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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / If Rapture Took Place On A Sunday:70% Left Behind (7416 Views)
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Re: If Rapture Took Place On A Sunday:70% Left Behind by shadeyinka(m): 1:27pm On Apr 22, 2017 |
4kings: It is indeed like watching a pre-released movie. God isn't subject to time, hence He can move to and fro within events past , present or future.
A few weeks ago, the BBNigeria reality TV series was initiated and concluded. Are you insinuating that the Producers, Directors and the Sponsors had already decided from inception that Efe will win the grand prize? I think what I mean is like this. God gave the general rules, He initiates the program but it is a COMPETITION a SELECTION!
My point is to show that there are other means of information and knowledge without need for cognition, deduction or experience. Such is the rhelm of God who can know things yet to be without having to predestinate it. Wrong answer! If you were not subject to time and space, then 1. You can be everywhere and anywhere at the same time 2. You can know everything Past, Present and Future
The above is just your perception. Judgement based on foreknowledge alone is unfair
I would never see you as deluded even if we see things from different point of view. Talking about perception. 1. Logically, order can never come out of chaos without an external influence. 2. Logically, order cannot spontaneously exist out of nothing The Order in the fine details of the universe stands seriously against your judgement. Atoms are Ordered. From atoms, everything you see as reality including your brain matter were made. How did atoms came to be ordered? The answer can only lead you to God! We can reorient our perception if we ask the right questions |
Re: If Rapture Took Place On A Sunday:70% Left Behind by 4kings: 5:41pm On Apr 22, 2017 |
shadeyinka:I addressed this already. The producers don't know the outcome of their production, therefore it's not foreknowledge. Does not change Foreknowledge, Predestination and Illusion. My point is to show that there are other means of information and knowledge without need for cognition, deduction or experience. Such is the rhelm of God who can know things yet to be without having to predestinate it.If i am not subject to time and space, then i am outside of time and space, therefore 1 and 2 can't occur. Think on this. The above is just your perception.I knew this was your problem. I would never see you as deluded even if we see things from different point of view.Thanks. You're not like KingEbukasBlog I don't think you know 4kings. I'm not an atheist ooo. |
Re: If Rapture Took Place On A Sunday:70% Left Behind by shadeyinka(m): 8:38am On Apr 23, 2017 |
4kings: I am not insinuating that the Producers of BBNiger has any form of foreknowledge. I am stating the obvious: The fact that you produced a Reality TV does not imply pre-choosing who the winner will be. Your claim is that since God produced the Theater of Man, He must certainly have doctored each persons act. No Foreknowledge isn't Predestination Predestination isn't Foreknowledge Both are exclusive with respect to my God. If you still have a problem with that, no problem its your choice and I can't change that.
1 and 2 can't occur iff a. I don't exist b. I am Physical BUT "I AM" suggests that I exist and since I am not subject to time and space, I am not Physical. therefore my point holds.
You speak and argue as one. So, what are you? 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: If Rapture Took Place On A Sunday:70% Left Behind by frank317: 9:50am On Apr 23, 2017 |
shadeyinka: You are deliberately misquoting him. He didn't claim that since God produced the Theater of Man, He must certainly have doctored each persons act. He said that if God has a foreknowledge of every man's act even before CREATING the theater of man then he must have predestined it. Yes Foreknowledge isn't Predestination and Predestination isn't Foreknowledge But both cannot be exclusive with God as the creator who already knows every out come even before creating. |
Re: If Rapture Took Place On A Sunday:70% Left Behind by 4kings: 4:49pm On Apr 23, 2017 |
shadeyinka:I've always told you that you were misrepresenting my points. frank317 has replied this appropriately. Was there a time before the creation of the universe where your God resides? If so, do you think there would be any existence without "TIME"? Existence can't be without time. I see you've brought the immateriality concept of God, to talk about space. The fact that something is immaterial does not mean it's without a location(That is if it exists). Light for example is mass-less and not classified as matter in physics, but it's existence is subject to space, not so? Is the residence of God without Location. Existence and space/time are mutually exclusive Recheck your definition of time and space to understand what i'm saying. When people say God is outside of space and time, i don't think they mean it literally, but they think he transcends it(time/space of this universe). You speak and argue as one.I'm a freethinking deist. |
Re: If Rapture Took Place On A Sunday:70% Left Behind by shadeyinka(m): 9:33pm On Apr 23, 2017 |
4kings: Physical Existence and space/time are mutually exclusive Spiritual Existence can occur outside space and time. I am sure we shall disagree on this but a good example is what happens in your Dreams (very similar to how things are in the spirit) Where: Time isn't linear and sometimes irrelevant Position isn't absolute You can think ofbitbin terms of Parallel Universe. Within a dream, a person could get admission to a school, graduate and start his NYSC all within a dream. In such dream, the events could even occur in parallel and the events seem logical. Of course, in the Physical, the dream itself could be a 2 minutes REM dream...an impossibility in real life. You may not believe in the existence of spirit and how they operate (and you don't need to) but that is a close enough explanation of why God can exist without location. Everywhere and Somewhere at the same time! Like I said, we don't have to agree of the possibility. It is sufficient to just understand how those who believe in God Jehovah think. First time I'm hearing about a Freethinking Deist. I know of Freethinkers I know of Deists But the combination must be complex. So you see why I mistook you for an Atheist. Even then, you still sound very Atheistic. |
Re: If Rapture Took Place On A Sunday:70% Left Behind by shadeyinka(m): 9:47pm On Apr 23, 2017 |
frank317: I am not misquoting him. He is saying that since God has foreknowledge of everything, then he must have predestined everything. I used to word exclusive to mean this: That is God can have Foreknowledge without having to Predestinate. However, the converse: Predestination must go with Foreknowledge. I agree, the word exclusive is ambiguous. |
Re: If Rapture Took Place On A Sunday:70% Left Behind by frank317: 12:35am On Apr 24, 2017 |
shadeyinka: U deliberately ignore the 'as a Creator' part and still say u are not misquoting him. If before creating me, God knows that i, will grow up to become and atheist. He knows that i will go ahead and reject all biblical theories of him and he knows that i will go to hell, then he goes ahead to create me, isn't that Predestination? Isn't he creating me to become what he knows? Is he expecting me to do otherwise with my free will? Having a knowledge of me before creating me and calling it free will is fraudulent. If he was creating me without having in mind what i will become, perhaps all he had was assumption that i might be an atheist or Christian, then u can say the choice is mine. But with God knowing before even creating me, that means i am create to become what he knows. |
Re: If Rapture Took Place On A Sunday:70% Left Behind by shadeyinka(m): 7:05am On Apr 24, 2017 |
frank317: But He knows that one of your grand children will be a wonderful Evangelist that will turn hundreds of thousands to Him. And you call that fraudulent? If you were God and the above scenario is true, would you as God still create this atheist? Moreover, God didn't make you an Atheist, you did! |
Re: If Rapture Took Place On A Sunday:70% Left Behind by frank317: 7:16am On Apr 24, 2017 |
shadeyinka: It's either u have difficulty in understanding a point or u are deliberately being dubious What i call fraudulent is not God knowing people will turn to evangelist. Why are u changing my statement just to make suit Ur believe. I am being objective here. Listen again... Knowing my children will turn evangelists and creating them is like creating them to become what u know they will become. It's like creating them to be evangelists because u knew them even before creating them. Already u don't expect someone u know will become evangelist to become an armed robbery becasue u created him with a prior knowledge of him. Calling the fact that he became an evangelist, something u created him to become, freewill is fraudulent. It's fraudulent because u created him to be that way, how can it be freewill? It was already predestined because ur creating of him was guided by an already existing knowledge of him. |
Re: If Rapture Took Place On A Sunday:70% Left Behind by shadeyinka(m): 7:51am On Apr 24, 2017 |
frank317: Your problem is that you have ruled out the possibility of God knowing (Foreknowledge) without coercing (Predestination). But that's exactly the point. God does not need to predestin to foreknow any one. You seem not to understand the power of choice. A person can choose to be celibate or not He can choose to terminate his life or go on living He can choose to live a life of peace or violence He can choose to be to be an Atheist or not God respects your choice in life, but every choice has its consequence. What you don't want to believe is that God can give humans the power of choice and still have a foreknowledge of what your ultimate choices would be. Since you don't even believe in the existence of God it can't make sense to you. I understand. It really doesn't have to make sense to you. It is sufficient that you know what a Christian believes about Jehovah God. |
Re: If Rapture Took Place On A Sunday:70% Left Behind by frank317: 8:53am On Apr 24, 2017 |
shadeyinka: From the way u are replying me, i am sure it does not make sense to u either. U just believe all these by faith and that's what u should say rather than trying to explain the impossible. U are human, i am human, neither of us is God(if he exists) So try again and RESPOND to my posts. Let me try again... I understand choice, i understand u saying foreknowledge and Predestination are exclusive... WHAT I DONT UNDERSTAND IS GOD KNOWING EVERYTHING ABOUT ME, I MEAN, MY THOUGHTS, DESIRES, UPBRINGING, LIKES, DISLIKES, CHOICE, ASPIRATIONS, DESTINATION, MY FINAL END POINT, even before creating me and and after creating me i become everything he already know i will become AND STILL HE STILL CALLS IT MY FREEDOM OF CHOICE. 1 Like |
Re: If Rapture Took Place On A Sunday:70% Left Behind by shadeyinka(m): 9:24am On Apr 24, 2017 |
frank317: Point of correction: Your coming to the world wasn't by creation but by procreation through the choices your parents made. If they chose to abort you, you will not be here. If your Mum married someone else other than your Dad, you will not be here. Intact, you are here simply because one spermatozoa out of 6 million fused with a particular ovum which happened to the one ovulation pushedbout at that beautiful time. Now that you are here, you make your own choices. But the creator of time can reverse, pause or forward time to know what kind of choices YOU will ultimately make. Its your choice, but He has the privilege of "bending time". Anyone who can understand the concept of time-travel in science fictions will understand this. |
Re: If Rapture Took Place On A Sunday:70% Left Behind by frank317: 9:55am On Apr 24, 2017 |
shadeyinka: lol... God is no longer my creator? now we are getting somewhere Now that you have accepted that God is not my creator... of course I will make my own choice. It has got nothin to do with any creator. Since you have already acknowledge the fact that God seeing my tomorrow has no significant effect in my life. Can we the conclude that his foreknowledge is COMPLETELY useless to us? Its meaningless and pointless to both God and us. God's foreknowledge is like one having a skill that is usless to him. |
Re: If Rapture Took Place On A Sunday:70% Left Behind by shadeyinka(m): 4:31pm On Apr 24, 2017 |
frank317: You can think whatever you will, the truth is unmovable. |
Re: If Rapture Took Place On A Sunday:70% Left Behind by frank317: 4:46pm On Apr 24, 2017 |
shadeyinka: I am the one who should be telling you this. Stop confusing people with meaningless, unreasonable, beliefs. If u had brought out ur time to think deep u would know that u have just been unreasonable. What u are doing it trying to explain to me that God is a married bachelor. And u think because u have ascribed the title God to an idea in ur head, u can tell me that he is a married bachelor. You can tell me he sees the future, knows me before i was born,and created me to become what he knows, yet the choice is mine to become what God knows i will become. And the saddest thing is u call this jargon the truth. may your God really help u. Amen. 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: If Rapture Took Place On A Sunday:70% Left Behind by shadeyinka(m): 8:46pm On Apr 24, 2017 |
frank317: You have nothing to gain by your preachings. You don't have any hope after this life, yet you spend your precious time convincing people to become like you. Ignorance they say is bliss. If you claim you know, leave us the ignorant ones at least to enjoy our lives and our hopes. Do you know that a criminal never appreciates suffering ALONE. They always prefare to endure their punishment with others (even if they have to lure or trick others) into it. Same with a person on his way to Hell...they need company. Some preach tirelessly to make sure that many are like them just like Lucifer their Father and Boss. If you don't have anything to contribute, drop the thread. |
Re: If Rapture Took Place On A Sunday:70% Left Behind by frank317: 9:26pm On Apr 24, 2017 |
shadeyinka: U have hope because u believe in some meaningless jargon about an idea u made up in ur head... I don't jealous u. U are now asking me to leave u, when u guys won't let us be. This is exactly how u guys disturb 'unbelievers' in every nook and cranny of the country, paying little attention to people's privacy. Now Ur shitty belief is being challenged and questioned u are begging to be left alone. Isn't it no longer ur God given duty to preach to the world? U want to preach but u don't want to be questioned. What are u afraid of. Are u no longer in contact with the creator of the world? A simple question, how is it possible that God saw my future and knows the outcome of my action even before creating me, yet this is not Predestination, u are running round and round. Answer or keep quiet about ur fake Christianity. 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: If Rapture Took Place On A Sunday:70% Left Behind by shadeyinka(m): 5:51am On Apr 25, 2017 |
If frank317: What else can one expect of an errand boy! SMH |
Re: If Rapture Took Place On A Sunday:70% Left Behind by frank317: 6:53am On Apr 25, 2017 |
shadeyinka:Lol... Oga, you were giving off reasonable intelligence until u got cornered. U haven't really given a deep thought to this foreknowledge/Predestination thing have u? Explain to me why u think God, created me with a foreknowledge of all my actions. I mean every single one of them. I didn't even know myself but the creator has every knowledge of me before making me and giving me choice to do what he already knows i will do. I wouldn't do otherwise with the choicooo. Just what the creator knows. Please explain why you think this is different from Predestination. The creator is even a good actor... He acts surprised,angry, at what he already knows. He sends u to talk to me to change despite knowing i will never change. He blames me for going to hell despite knowing i was doomed for hell even before creating me. Explain this to me... Ask God to give u the wisdom to open my eyes. |
Re: If Rapture Took Place On A Sunday:70% Left Behind by shadeyinka(m): 12:24pm On Apr 25, 2017 |
frank317: I used to serve your master till I got my Freedom and Independence from him. I know his tactics, you are just an errand boy...good luck. |
Re: If Rapture Took Place On A Sunday:70% Left Behind by frank317: 1:31pm On Apr 25, 2017 |
shadeyinka: My master must be greater than your master... is that why u are so afraid of him. Oga, leave imaginary things, trust me, it will help u stop sounding like this. All the best bro... 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: If Rapture Took Place On A Sunday:70% Left Behind by shadeyinka(m): 1:54pm On Apr 25, 2017 |
frank317: I don't blame you for your choice of 'Master'. We always submit to the one we think is stronger. But since Light is the destroyer of darkness, I am glad I belong finally to the Light. Stay I'm your darkness if you will, its your choice |
Re: If Rapture Took Place On A Sunday:70% Left Behind by frank317: 2:42pm On Apr 25, 2017 |
shadeyinka:Sorry to burst Ur bubbles.... I am my own master. If that's too big for you and your God... I can't help u. U are allowing false imagination to control u... That's quite sad. 1 Like |
Re: If Rapture Took Place On A Sunday:70% Left Behind by shadeyinka(m): 2:48pm On Apr 25, 2017 |
frank317: You are!!? LOL Your great is your blindfolds Two fish were swimming when they saw a piece of meat dangling before them. The younger fish darted toward it with an open mouth. The older fish cried out, “Stop! You can’t see it, but there is a hook inside that meat. It is connected by an invisible line to a pole outside the water. There is a man holding the pole. If you eat the meat, the hook will catch in your jaw and the man will pull you out of the water. He will cut you open with a knife, roast you on a fire and eat you. Then he will throw your remains to his cat.” The young fish stopped. The two of them swam away. But when the young fish was alone, he thought to himself, “Let me investigate for myself how accurate these claims are.” He went back to the meat, swam around it, above and below it. He swam as far as he could in widening circles around the meat. After a long search, he said to himself, “I’ve looked far and wide, and I haven’t found any sign of a man, a pole, a knife, a fire or a cat. In fact, I’ve found no trace of anything outside this water we live in. These must just be stories.” He went back to the meat and ate it. The hook caught in his jaw, he felt himself being yanked out of the water. He saw a pole, a man and a knife, but at that point his knowledge was useless. LESSON: So is the TRUTH of the Endtime. Some of it is beyond our comprehension. Many people can neither see Hell fire nor Satan who is enticing them with sin and worldliness. Beware! There is DEATH in the POT. May God let us heed to the truth in John 3:3-7, 1 John 3:8-10 while it is useful to us. Amen May mercy & grace meet you in Jesus Name I pray. |
Re: If Rapture Took Place On A Sunday:70% Left Behind by hahn(m): 6:52pm On Apr 25, 2017 |
shadeyinka: Has it ever occurred to you that that phone getting stolen is probably god's plan? |
Re: If Rapture Took Place On A Sunday:70% Left Behind by frank317: 7:52pm On Apr 25, 2017 |
shadeyinka: Nice story but u made it sound like the hook that killed the fish was invisible... What is it God really hiding? He is the creator what stops him from being clear? Funny u think urself as the senior brother in the story.... Yet you run round and round and can't reply my questions. And what makes u so sure u are not the little fish in that story... I think u are. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: If Rapture Took Place On A Sunday:70% Left Behind by hahn(m): 7:58pm On Apr 25, 2017 |
frank317: Wait, do fish eat meat? ![]() |
Re: If Rapture Took Place On A Sunday:70% Left Behind by shadeyinka(m): 10:30pm On Apr 25, 2017 |
hahn: Very funny. ..but brilliant conclusion! ![]() |
Re: If Rapture Took Place On A Sunday:70% Left Behind by shadeyinka(m): 10:32pm On Apr 25, 2017 |
frank317:Can't you appreciate a short story? Its just a story... |
Re: If Rapture Took Place On A Sunday:70% Left Behind by shadeyinka(m): 10:34pm On Apr 25, 2017 |
hahn: They eat Pounded yam with bitter leaf soup. The meat is just an appetizer.... Like our salad! |
Re: If Rapture Took Place On A Sunday:70% Left Behind by frank317: 11:03pm On Apr 25, 2017 |
shadeyinka: I appreciated it by starting my response with 'nice story's Then i went ahead to analyze it based on my perception of ur motive behind the story |
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