TY David, so you can now tell who has recioeved the Grace of Jesus Christ and who has not. Doh, Well done!

By their fruits . . . .

JosBoy4Lif:

Based on my knowledge it is not that God hated Esau, and the descendents Edomites. He chose Jacob (Israel) to lead his people. "The chosen people" . These two clans though brothers at the beginning became bitter enemies. But that is besides the point. Jacob was bad and there was nothing in him that God could see and like, but he still chose Jacob becaus he wanted to show his unlimited mercy that he has for people. Esau would also sell his birthright for some pottage.

You have just shown your knowledge to be faulty: Please read and learn:

Romans 9: 10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

The bible is not based on "your knowledge"!

You have no shame that i should tell you about certain scriptures, having Faith and Believing should not be test.
Jesus Christ lives in me by the way I treat others. I do not judge others for it is written in the Bible that God judges the "quick and the dead", not man.

. . . And all these arguments still lead us back to the very much avoided thread:

What Then Happens To The Unbeliever?

Isnt that what I said  
If you wanted me to bring passages I would have. I merely explained why God chose him.
So what I have said is faulty ok lemme also bring the passages:

"JACOB HAVE I LOVED BUT ESAU HAVE I HATED"
Romans 9:13
And you should know that God did not love the sins of Jacob, and Hate Esau with all malice


Romans 9:8-13
Tells us that God chose whom he wanted, and this was predisposed

@ Jos,
it wearies me to attempt a debate with those who run away with very little information before they start making unfounded claims.

Here was your question that led to this:
Quote from: JosBoy4Lif on Today at 08:41:01 PM

So to you Christianity is the only right religion and God has chosen Me and David and all the other Christians. And in his infinate power has left behind more than 2/3's of the rest of the world. Why hasn't he shown them the grace, for it exists only in Chrstianity right?

My answer:
You dear sir, need to do a comprehensive study of your scriptures before you start asking questions. I will ask you a simple question, why did God choose Jacob and reject Esau even though both had not even been born?

I brought up the example of Esau and Jacob to stimulate a thought process here and not merely to engender endless strife as you have chosen. If we think it is wrong and unfair for God to "leave behind 2/3's of the rest of the world" and show grace to only a few then would it be right for us to accuse God of favoritism in the case of Esau and Jacob? Why would God "hate" Esau even when he had not been born?
Why would he love a lying and cheating Jacob when he had not even been born?

JosBoy4Lif:

You have no shame that i should tell you about certain scriptures, having Faith and Believing should not be test.
Jesus Christ lives in me by the way I treat others. I do not judge others for it is written in the Bible that God judges the "quick and the dead", not man.

The first part of your response makes absolutely no sense. Maybe it will to you as you re-read it. For the second part, is the evidence of being in Christ merely "how you treat others?" What of the rich man in the bible who had "kept all the commandments from his youth?"
What of Nicodemus the "nice" pharisee? Why did Jesus still have to preach salvation to him?

If God judges the "quick and the dead" but not man then what does that passage really mean to you? Who are the "quick and the dead"?

goodguy:

. . . And all these arguments still lead us back to the very much avoided thread:

What Then Happens To The Unbeliever?

The bible gives us perfect answers to your question. Please read it for more info.

And what happens to our forefathers who had no idea of the Grace? Give me a break my friend, Heaven is not just for Christians alone. It is for those who have a faith.
Many of our people knew of God, before the Arabs and the Europeans came with Christianity and Islam?

JosBoy4Lif:

And what happens to our forefathers who had no idea of the Grace? Give me a break my friend, Heaven is not just for Christians alone. It is for those who have a faith.
Many of our people knew of God, before the Arabs and the Europeans came with Christianity and Islam?

I would be the wrongest person to put that question across to. It would be better if you asked God Himself how that conundrum will be solved.

Here is the real question: what happens to those who have heard about the salvation of the cross and turn their backs on it simply because theyy have "a faith"?
What kind of faith? Just about anything that is remotely connected to the paranormal?

JosBoy4Lif:

And what happens to our forefathers who had no idea of the Grace? Give me a break my friend, [b]Heaven is not just for Christians alone. It is for those who have a faith.[/b]Many of our people knew of God, before the Arabs and the Europeans came with Christianity and Islam?

Perhaps you are refering to your own version of "heaven" here. No problem, gather the wheat and the tares into your own barn.

davidylan:

The bible gives us perfect answers to your question. Please read it for more info.

Yes.  But there are still questions left unaswered.  Who really is an unbeliever?

1.  One who does not believe in God?

2.  One who does not believe in Trinity?

3.  One who never got convinced about the Gospel?

4.  One who never even heard about the Gospel, but just knows there's one Jesus served by the Christians?  A typical example will be someone who was born and bred in Saudi, and died a Conc. Muslim in Saudi.  Even though he believed in God, is he still an unbeliever for not acknowledging Christ as the Saviour?

These are questions that bother the mind, and the Bible does not state explicitly the category of people that will make heaven or hell.  Even some Christians don't believe a good God is capable of creating a place like Hell for His creations.

So, let's discuss all these on the thread.

goodguy:

Yes.  But there are still questions left unaswered.  Who really is an unbeliever?

1.  One who does not believe in God?

2.  One who does not believe in Trinity?

3.  One who never got convinced about the Gospel?

4.  One who never even heard about the Gospel, but just knows there's one Jesus served by the Christians?  A typical example will be someone who was born and bred in Saudi, and died a Conc. Muslim in Saudi.  Even though he believed in God, is he still an unbeliever for not acknowledging Christ as the Saviour?

These are questions that bother the mind, and the Bible does not state explicitly the category of people that will make heaven or hell.  Even some Christians don't believe a good God is capable of creating a place like Hell for His creations.
So, let's discuss all these on the thread.

It is false to state with authority that the bible is not explicit in stating those who will make heaven or hell.
As i said earlier, the answers to your "questions" are answered explicitly in myriads of verses in the bible, all you need do is take the time to read it rather than arguing pointlessly on the forum.

Here are a few examples:

John 3: 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
- Your question will be valid if you claim ignorance of the only begotten Son of God.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned
- Those who are damned is explicitly stated here! Unless you can convince me that even muslims and buddhists undergo water baptism too!

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
- I wonder if this is not explicit enough!

1 John 5:
1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

If after all these, the difference is still not explicit enough then we might have course to question your supposed faith!

You should have posted your rejoinder on the other thread.  All the Bible verses you quoted still brings us back to the ultimate question - Who is an unbeliever?

However, let me just quickly correct something here:

davidylan:

all you need do is take the time to read it rather than arguing pointlessly on the forum.

You may think you made perfect sense to yourself here, but I tell you, you did not!  No matter how the amount of truths in your words, a little aggression on your part totally disuades the person you're admonishing.  Now, you really do expect me to "reason" with you after telling me I'm arguing pointlessly?

Read what this 18 year old says about people like you: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-17939.0.html#msg494667 -- the first line of the 4th paragraph is where you and your likes should pay close attention to, and have a change of attitude in that aspect.

By the way, I already replied you here: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-37590.0.html#msg879510

Shalom.

goodguy:

You should have posted your rejoinder on the other thread. All the Bible verses you quoted still brings us back to the ultimate question - Who is an unbeliever?

No they dont! they perfectly answer the "questions" but you either are blind to them or prefer not to see them because you really think you are a christian.

goodguy:

However, let me just quickly correct something here:

You may think you made perfect sense to yourself here, but I tell you, you did not! No matter how the amount of truths in your words, a little aggression on your part totally disuades the person you're admonishing. Now, you really do expect me to "reason" with you after telling me I'm arguing pointlessly?

Dear sir, what you are indignant about is not any assumptions of aggression (which are basically your own assumptions and of no concern to me) but the fact that you really have no pedestal on which to stand with your "questions". Sorry if you have not taken your time to study your bible. It is my place to keep pointing out scriptures to counter your many false claims.

goodguy:


Read what this 18 year old says about people like you: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-17939.0.html#msg494667 -- the first line of the 4th paragraph is where you and your likes should pay close attention to, and have a change of attitude in that aspect.

By the way, I already replied you here: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-37590.0.html#msg879510

Shalom.

Shalom to you too. I have no problems with my "attitude" as you put it. Maybe you shld consider removing the log in your eyes before querrying the mote in mine. The problem is that of ego, no one wants to be proved wrong. As soon as your baseless accusations and claims are debunked you run under the cover of "aggression". Keep running.

Okay David, let's just round this off. But before that, let me breifly bring to your notice some things you missed.

davidylan:

Dear sir, what you are indignant about is not any assumptions of aggression (which are basically your own assumptions and of no concern to me) but the fact that you really have no pedestal on which to stand with your "questions".

Seems like you know me more than I do, myself. Of course, these are as well your assumptions, and are of little concern to me. But honestly, I appreciate the fact that you attempted to answer my queries. My reply to you on the other thread alone proves that, because I did not point out what I felt was "aggressive" there, unlike how I did here. I was going to end my post there in just that first paragraph, but I felt the need to let you know how I felt about that particular line.

davidylan:

I have no problems with my "attitude" as you put it.

You think so?

davidylan:

The problem is that of ego, no one wants to be proved wrong. As soon as your baseless accusations and claims are debunked you run under the cover of "aggression". Keep running.

Now, here's where you actually miss the point. I was not making any accusations/claims. I was simply asking questions that were meant to incite an interesting discussion on another thread. But as we would have it, you said I was arguing pointlessly. Please, be slow to attack goodguy.

Your arguements is part of the sorting out process i earlier mentioned. Its also part of the larger story about the burden of the traveller. We as muslims believes we are travellers on a journey from this world to the next. In the process we encounters all sort of Challenges and predicaments as we are experiencing here. The only snag here is that mr david seem to know everything or hold the final answer.

David you dont bulldoze christianity and some shallow knowledge of the doctrines on people. i d rather listen to folks like baby, shahan and good duy than going round the cycle with you. Cant we for once accept the fact that we just dont know everything?

belloti:

Your arguements is part of the sorting out process i earlier mentioned. Its also part of the larger story about the burden of the traveller. We as muslims believes ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,. Cant we for once accept the fact that we just don't know everything?

@bro Belloti,
What you are seeing in the exchange between Davidylan et goodguy is not just "sorting out process", that will be simplistic. It is part of a process of seeking wisdom of/from God that is actively encouraged at the 'individual' level in Christianity. It is about intellectual, scripture backed exchanges that aim to increase the participants in knowing more of the mind and thought of God in every situation-that is part of having a "relationship" with God.
By your 'sorting out' opinion, you think christians are in disagreement, Yes and No. The point is there are different levels of understanding, and that will always be obvious in discussions but Christianity was sorted out long time ago.
You see it as "sorting out" simply because such "critical appraisal" or "disagreement to agree" is not encouraged in Islam. Independent thinking is a discouraged concept in Islam; because such will reveal the weak foundation of the so-called Islamic faith.
There is nothing to sort out again in the "principles, teachings and doctrines of faith in Jesus Christ"; but individually, people differ and christians are encouraged to grow in their understanding of living in Christ. If you attempt to grow in your understanding of Islam, Muhammed and his teachings, apart from what the Oustass teach, you will see the light.
Sallam a leiukum!

Batu, why are you so bitter about the "sorting out" issue in christianity? The truth doesnt need panel beating but i dont want to argueing with you on that. But next time be calm and analyze issues properly, even at your age i dont think its a tall order.

belloti:

The truth doesnt need panel beating but i don't want to argueing with you on that. But next time be calm and analyze issues properly, even at your age i don't think its a tall order.

@Belloti,
I remember telling you sometime ago that you try to hide your ignorance behind a condescending attitude. There you go again. So how do you know my age? by telepathy? You sound a little bit more intelligent than most other muslims who argue on this forum (e.g blabs 787 and co), and this is why I read your posts. But either I have overestimated your intelligence or that you are probably smart but not applying it well.
My explanation is not about bitterness, it is just to point out the folly of your understanding of the "truth" about christian discussions, but obviously you are very resistant to wisdom. Keep it up! Ignorance is an islamic virtue of which you are very rich. Sallam.