prinzfavian:

Bosom can also refer to the breast or chest part of the body...
What does it mean to be in someone's Bosom? A close look at the 23rd verse of the 13th chapter of the book of John will help us out.... We see there that one of Jesus' favourite disciple was said to be leaning on Jesus' Bosom... Which also means he was closest to him in the manner with which they were sitting...
Now if the account of luke 16:19-31 is to be taking literally, it would mean that those enjoying divine favour could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham; and that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering in hades... And all these will lead to contradictions in the Bible but it's an establish fact that the Bible doesn't contradict itself in fact it explains itself....
Take into consideration that the account is a story that has no historical backings... Hence, the principal subjects, such as "the rich man", "lazarus" and "abraham" must have represented some important details that Jesus was trying to pass across in a message to his listeners...
One reasonable question one should ask is, if lazarus went to Abraham's bosom, where was Abraham himself?
The end note is that, that account at luke 16:19-31 is a parable that has a special meaning and should not be taken literally.

Obviously Abraham's bossom is a physical location, whether you call it parable or not. Jesus is enough history, Abraham is someone we know and was regarded in that account in the light of our knowledge of him . One obvious truth in the account is that there is a clear distinction in location for the just and the unjust after death. Could that location of the just(Abraham's bossom) as seen in the passage be the said Paradise? Jesus told the thief on the cross TODAY you shall be with me in paradise

aigboeben:


Obviously Abraham's bossom is a physical location , whether you call it parable or not. Jesus is enough history, Abraham is someone we know and was regarded in that account in the light of our knowledge of him . One obvious truth in the account is that there is a clear distinction in location for the just and the unjust after death. Could that location of the just(Abraham's bossom) as seen in the passage be the said Paradise? Jesus told the thief on the cross TODAY you shall be with me in paradise

I was observing cos I didn't wanna digress from the main topic, which you and others are yet to answer. here you are again applying parabolic meaning to Abraham blossom yet u accuse someone. of saying its a parable.



If you want to take the story as it is, why give another meaning to Abraham bossom ?

What is your bosom ? Your chest or a location in space .

prove the bolded

aigboeben:

Obviously Abraham's bossom is a physical location, whether you call it parable or not. Jesus is enough history, Abraham is someone we know and was regarded in that account in the light of our knowledge of him . One obvious truth in the account is that there is a clear distinction in location for the just and the unjust after death. Could that location of the just(Abraham's bossom) as seen in the passage be the said Paradise?

Bossom is chest , making it an imaginary location WILL REQUIRE that Every other thing in the story a Representative of another. thus symbolic ... are u ready to face that penalty ?

Jesus told the thief on the cross TODAY you shall be with me in paradise

It is in your Bible that Paradise is in heaven, Now How could Jesus be in Paradise ( Heaven) the same day he died ? Did he ascend to heaven immediately he dies?

Peacefullove:


I was observing cos I didn't wanna digress from the main topic, which you and others are yet to answer. here you are again applying parabolic meaning to Abraham blossom yet u accuse someone. of saying its a parable.



If you want to take the story as it is, why give another meaning to Abraham bossom ?

What is your bosom ? Your chest or a location in space .

prove the bolded

First let us stay in love with an open heart to learn. The Bible says Lazarus was CARRIED into Abraham's bosom by the angels. CARRY speaks of transportation, and transportation leads to destination. If I have not answered your question I will do in due time

Peacefullove:



Bossom is chest , making it an imaginary location WILL REQUIRE that Every other thing in the story a Representative of another. thus symbolic ... are u ready to face that penalty ?




It is in your Bible that Paradise is in heaven, Now How could Jesus be in Paradise ( Heaven) the same day he died ? Did he ascend to heaven immediately he dies?

Where is Paradise sir? Please respond with scriptural proofs. According to the Bible how many heaven(s) are there?

aigboeben:

First let us stay in love with an open heart to learn. The Bible says Lazarus was CARRIED into Abraham's bosom by the angels. CARRY speaks of transportation, and transportation leads to destination. If I have not answered your question I will do in due time

A woman rest on Chinedu's Bossom ... doesn't mean the woman rest on an imaginary location in space .

the name " Chinedu " identifies its a persons chest. So also the name Abraham, Why ascribe another meaning to Bossom ?

The same way One of you ascribe death in flesh term to explain away what she doesn't understand

aigboeben:

I am enjoying this discuss, but I must be quick to say there is no scriptural proof that paradise is here on Earth, not even the Psalm 37vs11 you quoted( I stand to be corrected) . Where is the location of Abraham's bossom? Like you said the breath of God in Genesis 2vs7 stands for the spirit of man ,that gave man the capacity to relate with this earthly realm. If it is the spirit that made the clay a living being, doesn't the spirit stand more as the real 'force'? Is heaven a soulish realm or a spirit realm?

Heaven is a spirit realm.
Yes, the spirit is the real force.
There is no location for Abraham's bosom, cos it's not a literal place, the truth is Abraham wasn't the only faithful person of that era to have been special enough to have a literal place of his own where people that finds favour with God go to when they die..... We had likes of Abel, Enoch even Noah that existed long before him, so where would such ones have been since obviously Abraham's bosom wouldn't have been existing when they died?.... Brother, Abraham's bosom can also mean Abraham's side... So in a literal sense, lazarus was taken to Abraham's side ( i.e where Abraham was) [luke 16:23], just like the two sides of a team on a pitch, if the score is not even then, there is obviously a "winning side" and a "loosing side".... So everyone on the winning side will be said to be on the winning side and some for the loosing side.... Same way, Abraham's bosom or Abraham's side connotes where Abraham is... So the question is, where is Abraham now?
Where do you think he is now?

aigboeben:

Where is Paradise sir? Please respond with scriptural proofs. According to the Bible how many heaven(s) are there?

Revelation 2 vs 7 mentions Paradise as being in heaven .

So are you. now telling me Jesus was telling the thief they will both be in heaven immediately they died ?

aigboeben:

Obviously Abraham's bossom is a physical location, whether you call it parable or not. Jesus is enough history, Abraham is someone we know and was regarded in that account in the light of our knowledge of him . One obvious truth in the account is that there is a clear distinction in location for the just and the unjust after death. Could that location of the just(Abraham's bossom) as seen in the passage be the said Paradise? Jesus told the thief on the cross TODAY you shall be with me in paradise

Yes, there is a clear distinction as per the eternal location of the righteous and unrighteous... The paradise Jesus promised to the thief on when dying is an earthly one, which is yet to come or not existing NOW.... And that's where the likes of Abraham himself and many more faithfuls of old and those of our time will be.
Abraham's bosom isn't a physical location...

prinzfavian:

Yes, there is a clear distinction as per the eternal location of the righteous and unrighteous... The paradise Jesus promised to the thief on when dying is an earthly one, which is yet to come or not existing NOW.... And that's where the likes of Abraham himself and many more faithfuls of old and those of our time will be.
Abraham's bosom isn't a physical location...

But Jesus said TODAY? Beloved, we can't change that. Don't you think Abraham's bosom is a figurative expression of Abraham's location after his death (same place the righteous will be)?
Can you correlate your claim of the body being part of the soul and the statement of Jesus in Matthew 10vs28 in which he placed a demarcation between the soul and the body? I think Hebrews 4vs12 separates the three entities

Peacefullove:


Revelation 2 vs 7 mentions Paradise as being in heaven .

So are you. now telling me Jesus was telling the thief they will both be in heaven immediately they died ?

You didn't answer my questions completely, please do

aigboeben:

But Jesus said TODAY? Beloved, we can't change that. Don't you think Abraham's bosom is a figurative expression of Abraham's location after his death (same place the righteous will be)?
Can you correlate your claim of the body being part of the soul and the statement of Jesus in Matthew 10vs28 in which he placed a demarcation between the soul and the body? I think Hebrews 4vs12 separates the three entities

Boss, Many translations presents Jesus statement at luke 23:43 in different way, The punctuation shown in the rendering of these words @ luke 23:43 must, of course, depend on the translator’s understanding of the sense of Jesus’ words, since no punctuation was used in the original Greek text. Punctuation in the modern style did not become common until about the ninth century C.E. Whereas many translations place a comma before the word “today” and thereby give the impression that the evildoer entered Paradise that same day, there is nothing in the rest of the Scriptures to support this. Jesus himself was dead and in the tomb until the third day and was then resurrected as “the firstfruits” of the resurrection. (Ac 10:40; 1Co 15:20; Col 1:18) He ascended to heaven 40 days later.—Joh 20:17; Ac 1:1-3, 9.
There fore, The evidence is, therefore, that Jesus’ use of the word “today” was not to give the time of the evildoer’s being in Paradise but, rather, to call attention to the time in which the promise was being made and during which the evildoer had shown a measure of faith in Jesus. It was a day when Jesus had been rejected and condemned by the highest-ranking religious leaders of his own people and was thereafter sentenced to die by Roman authority. He had become an object of scorn and ridicule. So the wrongdoer alongside him had shown a notable quality and commendable heart attitude in not going along with the crowd but, rather, speaking out in Jesus’ behalf and expressing belief in his coming Kingship. Recognizing that the emphasis is correctly placed on the time of the promise’s being made rather than on The evidence is, therefore, that Jesus’ use of the word “today” was not to give the time of the evildoer’s being in Paradise but, rather, to call attention to the time in which the promise was being made and during which the evildoer had shown a measure of faith in Jesus. It was a day when Jesus had been rejected and condemned by the highest-ranking religious leaders of his own people and was thereafter sentenced to die by Roman authority. He had become an object of scorn and ridicule. So the wrongdoer alongside him had shown a notable quality and commendable heart attitude in not going along with the crowd but, rather, speaking out in Jesus’ behalf and expressing belief in his coming Kingship. Recognizing that the emphasis is correctly placed on the time of the promise’s being made rather than on the time of its fulfillment. As to the identification of the Paradise of which Jesus spoke, it is clearly not synonymous with the heavenly Kingdom of Christ. Earlier that day entry into that heavenly Kingdom had been held out as a prospect for Jesus’ faithful disciples but on the basis of their having ‘stuck with him in his trials,’ something the evildoer had never done, his dying alongside Jesus being purely for his own criminal acts. (Lu 22:28-30; 23:40, 41) The evildoer obviously had not been “born again,” of water and spirit, which Jesus showed was a prerequisite to entry into the Kingdom of the heavens. (Joh 3:3-6) Nor was the evildoer one of the ‘conquerors’ that the glorified Christ Jesus stated would be with him on his heavenly throne and that have a share in “the first resurrection.”—Re 3:11, 12, 21; 12:10, 11; 14:1-4; 20:4-6.
Sorry for the long epistle.

prinzfavian:


Boss, Many translations presents Jesus statement at luke 23:43 in different way, The punctuation shown in the rendering of these words @ luke 23:43 must, of course, depend on the translator’s understanding of the sense of Jesus’ words, since no punctuation was used in the original Greek text. Punctuation in the modern style did not become common until about the ninth century C.E. Whereas many translations place a comma before the word “today” and thereby give the impression that the evildoer entered Paradise that same day, there is nothing in the rest of the Scriptures to support this. Jesus himself was dead and in the tomb until the third day and was then resurrected as “the firstfruits” of the resurrection. (Ac 10:40; 1Co 15:20; Col 1:18) He ascended to heaven 40 days later.—Joh 20:17; Ac 1:1-3, 9.
There fore, The evidence is, therefore, that Jesus’ use of the word “today” was not to give the time of the evildoer’s being in Paradise but, rather, to call attention to the time in which the promise was being made and during which the evildoer had shown a measure of faith in Jesus. It was a day when Jesus had been rejected and condemned by the highest-ranking religious leaders of his own people and was thereafter sentenced to die by Roman authority. He had become an object of scorn and ridicule. So the wrongdoer alongside him had shown a notable quality and commendable heart attitude in not going along with the crowd but, rather, speaking out in Jesus’ behalf and expressing belief in his coming Kingship. Recognizing that the emphasis is correctly placed on the time of the promise’s being made rather than on The evidence is, therefore, that Jesus’ use of the word “today” was not to give the time of the evildoer’s being in Paradise but, rather, to call attention to the time in which the promise was being made and during which the evildoer had shown a measure of faith in Jesus. It was a day when Jesus had been rejected and condemned by the highest-ranking religious leaders of his own people and was thereafter sentenced to die by Roman authority. He had become an object of scorn and ridicule. So the wrongdoer alongside him had shown a notable quality and commendable heart attitude in not going along with the crowd but, rather, speaking out in Jesus’ behalf and expressing belief in his coming Kingship. Recognizing that the emphasis is correctly placed on the time of the promise’s being made rather than on the time of its fulfillment. As to the identification of the Paradise of which Jesus spoke, it is clearly not synonymous with the heavenly Kingdom of Christ. Earlier that day entry into that heavenly Kingdom had been held out as a prospect for Jesus’ faithful disciples but on the basis of their having ‘stuck with him in his trials,’ something the evildoer had never done, his dying alongside Jesus being purely for his own criminal acts. (Lu 22:28-30; 23:40, 41) The evildoer obviously had not been “born again,” of water and spirit, which Jesus showed was a prerequisite to entry into the Kingdom of the heavens. (Joh 3:3-6) Nor was the evildoer one of the ‘conquerors’ that the glorified Christ Jesus stated would be with him on his heavenly throne and that have a share in “the first resurrection.”—Re 3:11, 12, 21; 12:10, 11; 14:1-4; 20:4-6.
Sorry for the long epistle.

About the long epistle, ko si wahala! Was Jesus active in the 3 days he was dead( beyond the earthly realm)? Dear you didn't respond to my other questions on Matthew 10vs28 and Hebrews 4vs 12

aigboeben:

You didn't answer my questions completely, please do

I did.

Revelation 2 vs 7 presents paradise as being in heaven where God resides . " Paradise of God "

So tell me if Jesus went to heaven the same day he died or not ?

aigboeben:

But Jesus said TODAY? Beloved, we can't change that. Don't you think Abraham's bosom is a figurative expression of Abraham's location after his death (same place the righteous will be)?

So the entire story was FIGURATIVE ( not actually real ) ? Lolzzzzz

Can you correlate your claim of the body being part of the soul and the statement of Jesus in Matthew 10vs28 in which he placed a demarcation between the soul and the body? I think Hebrews 4vs12 separates the three entities

Mr, Soul means life nah . isn't it ?

Body and soul in hell, Matthew 10:28, So the human body also go to hell ? I wonder why pastors preach soul alone, when Yeshua said soul and body . ( I have a thread on that, will mention you )


Too many holes in the cloth of so called Jesus followers

its very easy for the average Christian to say , You are a spirit/Soul just LIVING in a body .

Unknown to. them, this will instantly render their core faith baseless, since it would mean Jesus is actually a spirit/Soul that CANNOT DIE for anyone . what dies is just the house he is living, body NOT him .

still on the topic

aigboeben:

But Jesus said TODAY? Beloved, we can't change that. Don't you think Abraham's bosom is a figurative expression of Abraham's location after his death (same place the righteous will be)?
Can you correlate your claim of the body being part of the soul and the statement of Jesus in Matthew 10vs28 in which he placed a demarcation between the soul and the body? I think Hebrews 4vs12 separates the three entities

Now regarding the issue of the Bible chapters and verses you cited....
First, Matthew 10:28: as I said earlier, The soul according to the scriptures basically means:
1. People
2. Animal and
3. The life that an animal or that a person has...
Now looking closely at that Bible book of Matthew 10:28, the 3rd definition of the soul fits in perfectly....
That passage reads:"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell".... Now if as I claim, that the soul is the person himself and not something intangible that is inside of a person, then how is it possible to kill the body and not kill the soul since the soul is the person humself..... Jesus here was talking about resurrection, that his followers should not be afraid of those that would kill them (just as they would later go on to kill him too) just because they are Christ follower because if any of them should loose their life because of him they will preserve it till a later time when they will get it back again (resurrection) - luke 17:33....
He goes on and says... But fear him that can destroy both the body and soul in hell..... Meaning, we should not be afraid of men but God who is the source of life, and can choose to either resurrect us or not when we die...

Hebrews 4:12.... ".... Piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joint and marrow...." To understand the sense in which soul and spirit is used in the context, we need to read it carefully....
This verse is emphasising the powerfulness of the word of God, so powerful and effective that it can bring about the most impossible kind of change in ones life, it can touch the deepest part of your heart and help you make some difficult changes in your life even such as difficult as the dividing of soul and spirit, and joints from marrow...
It doesn't mean the soul and spirit is being inhabited in the body...

Peacefullove:


So the entire story was FIGURATIVE ( not actually real ) ? Lolzzzzz



Mr, Soul means life nah . isn't it ?

Body and soul in hell, Matthew 10:28, So the human body also go to hell ? I wonder why pastors preach soul alone, when Yeshua said soul and body . ( I have a thread on that, will mention you )


Too many holes in the cloth of so called Jesus followers

Be smart! I didn't say the whole story is figurative! Stop telling lies. I seem to enjoy my conversations with prinzfavian and removetheturban more than you. At least they 'pretend' to be objective and don't misquote me. I am proud to be a Jesus follower, of course he is the way. Who are you following? The ancestors from your village?

prinzfavian:


Now regarding the issue of the Bible chapters and verses you cited....
First, Matthew 10:28: as I said earlier, The soul according to the scriptures basically means:
1. People
2. Animal and
3. The life that an animal or that a person has...
Now looking closely at that Bible book of Matthew 10:28, the 3rd definition of the soul fits in perfectly....
That passage reads:"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell".... Now if as I claim, that the soul is the person himself and not something intangible that is inside of a person, then how is it possible to kill the body and not kill the soul since the soul is the person humself..... Jesus here was talking about resurrection, that his followers should not be afraid of those that would kill them (just as they would later go on to kill him too) just because they are Christ follower because if any of them should loose their life because of him they will preserve it till a later time when they will get it back again (resurrection) - luke 17:33....
He goes on and says... But fear him that can destroy both the body and soul in hell..... Meaning, we should not be afraid of men but God who is the source of life, and can choose to either resurrect us or not when we die...

Hebrews 4:12.... ".... Piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joint and marrow...." To understand the sense in which soul and spirit is used in the context, we need to read it carefully....
This verse is emphasising the powerfulness of the word of God, so powerful and effective that it can bring about the most impossible kind of change in ones life, it can touch the deepest part of your heart and help you make some difficult changes in your life even such as difficult as the dividing of soul and spirit, and joints from marrow...
It doesn't mean the soul and spirit is being inhabited in the body...

Was Jesus active in the 3days he was dead? Why do you all skip this question?

aigboeben:

About the long epistle, ko si wahala! Was Jesus active in the 3 days he was dead( beyond the earthly realm)? Dear you didn't respond to my other questions on Matthew 10vs28 and Hebrews 4vs 12

Lol, Thanks... I've responded, sorry it came in a bit late...
Jesus wasn't alive,he was dead,no part of him was somewhere else...Unconscious of nothing at all.... (matthew 12:40, eccl 9:5)

Peacefullove:


So the entire story was FIGURATIVE ( not actually real ) ? Lolzzzzz



Mr, Soul means life nah . isn't it ?

Body and soul in hell, Matthew 10:28, So the human body also go to hell ? I wonder why pastors preach soul alone, when Yeshua said soul and body . ( I have a thread on that, will mention you )


Too many holes in the cloth of so called Jesus followers

Destroying body and soul in hell is a proof that both are distinct part of Man. Shekinah!

aigboeben:

Be smart! I didn't say the whole story is figurative! Stop telling lies.

I cannot laugh abeg, Very funny guy .
Okay, Some part are figurative ... while other part are Not figurative ? in the same story o

Relax Sir .

I seem to enjoy my conversations with prinzfavian and removetheturban more than you. At least they 'pretend' to be objective and don't misquote me. I am proud to be a Jesus follower, of course he is the way. Who are you following? The ancestors from your village?

Am sure the Matthew 10 vs 28 question I popped up got on your nerves . don't worry, I will invite you to the thread .


anyway , The question here are still valid

aigboeben:

Was Jesus active in the 3days he was dead? Why do you all skip this question?

I already did... He wasn't.... No one can be active while dead...
That would have been hypocrisy.

prinzfavian:

Lol, Thanks... I've responded, sorry it came in a bit late...
Jesus wasn't alive,he was dead,no part of him was somewhere else...Unconscious of nothing at all.... (matthew 12:40, eccl 9:5)

Busted! 1 Peter 3vs18-20 says otherwise.

aigboeben:

Destroying body and soul in hell is a proof that both are distinct part of Man. Shekinah!

Do Body go to hell?

Didn't we agree soul means life earlier on ?

aigboeben:
Busted! 1 Peter 3vs18-20 says otherwise.

He gave you a verse .
you counter with another verse .
Bible contradict Bible ?

Peacefullove:




I cannot laugh abeg, Very funny guy .
Okay, Some part are figurative ... while other part are Not figurative ? in the same story o

Relax Sir .



Am sure the Matthew 10 vs 28 question I popped up got on your nerves . don't worry, I will invite you to the thread .


anyway , The question here are still valid

Religious bias has killed your sense of objectivity. I only took a cue from your brother's notion about some things being figurative. Is it right to visit a native doctor?

aigboeben:

Religious bias has killed your sense of objectivity. I only took a cue from your brother's notion about some things being figurative. Is it right to visit a native doctor?

this is why I said Relax .

I only asked a question: So the entire story was figurative ?

to which you replied : I didn't say the whole story was figurative .

okay, then I ask : Okay, some part are figurative .. while other parts are not figurative ?

Lobatan, just questions ... but you took it as a statement .

Relax Bro .

aigboeben:

Busted! 1 Peter 3vs18-20 says otherwise.

Busted! How? Well I like your sense of humour... Okay to the Bible portion you cited.... 1 Peter 3 vs 18-20...
I don't see anything in that verse that contradicts what I have been saying... Jesus was dead all through the three days... Verses 18...help us see that he was made alive in spirit, Boss this was after the third day and not during the three days of his death as you think...(1cor 15:45)....also read 1 cor 15:20...
So the preaching recorded in verses 19 and 20 of 1 Peter was carried out by Jesus as a spirit after he had been resurrected... Not during his three days in the middle of the earth (Matthew 12:40)...he was sleeping during those periods, just as his friend lazarus whom he himself resurrected did when he was dead for four days... (John 11:11-13)
Thank you Boss.

Peacefullove:
Still on the topic ... checking whether the core doctrine of Christianity is true or not .

The christian main doctrine of a soul that outlives the body is false at best and has no place in the scripture.
Someone already gave you a logical answer. At creation, man became a living soul, so when he dies, he becomes a dead soul. There is nothing like soul/spirit floating around after death

You cannot be dead and alive at the same time .

either dead or alive .

Some are just dribbling .

prinzfavian:

Busted! How? Well I like your sense of humour... Okay to the Bible portion you cited.... 1 Peter 3 vs 18-20...
I don't see anything in that verse that contradicts what I have been saying... Jesus was dead all through the three days... Verses 18...help us see that he was made alive in spirit, Boss this was after the third day and not during the three days of his death as you think...(1cor 15:45)....also read 1 cor 15:20...
So the preaching recorded in verses 19 and 20 of 1 Peter was carried out by Jesus as a spirit after he had been resurrected... Not during his three days in the middle of the earth (Matthew 12:40)...he was sleeping during those periods, just as his friend lazarus whom he himself resurrected did when he was dead for four days... (John 11:11-13)
Thank you Boss.

Was it after he resurrected he preached to the dead according to 1 Peter 4vs6

aigboeben:

Was it after he resurrected he preached to the dead according to 1 Peter 4vs6

Lol... Boss...
That verse wasn't even talking about Jesus, but the Christians from the days of the apostles down to our day... The dead there are the spiritually unconscious ones, not literally dead people... And whereas, it was imprisoned spirits Jesus preached too, disobedient ones of old not to the dead... Eph 2:1 puts more light on 1pet 4:6

Thanks Boss.