toneyb:

Do you have anything to say beside this nonsense drivels of yours? Has any one forced you to believe in Allah? Why don't you just move with your superoir arguments and leave the Moslems alone?

Is something biting you?

Certainly if you feel the concept of God is incoherent . . . you wouldnt be here night and day beating yourself up about it right?

viaro:

That's okay with me. You knew you were not interested in philosophy (which was specifically what I asked for), and you are the same fellow to have posted a vid trying to gull the public with 'dualism in philosophy'? I wonder why you atheists are very scared of this thing called 'philosophy', though. Bro, if you were not comfy with what I specifically asked for, why try to cheat with that vid? I'd say next time that you carefully check and weigh your atheistic assertions before trying to blow smoke in our eyes about "conclusive evidence" about realities.

Sorry bro, I apologize, I should have posted a caveat and caution before I posted the vid, Some salient points were raised in the vids, that i thought explained what you asked me. I wasn't trying to cheat per-say.  

In due course.

OK. I will be waiting to see them.

While I appreciated your elborations, it was narrow - that was my point, unless you're saying that your own limited elaborations should be taken as the totality of all that can be known about mind and consciousness. Remember: if it was a simply case of chatting about these things, we would long have been done - but when you make very broad assertions about "conclusive evidence", someone would just have to call you up on that!

OK I understand.

I'm not here to force you into philosophical discussions - but next time to be so quick to post a vid about dualist philosophy as your answer for 'conclusive evidence' when you're not quite prepared to stand up for anything philosophical. Atheists who make very careless assertions about realities with such finality in their tone should be smarted up for what they brazenly claim

I shouldn't have posted the video since it goes into the philosophical line before going into the line i wanted it to go. It was silly of me to expect you not to look at it from that perspective.

No. I was not talking about abstract qualities of human experiences, for the soul if not an experience. Our feelings, thoughts, decisions, etc. are not 'part of' a living being, in so far that they are experience. However, I said simply that the soul is a part of a living being because it does not occur as a sponteneous experience of the brain such as feelings, thoughts, decisions, etc.

Please vairo, can you show me that the soul is a part of a living being? Where does the soul reside in living beings? Do animals have souls?

Please let us see the reviews asserting such, thanks.

Vairo are you saying things that I did not say again? . Please re-read my previous post again.

toneyb:

No, its your assumptions that are false. I was a theist and when I was provided with evidence to show that my beleifs were false. I accepted. Provide empirical evidence to show that there is a god that exists on its own independent of human culture, stories, societal acceptance and influence as mazaje loves putting it and I will believe and accept.

Were the things you were shown 'empirical evidence' for the non-existence of God and the supernatural? Of course, your personal beliefs were subjective and could anyday be proven false; such would not therefore mean that that is conclusive evidence for the non-existence of God and the supernatural. I'm sorry to note that I cannot take your anecdotal claim as meaningful here, because there are many atheists who have become theistic believers independent of the atheistic cultures that were part of their experiences, did you ever think about that? Such things had nothing to do with whatever any society accepted or not, and your preference to not believe is just that: your choice - and it has nothing to do with 'empiricism'.

So what if there are atheist that believe in spirits? Does that make their beliefs true? There are people that belief in alien abduction all over the place. People believe in Scientology, Hinduism, Islam, flat earth. Does that make their beliefs true?

I asked you to answer me a simple question - was that hard?  
I wasn't asking you to split hairs over Hindus, Muslims, Scientologists, or flat earthers - my focus was specifically atheists who believe in spirits! Things that have to do with alien abduction have nothing to do with anyone's worldview in so far as alien abduction is not a belief system! You atheists make me laugh when you throw tantrums in the way you appeal to fallacies in your arguments.

Your evidence that God exists on His own is what?

Creation and Cosmology. Choose your poison and let's discuss philosophically., if you may.

Actually I am not interested in philosophical rigmarole.

That's okay - atheists are never able to handle philosophy anyways.

davidylan:

Is something biting you?  

Certainly if you feel the concept of God is incoherent . . . you wouldnt be here night and day beating yourself up about it right?

I guess its you that something is biting. You believe that allah is nothing but a stone god that is nothing but a fruad i bet you wont be here night and day beating yourself about it right?

toneyb:

Sorry bro, I apologize, I should have posted a caveat and caution before I posted the vid, Some salient points were raised in the vids, that thought explained what you asked me. I wasn't trying to cheat per-say.

Please accept my unreserved apology - I should not have been careless the way I addressed you with the 'cheat' there - I actually meant the guy in the vid was trying to gull his audience by violating the very first principle of the Philosophy of Mind. Not that it has absolutely nothing worthy to appreciate - it does; but it yet does not stand as conclusive evidence for reality, which was my point. I apologise again and withdraw my unfair accusation.

I shouldn't have posted the video since it goes into the philosophical line before going into the line i wanted it to go. It was silly of me to expect you not to look at it from that perspective.

No, it was not silly of you. We make mistakes, and I would have made the same mistake if it was the other way round and I missed noting that you had asked specifically about "philosophical underpinnings". I saw that vid (and several others by the same QualiaSoup that are good) - and I thought you might reach for that, which was why I anticipated you in carefully asking for anything with "philosophical underpinnings". Sorry about that.

Please vairo, can you show me that the soul is a part of a living being? Where does the soul reside in living beings? Do animals have souls?

Yes, animals do have souls, I believe; but it is not a physicalist fundamental principle. I think I made that point clear several times.

Vairo are you saying things that I did not say again? . Please re-read my previous post again.

I'm sorry if I got you wrong. Okay, let me request simply: could you provide me with a peer review making any such "conclusive evidence" asserting that the brain controls our total consciousness? If that is still missing your point, please put me right.

viaro:

Were the things you were shown 'empirical evidence' for the non-existence of God and the supernatural?

No, but no body has ever shown me empirical evidence for the existence of God and the supernatural even when I was a theist. All the "evidence" that were presented to me were stories about god and the supernatural and not empirical evidence. Once i was provided with evidence to show that those stories  that were provided to me were false, I accepted and moved on.

Of course, your personal beliefs were subjective and could anyday be proven false; such would not therefore mean that that is conclusive evidence for the non-existence of God and the supernatural. I'm sorry to note that I cannot take your anecdotal claim as meaningful here, because there are many atheists who have become theistic believers independent of the atheistic cultures that were part of their experiences, did you ever think about that? Such things had nothing to do with whatever any society accepted or not, and your preference to not believe is just that: your choice - and it has nothing to do with 'empiricism'.

What anecdotal claim exactly? I was just trying to point out to you that I am not as close minded as you think. I have changed my mind based on the evidence and i can change my mind base on counter evidence too. Thats the point i was trying to make.

I asked you to answer me a simple question - was that hard?  
I wasn't asking you to split hairs over Hindus, Muslims, Scientologists, or flat earthers - my focus was specifically atheists who believe in spirits! Things that have to do with alien abduction have nothing to do with anyone's worldview in so far as alien abduction is not a belief system! You atheists make me laugh when you throw tantrums in the way you appeal to fallacies in your arguments.

I answered your question. Hinduism, Scientology and Islam are all believes, why dwell only on alien abduction . I know that there are atheist that believe in spiritualism. I have friends that are atheist but believe in some kind of spiritualism. How does their belief in spirituality give credence to spirituality? Does the belief of Scientologist give credence to Scientology?

Creation and Cosmology. Choose your poison and let's discuss philosophically., if you may.

We can discuss both, that is if you will agree to discuss it on a simple level that any body can understand.

That's okay - atheists are never able to handle philosophy anyways.

Not really, there are so many that do .

toneyb:

No, but no body has ever shown me empirical evidence for the existence of God and the supernatural even when I was a theist. All the "evidence" that were presented to me were stories about god and the supernatural and not empirical evidence. Once i was provided with evidence to show that those stories  that were provided to me were false, I accepted and moved on.

That's okay. I would say that from your anecdotal narration, none of what you were shown serves as 'empirical evidence' for the non-existence of God and the supernatural. Perhaps, the first thing you may need to sort is what you mean by 'empirical evidence', and maybe afterwards you may understand why your narration is quite faulty and does not serve the goal of what 'evidence' you're looking for. Could you do that?

What anecdotal claim exactly? I was just trying to point out to you that I am not as close minded as you think. I have changed my mind based on the evidence and i can change my mind base on counter evidence too. Thats the point i was trying to make.

Let's just say that on the personal level, I consider what you have narrated as anecdotal; that does not mean I saw you as one closed-minded chap, not at all.

I answered your question. Hinduism, Scientology and Islam are all believes, why dwell only on alien abduction .

You didn't answer my question; and it was not I who mentioned alien abduction in the first place. I don't see how that was helpful in your remarks when you should have noted that alien abduction is not a belief system.

I know that there are atheist that believe in spiritualism. I have friends that are atheist but believe in some kind of spiritualism. How does their belief in spirituality give credence to spirituality? Does the belief of Scientologist give credence to Scientology?

Uh, dude, read my lips: 'spirits'. I didn't ask you for spiritualism or spiritism.

We can discuss both, that is if you will agree to discuss it on a simple level that any body can understand.

I'm game - but my discussion will be purely philosophical (I said so earlier). It is of very little consequences to me if some of our readers may find philosophy not quite to their flavour.

Not really, there are so many that do .

Lol, okay - I won't say nada on that.

davidylan:

Neither does the atheist have any empirical evidence that God doesnt exist at all . . . infact the only argument the atheist has is that the theist has not provided God's home address to him.

The athiest disbelieves because he has not been provided empirical and good evidence to show that the assertions of the theist are true. How would you prove that there wasn't a fifty-foot tall gorilla living in your closet for 5 days?. . . . .  You would look up and down your closet, I guess, and even search your entire room and if you saw no gorilla, and no gorilla footprints, no gorrila smell and no great steaming piles of gorilla dung any where, you would say that there was no gorilla there. Would you have proved it? Yes, to any rational person's satisfaction. Believing in a god in the face of the complete lack of evidence for the existence of a god is like believing in that fifty-foot gorilla.  . . . . .

Believers have to keep making excuses all the time. . . . . .  They make excuses like ''She's an invisible gorilla." "When she hears you coming she hides behind the door or becomes invisible." "She's a Zen gorilla who knows how to move silently across the room." Of course none of these excuses are any more credible than the original claim, and a rational person can see that they are just ad hoc attempts to avoid admitting the obvious. No believer would ever consider making absurd excuses like this to try and save any other kind of disproved opinion, but religion encourages it: 'have faith' = 'make lots of excuses'.

So to sum up, can I prove there is no god?. . . . . Yes, in exactly the same way I can prove any other empirical statement  by presenting the physical evidence. Can I convince dedicated believers that there is no god?. . . .  No, because they will never accept that I have presented all the evidence, even though in any other field of enquiry they would happily accept the same type and amount of evidence as a convincing knock-down proof. God always gets special pleading all the time.

So religious believers are inherently inconsistent. But that's their problem, not mine.  . . . . .

Vairo, Whats up man? Hope you are good. . . .Best wishes as always. . . .

^^mazaje dude, viaro's doing good. Missed you around for a while, what's gwan? Be swell with good stuff.

-sigh- There's also a common phrase that believers use : you want evidence that god exists? can you see air? can you touch it? yet you believe it exists. L O L ! aaah !

Mikaela:

-sigh- There's also a common phrase that believers use : you want evidence that god exists? can you see air? can you touch it? yet you believe it exists. L O L ! aaah !

errr you might want to give place to the smarter atheists here . . . at least they can carry their own point of view without having to go running to wikipedia.

mazaje:

The athiest disbelieves because he has not been provided empirical and good evidence to show that the assertions of the theist are true.

So in short . . . atheism is purely an opposition to christianity right?

davidylan:

So in short . . . atheism is purely an opposition to christianity right?

No. Atheism is knowing d existence of God,but not wanting to accept him as their Lord,in other to be a freelance&not subjected under any1s control

davidylan:

errr you might want to give place to the smarter atheists here . . . at least they can carry their own point of view without having to go running to wikipedia. 

LOOL ! Says someone who's explanation for the existence of the sun is : God created it. LOL ! F[i]u[/i]ck out of here dude.

toba:

No. Atheism is knowing d existence of God,but not wanting to accept him as their Lord,in other to be a freelance&not subjected under any1s control

And you get this definition from?

Mikaela:



And you get this definition from?

From a confused atheist like u

Mikaela:

LOOL ! Says someone who's explanation for the existence of the sun is : God created it. LOL ! F[i]u[/i]ck out of here dude.

that's much better than your own explanation . . . "no idea".

The theist insists there is a God but can't prove it. The atheist insists there is no God but can't prove it either. Ojoro cancel. Why not just worship Lionel Messi? His last name is two letters short of "Messiah" and he has shown that he can do the impossible. If u need proof tune in to CL in 25mins and prepare to be saved. 

davidylan:

that's much better than your own explanation . . . "no idea".

Sometimes not knowing is better than claiming to know. Especially when what you claim has no sense !

toba:

From a confused atheist like u

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. OK !

Krayola:

The theist insists there is a God but can't prove it. The atheist insists there is no God but can't prove it either. Ojoro cancel. Why not just worship Lionel Messi? His last name is two letters short of "Messiah" and he has shown that he can do the impossible. If u need proof tune in to CL in 25mins and prepare to be saved. 

Completly agree. Which is why I don't see the need of debating creation. But pushing nerves is fun.

Mikaela:

Sometimes not knowing is better than claiming to know.

Which is why i wonder why the atheist . . . who knows nothing . . . spends so much time berating the God of the bible.

THE Gorilla moves in mysterious ways,

Krayola:

Why not just worship Lionel Messi? His last name is two letters short of "Messiah" and he has shown that he can do the impossible.

Oh gee me a break! Can you provide "empirical evidence" that Messi is two letters short of Messiah?


Sad that this thread has degenrated to such laughable terminus. Always happens. . always.

davidylan:

Which is why i wonder why the atheist . . . who knows nothing . . . spends so much time berating the God of the bible.

Just because you claim to know doesn't mean you do. So in fact, you're in the same boat as we are. Reality is hard huh?

viaro:

Oh gee me a break! Can you provide "empirical evidence" that Messi is two letters short of Messiah?


Sad that this thread has degenrated to such laughable terminus. Always happens. . always.

the atheists are always happy to bring it here . . . as soon as they run out of "prove that God . . ." they've got nothing else. they can only say "no idea" for so long.

Krayola:

The theist insists there is a God but can't prove it. The atheist insists there is no God but can't prove it either. Ojoro cancel. Why not just worship Lionel Messi? His last name is two letters short of "Messiah" and he has shown that he can do the impossible. If u need proof tune in to CL in 25mins and prepare to be saved.  

Thats a good statement when u look at it from an agnostic point of view but then the ball is in the court of the theist to prove what he believes. How do expect the athiest to disprove what cannot be proven?

manmustwac:

Thats a good statement when u look at it from an agnostic point of view but then the ball is in the court of the theist to prove what he believes. How do expect the athiest to disprove what cannot be proven?

not really. The theist is not under any obligation to prove that God exists. If the atheist believes he doesnt then by all means he shld move on with his life and leave the theist alone in peace.

manmustwac:

Thats a good statement when u look at it from an agnostic point of view but then the ball is in the court of the theist to prove what he believes.

The atheist believes there is no God - it is also in his courts to prove what he believes.

How do expect the athiest to disprove what cannot be proven?

Excuse me? Why has the atheist been shouting what he knows cannot be proven?

manmustwac:

Thats a good statement when u look at it from an agnostic point of view but then the ball is in the court of the theist to prove what he believes. How do expect the athiest to disprove what cannot be proven?

So both parties believe stuff they can't show to be true. What next. . . .?

viaro:

Oh gee me a break! Can you provide "empirical evidence" that Messi is two letters short of Messiah?

haha. Are u now a believer?

^^ that's not "empirical evidence". Please provide me with "peer review"!

Krayola:

So both parties believe stuff they can't show to be true. What next. . . .?

No way.Theist hav more realistic chance to show wot dey biliv unlike d atheist.Theist bilivs we re in a universe created by God&events dat occurs in d universe re cause by God i.e sun,moon,stars,day&night.Man&other mysterious things which science has no explanation on is caused by a superior mysterious being.I dnt think any1 could tell in a sperm where legs,arms,eyes,nose,intestine are situated dat when it enters into a womb,all these are formed&result into a living being.Theist are more realistic dan atheist

toba:

No way.Theist hav more realistic chance to show wot dey biliv unlike d atheist.Theist bilivs we re in a universe created by God&events dat occurs in d universe re cause by God i.e sun,moon,stars,day&night.Man&other mysterious things which science has no explanation on is caused by a superior mysterious being.I dnt think any1 could tell in a spermatozoa where legs,arms,eyes,nose,intestine are situated dat when it enters into a womb,all these are formed&result into a living being.Theist are more realistic dan atheist

Very interesting monsieur Toba. . . .

Now, proceed to prove God exists. . .

HOW many times will arguements like this crop?answer, eternally in perpetuity.
how many times will I sate dat God cannot be proved or disproved EMPHATICALLY BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT?why?

cuz God is not a being like we have been made to believe but a CONSCIOUSNESS .this is very easy If you consider dat
there is a NO religion dat can boast of having all the answers to every question there is on life and faith or even in thier holy books
.GOD is not s/tin to belief in
it is s/tin to BE , PERIOD.This is why his existence cannot be proven EMPHATICALLY BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT!

Krayola:

Very interesting monsieur Toba. . . .

Now, proceed to prove God exists. . .   

Empirical or no empirical,d wind blows&no1 hetherto knows where it comes from,Yet when it blows everythng light dances to its admiration.Not only light thngs,av seen a storm/wind pull down a very very firm building.This shows there must be a force more powerful that d wind obeys/propels d wind to blow.Until dat force says stop,d wind wouldnt.Now we read in d bible dat Jesus was journeying wit his disciples on a boat.He was fast asleep,suddenly a wind/storm came&almost overturn d boat.Jesus was woken&he immediately spoke to d wind&it ceased.Jesus demostrated force stronger dan d wind.So there exist a God d strong/light wind obeys