iamgenius:

Rather Jesus forsake himself since he's God.The sins which God took upon himself made Jesus to forsake his manifestation at the moment. It's still the same thing with yours abi? Since both Jesus and god are the same. Òpònú.

You can get it twisted all you want. That's what you islamists do.

iamgenius:


Did you hear yourself at all? You said Jesus is not a representation of God BUT GOD HIMSELF, and you are now saying JESUS IS NOT THE ENTIRE GID HIMSELF. Read what youwrite again and tell me if you made any sense.

If you say Jesus is part of God, now tell me God consist of how many parts?

Here is Wisdom to enlightenment.
The Godhead aka Trinity Consist of three DISTINCT personalities, The Father, The Holy Spirit, The Son.

These are called Elohim that is the plurality of "el". EL means God, while elohim means Gods.

Then Why are the three called God? the answer is simple. The three are:
+ Co-Ever existing - eternal
+ Co-equal - cooperative in equality and decisions
+ Co-immortal: will never die
+ many more

Consider these statements:
+ Let US make man in OUR own image; after OUR likeness - Gen1vs26
+ Let US go down Gen11vs7

Elementarily, the above involves more than one, personality with the use of plural US, OUR.

Am not expecting you to believed, but accept it as explanation, from their make more research

iamgenius:


Did you hear yourself at all? You said Jesus is not a representation of God BUT GOD HIMSELF, and you are now saying JESUS IS NOT THE ENTIRE GID HIMSELF. Read what youwrite again and tell me if you made any sense.

If you say Jesus is part of God, now tell me God consist of how many parts?

Three parts. Human created in Gods image, therefore human also has three parts. I asked you a question about this long ago but you have not answered the two questions ? ?

Emusan:


Jesus is not a representation of God but God Himself as The Word of God!

This doesn't mean Jesus is the entire God Himself.

Why most people do confuse the term of God for Jesus is because they don't understand it's about NATURE.

GOD is the Father (who wills everything to be)
GOD is the Word (who spoke everything into being)
GOD is the Spirit (who makes things to be/expression of Power)

shadeyinka:


GOD is the Father (who wills everything to be)
GOD is the Word (who spoke everything into being)
GOD is the Spirit (who makes things to be/expression of Power)

You are saying something else, are u claiming Jesus is not God? I pity you.

iamgenius:
You are saying something else, are u claiming Jesus is not God? I pity you.

...and the Word became Flesh!


John 1:14
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.


GOD is the Father (who wills everything to be)
GOD is the Word (who spoke everything into being)
GOD is the Spirit (who makes things to be/expression of Power)

shadeyinka:


...and the Word became Flesh!


John 1:14
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Jesus is also God himself.

iamgenius:

Jesus is also God himself.

Colossians 1:15-22
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him . 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

alBHAGDADI:

WHERE AND HOW DID JESUS CLAIM TO BE GOD? 1. Who is the "First and the Last"?[/b]Let's start by quoting the Quran [b]Sura 57:3He is the FIRST and the LAST, and the Outward (His signs appear on all His creatures) and the Inward (Hidden). And He is the All-Knower of everything.[/b]Now let's read from the Old Testament [b]Isaiah 44:6
New International Version
"This is what the LORD says-- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the FIRST and I am the LAST; apart from me there is no God.[/b]Since both the Quran and the Bible agree that God is the First and the Last, should a prophet refer to himself as such? But that is what Jesus Christ did in the verse below. [b]Revelations 1:17-18When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the FIRST and the LAST. I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

There's a mainly 3 problems that I want you to examine with this Revelations verse.

1. Did Jesus himself make this statement in reality or was it narrated as a vision?

2. Who narrated the vision and who wrote it down?

3. When was it written down and how was it compiled?

Rilwayne001:


There's a mainly 3 problems that I want you to examine with this Revelations verse.

1. Did Jesus himself make this statement in reality or was it narrated as a vision?

2. Who narrated the vision and who wrote it down?

3. When was it written down and how was it compiled?

You need to stop applying Islamic ways and terms to Christianity otherwise you will never understand it.


1. Jesus Christ made the Statement himself when he spoke to apostle John on the island of Patmos were revelations of things to come were given to him by Jesus Christ. He appeared to John in a magnificent way.

2. The particular encounter in the verse you are referring to was not a vision of a witnessed reality. It was witnessed by John who saw and heard Jesus speak this words "I am the First and the Last".

3. It was written down during the lifetime of John and by him.

Read Revelations Chapter 1

below is an excerpt

Revelations 1:17-19

17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.

18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

19 "Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.

Op , If Jesus did not object to people calling him God and worshipping him here on earth b4 his death , the question " show me in the Bible where Jesus said I am God worhip me ", is irrelevant.

A son of God is God just like you cannot say a lion is not a lion because it was giving birth to .

Matthew 14:33 KJV
Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

They worshipped him because he is the Son of God Almighty. Son of God is God.

John 5:17-26 KJV
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
[18] Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
[19] Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
[20] For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
[21] For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them ; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
[22] For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
[23] That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

You don't force people to respect you , you earn it . Jesus did not need to say " worship me " , by his deeds and works they bowed and worshipped him voluntarily as per Matt 14 : 33 .

alBHAGDADI:


You need to stop applying Islamic ways and terms to Christianity otherwise you will never understand it.

Kindly tell, what Islamic ways and terms did I apply in my questions?

Jesus Christ made the Statement himself when he spoke to apostle John on the island of Patmos were revelations of things to come were given to him by Jesus Christ. He appeared to John in a magnificent way.

When did he appear to John and made the statement? Before or after crucifixion? Take note that Early Church tradition dates the book to AD 81–96; that is approximately 90years after Jesus. Even so, the writer of this book is still unknown for certain. Why then should we believe that the unknown writer of this book indeed saw Jesus?

2. The particular encounter in the verse you are referring to was not a vision of a witnessed reality. It was witnessed by John who saw and heard Jesus speak this words "I am the First and the Last".

How can you say it was not in a vision when we have it written boldly in the first verse that
1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John , ??

Again in chapter 10: On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, 11 which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches:

He was in the Spirit he said, what does it mean to SEE things in the SPIRIT?

3. It was written down during the lifetime of John and by him.

You need to provide concrete prove for which John was it that wrote it and not just make unsubstantiated claim as you did above. Except of the 2nd century scholars that believe it to be john, modern scholars generally takes a different view, and many consider that nothing can be known about the author except that he was a Christian prophet. Some modern scholars characterise Revelation's author as a putative figure whom they call "John of Patmos". The bulk of traditional sources date the book to the reign of the emperor Domitian (AD 81–96), and the evidence tends to confirm this
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation#CITEREFBauckham1992

Read Revelations Chapter 1below is an excerptRevelations 1:17-1917 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.19 "Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.

Before jumping to 17, verse 10 is very clear that he was seeing a vision as he was supposedly in the spirit. Stop making this seem like it happened in reality.

Rilwayne001:


Kindly tell, what Islamic ways and terms did I apply in my questions?

Islam came about and was documented in a certain way. The moment you start expecting Christian to conform to that standard is the moment you get confused about Christianity. First see Christianity as something else that is what it is and not in conformation to other religions.

You'll understand what I mean as we progress.

Rilwayne001:

When did he appear to John and made the statement? Before or after crucifixion? Take note that Early Church tradition dates the book to AD 81–96; that is approximately 90years after Jesus. Even so, the writer of this book is still unknown for certain. Why then should we believe that the unknown writer of this book indeed saw Jesus?

Here you are doing what you claiming on the other thread that you no more do - trying to discredit the Bible so that you won't have to face the truth therein. Muslims need to stop doing this and face the content.

I see that you've been reading Wikipedia as if it is a reliable source. Do you know you can edit Wikipedia?

Reading the entire chapter should enable anyone know that it was years after his resurrection and ascension.

The dating by the early church doesn't mean it is hundred percent correct about the date. Moreover, it could be possible cos apostle John was the only one out of the 12 disciples that lived long. He wasn't killed like the others.

I believe the Wikipedia page you read had it that the early church knew it was Apostle John and that those that have doubts are the modern ones. Now tell me, which of these generations was close to the period?

The writer saw Jesus and what he recorded in the book are beginning to happen. But a blind Muslim won't know. The unfolding prophecies are enough proof that they could have come from a high source. Guess what? Majority of the prophecies are about Islam which will produce the Antichrist beast. That's an argument for another thread.

You have the effrontery to ask why we should believe the writer saw Jesus?

Why should we believe Mohammad saw angel Gabriel? Why should we believe it was even angel Gabriel he saw when it was warakah that didn't witness the encounter that told him the name of the entity?

You can't believe the bible yet you believe an absurd Islamic write up?

Rilwayne001:

How can you say it was not in a vision when we have it written boldly in the first verse that
1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John

That was his encounter with an angel which was recorded in the previous verses. Later verses show he met Jesus physically and not via vision, otherwise he won't have bowed.

Rilwayne001:

Again in chapter 10: On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, 11 which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches:

He was in spirit doesn't translate to mean he saw a vision. Understand English.

Rilwayne001:

He was in the Spirit he said, what does it mean to SEE things in the SPIRIT?

He didn't say he saw things in spirit. He was simply in a spiritual mood. Praying is being in a spiritual mood.

Singing praises is also being in a spiritual mood. I can see that you are trying to twist words so as to render the truth useless. The truth can't be bent to conform to your shenanigans. Face it or leave it.

Rilwayne001:

You need to provide concrete prove for which John was it that wrote it and not just make unsubstantiated claim as you did above. Except of the 2nd century scholars that believe it to be john, modern scholars generally takes a different view, and many consider that nothing can be known about the author except that he was a Christian prophet. Some modern scholars characterise Revelation's author as a putative figure whom they call "John of Patmos". The bulk of traditional sources date the book to the reign of the emperor Domitian (AD 81–96), and the evidence tends to confirm this
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation#CITEREFBauckham1992

Stop copying Wikipedia cos it is not a Christian source.


Why do you need a concrete proof? What does it matter which John wrote the book? Why discredit the early church and scholars who had a closer relationship with the writer only to believe modern scholars who are weak in spirit and have no real connection to the writer?
.You chose to believe them cos their talk appeals to your confusion. You are ready to grab hold on to anything that can prevent you from facing the real truth that Jesus claim and proved that he is God. He used terms that can only be used by God.

Rilwayne001:

Before jumping to 17, verse 10 is very clear that he was seeing a vision as he was supposedly in the spirit. Stop making this seem like it happened in reality.

He said he was in spirit and not seeing a vision. I explained was being in the spirit means.

Check all Bible translations, none of them wrote vision. They all stated that he was in spirit. Saying it was a vision is to take away the meaning.

If you had read further, which is believe you did, you would have seen that he heard Jesus voice, saw him and even bowed to him. You don't do that in a vision. In a vision, you only see things to happen, you don't act like you will in the physical.

Only a mischievous person will mistaken the verses below for a vision instead of reality.

Revelations 1:10-20

10 On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet,

11 which said: "Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea."

12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,

13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.

14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.

15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.

16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.

18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

19 "Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.

20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

Anyone seeing this long reply of yours now will think you have meaningful things stocked in it, when in fact it's all a repetition of garbage.

alBHAGDADI:
Islam came about and was documented in a certain way.

Tell us how it was documented and how I'm trying to force the same way for the Bible. I doubt you even know how what we have today as the Bible was compiled in about 400years after Jesus. How they decided to add books that suit their desire and throw away the ones that they don't like.

The moment you start expecting Christian to conform to that standard is the moment you get confused about Christianity. First see Christianity as something else that is what it is and not in conformation to other religions.

Why are you scared to attempt the 'problem with the gospel'?

Here you are doing what you claiming on the other thread that you no more do - trying to discredit the Bible so that you won't have to face the truth therein. Muslims need to stop doing this and face the content.

Is the writer know for certain?
Was the book written less than 70years after Jesus?

How does asking these^ questions make me shy away from the truth?

I see that you've been reading Wikipedia as if it is a reliable source. Do you know you can edit Wikipedia?

I made sure the Wikipedia page I quote had a substantial reference, this is different from just quoting a link blindly. You on the other hand you did bother to go through the link to check the reference beneath the page.

In so far a Wikipedia article has a reference for every point in it, why should we disregard it?

Reading the entire chapter should enable anyone know that it was years after his resurrection and ascension.

Apparently.

The dating by the early church doesn't mean it is hundred percent correct about the date.

Interesting. What is correct then? Or better yet, what is your own believe pertaining to this? What about other books of the new testament?

Moreover, it could be possible cos apostle John was the only one out of the 12 disciples that lived long. He wasn't killed like the others.

Obviously.

I believe the Wikipedia page you read had it that the early church knew it was Apostle John and that those that have doubts are the modern ones. Now tell me, which of these generations was close to the period?

The early church is more likely to believe it was John the apostle, basically because the text names the writer as a “John” who lived on the island of Patmos due to “tribulation” and testimony to Jesus Christ, indicating he was in forced exile. Even so, at no where didn't it say it was John the apostle, which give rise for another question, ie which John? But, as with many biblical questions, the situation is complicated. The 3rd Century Bishop Dionysius, ruled out the apostle due to the book’s character, thought, language, construction, and rough Greek idioms and grammar which is what modern literary critics agree to.

The writer saw Jesus and what he recorded in the book are beginning to happen. But a blind Muslim won't know. The unfolding prophecies are enough proof that they could have come from a high source. Guess what? Majority of the prophecies are about Islam which will produce the Antichrist beast. That's an argument for another thread..

Nonsense.

You have the effrontery to ask why we should believe the writer saw Jesus?

In the first place, the question should be, who was the writer and why should we believe him. We have to establish who wrote it first before we can ask what he saw. Besides, he said he saw things in spirit, otherwise, vision. Why should we believe?

Why should we believe Mohammad saw angel Gabriel? Why should we believe it was even angel Gabriel he saw when it was warakah that didn't witness the encounter that told him the name of the entity?

Hahahaha. I see what you are trying to do here, but seriously, you can't eat your cake and have it.

Muhammad (PBUH) himself saw it and narrated what he saw. It's a different case in Revelations.

That was his encounter with an angel which was recorded in the previous verses. Later verses show he met Jesus physically and not via vision, otherwise he won't have bowed. He was in spirit doesn't translate to mean he saw a vision. Understand English.

Help me understand English please, what does it mean to be SEEING things in SPIRIT?

He didn't say he saw things in spirit. He was simply in a spiritual mood. Praying is being in a spiritual mood.

Verse 11 said he should write down what he SEE

Stop copying Wikipedia cos it is not a Christian source.

This is what I got from a Christian source: One day in about the year 95 A.D., a man named John had a vision from heaven. The book of Revelation is John's record of that vision (Revelation 1:9-11).
http://www.christianbiblereference.org/faq_Revelation.htm

Revelation 1:9-18New International Version (NIV)

John’s Vision of Christ
9 I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+1%3A9-18

Rilwayne001:
Anyone seeing this long reply of yours now will think you have meaningful things stocked in it, when in fact it's all a repetition of garbage.


Tell us how it was documented and how I'm trying to force the same way for the Bible. I doubt you even know how what we have today as the Bible was compiled in about 400years after Jesus. How they decided to add books that suit their desire and throw away the ones that they don't like.


Why are you scared to attempt the 'problem with the gospel'?



Is the writer know for certain?
Was the book written less than 70years after Jesus?

How does asking these^ questions make me shy away from the truth?



I made sure the Wikipedia page I quote had a substantial reference, this is different from just quoting a link blindly. You on the other hand you did bother to go through the link to check the reference beneath the page.

In so far a Wikipedia article has a reference for every point in it, why should we disregard it?


Apparently.



Interesting. What is correct then? Or better yet, what is your own believe pertaining to this? What about other books of the new testament?


Obviously.


The early church is more likely to believe it was John the apostle, basically because the text names the writer as a “John” who lived on the island of Patmos due to “tribulation” and testimony to Jesus Christ, indicating he was in forced exile. Even so, at no where didn't it say it was John the apostle, which give rise for another question, ie which John? But, as with many biblical questions, the situation is complicated. The 3rd Century Bishop Dionysius, ruled out the apostle due to the book’s character, thought, language, construction, and rough Greek idioms and grammar which is what modern literary critics agree to.

Wow!

Discredit the book so that you won't t have to accept the truth therein. That's exactly what Muslims do. Isn't this the same tactics used when they say the Bible is corrupt?

Of what use to the topic of discuss is the writer? Whether it was Apostle John or some other John, it shouldn't be a discussion here other than the points raised.

Same way you Muslims discredit Paul cos his books judged Islam is the same way you are trying to discredit the book of revelations because it clearly spells out the truth which is against an Islamic belief.

Since I showed you that the account is not a vision but a real encounter, you have moved from trying to label it a mere vision . Now you want to call the writer to question when you really ought to face the content. It's like attacking the messenger instead of addressing the message. That is what corrupt and deceitful people do. Look closely and you will see that that is what you are doing.

Same thing Muslims do when you confront them with an hadith that ridicules or exposes their lies. They quickly label such a weak hadith.

I'm talking about what the early church believe in but you are here talking about modern scholars who are miles away from those that witnessed and found the book.

Forget about arguing about the writer. Focus on the message. I guess you can't that's why you rather attack the messenger instead of the message.

I think the next move will be to discredit the other books where I quoted verses from.

Face the message cos you lack reasonable evidence to discredit the writer. It makes no sense. What matters is that a John got the revelations and passed it on to the Church.

Rilwayne001:


Nonsense.



In the first place, the question should be, who was the writer and why should we believe him. We have to establish who wrote it first before we can ask what he saw. Besides, he said he saw things in spirit, otherwise, vision. Why should we believe?

It will always be nonsense to Muslims cos they are hiding from the truth and don't know how a book written over 700 years could be so accurate in judging their own religion.

The writer was John and you should believe him cos his account are not only happening today but are heavily linked and in accordance to past scriptures.

It has been established that a man named John wrote it. Whether apostle John or not, what matters is that it was a John. Someone can come from nowhere and say it was a different John, it still won't take away the message.

Believe him cos his words are accurately happening and have harmony with past scriptures. But a Muslim won't believe him cos he wrote that Jesus is God.

He didn't say he saw things in the Spirit. He said he was in spirit. Most especially, he had an encounter with Jesus himself.

Rilwayne001:

Hahahaha. I see what you are trying to do here, but seriously, you can't eat your cake and have it.

Muhammad (PBUH) himself saw it and narratedwhat he saw. It's a different case in Revelations.

Who was there to witness what he saw? When he was reciting, who else saw the angel giving him the incantations?

You belief a rapist, terrorist, murderer and pedophile's account, yet you find it hard to believe a man named John?

Rilwayne001:

Help me understand English please, what does it mean to be SEEING things in SPIRIT?



Verse 11 said he should write down what he SEE

He didn't say he was seeing things in spirit. He was simply in spirit when he heard a voice speak to him to write what he will be shown. Verse 12 said he turned around to see who was speaking to him telling him to write things down. That was when he saw Jesus. I now wonder how you managed to see that as a vision and not reality.

Rilwayne001:

This is what I got from a Christian source: One day in about the year 95 A.D., a man named John had a vision from heaven. The book of Revelation is John's record of that vision (Revelation 1:9-11).
http://www.christianbiblereference.org/faq_Revelation.htm

Revelation 1:9-18New International Version (NIV)

John’s Vision of Christ
9 I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+1%3A9-18

Yes, john had visions but he also had encounters too.

The reason we are arguing about John is simply because you are trying to turn his physical encounter with Jesus into a vision. His encounter with Jesus wasn't a vision cos he saw him, described the event and even bowed down to Jesus. Who bows down in a vision?

Pls, attack the message and not the messenger.

alBHAGDADI:


It is common these days to see people posing a question to Christians on social media and even in debates with the question always in one same manner. The question usually comes from Atheists, Jews, Muslims and even heretic Christians. They wonder why we see Jesus as God and worship him.

So they ask "Show me Where Jesus said "I am God worship me?" in those exact words.

You might become confused at this moment if you are not smart. Yes, you know you can't find anywhere in the Bible where Jesus said such in those exact words, so you might be quick to quote some classical verses that show Jesus Christ is God.

Well, the person asking that question has been trained in such a way that no matter the amount of verses you quote, he won't believe you unless you show him where Jesus said "I am God worship me" in those exact words. Now he has boxed you in the "exact words" corner. The only way you can get out is to pull him into the corner to make him see how stupid it is dealing with exact words. I bet you, he will be the one to open the door for the both of you to leave the corner once he realises how stupid it is. How do you do that? You flip the question back at him. You say...

"I'll be willing to show where Jesus said 'I am God worship me' in those exact words only if you can show me where he said 'I am only a prophet, do not worship me' in those exact same words. At that moment, he will start to realise the error of requesting for exact same words. To stamp it on him, if he's a Muslim that believes according to the Quran that Jesus was born of a virgin, then ask him to show you in the Quran or Bible where Jesus said "I am born of a virgin" in those exact same words. If he can't, then it means his belief that Jesus was born of a virgin is false.

The idea behind the above is to ensure you are not dealing with exact words. If the Jew, atheist, Muslim or heretic Christian can't show you anywhere in the Bible or Quran or any book where Jesus said these exact words "I am only a prophet, do not worship me" or "I am born of a virgin", then it means he shouldn't require of you to show him where Jesus said the exact same words "I am God worship me".

Once you have passed that, you can now ask a more reasonable question.

WHERE AND HOW DID JESUS CLAIM TO BE GOD?

According to the Jews, Christians and Muslims, there are certain claims only God can make. All 3 religious beliefs hold the same view about God in that regard. That is why I am going to use the Old Testament, the New Testament and the Quran to see if Jesus made claims that only God can make.

1. Who is the "First and the Last"?

Let's start by quoting the Quran

Sura 57:3
He is the FIRST and the LAST, and the Outward (His signs appear on all His creatures) and the Inward (Hidden). And He is the All-Knower of everything.

Now let's read from the Old Testament

Isaiah 44:6
New International Version
"This is what the LORD says-- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the FIRST and I am the LAST; apart from me there is no God.

Since both the Quran and the Bible agree that God is the First and the Last, should a prophet refer to himself as such? But that is what Jesus Christ did in the verse below.

Revelations 1:17-18
When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the FIRST and the LAST. I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Can you tell us what Jesus meant when he took a title that can only be applied to God and applied it to himself? If he wasn't claiming to be God, then what was he doing?

coach master just look at yourself. your life,death and salvation depends in the oneness of God as it was brought by the Moses as well as all other prophet of God which Jesus affirmed to this fist of the all commandment, now you are here brain washing your fellows to accept Jesus who eat and drank as your Lord and savior hook line and sinker even when the subject rejected that heavy title,

Qur'an said In the name of God, the Gracious, the Merciful.
1. Say, “He is God, the One.
2. God, the Absolute.
3. He begets not, nor was He begotten.
4. And there is nothing comparable to Him.”

Now my advise to you is to accept Jesus as prophet of God and accept Muhammad as prophet and only God deserved to be worshiped, He shall never share His glory with anybody including Jesus.

smoy:
coach master just look at yourself. your life,death and salvation depends in the oneness of God as it was brought by the Moses as well as all other prophet of God which Jesus affirmed to this fist of the all commandment, now you are here brain washing your fellows to accept Jesus who eat and drank as your Lord and savior hook line and sinker even when the subject rejected that heavy title,

Qur'an said In the name of God, the Gracious, the Merciful.
1. Say, “He is God, the One.
2. God, the Absolute.
3. He begets not, nor was He begotten.
4. And there is nothing comparable to Him.”

Now my advise to you is to accept Jesus as prophet of God and accept Muhammad as prophet and only God deserved to be worshiped, He shall never share His glory with anybody including Jesus.

Didn't my post just proved to you that Jesus is worthy of worship?

Muhammad is dead and tottered in Saudi Arabia.

Kindly refute the evidences I laid on this post, instead of stamping creeds on me.

Thumps up op.

I just saw this now great work.

Only the weak christian get tossed into a corner while talking to a non-believer.

The Holy Spirit gives one utterance when face with such questions

king Agrippa couldn't help himself after listening to Paul

Neither could the Jews help themselves after listening to steven

The scribes and lawyers couldn't help themselves after Jesus' epic reply on whether to pay tax to Caesar or not

They all result to violence and rage in the end, as they couldn't bring themselves to aligned with the knowledge of the truth or perhaps couldn't comprehend the dept of the truth, hence the fall out

so don't be surprise if u encounter such while debating/explaining to a non-believer

smoy:
coach master just look at yourself. your life,death and salvation depends in the oneness of God as it was brought by the Moses as well as all other prophet of God which Jesus affirmed to this fist of the all commandment, now you are here brain washing your fellows to accept Jesus who eat and drank as your Lord and savior hook line and sinker even when the subject rejected that heavy title,

Qur'an said In the name of God, the Gracious, the Merciful.
1. Say, “He is God, the One.
2. God, the Absolute.
3. He begets not, nor was He begotten.
4. And there is nothing comparable to Him.”

Now my advise to you is to accept Jesus as prophet of God and accept Muhammad as prophet and only God deserved to be worshiped, He shall never share His glory with anybody including Jesus.

Who is the god of the muslim ?
Muhammed was the prophet of allah not the prophet of the righteous God of the Christians.

Allah is not God Almighty but god of the idol worshippers :

Volume 1, Book 1, Number 3:

Bukhari
Narrated 'Aisha:

..................
The Prophet added, "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, 'I do not know how to read.' Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, 'I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?' Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists) has created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous." (96.1, 96.2, 96.3) Then Allah's Apostle returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely. Then he went to Khadija bint Khuwailid and said, "Cover me! Cover me!" They covered him till his fear was over and after that he told her everything that had happened and said, "I fear that something may happen to me." Khadija replied, "Never! By Allah, Allah will never disgrace you.

Was Khadija not a pagan ? A pagan worships his or her idol by the name of their gods or idol.

Idol worshipper b4 muhammed used to perform . The muslims do so now.

They used to Tawaf , the muslims do likewise.

They used to throw stones at Satan , the muslim do the same.

They used to kiss the meteorites or black stone , the muslims do so now.

Islam retained many aspects of pagan religion in the name of one god .

Why is allah related to allat, the goddess idol , in name?

Allah SWT says:

أَفَرَءَيْتُمُ اللّٰتَ وَالْعُزّٰى
"So have you considered al-Lat and al-'Uzza?"
(QS. An-Najm: Verse 19)
وَمَنٰوةَ الثَّالِثَةَ الْأُخْرٰىٓ
"And Manat, the third - the other one?"
(QS. An-Najm: Verse 20)

أَلَكُمُ الذَّكَرُ وَلَهُ الْأُنْثٰى
"Is the male for you and for Him the female?"
(QS. An-Najm: Verse 21)
* Via the Beautiful Qur'an https:///QLwc8B
تِلْكَ إِذًا قِسْمَةٌ ضِيزٰىٓ
"That, then, is an unjust division."
(QS. An-Najm: Verse 22)


Volume 2, Book 15, Number 72:
Bukhari
Narrated Aisha:

Abu Bakr came to my house while two small Ansari girls were singing beside me the stories of the Ansar concerning the Day of Buath. And they were not singers. Abu Bakr said protestingly, "Musical instruments of Satan in the house of Allah's Apostle !" It happened on the 'Id day and Allah's Apostle said, "O Abu Bakr! There is an 'Id for every nation and this is our 'Id."

Their Id is satanic worshipping.

The god of the muslims is residing in the kabaah .

enilove:



Who is the god of the muslim ?
Muhammed was the prophet of allah not the prophet of the righteous God of the Christians.

Allah is not God Almighty but god of the idol worshippers :

Volume 1, Book 1, Number 3:

Bukhari
Narrated 'Aisha:

..................
The Prophet added, "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, 'I do not know how to read.' Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, 'I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?' Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists) has created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous." (96.1, 96.2, 96.3) Then Allah's Apostle returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely. Then he went to Khadija bint Khuwailid and said, "Cover me! Cover me!" They covered him till his fear was over and after that he told her everything that had happened and said, "I fear that something may happen to me." Khadija replied, "Never! By Allah, Allah will never disgrace you.

Was Khadija not a pagan ? A pagan worships his or her idol by the name of their gods or idol.

Idol worshipper b4 muhammed used to perform . The muslims do so now.

They used to Tawaf , the muslims do likewise.

They used to throw stones at Satan , the muslim do the same.

They used to kiss the meteorites or black stone , the muslims do so now.

Islam retained many aspects of pagan religion in the name of one god .

Why is allah related to allat, the goddess idol , in name?

Allah SWT says:

أَفَرَءَيْتُمُ اللّٰتَ وَالْعُزّٰى
"So have you considered al-Lat and al-'Uzza?"
(QS. An-Najm: Verse 19)
وَمَنٰوةَ الثَّالِثَةَ الْأُخْرٰىٓ
"And Manat, the third - the other one?"
(QS. An-Najm: Verse 20)

أَلَكُمُ الذَّكَرُ وَلَهُ الْأُنْثٰى
"Is the male for you and for Him the female?"
(QS. An-Najm: Verse 21)
* Via the Beautiful Qur'an https:///QLwc8B
تِلْكَ إِذًا قِسْمَةٌ ضِيزٰىٓ
"That, then, is an unjust division."
(QS. An-Najm: Verse 22)


Volume 2, Book 15, Number 72:
Bukhari
Narrated Aisha:

Abu Bakr came to my house while two small Ansari girls were singing beside me the stories of the Ansar concerning the Day of Buath. And they were not singers. Abu Bakr said protestingly, "Musical instruments of Satan in the house of Allah's Apostle !" It happened on the 'Id day and Allah's Apostle said, "O Abu Bakr! There is an 'Id for every nation and this is our 'Id."

Their Id is satanic worshipping.

The god of the muslims is residing in the kabaah .

but this is not the topic baba.

alBHAGDADI:
Didn't my post just proved to you that Jesus is worthy of worship?

Muhammad is dead and tottered in Saudi Arabia.

Kindly refute the evidences I laid on this post, instead of stamping creeds on me.

now you the coach, show me where Jesus said I Am Lord or Worship Me? he never say so and can never say so.

smoy:
now you the coach, show me where Jesus said I Am Lord or Worship Me? he never say so and can never say so.

It is now clear you didn't read my post.

Now vamoose!

alBHAGDADI:
It is now clear you didn't read my post.

Now vamoose!

ok, and its now clear that Jesus did never said He was God or worship Him, He was not more than a prophet of God. believe this for your salvation bro.

Rilwayne001 where are you?

Did you runaway?

alBHAGDADI:
Rilwayne001 where are you?

Did you runaway?

Lmao. Why would I run away from you?

You didn't understand the angle from which I'm arguing from and you are not even ready to, why should I continue wasting my time with you then?

alBHAGDADI:

2. Who can forgive sins?

Jews, christians and Muslims all believers that it is only God that can forgive sins. We see that in the Quran verse below

Sura (3:135) These are the ones who, when they commit any indecency and wrong against themselves, instantly remember Allah and implore forgiveness for their sins - for who will forgive sins save Allah? - and who do not wilfully persist in the wrong they did.

Now, if it is only God that can forgive sins, should a mere Prophet claim to forgive sins also? In the Bible verse below, we see the religious leaders startled when Jesus forgave the sins of a crippled man. They were startled cos they knew it is only God that can do such, so they said he was blaspheming. Jesus made it clear to them that a mere human can open his mouth to say I forgive you of your sin, but only a God can forgive you and restore what your sin deprived you of.

Mark 2:5-12
When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”
Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves,
“Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, “Why are you thinking these things? Which is easier: to say to this paralyzed man, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, take your mat and walk’? But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the man, “I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.” He got up, took his mat and walked out in full view of them all. This amazed everyone and they praised God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this!”

You see Jesus forgave sins, something the Quran says only God has the authority to do. Isn't this Jesus showing that he is God

You need to deal with this first:

Matthew 9:1-8
(1) Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town.
(2) Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.”
(3) At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, “This fellow is blaspheming!”
(4) Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts?
(5) Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’?
(6) But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins ….” Then he said to the paralytic, “Get up, take your mat and go home.”
(7) And the man got up and went home.
( When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised GOD, who had given such authority to men.

Is it possible to have been given what you have?

Rilwayne001:

You need to deal with this first:
Matthew 9:1-8
(1) Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town.
(2) Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.”
(3) At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, “This fellow is blaspheming!”
(4) Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts?
(5) Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’?
(6) But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins ….” Then he said to the paralytic, “Get up, take your mat and go home.”
(7) And the man got up and went home.
( When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised GOD, who had given such authority to men.
Is it possible to have been given what you have?

Are you saying you believe the Quran?

Rilwayne001:


You need to deal with this first:

Matthew 9:1-8
(1) Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town.
(2) Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.”
(3) At this, some of the teachers of the law said to themselves, “This fellow is blaspheming!”
(4) Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts?
(5) Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’?
(6) But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins ….” Then he said to the paralytic, “Get up, take your mat and go home.”
(7) And the man got up and went home.
( When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised GOD, who had given such authority to men.

Is it possible to have been given what you have?

You are very funny.


Your last underlined sentence is the thoughts of the people around, many of whom didn't know of Jesus deity. That was why they made that statement.

Moreover, Jesus was fully man and fully divine on earth.

If you say God gave him the authority to forgive sins just as the people thought (which he didn't say), then don't you think God was giving him His own responsibility? Why was Jesus so special that God gave him that much power to do things only He Can do?

Even the verse you quoted showed that some of the people said he was blaspheming when he forgave the man's sins. They knew only God can make such statement.

Now, why would God give man such authority when it is clear that many will see that to mean such a person is God?

That was God's aim.

.The God of the Bible is not like Allah whom the Quran said deceived people into thinking Jesus was killed, whereas he wasn't; Allah lifted him up to heaven. That single account shows Allah messed up cos his action of deceiving the people led to the creation of Christianity, the biggest and only peaceful religion today.

alBHAGDADI:

lalasticlala please move this to front page so as to educate my Christian brothers.

Thank you

lalasticlala won't move it because they are all hypocrite, both seun and his co worker, they claim to be atheist but there job is to only attack Christianity.

They go into extent that cannot hide there hypocrisy again so they create a special section for they evil counterpart.

They block me because i reply one dumb being that think he know a lot about Christianity, they lack religion tolerance but can't stop criticising other religion.

Seun or whatever your name, let me remind you that your day are number. Shame

alBHAGDADI:
You are very funny.


Your last underlined sentence is the thoughts of the people around, many of whom didn't know of Jesus deity. That was why they made that statement.

Moreover, Jesus was fully man and fully divine on earth.

If you say God gave him the authority to forgive sins just as the people thought (which he didn't say),

Mathew 28:18
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.