The Jews never knew who the real creator was and worshiped the gods of the surrounding cities..they only knew when they went to Babylon to learn, to prosper..The name of the God the Jews reverence is no other than Marduk, the Lugal Dimmer Ankia...the divine king of heaven and earth. read Isiah 45:1-10..

Exodus6:3

3and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as El Shaddai, but by My name, YHWH, I did not make Myself known to them.

Funny thing is that Yahweh is all over the place before Moses turns up.

MuttleyLaff:
I do understand your confident and forceful statement, now that you've re-stated it clearly and in detail
I am not trying to fall out with you
but when Melchizedek used that phrase, who was he referring it to?

YHWH

But you wrote that ''Firstly, when the bible mention Elyon, it menas YHWH''
Do you see how confusing initially your comment was, especially when we both know that Elyon isnt a title exclusively used for YHWH
as it is equally used for El or Baal by the Canaanites

I see. Sorry for the confusion passed on. I mean 'refers to'.

PastorAIO:
Exodus6:3

3and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as El Shaddai, but by My name, YHWH, I did not make Myself known to them.

Funny thing is that Yahweh is all over the place before Moses turns up.

Which shows that the name Yahweh was not the discussion. They knew it then. Moses was evidently concerned about the assurance that this God will live up to His words. Yahweh was then showing that the full meaning of the name was going to be shown in action.

This will help: https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002391?q=exodus+3%3A14&p=par

sonmvayina:
The Jews never knew who the real creator was and worshiped the gods of the surrounding cities..

Yes, true and because they became apostates

sonmvayina:
they only knew when they went to Babylon to learn, to prosper..

God used the pagan King Cyrus of Persia to deliver Israel/Jews
Its not the first time and certainly not the last for God using unbelievers to deliver or free His people under bondage
Unlike Pharaoh and Egypt who were unwilling in being aides and freeing the Israelites,
King Cyrus after conquering Babylon not only played his role in freeing the Jews
but also ordered the rebuilding of Yahweh's temple

sonmvayina:
The name of the God the Jews reverence is no other than Marduk, the Lugal Dimmer Ankia...
the divine king of heaven and earth. read Isiah 45:1-10...

Isaiah 45:1-25 is God, having His personal and/or official name repeatedly used in addressing Cyrus and not Marduk or whsatnot

PastorAIO:
Exodus 6:3
3and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as El Shaddai, but by My name, YHWH, I did not make Myself known to them.

Funny thing is that Yahweh is all over the place before Moses turns up.

"Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered,
"before Abraham was born, I AM!"

Jesus told them:
"Truly, I tell all of you emphatically, before there was an Abraham, I AM!"
- John 8:58

The ''I AM'' designation is reminiscent of God's personal and/or official name, ''Yahweh''
which means ''One who always was, is, and will be''
Funny thing is Yahweh is not just only all over the place before Moses turns up
but is even before Abraham was born

JMAN05:
YHWH

Very doubtful he was referring to YHWH
He never mentioned true God's personal and/or official name
this was left to Abraham, a few verses after,
to correct who exactly, he, Abraham made a vow to by adding YHWH before mentioning El Elyon

JMAN05:
I see. Sorry for the confusion passed on. I mean 'refers to'.

JMAN05:
Which shows that the name Yahweh was not the discussion.
They knew it then

It was the identity of Jesus, that was in question in the discussion
It was who is Jesus, that questioned in the discussion
and no, none of the three knew then that Yahweh (i.e. I AM) was God's personal and/or official name

JMAN05:
Moses was evidently concerned about the assurance that this God will live up to His words.
Yahweh was then showing that the full meaning of the name was going to be shown in action.

This will help: h t tps://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002391?q=exodus+3%3A14&p=par

Knowing God's personal and/or official name shows the depth and kind of relationship with God the person has with Him.

It hadnt got to the stage and/or level of relationship for God to introduce Himself by His personal and/or official name to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, thats why.

This even happens up till now, where people know each other for years
but havent gotten to a deep, personal or intimate level enough for them to be calling each other by their personal names or first names
We all accept, that sometimes too much and too early familiarity breeds contempt

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob not only didnt know God by Yahweh (i.e. His personal and/or official name)
but also they and the Israelites/Jews didnt know God as Father too

Thats why the first thing Jesus did to correct this sense of detachment to God or lack of intimacy with God
was when asked by the disciples to teach them how to pray, He, in Matthew 6:9 said:
''Pray, then, in this way: 'Our Father who is in heaven

No one previous to this Matthew 6:9 event, had ever addressed God before, as Father

JMAN05:


Which shows that the name Yahweh was not the discussion. They knew it then. Moses was evidently concerned about the assurance that this God will live up to His words. Yahweh was then showing that the full meaning of the name was going to be shown in action.

This will help: https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002391?q=exodus+3%3A14&p=par

"By my name Yahweh I did not make myself known to them" but the name Yahweh is not the discussion. Wedone!

Some people are just too myopic. A God calls Cyrus his servant and all of sudden he is now a pagan...history records that the God of Cyrus was Marduk. And according to the Enuma Elish, Marduk is the creator of all and the God the Jews worshiped..
They went to Babylon to learn.. That is when Ezra started writing the book of the law, Genesis, Exodus.. Etc.

sonmvayina:
Some people are just too myopic. A God calls Cyrus his servant and all of sudden he is now a pagan...history records that the God of Cyrus was Marduk. And according to the Enuma Elish, Marduk is the creator of all and the God the Jews worshiped..
They went to Babylon to learn.. That is when Ezra started writing the book of the law, Genesis, Exodus.. Etc.

tell me more

sonmvayina:
Some people are just too myopic

Some people are just too good at regurgitating sickly stench that makes you want to vomit and rightly so throw up

sonmvayina:
A God calls Cyrus his servant and all of sudden he is now a pagan...

Notwithstanding his beneficence, Cyrus was a pagan in sentiment and practice

sonmvayina:
history records that the God of Cyrus was Marduk

The bible records this fact and truth too

sonmvayina:
And according to the Enuma Elish, Marduk is the creator of all and the God the Jews worshiped

¹The word that Yahweh spoke concerning Babylon, concerning the land of the Chaldeans, by Jeremiah the prophet.
²This is what the Yahweh says:
''Tell the whole world, and keep nothing back.
Raise a signal flag to tell everyone that Babylon will fall!
Her images and idols will be shattered.
Her gods Bel and Marduk will be utterly disgraced
- Jeremiah 50:1-2

⁴⁴And I will punish Marduk, the god of Babylon,
and take out of his mouth what he has swallowed
The nations will no longer come and worship him.
The wall of Babylon has fallen!
⁴⁵"Come out of her, my people!
Run for your lives!
Run from the fierce anger of the Yahweh
- Jeremiah 51:44-45

Marduk is the creator of all and the God the Jews worshiped, indeed.

sonmvayina:
They went to Babylon to learn..

They went to Babylon to learn alright.
They involuntarily went to Babylon as captives and allowed to return back after 70 years
70 years sure is a long time to learn quite a lot, I would agree, pfft

sonmvayina:
.. That is when Ezra started writing the book of the law, Genesis, Exodus.. Etc.

⁶This Ezra was a scribe who was well versed in the Law of Moses, which the LORD, the God of Israel, had given to the people of Israel.
He came up to Jerusalem from Babylon, and the king gave him everything he asked for,
because the gracious hand of the LORD his God was on him
¹⁰For Ezra had set his heart to study the Law of the Yahweh, and to do it,
and to teach those decrees and regulations to the people of Israel
- Ezra 7:6,10

SMH, some people are just too bent on making mischief sha
they have to easily, without qualms, just like that, resort to churning out disinformation

hopefulLandlord:
tell me more

I will eat my socks, if he tells more by posting and pasting here where God explicitly called Cyrus His servant

MuttleyLaff:
Very doubtful he was referring to YHWH
He never mentioned true God's personal and/or official name
this was left to Abraham, a few verses after,
to correct who exactly, he, Abraham made a vow to by adding YHWH before mentioning El Elyon

The only Elyon identified in the scriptures is YHWH. Ps 83:18. That should be clear.

It was the identity of Jesus, that was in question in the discussion
It was who is Jesus, that questioned in the discussion
and no, none of the three knew then that Yahweh (i.e. I AM) was God's personal and/or official name

Just wondering how it is about Jesus. Explain.

2. No, they knew the name before that meeting with Moses. Gen 18:3

Knowing God's personal and/or official name shows the depth and kind of relationship with God the person has with Him.

It hadnt got to the stage and/or level of relationship for God to introduce Himself by His personal and/or official name to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, thats why.

This even happens up till now, where people know each other for years
but havent gotten to a deep, personal or intimate level enough for them to be calling each other by their personal names or first names
We all accept, that sometimes too much and too early familiarity breeds contempt

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob not only didnt know God by Yahweh (i.e. His personal and/or official name)

You didn't go through the link I gave.

Abraham was called Gods friend. No one will rightly say that such does not entail an intimate relationship. That wouldn't be reasonable.

Secondly, he called God by His personal name. Gen 18:27. Even Lot, Gen 19:18

but also they and the Israelites/Jews didnt know God as Father too

Thats why the first thing Jesus did to correct this sense of detachment to God or lack of intimacy with God
was when asked by the disciples to teach them how to pray, He, in Matthew 6:9 said:
''Pray, then, in this way: 'Our Father who is in heaven

No one previous to this Matthew 6:9 event, had ever addressed God before, as Father

I will still disagree with this one too. Isaiah 64:8. Also John 8:41. This shows that the Jews knew God as father prior to matt 6:9.

MuttleyLaff:

The bible records this fact and truth too

The nations will no longer come and worship him.
The wall of Babylon has fallen!
⁴⁵"Come out of her, my people!
Run for your lives!
Run from the fierce anger of the Yahweh[/i]
- Jeremiah 51:44-45

sonmvayina:
Some people are just too myopic. A God calls Cyrus his servant and all of sudden he is now a pagan...history records that the God of Cyrus was Marduk. And according to the Enuma Elish, Marduk is the creator of all and the God the Jews worshiped..
They went to Babylon to learn.. That is when Ezra started writing the book of the law, Genesis, Exodus.. Etc.

Just one small point of correction for you both. Actually Cyrus did not worship Marduk. Cyrus was a worshipper of Ahura Mazda.

But there is a point where Somnaviya is a bit correct. Much of Judaism after the exile to Babylon was modelled on the religion of Ahura Mazda.

Ahura Mazda was a single creator God was no peer. It is from his religion that the whole notion of a final day of Judgement came from. They brought the idea that History was an epic battle between the forces of Light and Darkness. Almost all of the most recognisable aspects of Christianity and Judaism and Islam can be seen to be derived from the religion of Ahura Mazda even down to the use of phrases like King of Kings, Lord of Lords, in Parsee it is Shahanshah.

So please, the bible never said Marduk was the God of Cyrus.

MuttleyLaff:


I will eat my socks, if he tells more by posting and pasting here where God explicitly called Cyrus His servant

1Thus says the Lord to his anointed ( Messiah ), to Cyrus, whose right hand I have grasped to subdue nations before him and strip kings of their robes, to open doors before him— and the gates shall not be closed:

Isaiah Chapter 45 verse 1.

hopefulLandlord:


tell me more

Watch Enki35 production videos on YouTube, she did a good historical analyses of all the Gods of antiquity...

JMAN05:
The only Elyon identified in the scriptures is YHWH. Ps 83:18.
That should be clear

That should be clear about what?

Trust me, when Mechizedek said El Elyon, he necessarily wasnt referring to YHWH

Now, hear this, who between Jesus and Satan is ''morning star'' identified with?

JMAN05:
Just wondering how it is about Jesus. Explain.

Sorry for the confusion,
I meant to type, it was the identity of God Moses was bringing to the Israelites, that was questioned, in the discussion
It was who is God that questioned in the discussion
and so Moses was asking God how he should reply to the Israelites when asked:
''What is the name of the God that sent you to us'' (i.e. Gen 3:13)

JMAN05:
2. No, they knew the name before that meeting with Moses. Gen 18:3

I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name the LORD I did not make myself fully known to them.
- Exodus 6:3

Who are ''they'' who knew the name before that meeting with Moses. Gen 18:3?

According to the bible, God in Gen 18:3, appeared to Abraham as Adonai (i.e. Lord)
Lord, here meaning Owner, its signifies ownership, same way a landlord signifies being the owner of a house or landed property
so God appeared to Abraham as an Owner of Abraham

Whenever we come across ''Lord'' and/or ''LORD'' in the bible, each means and signifies different things
The ''LORD'' full capitalisation is a fill-in for the word Yahweh,
this is because the Jews to-date feel Yahweh, God's personal and/or official name is too holy or sacred for them to directly utter and/or outrightly write down
and that's why until lately, in some bible versions, instead of seeing Yahweh or Jehovah, we see ''LORD'' instead replacing the name

Lastly, reiterating according to Exodus 6:3, God appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as El Shaddai only (i.e. God Almighty)
God never revealed Himself or His name to as Yahweh, YHWH or Jehovah

JMAN05:
You didn't go through the link I gave

Believe me I did, went through it like one using a chewing stick

JMAN05:
Abraham was called Gods friend. No one will rightly say that such does not entail an intimate relationship. That wouldn't be reasonable.

We all have people we call friends and these friends are yet to know our names
There are different levels of intimate relationship or friendship

JMAN05:
Secondly, he called God by His personal name. Gen 18:27. Even Lot, Gen 19:18

I have, above, touched on the slight oversight you're making with Gen 18:27 and Gen 19:18
Adonai is not a name of God, just as landlord is not a name of a person

JMAN05:
I will still disagree with this one too. Isaiah 64:8. Also John 8:41. This shows that the Jews knew God as father prior to matt 6:9.

and in the wilderness.
There you saw how the LORD your God carried you, as a father carries his son, all the way you went until you reached this place."
- Deuteronomy 1:32

Is this how you repay the LORD, you foolish and silly people?
Is not He your Father who has bought you? He has made you and established you
- Deuteronomy 32:6

OK, sorry, and I give you this one.
It's my bad, I slipped, not only John 8:41 which I so much loved but also Deuteronomy 1:31 Deuteronomy 32:6 vindicates you

PastorAIO:
Just one small point of correction for you both. Actually Cyrus did not worship Marduk

Just one small point of correction for you
Actually Cyrus did worship Marduk.
Cyrus' admission is found in the ''The Cyrus Cylinder'', a cuneiform tablet now in the British Museum

PastorAIO:
Cyrus was a worshipper of Ahura Mazda

PastorAIO:
But there is a point where Somnaviya is a bit correct. Much of Judaism after the exile to Babylon was modelled on the religion of Ahura Mazda

Zoroastrianism
- why not just lay it out and say Zoroastrianism, instead of hiding behind a ''modelled on the religion of Ahura Mazda'' cloak

PastorAIO:
Ahura Mazda was a single creator God was no peer

What is Ahura Mazda's personal and/or official name?
What is the meaning of Ahura Mazda's personal and/or official?

Yahweh, the personal and/or official name of the self-existing all-powerful authority influence (i.e. God) is the single creator, no peer and not Ahura Mazda

PastorAIO:
It is from his religion that the whole notion of a final day of Judgement came from.
They brought the idea that History was an epic battle between the forces of Light and Darkness.

Almost all of the most recognisable aspects of Christianity and Judaism and Islam can be seen to be derived from the religion of Ahura Mazda even down to the use of phrases like King of Kings, Lord of Lords, in Parsee it is Shahanshah

For anyone who cares to know, the only religion Yahweh is interested in, is found in James 1:27

Credit to Zoroaster for giving Ahura Mazda a leg up and inventing Zoroastrianism

The name of Yahweh has been called upon and worshipped before the arrival on the scene of Abraham and/or the Jews (i.e. Gen 4:26)
so Yahweh, the self-existing all-powerful authority influence (i.e. God) always has been and is, before an Ahura Mazda vitiated by magi

Isnt it intriguing that some Magi or wisemen, suspiciously Zoroastrians and/or zoroastrianist priests, came to worship God?

PastorAIO:
So please, the bible never said Marduk was the God of Cyrus

History etcetera says Marduk was the God of Cyrus

PastorAIO:
Thus says the Lord to his anointed ( Messiah ), to Cyrus, whose right hand I have grasped to subdue nations before him and strip kings of their robes, to open doors before him— and the gates shall not be closed:
Isaiah Chapter 45 verse 1

I said where God explicitly called Cyrus His servant
but we've now resorted to grasping at straws
A man in peril of drowning will desperately latch on to whatsoever comes next to hand
SMH, since suddenly when did Mashiach, a hebrew word or Christ, the English translation, start to mean servant?

MuttleyLaff:
Just one small point of correction for you
Actually Cyrus did worship Marduk.
Cyrus' admission is found in the ''The Cyrus Cylinder'', a cuneiform tablet now in the British Museum

Inside all that you wrote the only thing worth responding to is this Cyrus Cylinder brouhaha.

Cyrus had a policy of live and let live. He allowed everybody to go back to their homes and worship their gods again. Those whose cults had been destroyed he helped rebuild. For example, he helped the Jews to go back to Israel and to rebuild their temple, and they Jews were so delighted that they called him a messiah. However they were not the only ones that he helped.

The cult of Marduk was similarly delighted with him. And am ready to predict that if some new text were discovered of some other tribe that he helped it would probably celebrate him as the messiah (or whatever equiavalent in their culture) of their God.

The King of Babylon had neglected the local cult of Marduk in Babylon, and it was the priesthood of Marduk ( think of them as a political faction within Babylon) that invited Cyrus to come and depose the Babylonian empire. When Cyrus arrived the gates of the city were flung open and it was a bloodless conquest.
Cyrus was probably the only conqueror in the whole history of mankind to have done it so easily and without the usual loss of life. He was a man admired all over the world by all nations and all religious cults. He truly set the people free.

In my opinion he was the greatest man who ever lived. The same way he was lauded in the bible is the same way that he is lauded in the Cyrus cylinder. Cyrus is as much a worshipper of Marduk as he was a worshipper of Yahweh. He helped rebuild the Marduk cult after neglect, he helped rebuild the yahweh cult after their exile, he helped many people all over the world rebuild their cults. That didn't make him a member of the cults.

I haven't read the Cyrus cylinder but I've read summaries of its contents and nowhere did anything I read say that he was a Marduk worshipper.

The text on the Cylinder praises Cyrus, sets out his genealogy and portrays him as a king from a line of kings. The Babylonian king Nabonidus, who was defeated and deposed by Cyrus, is denounced as an impious oppressor of the people of Babylonia and his low-born origins are implicitly contrasted to Cyrus's kingly heritage. The victorious Cyrus is portrayed as having been chosen by the chief Babylonian god Marduk to restore peace and order to the Babylonians. The text states that Cyrus was welcomed by the people of Babylon as their new ruler and entered the city in peace. It appeals to Marduk to protect and help Cyrus and his son Cambyses. It extols Cyrus as a benefactor of the citizens of Babylonia who improved their lives, repatriated displaced people and restored temples and cult sanctuaries across Mesopotamia and elsewhere in the region. It concludes with a description of how Cyrus repaired the city wall of Babylon and found a similar inscription placed there by an earlier king.[3]

- Wikipedia

Cyrus was such a cool guy that everybody was claiming him. Marduk's priests were claiming him, Yahweh's prophets were claiming him. But the fact remains that he was a worshiper of Ahura Mazda. I know that such a fact would pain someone like you, but sorry sorry o. He was a benefactor to Marduk, he was a benefactor to Yahweh. Yahweh didn't give him anything, he gave Yahweh his temple back. The giver is superior.

PastorAIO:
Inside all that you wrote the only thing worth responding to is this Cyrus Cylinder brouhaha

At least we can always count on you to be so predictable coming out with a line this that Cyrus Cylinder is brouhaha
Cyrus Cylinder brouhaha? SMH

PastorAIO:
Cyrus had a policy of live and let live. He allowed everybody to go back to their homes and worship their gods again. Those whose cults had been destroyed he helped rebuild. For example, he helped the Jews to go back to Israel and to rebuild their temple, and they Jews were so delighted that they called him a messiah. However they were not the only ones that he helped.

The cult of Marduk was similarly delighted with him. And am ready to predict that if some new text were discovered of some other tribe that he helped it would probably celebrate him as the messiah (or whatever equiavalent in their culture) of their God.

The King of Babylon had neglected the local cult of Marduk in Babylon, and it was the priesthood of Marduk ( think of them as a political faction within Babylon) that invited Cyrus to come and depose the Babylonian empire. When Cyrus arrived the gates of the city were flung open and it was a bloodless conquest.
Cyrus was probably the only conqueror in the whole history of mankind to have done it so easily and without the usual loss of life. He was a man admired all over the world by all nations and all religious cults. He truly set the people free.

In my opinion he was the greatest man who ever lived. The same way he was lauded in the bible is the same way that he is lauded in the Cyrus cylinder. Cyrus is as much a worshipper of Marduk as he was a worshipper of Yahweh. He helped rebuild the Marduk cult after neglect, he helped rebuild the yahweh cult after their exile, he helped many people all over the world rebuild their cults. That didn't make him a member of the cults

- Wikipedia.
I haven't read the Cyrus cylinder
but I've read summaries of its contents and nowhere did anything I read say that he was a Marduk worshipper

Please go read the Cyrus cylinder

PastorAIO:
Cyrus was such a cool guy that everybody was claiming him. Marduk's priests were claiming him, Yahweh's prophets were claiming him. But the fact remains that he was a worshiper of Ahura Mazda

He claimed in the Cyrus cylinder that he got his mandate from Marduk, the god of Babylon

PastorAIO:
I know that such a fact would pain someone like you, but sorry sorry o.

Pain? Pain ke?
My pain threshold is too high for you to hit with any of your pinocchio & fantasy write-ups
Besides you think I am a sore loser like you, abeggy go sidon with your pseudo-fact

PastorAIO:
He was a benefactor to Marduk, he was a benefactor to Yahweh. Yahweh didn't give him anything, he gave Yahweh his temple back

He was a benefactor to YHWH, no doubt
YHWH empowered Cyrus, gave him the authority and necessary means
same way YHWH did for and/or to Pharaoh, giving him too authority and necessary means to be of service

PastorAIO:
The giver is superior

True, as Giver pass giver, there is giver who is superior and Giver who is Superior

MuttleyLaff:
At least we can always count on you to be so predictable coming out with a line this that Cyrus Cylinder is brouhaha
Cyrus Cylinder brouhaha? SMH

I never said Cyrus Cylinder is a brouhaha. I said you are making a brouhaha about the Cyrus Cylinder. Please do a quick google check to find out what brouhaha means.

Please go read the Cyrus cylinder

He claimed in the Cyrus cylinder that he got his mandate from Marduk, the god of Babylon

I've read it. I didn't see anything that said He was a worshiper of Marduk.
Before you go on about his getting a mandate from Marduk, do you actually believe that Marduk exists?

It is a known fact that Cyrus was invited into Babylon by the Priesthood of the cult of Marduk. That is why the city gates were flung open, and the citizens welcomed him with open arms. Is that what you mean by a 'mandate' from Marduk? Cyrus was a Persian. Marduk is a Babylonian God. How/Why would a persian be a worshipper of a Babylonian deity, especially when the Persian had Conquered Babylon?

He was a benefactor to YHWH, no doubt
YHWH empowered Cyrus, gave him the authority and necessary means
same way YHWH did for and/or to Pharaoh, giving him too authority and necessary means to be of service

True, as Giver pass giver, there is giver who is superior and Giver who is Superior

Cyrus was a benefactor to all the peoples, and the religious cults, he met.

Is Yahweh the same as Marduk? Because a minute ago you said he got his mandate from Marduk and now you said Yhwh gave him the authority. These are basically the same thing so you are saying that Yahweh and Marduk are one.

Who were the first people in recorded history to refuse to worship any image of God/gods? That's right the Persian. In Avesta religion they forbid the use of temples altars, images etc etc etc. I wonder where the Jews got that Idea from?

The customs which I know the Persians to observe are the following: they have no images of the gods, no temples nor altars, and consider the use of them a sign of folly. This comes, I think, from their not believing the gods to have the same nature with men, as the Greeks imagine.


- Herodotus on the religion of the Persians. http://www.ancient.eu/article/149/

Now tell me, How can a man who does not believe in the worshiping of idols become a follower of Marduk, a religion that involves the worshiping of idols in a temple?

Judaism is a derivation of Avesta mixed in with the Hebrew religion that they had before the exile to Babylon.

The black Hebrew Israelite movement is purely a CULT. It is not Christian, It is not Jewish, Hebrew, anything!..
They pick and choose scriptures as "proof-texts" to support their weak platform.
They believe in celebrating some Jewish feast days, and a strict Saturday sabbath, but that means nothing if all is not recognized--therefore no Jew in them. They mention Jesus, and his crucifixion, but it doesn't do anything--as they do not believe in redemption or the Triune God that Christians believe in.
They have no salvation message, no way to heaven/hell-except they are one of many cults that claim they are the "remnant" church. They read the Torah, but for some reason mention Jesus--who was not in the torah. Essentially there are no beliefs--only what they don't believe. An over emphasis on worrying about avoiding paganism. I find this "religion" to be purely made up--and a form of racist anti white, grasping of self-importance.


1. The Apocrypha is not an accepted section of the Bible. If you haven't read it--Do!! Absurd stories, especially the book of Thomas. So why do they find importance here, if this is a "new Testament" group of writings?

2. Their primary proof-text doesn't prove anything about European Slave trade. Deuteronomy 28:68 gives no hint of the future slaves taken to the west from Africa.

3. The Egyptians--slave holders of the Hebrews-- were of many races. Typically the Hebrew slaves were represented with Red hair, and Mediterranean Olive skin
not---not--black!!!!

There were other races mixed in, but Egyptians were not particularly concerned with skin color

4. The Southern Poverty Law center--a group that helps especially blacks in the south has warned against this group, that they are becoming militant and racist. Some action is brewing to be taken against them.

5. I am a Christian with Jews in my family..I know my Bible well, know Judaism well. It pains me to see my lost black friends latch on to this Cult for a place to belong. It preys on ignorance, and gullibility. It is sad--Just read the Bible--and read commentaries by scholars who have more education than you--in ancient languages, the Bible in context, etc. Read from various versions of the Bible (some Original translations aside from the KJV include the English Standard Version, The New American Standard Version, and I find so interesting, and Independent translation by a non-Christian translator--by Willis Barnstone--Title--The New Covenant, and title--Poetry of the Bible--covers it all in a translation that is original and not slanted in any way.

This post fits elsewhere, along with BHI writings, but is important to keep the many Cults in our midst strong in our minds--Morman, Jehova's Witness, Seventh Day Adventist, Some branches of Roman Catholic--Not all Roman Catholics---please!!!!! But the one which believes in a "Holy Quartet" (Father, Son, Holy Spirit, Mary) just to name a few.....

Come quickly, Lord Jesus!!!!

PastorAIO:
I never said Cyrus Cylinder is a brouhaha

Oh yes you did

PastorAIO:
I said you are making a brouhaha about the Cyrus Cylinder

No, you didnt say I am making a brouhaha about anything
You said:
''Inside all that you wrote the only thing worth responding to is this Cyrus Cylinder brouhaha

PastorAIO:
Please do a quick google check to find out what brouhaha means.

I know what brouhaha is without having to resort to a google check.
Its you who DONT recognise how you improperly used it in your construct

PastorAIO:
I've read it. I didn't see anything that said He was a worshiper of Marduk.

O ma se ooo. SMH for you. Oniro jatijati
If you really did read it, you would have read him showing reverence and adoration for Marduk
Please do a quick google double check to find out what worshipper means,
after that, then go and properly read the Cyrus Cylinder, particularly lines 12, 14-17, 20, 23, 26, 34-35 and 44 to see how Cyrus reverenced & worshipped Marduk

PastorAIO:
Before you go on about his getting a mandate from Marduk, do you actually believe that Marduk exists?

You just have to do a tangential here, isnt it?
OK, yes, I actually believe that Marduk exists
''So tan? Bo si ngbangban ko wa se ife inu e''

PastorAIO:
It is a known fact that Cyrus was invited into Babylon by the Priesthood of the cult of Marduk.
That is why the city gates were flung open, and the citizens welcomed him with open arms.
Is that what you mean by a 'mandate' from Marduk?

Partly and also went by Cyrus' admission in the Cyrus Cylinder, where he said Marduk gave him the mandate etcetera
(i.e. Cyrus Cylinder lines 12, 14-17)

PastorAIO:
Cyrus was a Persian. Marduk is a Babylonian God.
How/Why would a persian be a worshipper of a Babylonian deity, especially when the Persian had Conquered Babylon?

Because there is no nation which so readily adopts foreign customs as the persians
But why ask me anyway?
Ask Cyrus, not me. I didnt pay homage to Marduk. He, Cyrus did

PastorAIO:
Cyrus was a benefactor to all the peoples, and the religious cults, he met

PastorAIO:
Is Yahweh the same as Marduk?

No, Yahweh is not the same as Marduk
but all that is Yahweh's is attributed to Marduk

PastorAIO:
Because a minute ago you said he got his mandate from Marduk and now you said Yhwh gave him the authority.
These are basically the same thing so you are saying that Yahweh and Marduk are one

Glad and pleased you realised that happening
He wrote in the Cyrus Cylinder that he got his mandate from Marduk, when the truth and actual fact is that it was given by YHWH
People often mix YHWH up with other gods (e.g. Marduk)

PastorAIO:
Who were the first people in recorded history to refuse to worship any image of God/gods?
That's right the Persian. In Avesta religion they forbid the use of temples altars, images etc etc etc. I wonder where the Jews got that Idea from?

Yet they worshipped many gods (e.g. the sun and moon, the earth, fire, water, and the winds

PastorAIO:
Now tell me, How can a man who does not believe in the worshiping of idols become a follower of Marduk, a religion that involves the worshiping of idols in a temple?

Cyrus himself said Marduk looked around and checked all the countries, seeking for the upright king of his choice.
Marduk then found and took under his hand Cyrus, king of the city of Anshan etcetera
Please dont spread your ignorance, you really need to read more on Cyrus

PastorAIO:
Judaism is a derivation of Avesta mixed in with the Hebrew religion that they had before the exile to Babylon.

So?
Nothing wrong in ''borrowing'' and/or ''importting''
The irony is that Magi must be privy to some sacred truth & knowledge for them to have journeyed and come to Bethlehem to worship God

MuttleyLaff:

True because Melchizedek didnt know and never acknowledged he is a priest of YHWH
All Melchizedek knew was that he is a priest of El Elyon (i.e. a priest of God, the Most High)
The one and truly El Elyon, whose personal name is Yahweh, Melchizedek doesn't know
and he so unable to recognise El Elyon's name as being good or important enough to mention

Melchizedek was Chief Priest of the "Most High" "EL" or "Elyon" or, if you like, the "ancient of Days" he of the long flowing beard in the white garb, Chief God of the Canannite Pantheon period. It is ridiculous to state that the personal name of EL or Elyon is YHWH. The Tetragrammaton itself stands for that which is un-knowable.

The Ugaritic word "Most High" is also used as designation for ''Baal'' or even for his father ''El,'' the bull-god and father of the Canaanite pantheon.

You see another of your one too many conflating things?

It is quite obvious Abraham's El Elyon is quite distinct from Melchizedek's El Elyon
and this is revealed when Abraham publicly acknowledged Yahweh by stating clearly and without doubt letting it be known that he, Abraham had sworn to Yahweh, God Most High, possessor of heaven and earth

No sir, no conflation here, how can you state that Abraham's "EL" is different from Melchizedek's "EL"??, there was no such thing as "Abraham's EL". Abraham swore to the "Most High" that is "EL" of the Canaanite pantheon. The conflation is that of bible writers assigning the omnipotence of "EL" to the Hebrew deity YHWH. I would also point out that Baal was the vizer of EL, the first among his "Sons", the original "rider of the clouds" whose characteristics are later transposed into the Book of Daniel and appropriated into the New Testament of the person of Jesus of Nazareth, specifically, the Baal attributes of the cycles of life, death and rebirth.

Doesnt change a thing

I would have thought it was quite obvious.

MuttleyLaff:
Oh yes you did

No, you didnt say I am making a brouhaha about anything
You said:
''Inside all that you wrote the only thing worth responding to is this Cyrus Cylinder brouhaha

I know what brouhaha is without having to resort to a google check.
Its you who recognise how you improperly used it in your construct

It's okay, I'll do it for you:

brouhaha
ˈbruːhɑːhɑː/
noun
noun: brouhaha; plural noun: brouhahas

a noisy and overexcited reaction or response to something.
"the brouhaha over those infamous commercials"

A cylinder, being inanimate, cannot make a brouhaha, but an excitable person such as yourself can, and is making brouhaha. Anybody that can understand english will know that this Cyrus Cylinder brouhaha is referring to the person making a brouhaha in reaction to the cylinder, not the cylinder making brouhaha. Sorry to sound so simplistic but it seems that is the only way you can understand.

I'll be back to address the rest.

PastorAIO:
It's okay, I'll do it for you:
Brouhaha ˈbruːhɑːhɑː/
noun
noun: brouhaha; plural noun: brouhahas

a noisy and overexcited reaction or response to something.
"the brouhaha over those infamous commercials"
A cylinder, being inanimate, cannot make a brouhaha, but an excitable person such as yourself can, and is making brouhaha. Anybody that can understand english will know that this Cyrus Cylinder brouhaha is referring to the person making a brouhaha in reaction to the cylinder, not the cylinder making brouhaha. Sorry to sound so simplistic but it seems that is the only way you can understand

"Cyrus' admission is found in the ''The Cyrus Cylinder'', a cuneiform tablet now in the British Museum"
You're such as a drama queen, aren't you, now what in the above, that I typed had to do with brouhaha.

You've just learned the word and you itchingly couldn't wait to use it. Inappropriate usage wouldn't matter or mean anything to you

Hardly anything noisy, or loud, or over-exciting in that simple and plain remark, where "Cyrus Cylinder" was mentioned only one time or reference to it done only once

Cyrus Cylinder is not brouhaha and my one sentence comment about it was not brouhaha

PastorAIO:
I'll be back to address the rest.

and I am and will be waiting for you

Bros, you get sense abeg. Sometimes I look at Nigerians and marvel at the level of illiteracy, how can you be claiming that a religion of a people who didn't have land until 1948 is UNIQUE. These guys have been slaves so long their history is definitely gonna be a sum total of the histories of their masters. I still think this is the reason why it permeates easily tho,they have borrowed from everywhere on earth, every culture possible. And this also explains why a bulk of social phenomena have ready made answers in the Bible, the solutions depend on the time tho, and the Bible requires evangelists to give it time-fit meanings. On its own, the bible is a flawed old book of cultural stories.

MuttleyLaff:
That should be clear about what?

Trust me, when Mechizedek said El Elyon, he necessarily wasnt referring to YHWH

"YHWH, you ALONE are the Elyon over all the earth". That sounds so clear to me.

Now, hear this, who between Jesus and Satan is ''morning star'' identified with?

Can I know the relevance this has to what we are discussing?

Sorry for the confusion,
I meant to type, it was the identity of God Moses was bringing to the Israelites, that was questioned, in the discussion
It was who is God that questioned in the discussion
and so Moses was asking God how he should reply to the Israelites when asked:
''What is the name of the God that sent you to us'' (i.e. Gen 3:13)

I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name the LORD I did not make myself fully known to them.
- Exodus 6:3

Who are ''they'' who knew the name before that meeting with Moses. Gen 18:3?

According to the bible, God in Gen 18:3, appeared to Abraham as Adonai (i.e. Lord)
Lord, here meaning Owner, its signifies ownership, same way a landlord signifies being the owner of a house or landed property
so God appeared to Abraham as an Owner of Abraham

Whenever we come across ''Lord'' and/or ''LORD'' in the bible, each means and signifies different things
The ''LORD'' full capitalisation is a fill-in for the word Yahweh,
this is because the Jews to-date feel Yahweh, God's personal and/or official name is too holy or sacred for them to directly utter and/or outrightly write down
and that's why until lately, in some bible versions, instead of seeing Yahweh or Jehovah, we see ''LORD'' instead replacing the name

The word YHWH should appear there, but I ll make more research on that. However, there are other verses that shows that ansxient servants knew the name before Moses meeting with God. See Gen 21:33; 22:14; 24:3; 24:7; 16:2, 13 etc

Lastly, reiterating according to Exodus 6:3, God appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as El Shaddai only (i.e. God Almighty)
God never revealed Himself or His name to as Yahweh, YHWH or Jehovah

Believe me I did, went through it Iike one using a chewing stick

We all have people we call friends and these friends are yet to know our names
There are different levels of intimate relationship or friendship

Your position isn't consistent, you spoke of intimacy, now you saw Abram was Gods friend. Now you switch to different levels of intimacy. I don't get the inconsistency.

OK, sorry, and I give you this one.
It's my bad, I slipped, not only John 8:41 which I so much loved but also Deuteronomy 1:31 Deuteronomy 32:6 vindicates you

You try. It takes humility to say that.

MuttleyLaff:

Abraham and his forebears are Chaldeans (i.e. Gen 11:31, 15:6)

Abraham and his forebears could not be Chaldeans, just another example of bible compilers getting it wrong, the Babylonians were never known as Chaldeans until much later in the millennia.

MuttleyLaff

Tear down their altars, crush their sacred stones, burn their poles dedicated to the goddess Asherah,
cut down their idols, and wipe out the names of their gods from those places.
- Deuteronomy 12:3

When you build the altar for the LORD (i.e. Yahweh) your God,
never plant beside it any tree dedicated to the goddess Asherah.
- Deuteronomy 16:21

This mention and the one above it, seems to show that no pleasure was taken in understanding before posting a cynic and skeptic objective, showing off ill-informed opinions, full of holes and glaring errors

Again the word and/or name ''ilt'' in that text is not Yahweh, but is Ilatu, the goddess also known as Asherah
How could a goddess be the "son" of anyone?

The whole text of the isolated tablet fragment, in context is found online
(i.e. my son by the name of Yawu, O goddess `Elatu..." )
It shows ''bny'' mistranslated as ''the son of'' actually meaning ''my son''

The phonetic similarity between the name Yahweh and Yw, which occurs only in a single text (i.e. KTU 1.1 IV 14) ends right there
Yahweh is Yahweh and is not synonymous with Yw or Yawu
Yahweh is El, ''the self-existing all-powerful authority influence'' - God

Monotheism of the Bible cannot be understood as a feature original to Israel. Otherwise, why would Exodus 15:11 refer to other gods in praise of God or why the Commandments in Exodus 20:3?

It should be clear that YHWH was unknown to the patriarchs of the Hebrews. Rather, they worshipped the Canaanite god, El. We find that the multiplicity of deities sitting together in council is taken for granted in the Hebrew Bible. The name and titles of El abound in the older patriarchal narratives. YHWH it seems was incorporated into the older figure of El, YHWH and El were identified separately at an early stage in the Hebrew writings and ultimately YHWH became the supreme deity and El as a separate god disappeared.

The goddess Asherah that you have referred to is the chief goddess of the Canaanite pantheon and was consort of El. When YHWH became assimilated into El, Asherah became consort of YHWH, she was the earliest female deity worshiped by the Children of Israel till as recently as 3BCE, we know this from the Elephantine Papyri.

The worship of many gods by the Children of Israel was not a lapse from an earlier higher faith revealed at Sinai, that thought is biblical revisionism. Israel’s religious history is not a fight to restore an original monotheism. The prophets were in the minority and they arrived late on the scene.

In my view the original god of Israel was El. Jerusalem would have been a center of El worship, Melchizedek, king of Salem was Chief priest of El. The name of Israel is not a Yahwistic name with the divine element of YHWH, but an El name.

If YHWH had been the original god of Israel, then its name might have been Yisra-Yahweh, or more appropriately Yisra-Yah in accordance with other Hebrew proper names containing the divine name. Multiple biblical texts attest to YHWH and El as different gods recognized by early Israel. It is clear that the use of theophoric personal and place names before and up to the reign of King David show a preference for the god El

There were other gods too, for instance Saul and David gave their children names containing Baal (e.g Baalyada’, “Baal knows”), Baal also means “Lord” therefore it is more likely than not that in many instances in early Hebrew writing the appellation “Lord” in fact refers to Baal.

I do agree with you that the transliteration of the Ugarit clay tablet KTU1.1 IV 14 is problematic and I absolutely hold my hands up. But if you can hold the stones for a while longer, I am persuaded that “.yw” refers to YHWH and that YHWH was known to the Canaanites or the peoples of Ugarit, the comparisons are there to be made that “Yaw” or “Yawu” are but an earlier form of YHWH. I am persuaded because the older rendering of Deuteronomy 32:8-9 rather lets the cat out of the bag;

When the Most-High gave nations (their) inheritances,
at his dividing the human-race,
he stationed boundaries for peoples
by the number of the gods.
Indeed, the portion of YHWH became his people,
Yaakov [Jacob], the lot of his inheritance.

The above is the Septuagint and Qumranic (Dead sea scrolls) evidence. It narrates that out of all the gods of the Divine Council of Elyon, YHWH was given (possibly by drawing lots) the LOT of Jacob - or Israel. The other members of the Divine Council got their own nations to look after. For instance the people of Ammon got the deity Chemosh with whom YHWH was to battle and lose out to.

Clearly the Masoretics did not like the implications of the original verse and have changed it to its present nonsensical rendering. In fact in some some modern revisions of the Bible I have even seen the words "Heavenly Council" rendered as "Heavenly Counsel" thereby trying to obscure further the true nature of things. YHWH may be El now, my point is that it was not always so.

As always, I am open to persuasion but apart from your customary high horse I see nothing you have written that demonstrates that Monotheism is original to the Hebrews.

MuttleyLaff:
Oh yes you did

Oh no I didn't!!

Please do a quick google double check to find out what worshipper means,
after that, then go and properly read the Cyrus Cylinder, particularly lines 12, 14-17, 20, 23, 26, 34-35 and 44 to see how Cyrus reverenced & worshipped Marduk

Right, so Cyrus Cylinder says that Cyrus worshipped Marduk. Cyrus Cylinder was written by Marduk's priests. The text takes a form that is common when a new lineage in Babylon is established and divine validation is needed.

You just have to do a tangential here, isnt it?
OK, yes, I actually believe that Marduk exists
''So tan? Bo si ngbangban ko wa se ife inu e''

That your yoruba sef, you might as well have written it in Cyrillic letters.

So as you believe Marduk exists, I take it that you believe that Marduk actually came to talk to Cyrus rather than the whole thing being a fabrication of Marduk's priesthood. By the way, how many different Gods can speak to Cyrus and give him mandate? Which one is giving the real mandate?

Partly and also went by Cyrus' admission in the Cyrus Cylinder, where he said Marduk gave him the mandate etcetera
(i.e. Cyrus Cylinder lines 12, 14-17)

Yes he 'said' that Marduk gave him the Mandate in Cyrus Cylinder which must mean that the Bible is lying. After all the bible makes exactly the same claims for Yahweh and Cyrus and it also quotes Cyrus as saying as much.

:

2“Thus says Cyrus king of Persia: Yahweh, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth, and he has charged me to build him a house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.
Ezra Chapter 1.

Because there is no nation which so readily adopts foreign customs as the persians
But why ask me anyway?
Ask Cyrus, not me. I didnt pay homage to Marduk. He, Cyrus did

That is just true for all of humanity and just as true for Israelite/Hebrew/Jews as it is for Persians, if not more so, and with Judaism we have plenty and plenty of evidence. More than for Persia.

No, Yahweh is not the same as Marduk
but all that is Yahweh's is attributed to Marduk

I believe that the subject of much of this thread is contesting that and making the diametrical opposite claim. You guys haven't settled that yet before you go about stating claims.

Glad and pleased you realised that happening
He wrote in the Cyrus Cylinder that he got his mandate from Marduk, when the truth and actual fact is that it was given by YHWH
People often mix YHWH up with other gods (e.g. Marduk)

According to Ezra He claimed to have got his mandate from Yahweh. He made a proclamation about it. So which is it? Marduk or Yahweh. Personally I say neither. Cyrus was just a pragmatic man who let the Marduk priests make whatever claim they wanted to make about his relationship with their God. And likewise he let the Jews make similar claims in their texts. I'm sure if we found more texts from other nations that he set free we would find more of the same but in the version of each one's own religion.

Yet they worshipped many gods (e.g. the sun and moon, the earth, fire, water, and the winds

Worship of many Gods is a far cry from using images to worship God. Nice try though.

Cyrus himself said Marduk looked around and checked all the countries, seeking for the upright king of his choice.
Marduk then found and took under his hand Cyrus, king of the city of Anshan etcetera
Please dont spread your ignorance, you really need to read more on Cyrus

He also said that Yahweh charged him to build a house for him. And Yahweh gave him all the kingdoms. So was he lying. Which version do you want to believe? Or you don't want to recognise an astute politician when you see one?

So?
Nothing wrong in ''borrowing'' and/or ''importting''
The irony is that Magi must be privy to some sacred truth & knowledge for them to have journeyed and come to Bethlehem to worship God

Nothing wrong unless you claim that it is from a source other than where you are actually borrowing from. If you say the bible was written by God, then it is shocking that the creator of the whole universe should show such utter lack of creativity when it comes to writing his holy book and devising a religion.

err... Where does it say in history, the bible, or anywhere for that matter, that Magi (ie. the Priests of Ahura Mazda) went 'to Bethlehem to worship God'?

oh, and one last thing on the Cyrus Cylinder Brouhaha....

Though Marduk's priests, with a bias, quote Cyrus as acknowledging their Marduk...

And though Yahweh's priests and prophets, with their own bias, claim and quote Cyrus as acknowledging Yahweh...

Yet there are independent, non religious documents on Cyrus. For example Xenophon wrote a history of Cyrus' life and in his history Cyrus is surrounded by Magi who he consults.

Now at peep of day the first thing that Cyrus did was to call the magi and bid them select the gifts ordained for the gods in acknowledgment of such success;

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0204%3Abook%3D4%3Achapter%3D5%3Asection%3D14

So the only non religious person, a foreigner (greek) talks about Cyrus consulting Magi, while those that have a bias to push describe him as being a worshipper or at the very least an acknowledge-r of their respective Gods. Add to this the fact that Cyrus is Persian and the religion of the Persians is Avesta.

MuttleyLaff:
"Cyrus' admission is found in the ''The Cyrus Cylinder'', a cuneiform tablet now in the British Museum"
You're such as a drama queen, aren't you, now what in the above, that I typed had to do with brouhaha.

You've just learned the word and you itchingly couldn't wait to use it. Inappropriate usage wouldn't matter or mean anything to you

Hardly anything noisy, or loud, or over-exciting in that simple and plain remark, where "Cyrus Cylinder" was mentioned only one time or reference to it done only once

Cyrus Cylinder is not brouhaha and my one sentence comment about it was not brouhaha

and I am and will be waiting for you

Sarassin:


No sir, no conflation here, how can you state that Abraham's "EL" is different from Melchizedek's "EL"??, there was no such thing as "Abraham's EL". Abraham swore to the "Most High" that is "EL" of the Canaanite pantheon. The conflation is that of bible writers assigning the omnipotence of "EL" to the Hebrew deity YHWH. I would also point out that Baal was the vizer of EL, the first among his "Sons", the original "rider of the clouds" whose characteristics are later transposed into the Book of Daniel and appropriated into the New Testament of the person of Jesus of Nazareth, specifically, the Baal attributes of the cycles of life, death and rebirth.

What I don't understand is how a Biblian could claim that the El of Abraham is different from the El of Melchizedek when in the same bible we read this:

11 Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron?

“You are a priest forever,
after the order of Melchizedek.”

PastorAIO:


What I don't understand is how a Biblian could claim that the El of Abraham is different from the El of Melchizedek when in the same bible we read this:

Yeah, a real head-scratcher that one.