about 540 million years ago, and human has been around since at least 200,000 years ago. (Note the intervals as well)

Lee Strobel made his case here on how DNA gives the evidence of God.

[flash=500,400]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUw6aRB9VMg&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&fs=1[/flash]

Hehe. . asoderock, I was hoping you would concentrate on the simple question of the meaning of 'design'. But since you don't seem to be going there, I shall only deal on your concerns about a 7 day creation.

asoderock:

The Genesis account is not convincing at all:

That the universe, and life were created, within 7 days.

The Genesis account is both consistent and convincing - it is Christians who have followed a traditional mode of interpretation to make up the myth of the '7 days creation of the universe'. Even though I'm a Christian, I don't read anywhere in Genesis where He intended us to give that interpretation to the creation account. God did not tell us that He created the Universe (ie., the cosmos) in 7 days; and you might be interested in seeing just a bit of my discussion on this subject in the thread: Why Christians Ignorantly Oppose The Theory Of Evolution, start from post #24, then fast forward to post #113 to #116 where I asked questions to dispell the notion of a YUC (young universe creationism). The point is that the '7 days creation of the UNIVERSE' is not taught in Scripture and does not apply to viaro. As Christians we need to think a little deeper and rid our mentality of this traditional ideology that just doesn't make sense in light of what Scripture teaches.

viaro:

Hehe. . asoderock, I was hoping you would concentrate on the simple question of the meaning of 'design'. But since you don't seem to be going there, I shall only deal on your concerns about a 7 day creation.

The Genesis account is both consistent and convincing - it is Christians who have followed a traditional mode of interpretation to make up the myth of the '7 days creation of the universe'. Even though I'm a Christian, I don't read anywhere in Genesis where He intended us to give that interpretation to the creation account. God did not tell us that He created the Universe (ie., the cosmos) in 7 days; and you might be interested in seeing just a bit of my discussion on this subject in the thread: Why Christians Ignorantly Oppose The Theory Of Evolution, start from post #24, then fast forward to post #113 to #116 where I asked questions to dispell the notion of a YUC (young universe creationism). The point is that the '7 days creation of the UNIVERSE' is not taught in Scripture and does not apply to viaro. As Christians we need to think a little deeper and rid our mentality of this traditional ideology that just doesn't make sense in light of what Scripture teaches.

I think i will have to schedule a debate between you and Ken Ham since (Kent Hovind is in prison) So that you can explain to them why they are wrong and why you are right. You said that seven days creation of the universe is not taught in the scripture? I say it is clearly taught in the scriptures. The YEC have EVERY reason to believe that their position about the 7 day creation account of the universe is talked about in the scriptures(I am not talking about the age of the universe here). . . . .

it is as simple as this, the writers of the bible who were inspired by "God", did not mention DNA or ecology nor credit them to God. thus, why then attribute it God? this were findings of science, by methods different from those employed by religion.  evolution is a result of truth and science, founded by methods of science. not on dogma.                                                                                                                                                                                                                        @ olaadegbu, lee has at the back of his mind, a prejudice that God exists.

mazaje:

I think i will have to schedule a debate between you and Ken Ham since (Kent Hovind is in prison) So that you can explain to them why they are wrong and why you are right. You said that seven days creation of the universe is not taught in the scripture? I say it is clearly taught in the scriptures. The YEC have EVERY reason to believe that their position about the 7 day creation account of the universe is talked about in the scriptures(I am not talking about the age of the universe here). . . . .

@mazaje, bros. . howdy?
Look, no need for long talk. I respect Ken Ham and co; but I don't give two scoobies what they're yapping about. I look forward to any such debate(s) between their camp and viaro, if you may.

viaro:

@mazaje, bros. .  howdy?
Look, no need for long talk. I respect Ken Ham and co; but I don't give two scoobies what they're yapping about. I look forward to any such debate(s) between their camp and viaro, if you may.

Am cool bros, Hope you are doing good out there. . . .Nothing do you, A debate will be scheduled between you and Ken Ham on Lee Strobel's show(Faith under fire). . .so you better get ready .

viaro:

Let us even grant, for the sake of argument, the denial of God's existence - no Ultimate Designer, no Creator, no Uncaused Causer. .and thus, no 'free will'. . nothing, nada, zilch. Right? Now, the denier has some work to do: he would have to tell us how the Universe sprang into existence on its own. At least, no one has blamed the Universe for 'free will' or the fact of evil in our world and experiences; so start from this basic question to fathom any mathematical or philosophical deductions for a cosmos that just sprang into existence on its own. That would indeed take away your own fear and help you to be less concerned about what theists think.

Is there anything wrong with saying we don't really know how the cosmos started? and that all assertions about its existence are possibilities with some making more sense than the others based on the evidence? which is basically what science is all about?  

A true scientist can only be agnostic because he opens himself to all possibilities.

Why should anyone blame the Universe for free will or evil when the proponents of a spontaneous cosmos generation (if they exist) never made such grand assertions as are made in the bible and the various holy books about the so called creator/god?  

duduspace how far? Two days? hope you are god out there. . . .

mazaje:

duduspace how far? Two days? hope you are god out there. . . .

I'm good my brother, been more active in the sports section in recent times but I still pop in here every now and then.

duduspace:

I'm good my brother, been more active in the sports section in recent times but I still pop in here every now and then.

Nice to know that you are doing good. . . .

viaro:

@mazaje, bros. . howdy?
Look, no need for long talk. I respect Ken Ham and co; but I don't give two scoobies what they're yapping about. I look forward to any such debate(s) between their camp and viaro, if you may.

viaro:

Let us even grant, for the sake of argument, the denial of God's existence - no Ultimate Designer, no Creator, no Uncaused Causer. .and thus, no 'free will'. . nothing, nada, zilch. Right? Now, the denier has some work to do: he would have to tell us how the Universe sprang into existence on its own.

Mmmmmh a leopard truly cannot change it's spots, highlighted above are classic lines from pilgrim.1

KunleOshob:

Mmmmmh a leopard truly cannot change it's spots, highlighted above are classic lines from pilgrim.1

How can a leopard ever change its spots

evolution

Bawomolo: i have a question davidylan. how did you get to know God's gender.  Is God a man?

just wondering

- The Creator is a Spirit.

- As far as I know, the Bible does not tell us anything about the gender of a spirit.

- Hence I cannot categorically tell you the gender of THE CREATOR.

- Nevertheless, what i can categorically tell you is that IT IS CORRECT TO REFER TO HIM AS IF HE IS A MALE. I can say this because He is refered to as "Our Father" by The Messiah Himself, meaning that even The Messiah Himself gives us the understand of Him as Male.

Kunle, i accepted your story about how the study of DNA proved the existence of God but i would have prefer you using "organized creatures or beings" rather than just one Supernatural being.call them aliens if you want,huh?

2ks:

Kunle, i accepted your story about how the study of DNA proved the existence of God but i would have prefer you using "organized creatures or beings" rather than just one Supernatural being.call them aliens if you want,huh?

And you do not find it weird for someone to believe in Aliens and yet prefer not to believe in the existence of a Creator.

Wow . . .

I could as well suggest that it proves aliens create us! that it was the programming language for creation. so nothing is proven. only if the person of God is proven, then existence would ascertained; not what could probably be his work.

2ks:

Kunle, i accepted your story about how the study of DNA proved the existence of God but i would have prefer you using "organized creatures or beings" rather than just one Supernatural being.call them aliens if you want,huh?

Well it is not my original writing hence the words used are not mine, i just coppied and pasted excerpts from the source website. However i found the revelations made there very informative.